Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1886 => Topic started by: King Medallion on April 16, 2017, 05:35:19 PM
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How about sharing your favorite loads for your 1886?
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62 grs FFg/Lyman 457125 520 RN
36 grs Varget/Lyman 457193/420 gr RNFP
36 grs Varget/RCBS 350 gr RNFP
28 grs 5744 with either bullet.
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I started back in '68 with 58 grains of 3031 and have never changed. That is under a Hornady 300 grain flat nose hollow point. Flat does the job and has for all these years. No need to change.
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52g of OE 1.5 o2f, BACO .379, 260g bullet cast with 20-1 lead tin alloy. Runs a little under 1500 fps. 2 1/4" groups at 200yds with a peep site shooting from a rest.
wM1
PS Original Winchester Sporting rifle.
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Forgot to mention that my '86 is an original rifle. As one gun nut said when he saw it said that it is a "Hunters" rifle.
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It would be nice to see pic's of your rifles, Larryo1
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It depends on the application - hunting or steel. Lighter bullets under 400 grs tend to a lot less punishing to the shooter. These are the so called "Express" loads once available in 45-70 and 45-90.
I tried Paul Matthews loads in my first 45-70s and decided that I didn't enjoy getting the snot kicked out of me.
Moose are not that hard to kill as I found out with my 36 Varget/420 457193 load. Two shots, two dead moose. One literally dropping in it's tracks, t'other staggering fifty yards.
I use all the loads I mentioned above to hit steel out to 200m, and not from the bench; off hand and field positions. In the era, "hunting rifles" were generally not bench rested. That was the domain of the heavy "slug guns", generally muzzle loaders.
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I am interested in this posting also but it would be more useful if the reply would list the caliber that the load is being applied too. Not all 1886's were 45/70's.
Original Winchester 1886 calibers were 33wcf; 38/56; 38/70; 40/65; 40/70; 40/82; 45/70; 45/90 & 50/110.
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True, an assumption on our part, although the bullet weights mentioned ought to have been a clue for you. Most 86's we see at CAS events are in 45-70, as are the Browing/Pedersoli/Chiappa repros.
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PJ,
That is why I made the statement -- 'Not all 1886's were 45/70's'. It appeared as if the postings were for 45/70 but if everyone left out the caliber they are posting about, think about the possibilities for 'issues'.
Thanks
BRS
editted:
PS: My point is 45/70 was a 405 gr.. PJ lists a 520 and 350 is the 350 maybe a 40/70 330 gr original. Larryo1 lists a 300 gr does that represent the 45/90 original 300 gr. Wildman1 is the only one providing enough detail, by listing a 260 gr but he also added the diameter of 0.379 for a possible 38/56 or 38/70 near original 255 gr. but also lists 52 gr of powder used which would most likely be the 38/56 and states it is for an original.
Please just list the caliber.
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When you "assume", you make an ass out of "u" and an ass out of "me".
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I have developed a couple of smokeless loads that I use in my Miroku 1886 (45-70). Some of them were on the upper end of energy, most of which was transferred to my shoulder. I since backed them off to approximate BP velocities. Part of the reasoning is so that I can use them in either the '86 or my Pedersoli Sharps. The velocity readings below were taken with the Sharps, which has a 32" barrel. These should be well within pressure limits for a modern '86, but why should you trust me? You don't even know who I am. I may also be a bad typist and I might have typed loads that are downright dangerous. For those reasons, PLEASE double-check everything here before you trust your rifle and your life to what I've written.
The loads below use a Lyman 457193 bullet (415 grains), Winchester brass and CCI 200 LRP.
35 grains Alliant Reloder 7. 1366 fps
35 grains IMR 4198. 1427 fps.
I have had decent accuracy with these loads, but my main target usually ends up being tin cans. The 45-70 may be a bit of overkill, but it sure is fun!
CC Griff
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BRS you are correct it is a 38/56. The BACO mold is actually .380 but with the soft alloy casts at about.3795 and no I do not size them as the bore is a couple thou larger than that. As far as shooting it from the bench when developing loads I was interested in how accurate the rifle was not in how steady or unsteady I could be shooting from field positions or standing upright.
wM1
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King:
I have never been able to get PhotoShop for me worth a damn so slip me you e-address and I got a photo of all the '86's I got. My e-mail is revengngn6 @yahoo.com. One of them is a late '86 TakeDown in .33
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That I why I said it depends upon the application. The OP did not specify what calibre '86 he wanted load recommendations for.
Most could tell from the bullet weights suggested that we were referring to 45-70.
[quote author=Black River Smith link=topic=59128.msg705440#msg705440 date=1492473195My point is 45/70 was a 405 gr.. PJ lists a 520 and 350 is the 350 maybe a 40/70 330 gr original. Larryo1 lists a 300 gr does that represent the 45/90 original 300 gr. Wildman1 is the only one providing enough detail, by listing a 260 gr but he also added the diameter of 0.379 for a possible 38/56 or 38/70 near original 255 gr. but also lists 52 gr of powder used which would most likely be the 38/56 and states it is for an original.
[/quote]
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Mine is a Browning 1886 SRC, in 45-70. I didn't ask for loads specifically for myself, just for general use for all of us to share and use. :)
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My loads are very effective at killing tin cans. I've had them jump high in the air, but I've never had them run more than a few yards after being shot.
CC Griff
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I have made cans run. With my STEN!
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What might be considered a good "general use" load in a rifle length 45-70 '86 might be a tad much in a 45-70 SRC.
After a BPCR practice, one of our mob produced his Browning '86 SRC and was handed some 520 gr silhouette loads. He gamely single loaded them, firing five in succession.
He then put his head down on the bench and was silent. Finally, he was asked - "Hey, buddy, you alright?" He replied - "Yes, I'm just trying really hard not to cry."
In conversation with another SRC owner, he told me that he shot an elk with it and it was a one shot kill at an alleged 185 yds. But - practicing with it before the hunt developed a flinch that affected his BPCR shooting.
Mine is a Browning 1886 SRC, in 45-70. I didn't ask for loads specifically for myself, just for general use for all of us to share and use. :)
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I had a load like that some years ago, I don't remember what it was, but within the 86 range, not Ruger only range. Anyway, I shot 3 of them and disassembled the rest. I like my rifle and shoulder too much for loads that knock me back that much. I shoot for fun, not pain. ;D
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I thought I was on to a good post here as I am looking for a good load for my 1886 in 50/110, but there seems to be very little in the way of loads for this small cartridge, I cant even find dies for it, are there any other 50 caliber dies that can be used ? With care of course, and what is the best bullet weight for the very slow twist rate, all my moulds are for 650/750 gr bullets, (for other rifles), so I need a good 350gr flat nose mould for this 50/110 caliber cartridge ? Any constructive advice would be gratefully accepted .
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I have a book called "The Winchester Lever Legacy" by Clyde "Snooky" Williamson Published in 1988. It has loads for almost all 86, 92 and 94 cartridges. Mr Williamson was a friend of George Madis. He had access to lots of rifles. He loved to experiment. He also seems to have had almost unlimited time. He must have had a very understanding wife too. He gives smokeless loads together with velocity and photos of the targets. Some of his loads seem pretty hot. Lots of detail on each cartridge. I don't remember when or where I got the book. If someone has a specific request I can look it up with the disclaimer that it is not my data.
My own load for my 86 in 45-70 is simple. 330 grain Gould cast 20 to 1 with 72 grains of 2f. I shot some smokeless loads long ago but settled on that load.
Jthbjr
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I have that book also, great read, funny guy. He could have made a career out of writing. Seems he also had unlimited amount of deer to shoot at also.
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How about sharing your favorite loads for your 1886?
In my rebored M86 Lyman 385gr gas check bullet cast dead soft, sized .457, Lyman graphite lube, 20.0 grs SR 4759, NO wad or filler, using a Lyman tang sight it would put four into 1" and the fifth invariably out an inch or so. That was when I was young and had good eyes. I won many, many turkeys with it at our local club. Very pleasant to shoot with the rifle butt.
For hunting I used the same bullet with 55grs IMR 4831 (case full, cannot get too much in case) approx. 1500 fps. Deadly on both ends.
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I like 65 gr. of Swiss 1.5F with the Lyman 457193. That steps out at around 1300 fps, which is plenty for me. Speaking of 520gr bullets in light guns, many years ago I had half a box of heavy bullet BP 45-70 loads that I wanted to empty and only a Springfield carbine at the range. Being rather younger and more foolish than I am now, I went ahead and lit them off. Well.... to say they had a wallop would be putting it mildly. When I got back to my place, I had a bruise in my shoulder in the exact shape of a Springfield buttplate, complete with a distinct impression of the buttplate screw, and the screw slot. Never did that again!
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Starline 45/70 brass (so I dont get it mixed with my sharps ammo) -
6 grains 4227 on the primer - then 63 grains of FFFg - 40thou HDPE wad - 335 grain cast soft - loading book from my chrono box says 1548 FPS average with an extreme spread of 6FPS
or ....
6 grains 4227 - then 55 grains FFFg - 40 thou wad - 405 grain cast soft book says 1362 FPS average with ES = 7FPS
Rifle is Chiappa 1886 - weighs neat ten pounds so recoil is not a problem
(http://)
335 grain boolit on the left in the picture
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My experience dates back to the early 1990s when I had both a Browning 1886 and an original Winchester in 40-65 that was re-bored to 45-70 (the original bore was the proverbial sewer pipe of pitting and corrosion). I loaded the Lyman 457193, cast of 1-20 alloy, over 61g-62g of FFg GOEX (all that was available then). Brass was either Win or Rem. I had some of both.
I did quite a bit of research back then and found several references stating the standard for sporting rifles with iron sights was keeping all shots (group number not specified) inside 4" at 100 yards. That load would shoot 5 rounds to that standard of accuracy from both of my '86s. This was with the barrel mounted buck-horn rear sight and blade front. I was not shooting a tuned or set-trigger on either gun. If memory serves the Browning rifle had a 26" barrel while the re-bored original Winchester had a non-standard 24" barrel.
Dave
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For all of you:
I have a 45-90 and a Marlin 45-70 also a 40-82.All rifles do very well and have gotten me meat over the years. The only powder that I use in all of them is 3031. As you say, I too have done alot of research over the years and this powder along with 58 grains of the stuff is what I have used over the years along with Hornady's excellent 300 grain jacketed flat-nose bullet. I have never had any complaints nor have any of the game I have gotten protested--much! Of the three calibers that I have used, the 40-82 shoots the flattest over the long distances.Of course I have also used alot of BP but do prefer the 3031. Now there will no doubt think that I am full of beans but this is what I use and have used since 1968 when I got my 45-90. So, for what it is worth, I thought that you might like to read what someone else is doing. The bullet that I use in the 40-82 is the 250 grain Barnes that I got a whole gob of several years ago.
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I thought I was on to a good post here as I am looking for a good load for my 1886 in 50/110, but there seems to be very little in the way of loads for this small cartridge, I cant even find dies for it, are there any other 50 caliber dies that can be used ? With care of course, and what is the best bullet weight for the very slow twist rate, all my moulds are for 650/750 gr bullets, (for other rifles), so I need a good 350gr flat nose mould for this 50/110 caliber cartridge ? Any constructive advice would be gratefully accepted .
Sorry to be a bit late commenting on your 50-110 M'86. In the November 1965 issue of Shooting Times Magazine, Ken Waters covered all the cartridges for which the '86 was chambered, including the .50-110. The cartridge and rifling twist was marketed as an "Express" rifle, which sent a 300 gr. bullet out at 1605 ft/sec for a standard velocity load and 2242 ft/sec for the WHV load. He listed Lyman #512139 and the #509134 moulds, and recommended between 52-57 gr. 3031 for the cast bullets. [I am only quoting his article, never having had a .50-110, and can assume no responsibility for the use of this data in any way, shape or form.]
As far as loading dies are concerned, have you checked with RCBS? They might be costly, but they could probably make a set for you. Good luck. Stay well and safe!
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Starline 45/70 brass (so I dont get it mixed with my sharps ammo) -
6 grains 4227 on the primer - then 63 grains of FFFg - 40thou HDPE wad - 335 grain cast soft - loading book from my chrono box says 1548 FPS average with an extreme spread of 6FPS
or ....
6 grains 4227 - then 55 grains FFFg - 40 thou wad - 405 grain cast soft book says 1362 FPS average with ES = 7FPS
Rifle is Chiappa 1886 - weighs neat ten pounds so recoil is not a problem
(http://)
335 grain boolit on the left in the picture
a couple months later I read my range book and updated this
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I hear ya may well stick to 300 grainer JHP or 350 LRN I do have almost a box for speer 400 fps that might work at a reasonable velocity dont want my brain rattled loose
I do know with 65 grains Olde Eyseford 2f under a 500 grain bullet my original 1888 trapdoor is no fun
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Hit the range with 300 JHPs and 350 JRNs over varget starting max trapdoor safe load for each bullets then down in .5 grain increments shot in min charge to max charge order just to be clear. Grouped best at 1 grain below max in each case. Lot easier on shoulder at 1 grain below than the .5 below and max load. Since going to range picked up some RL 7 may try different powders and actually try some cast bullets have some Desparado bullets 415 grainers that worked ok out of a H&R officers model trapdoor
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Well I got to going through my notes and--DEAR ME--I found that you wanted some more info on that load that I use in my 45-90 and here it is: As I said-I use IMR 3031 and with 58.0 grains with a Hornady 300 grain jacketed soft point bullet. The muzzle velocity=-through my PACT chronograph is 1859 and the energy is 2303 foot pounds The recoil is not too bad-especially when you are going after meat! Now, I believe that this data answers your questions that you had.
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My preferred load for my Browning 1886 rifle is the old Elmer Keith load of 53.5 gr IMR 4895, large rifle primer, and a Lyman 330 gr HP Gould bullet. I cast mine soft and paper patch them. Load chronographs a just under 1700 fps. Very pleasant to shoot and very accurate. Especially with a shotgun butteplate stocked rifle. With a paper patched bullet there is no leading.
Bill
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If you're looking to shoot at CAS targets, as I do with mine, 13 grains of Trail Boss under a 405 grain bullet (.45-70) is a lot of fun. Takes targets down with some authority!