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CAS TOPICS => The Longbranch => Topic started by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 25, 2004, 10:59:09 PM

Title: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 25, 2004, 10:59:09 PM: What do y'all think?
Too rigid or too flexible?
Focused on money or just trying to survive?

From your seat, what's the "State of SASS?"

Adios,
Hext
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Ketchum on February 26, 2004, 07:31:10 PM: For me it's not fading. In general I believe it has become somewhat diluted. With so many new members sometimes us vets forget the enthusiasm we had when we came to this sport.

Will Ketchum
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 26, 2004, 08:25:24 PM: Yeah, I hear ya, but I don't see the kind of commitment to the spirit that I used to.. and I've only been doing this for three years.

I like SASS as a vehicle for standardization, but I believe they have lost out on the flow of information and how long it takes for local clubs to get the new stuff. Like a herd strung out too long on the trail, with leaders pushing hard, a stampede is bound to happen.

Adios mi amigo,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Wymore Wrangler on February 26, 2004, 08:53:45 PM: I've got agree with you Hext on this one, with the movement to tricked out guns, 1911 style matches on the horizon, I don't see it continuous growth, to many older folks won't play the game, it will be to costly for younger folks with families to get into. They need to remember that the younger shooters are what's going to carry the sport...
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: john boy on February 26, 2004, 09:56:51 PM: Yorba Linda is moving away too much from original values to just be a cash cow
As for the members of SASS, still tops in my book.
Regards
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Paper Chaser on February 26, 2004, 10:33:21 PM: Just my 'esteemed estimation' is SASS is experiencing severe growing pains and is trying to handle the influx of so many new members the past few years.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Pluggum on February 27, 2004, 06:59:00 AM: If you gents don't mind a greenhorn puttin' his two cents in.....I'm not even a member yet, have never been to a shoot, and still a WHOLE LOT I don't know, but I got the bug and want to get involved. My problem right now is the expense of getting started. A rifle, TWO revolvers, a shotgun, ammo, assorted gear. Good Lord! Your talkin' $2500 to $3000 just to get started. This is going to slow down new membership for sure.....
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 27, 2004, 07:50:59 AM: Howdy Slim,
Welcome to CAS.

The cost has always been a barrier to joining in the game. And while SASS may have some influence in the prices, I don't think they can get vendors to lower their prices.

Remember that when the game was started, Rugers were $200, a 97 was $100, Stevens 311 was $50 and an original 73 was $500. For less than $1000, you could get going. And of course once you are good and addicted, you look in your gun closet and find thousands of dollars in guns, leather and clothes. ;D

My question/reflection is more directed towards the steady erosion of members in long standing.
Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Pluggum on February 27, 2004, 08:07:15 AM: Not having been there, anything I said would be a guess. Maybe to much commercialization or it's overly competitive? From what I'm reading, it can be pretty exhausting to compete. Maybe it's simply burn-out. It's not unusual for any organization that experiences explosive growth like this to flounder and loose sight of thier goals. Maybe the the head hauncos need to sit down and re-define what this sport is and where it should go. thanks for listenin'
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 27, 2004, 08:11:31 AM: Slim,

Those are all good ideas.. and just as valid as anyone's else..
Keep em coming amigo,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: St. George on February 27, 2004, 02:52:12 PM: In a way, I think that the rush to be "all things Cowboy" has hurt the organization.
SASS is very good at what SASS does and that's the promotion of SASS.
They do get their message across and they also send out reps to gun shows armed with videos and handouts to tempt new shooters.
No other outfit does that.
I think that they're the only one with a marketing program.
But I also think that shooters who have tried IPSC and the race guns were looking for something a bit less "high-tech" and since they liked action shooting - well, what better than Cowboy Action Shooting?
It was fun, it was low-tech and everybody'd liked to play cowboy as kids - hell - it was tailor-made...
The "problem" is that some of those guys weren't satisfied just shooting - they had to compete. then, they really had to compete and they started for a way to look at mechanical advantages - just like they did in IPSC.
Prices of gear went up and two revolvers are a bunch of money to a guy with a young family, who just liked to shoot Old West guns.
The "regular" folks started to see this slight shift away from the basics and saw that as the wave of the future as the top competitors (and their tricked-out gear) were lionized in print.
So, I think a lot of them pulled back a little.
The thing is - I think that there are a lot of those "regular" folks out there - just waiting.
They need to find out about WASA and NCOWS and GAF and the associated groups that really make up the whole "Cowboy" shooting world.
I think that for many, those organizations will eventually become the "backbone" of the sport as the sport eventually finds its way and stabilizes.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Ketchum on February 27, 2004, 04:42:31 PM: Slim you thing CAS is expensive just be grateful you didn't take up sky diving or hot air ballooning. Lots of ups and downs to those hobbies ;D.

Seriously, it doesn't have to be real expensive for a new person. Problem is most want to jump right in buy new guns leather and duds. If they would just take their time. Go to a couple of matches talk to the shooters try a few guns they will save themselves some money by not buying something they aren't happy with later. Used gear can be purchased at nearly every shoot. Exceptable clothing can be picked up at thrift stores and garage sales.

No one is expected to show up at their first shoot with all the guns, leather and clothing. If you just make an effort they will see that you really want to get into CAS and nearly everyone will practically trip over themselves trying to get you started. I know you have heard this before but maybe you don't quite believe it. Believe it!! It's true.

I have enough guns, leather, hats, vests and assorted clothing to equip and cloth an entire posse (well if they are all fat guys :D)

There are many more just like me and yes if I'm the one driving I bring all of the guns and leather!

Will Ketchum
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Pluggum on February 27, 2004, 05:01:57 PM: Will...I understand. I have been around long enough to have grandchildren and one thing I've learned is not to jump into anything with both feet. Just ease your way in and listen when someone offers advice. Get a feel and then decide what you need. People will actually let you shoot their guns? This is very big of them. I came from a background where people are hesitant to let others handle thier firearms. My local club meets March 6 for a shoot and I'm planning on being there. Thanks again to all for the warm welcome I found here.....Slim
OH....ABOUT SKYDIVING....heard a good one the other day.
"if at first you don't succeed......you should probably not take up skydiving"
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Calamity Jane on February 27, 2004, 05:02:07 PM: "Is SASS fading?"

I hope so. Don't associate with thieves 'n' less than honorable folk.....
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 27, 2004, 05:29:39 PM: Slim, I kid you not.. you'll be amazed at how many folks will be faling over themselves trying to loan you guns and gear. That's why we caution new folks to take their time and try out lots of different guns, cause there is no shortage of loaners.

CJ... I feel your pain. The world is a wheel, say some...

Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Standpat Steve on February 27, 2004, 11:25:07 PM: When SASS started, you only needed one revolver, rifle & shotgun. Everybody had pretty much been exposed to drawing from leather, moving & shooting in "combat shooting " of some type. Now you have people who have never shot before starting to show up at SASS matches. The rules needed for 1000 to play are different than for 25,000 to play. SASS isn't fading, but it is redefining itself some, and experiencing some growing pains. I think that soon, it will have attracted most of those predisposed to shoot Cowboy, and level off some before getting more manageable (smaller) again.

Not bad, just different . . .

Standpat Steve, SASS #113, Calif.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Marshal Halloway on February 28, 2004, 12:22:17 AM: I don't believe SASS is fading, but they sure do have more challenges than ever before. In my opinion, not directly because of the increase in membership, but we have a new breed of shooters and guns coming in. Let me first emphasize that all new shooters are welcome. What is important and this is probably the biggest challenge; every level of members should feel that SASS and other organizations are their home ground.

I have inititated a national organization myself and it is a miniature compared to SASS, but this new level of competitiveness is a challenge, no matter how big the organization is. The pressure from "competition cas guns" has an effect whether we admit it or not. I was on a denial on this issue for a long time, but I do see even in Scandinavia with 600+ active CAS shooters, that we have to deal with it. Many new shooters feel they have to have the best, the best clothes, the best whatever, just to be "accepted". This is more a personal feeling than the truth.

I have started a lot of new shooters these past years and I still stick to my old school book: Get the allowed guns you want, shoot the 45's, if the intention is to live out the old dream. Some new shooters come back rather confused telling me they have been advised to shoot 38 and with tuned up guns. Well, I don't argue, I just tell them once again they do have options and the gut feeling, the wallet and the rule book is the ground you're standing on. Anyway, they do feel the pressure and it is our job not to let that pressure take the top seat.

When I say deal with, I don't mean banning guns and ammo we couldn't foresee back in the 80's. Many of our champions today are rolemodels and bring in new members to our family.

BUT..........

We need to take better care of the general membership and highlight these members as much as we highlight our champions. This is the SASS challenge as well as for other organizations. If we don't, we will see a new IPSC/IDPA situation. The history has a tendency to repeat itself and we, the membership, local officers, the TGs and the WB together need to work on this together.

If we don't, we all have ourselves to blame. Local clubs are in fact more important than the SASS office with all due respect. Local clubs are in charge when it comes to taking care of those that just want to have fun even competing with the good old guns.

I am a competitive shooter myself, but I still shoot 45's with a 780-800 fps in my pistols. I don't win at big events any longer, but for me, it is important to be a role model for those that can't afford competition guns and don't have the time to practise for the big awards.

;D tongue in cheek: I often say to my fellow founding fathers in SWS: We won a lot of games back in the old days, but when we opened up for the membership, the "problem started". They have the nerve to beat us... ;D
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Foothills Drifter on February 28, 2004, 09:41:39 AM: Howdy......
I have looked this thread over very carefully and have come to the conclusion that both St. George and Marshal Halloway have most accurately surmized the situation (I bet ya ain't never heard a cowboy talk like that before :o ) Well anyhow I think they have said it all and said it best!

Good shootin......
Vern... 8)
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Russ T Chambers on February 28, 2004, 06:59:36 PM: Howdy Folks
Since my first EOT in 1989 (and even just before that, shooting with Bill Hahn and his wife Dorothy), I must say I have never ran into a more out going, friendly group of people than CAS shooters. I hesitate to use the word camaraderie, as it seems to always crop up, but it fits. Heading into my sixteenth consecutive EOT I feel I have to comment on whether or not we are fading.
With memberships reflected in badge numbers well over 50,000 I don’t think we can say we have a new membership problem. When I was first getting started, period clothing was almost non-existent, lever guns in pistol calibers were hard to come by, and authentic holsters were basically in the realm of antiques. And I used to frequent the Pomona gun show when it was at its apex and couldn’t find much.
The first year I attended EOT at Coto de Caza I believed we had a total of 5-10 vendors. Last year at EOT it was well over 100. I realize EOT is something that not everyone can attend either because of distance or cost, but it does offer some insight to the growth of the sport. (Over 500 ground shooters).
I think the biggest contribution to the growth of our sport is accomplished at the local club level. It is imperative for the local clubs to make new shooters and spectators feel welcome. These are the people that bring new blood to Cowboy Action Shooting. I have personally decided to not shoot at several of our local matches, simply to take the time to explain all the aspects of our sport to people that stop by to see what all these people dressed in strange outfits are up to. I know that this has led to many a new shooter at our club. However, don’t let it stop there. New shooters should be encouraged, made to feel part of the group, and included in all the aspects of a shoot. Most want to help with setup, tear down, running stages and other tasks. They just need someone to show them what needs to be done and to help them learn. This makes for a shooter who does more than come out, shoot the stages, then leave. You end up with a true Cowboy Action Shooter. Fading, no! Evolving and growing, yes!
I guess I spouted enough for my first post here.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Ketchum on February 28, 2004, 07:36:27 PM: Russ T. Thanks for the post. It is nice to hear from someone who has been at this game longer than me.

You joined in the late 80s and I in 94. It took 5 or 6 years to grow by 4000. We seem to grow that much in 6months these days ;D

Thanks for showing the way to help new shooters.

Will Ketchum
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 28, 2004, 09:03:30 PM: Really thoughtful and insightful posts. Gracias!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on February 28, 2004, 09:31:38 PM: Howdy,

I've been reading and thinking as well. Perhaps, it is not so much that SASS has faded as the sport of Cowboy Action Shooting has been growing up. It came to me that I don't have a clue what ruling body (or bodies) there are for skeet or trap or a whole bunch of other shooting sports. But I know the game and I like to shoot.

And I do love the local clubs. I think they are the pride of this game, the place where the good folks meet and share fellowship. I can not tell y'all the number of good folks I have met at CAS clubs. And the good folks that seem to congregate and populate these forums.

Adios all,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Cuts Crooked on March 01, 2004, 01:51:47 PM: Quote
Is SASS fading? If so, why?

Well pard, I think it is, as someone else noted, going through some growing pains. It is my hope that it comes through them stronger than ever, when it's over. Of late I think that between the TGs, a plethora of new classes/rules, and changes suggested in existing classes (Yeah, I know, I know...catagories!) that a lot of us are suffering mild alienation. Hopefully the WB will get a loop on things and slow down a bit in that direction.

To the new pard looking break into the game: Some good advise from the other pards there!!! Jist GO! You'll be glad ya did! I got into this stuff three years ago...for jist under a thousand bucks worth of irons...and I was perfectly happy and able to be competitive to boot! I doubt that a pard could get started quite that cheap today, but it doesn't have to be "top of the line' to be a reasonable competitor, at least at the state and below level. If ya follow the advise above and GO you'll love it! ;D
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: RRio on March 03, 2004, 11:35:55 AM: After reading this thread, I don't think we have a thing to worry about, as long as we continue to have people like all of you, associated with SASS.
We may have to nip an "arms race" in the bud, but I believe all in all, that we are in good shape!

;D
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: St. George on March 04, 2004, 09:09:11 AM: As I'd stated earlier, trying to cover all aspects of Cowboy and Western Action Shooting has stretched SASS thin.
As it matures as an organization and defines its interests - those beyond self-promotion - I think it'll settle into its niche as the "Grandfather of Cowboy Action Shooting" and be happy there.

NCOWS will draw authenticity-minded folks to one side, Western 3-Gun will draw the competitors to another, and WASA and the Cowboy Mounted Shooting Association to even more places.
But in the long run I think SASS will continue to act as the "umbrella".

SASS (and the Wild Bunch) needs to listen to its membership more, and maybe it needs to celebrate the common shooter as well, and the tricked-out rabid competitor a little less.

Personally, I always thought that this was supposed to be a fun sport and that while that the will to win was laudable - it wasn't the driving force.
It's becoming so.
Right now, you've got new guys seduced into believing that their new Colt, or clone or whatever isn't "good enough" simply because it hasn't been "worked over". when in actuality, they're so inexperienced as shooters that they can't yet shoot to their guns' capabilities - nor will they ever - because they won't invest the time or the ammo - they think they can buy the expertise in an action job.
C'mon!
Tricked-out stuff is fun to watch - in an "American Shooter - Bob Munden" sort of way, but it isn't for every shooter, and these guys would be better served if they spent their money on ammunition and their time on the range and far less on worrying about equipment inadequacies driven by all sorts of advice, tapes and articles praising shooting schools as opposed to articles stressing shooting fundamentals and doing well with "stock" weaponry.
It's not "IPSC with Hats" - yet.
It seems headed there, but it can still be headed off if they listen.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Doc Shapiro on March 04, 2004, 11:39:57 AM: St. George, you have a very good point there. Folks would be better off spending the money on practice and learning to use their equipment. You can't spend enough money on a gun to make up for that.

Rio mentions an arms race. I think that's a myth. There's only so much you can do to a cowboy gun and still leave it legal to play. Last years EOT winner won with guns that were hardly modifed at all. There is nothing that you can do to the guns to make up for a lack of ability.

Granted, there are a lot of modifications, and I've got most of 'em. But for me it's an issue of confidence and just the joy of shooting a gun that's been worked over. I find it much more pleasant. Doesn't make any difference on times. Here's an example....

10 shot dump on a 14 inch circle at 10 yards with rifle (this just tests sheer operating speed). With a 45 caliber Marlin (just smoothed up with sandpaper and a 1-peice firing pin) I can shoot it in 4.1 seconds. With a totally tricked out 73, I can do it in 4.0 seconds. That won't make any difference in a match where you have to go from target to target. I'm shooting the '73 now, for the sole reason of better fit.

Doc
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: RRio on March 04, 2004, 02:30:53 PM: Doc,
I may be a bit of a hypocrite when it comes to the arms race. There are some modifications that I do not agree with, while at the same time, I honestly believe in something I was told a long time ago, by Bob James.
He told me that all Colt SAAs and replicas, even new in the box, should have an action job done on them to promote longevity in them.
That is something I always repeated to my customers, and believe it to be true. Out of hundreds of guns that I have tuned, I can only remember a couple that ever came back to me for repairs.
But doing an action on one, does not constitute an unfair advanage in my opinion. Or does it?
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: St. George on March 04, 2004, 03:30:03 PM: Rio,
As far as I'm concerned, the advice you got from Bob James was good.
Especially when all you're doing is the normal smoothing that the factory should've done when they built the gun.
Regrettably, the hand work of the Pre-War Colts and others is expensive and the work force in the gun manufacturing world isn't much better than parts assemblers.

That sort of thing isn't really an "action job" as I see it.
Changing leaf springs over to coil springs is, as is the addition of differently-weighted hammers, lightened cylinders, modified hammers (both modifications for the old "Fast-Draw" crowd - safe because of the use of blanks-only).

Every gun I get - I clean thoroughly.
I look for any burring and stone any I find away.
Then, I use "Pro-Gold" as a primary lube at the wear points, and reassemble.
I don't change anything other than that.
When I'm done, I know I don't have anything floating around on the inside and that it's been maintained properly.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Doc Shapiro on March 04, 2004, 04:17:00 PM: Unfair advantage? I don't think there is such a thing. Practice will overcome all. I friend of mine shoots Vaquero's that have had nothing done to them but springs. I've seen him shoot 10 shots, on target, in 3.6 seconds starting from hands not touching guns :o. And he's faster with his dad's Colts, that have had just the action work that you speak of. The fastest I've been able to go with my heavily modified Rugers is 4.53.

It's all in the hands of the shooter, not the equipment.

Doc
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Marauder on March 05, 2004, 11:34:37 AM: Local folks have wrestled with this topic some. In my areas, currently Georgia, the number of clubs and overall number of shooters has been increasing. The number of shooters at each club may actually have slightly declined. This is partly due to attrition - folks moving, and unfortunately some no longer with us due to health, age, etc. It is also due to the increased number of clubs.

I see some fierce competitors but most of them have had a positive impact because many of them are actually doing much of the work! :o And most are friendly. ;D

What we've summarized is that we all need to stress being social as much as we can. Before, during and after the shoot. Doesn't seem to matter if the members are really top shooters or primarily plinking (nearly all are competing at some level) - but are we greeting folks and building relationships?

Where folks are making friends, they are having the most fun.

As to how SASS can help.
Some of what Tex has written and even the Judge has said in the last year or so really makes me wonder. . .
Tex and the others were once quite competitive - and they were fun to shoot with and probably still are. But I think some have got caught up in some of the controversies. The end result is they may be increasing the controversies rather than doing what they really want - encouraging camaraderie and having a great time shooting with friends in a competitive sport.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: RRio on March 05, 2004, 01:02:27 PM: Quote from: Marauder on March 05, 2004, 11:34:37 AM

I see some fierce competitors but most of them have had a positive impact because many of them are actually doing much of the work! :o And most are friendly. ;D

What we've summarized is that we all need to stress being social as much as we can. Before, during and after the shoot. Doesn't seem to matter if the members are really top shooters or primarily plinking (nearly all are competing at some level) - but are we greeting folks and building relationships?

Where folks are making friends, they are having the most fun.

This hits home for myself.
Lord knows I do not go to the matches because I am a top competitor, quite the opposite, I always end up in the back of the pack. I am not, nor will I ever be, fast. I am accurate, though.
I go to the matches for the camaraderie. It is fun to spend a few hours with folks that have interests similiar to mine. And not have to worry about the pressures of the modern world.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Nashville Frank on March 05, 2004, 01:03:23 PM: I would like to give you all a foreigners point of view..

This year I went from Norway to my first SASS matches. And for shure not the last ;D I went to Tucsons " Brawley Wash" and "Winter Range".

All the people we met, made me confident that SASS is NOT a fading game! We really met the spirit and hospitality we have heard about from others! The people we met made our journey to something very special, and we went back home with a whole lot of inspiration!!

I would like to say THANK YOU to all the people who helped us feel welcome!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Irish Red O'Toole on March 05, 2004, 01:27:57 PM: I think Paper Chaser said it best. SASS is growing faster than they can comfortably handle it. Witness the inconsistencies on TOB, etc. The Wild Bunch will either pull out of the dive and avoid splattering into the ground or they'll make a loud thumping sound as they hit. How long this will take is anyone's guess. Personally, from purely a businessman's point of view, they need to make a 3-4 key hires in their office staff to help the overflow. I'm not saying fire someone and replace 'em, just hire additional staff and spread out the workload. It may cut into profits initially, but it'll pay HUGE dividends in the long run. The sum of which will be even more growth than they expected.

Just this businessman's opinion. Your mileage may vary.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on March 07, 2004, 09:47:20 PM: As always, interesting and thoughtful comments.

And a reminder that there is SASS, the business, and CAS, the sport. Because SASS has done so much to promote itself and CAS, it means the same thing to many folks.

I think the game of CAS is growing strong and maturing. SASS will have to continue to innovate in order to maintain it's leadership role. Customer relations are another area of challenge to the folks at Yorba Linda.

Gracias y adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Tres Equis on March 08, 2004, 07:44:05 PM: That might be part of the problem right there. On the one hand folks are saying that SASS needs to be the innovator and continually changing to meet the needs of those who are not yet involved. And on the other, folks who are already involved are clamoring for fewer changes.

It's tough to please everybody.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Camille Eonich on March 11, 2004, 06:53:08 PM: Tres...you hit that nail on the head!

SASS will have to make a choice and either way they go there are going to be people that don't like the choice they make.

I'm with the other, if you can't tell already, who say that SASS has reached a turning point. I don't think they are going to fade away but they are going to be making some changes. Some will stick around and some will go. SASS will still be here.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on March 11, 2004, 08:27:28 PM: Right, the failure to make an active choice leads others to make their own choices.. less unified and more reactive choices. And make no mistake, choices are being made by the individual shooters.

Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Willie Wheelgun on March 13, 2004, 08:36:31 PM: I guess my problem with SASS is the way they set up classes. How can you require =< 1873 firearms, but shoot smokeless? And not requiring minimum fps for some of the cap-gun gamers is a joke!
I am with Hank Williams, Jr. I love the roar of a .44!
JMHO
WW
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Paper Chaser on March 13, 2004, 11:48:15 PM: Initially I want to thank Irish Red for his kind comments; not sure I said it best just said it the way it seems to be; and I've seen growth stifle a company until they adjusted. (Psssst, Irish, where do I send the check?) Hey, this is just a fun sport for me -- took me almost ten years of shooting SAs until I finally decided to join up. I don't dwell on the past and I'm saddened by the many missed opportunities and friendships that surely were waiting, but if the past is anything like I've experienced in recent months then I have truly missed a lot.
Willie, first please allow me to share my philosophy of posting: NOTHING I say or write is to be taken as a personal affront, just my opinions or perhaps MEE (my esteemed estimation). So never take anything from my side as personal. As for your comment regarding the classes, may I be so bold as to suggest you send your ideas, thoughts, opinions, etc. to SASS and explain your points of view and any changes you feel would be a positive for the sport. I think they'll listen, if not, then shame on them. Perhaps expounding your viewpoints to your TG would be a starting point for this venue. Never know -- strange things can happen. Hey, Pards, shoot straight and be SAFE.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Pluggum on March 17, 2004, 09:59:12 PM: Just F.Y.I., SASS picked up over 400 new members last month. Mulitiply by 12, add the years...in the not so distant future it could be real power house of an organization. Membership is up to 57,400 already. Maybe it should start lookin at forming a washington lobby for protecting and promoting the shooting sports and gun owners rights. At the very least aligning it self with the NRA. None of us want this sport to get involved in 'politics' but you have to face the facts and realize that there are powerful organizations out there that want to take our guns away from us. And It CAN happen. Look at what happened in Canada and Austrailia...both 'free world' countrys!?!? The only way to stop them is thru the voice of the people. The National Rifle Association has been our man in the front trenchs, our voice... for decades. SASS is gaining the numbers, and power, to stand beside them. Food for thought.......Pluggum
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on March 19, 2004, 09:18:24 AM: Will,

The badge numbers are a bit misleading. There are about 30-35,000 members in SASS right now.. In a recent Chronicle, it was reported that a total of 31,000 CCs are printed per month. That's a pretty good indicator of actual members.

As for the politics... I think we should all support the NRA first, and then any other organization that fits a more personal need. I've suggested to the NRA in the past, that they should include a discounted, even down to $10, membership for anyone buying a gun. The certificate could be given out by the merchant. It would encourage ALL gun owners to become NRA members.

Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Will Pluggum on March 19, 2004, 04:19:30 PM: I didn't figure in those who joined and then didn't renew. I'm guessin that explains the difference in numbers. Still there is power in numbers and maybe someday sass will evolve to the point where it wants to take an active part in defending gun owners rights. If for nothing else, then just to protect it's own turf. BTW... Good idea on the the $10 discount to encourage new NRA membership.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Trinity on March 22, 2004, 08:25:32 PM: Does anyone know how SASS handles the issuance of their membership numbers? Are all numbers belonging to people who let their memberships lapse reused or not?

Just curious.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on March 23, 2004, 08:26:31 AM: Trinity,

At one point, the numbers could be sold and re-issued.
NOW, once a badge has been issued, it's gone. In fact, if a regular member goes life and chooses to do so at a major shoot, they can pick up a badge on the spot. They will then have two badge numbers, their original number and their new life number.

Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Howdy Doody on March 28, 2004, 11:33:24 AM: Quote from: Big Hext Finnigan on March 23, 2004, 08:26:31 AM
Trinity,

At one point, the numbers could be sold and re-issued.
NOW, once a badge has been issued, it's gone. In fact, if a regular member goes life and chooses to do so at a major shoot, they can pick up a badge on the spot. They will then have two badge numbers, their original number and their new life number.

Adios,

That is true. I myself have had two badge numbers and this is my second alias. It wasn't a membership lapse, but a error that was made at HQ and was picked up upon my first year renewal. To their (SASS HQ) credit they never charged me for the new alias change and badge number.
Only SASS can tell you how many are actually active and all. I suspect the higher numbers quoted helps to secure advertisers and such.
I think I have noticed in the past year that attendence to bigger shoots has increased some, as in some are sell outs a fill completely, where in the past they hadn't.
I take myself as an example. Just about a year and retired, nothing much to do to stay active except travel around and shoot CAS, and there are many people around my age that are facing retirement and leisure time, soooooooo more time = more shooting. Life is tough ain't it? :)
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on March 29, 2004, 02:56:09 PM: I sure hope I can enjoy that kind of "retirement" ;D
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Lucky Deuce on March 31, 2004, 03:20:11 PM: I agree with St. George about SASS spreading itself thin. The way I see it, SASS is kind of divided into different groups. At one extreme are those who don't care that much about authenticity and are more interested in "winning"; and at the other extreme are those who think SASS should push for more authenticity; and the rest of the shooters who fall in between.

If NCOWS or WASA or other groups that exist were bigger I would wager that many in SASS who want more authenticity would move to them and shoot them most of the time and occasionally attend SASS matches. Unfortunately, they aren't, so there is a frustration level in SASS because shooters see things that they feel should be addressed. Some of the problems are they do not like the Shotgun Shell holders or the gun modifications (there is a difference between having your gun worked on to make sure it shoots well and having a custom modification job done on it) or styles of shooting that weren't prevalent in the 1800's (two handed shooting) . Another thing some see as a problem is having a Top Shooter or Match Winner who gets all or most of the "press" instead of giving the Category winners the attention. You can't compare the various categories and have them compete with each other and declare the shooter with the highest score the overall winner. There is a heck of a lot of difference between Frontiersman and Traditional.

I mentioned this difference and was told that if I wanted to even have a chance to win then instead of shooting Frontiersman I should shoot Traditional because Frontiersman is not a competetive category. Huh????? So if Frontiersman is not Competetive then why have it compete against Traditional in the first place??? It seems like the main focus has become winning and the competition part of the game. As St. George said, some shooters feel like they have to have the tricked out guns and the slick holsters and anything else to shave off the nano second off thier times so they can compete.

Its these problems, some minor some major, that are causing ripples in SASS. Do I think it will fade away? I hope not. But it does need to realize that it is no longer the small organization that it once was and it needs to re-organize and change so it can handle the changes that growth has brought. Back when SASS was started there wasn't all the authentic guns and clothing and equipment that there is today. IF there had been I would wager SASS would be a lot different... Authenticity would have been emphasized more.

I shoot to have fun but I would like to see some changes to SASS. Not so I can win...heck I am happy if I can finish a match and have all my caps go off and the gun shoots...(and I ain't even going to go into hitting the targets LOL) but so others who are good shooters but don't shoot Traditional and therefore are not as competetive might be able to be recognized...
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Doc Shapiro on March 31, 2004, 04:17:55 PM: Lucky Deuce, scoring and recognition seem to be a bone of contention with a lot of folks. There are a couple of deeper issues that surround scoring, so may be better left to a different post. I will suggest that in the article about the MD State Match (a couple of issues ago), there was no mention at all of any of the category winners or the match winner. You might bring up recognition issues with your local clubs. As far as I know, every match that I've been to recognizes the category winners as well as the overall winner.

---

My bone of contention here is the rule book. SASS has gotten too big to be able to rely on peer pressure to maintain adherance to concepts and ideas regarding the game. It's time for the organization to grow and put together a complete rule book that address modifications, vague rules, and other stuff. It should be written by a competant technical writer that understands how to write rules. We spend far too much time debating "the right call" and "is this modification legal" and not enough time on the important stuff like "check out my new hat!" A complete rule book would go a long way toward this.

There is a lot of animosity directed toward this idea as it starts to resemble IPSC. I happen to enjoy shooting IPSC matches and my wife prefers them. She even uses a totally unmodified 1911 in 45 ACP, and has won. Cowboy and IPSC are 2 different games, BPCR, and Silhouette are different too. All of these except for Cowboy have complete rule books that specify what is and is not allowed. It's time for SASS to do the same.

Doc
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on April 01, 2004, 09:52:51 AM: Howdy Lucky Duece,

I made this post elsewhere as an observation of the CAS game. What are your thoughts?

There's a fair amount of discussion, here and elsewhere about the Modern category and what to do with it. Here's my suggestion, but it's a pretty significant revamp of the category structure of SASS.

First off, I think there is room for everyone's cowboy shooting style. Still, they seem to divide along two lines, one Modern and one Traditional.
Modern would hold adjustable sights, modified guns, light loads and minimal dress. It would be the default/catch-all category for new shooters.
Traditional would be for traditional BP level loads, stock guns and upgraded dress.
I'd say that 97s could be in both, Blackpowder and smokeless can be in both and two handed shooting can be in both, but not off hand thumbing.

My theory is based on a 4 phase spectrum pairing the two dominant issues in CAS, Shooting and Costuming. If you will:
Quadrant one is your fast competitive shooter who just happens to be shooting cowboy guns. He would be just as happy shooting another discipline. This shooter wears the very minimum of clothes needed to qualify for the match. His ability to transform steel into a rapid-fire machinery is his passion.
Quadrant two is your competitive shooter, but committed to CAS. He will slick his guns and lighten his loads. He wears a Gus rather than a Cattleman's crease on his hat. He loves the game but it's the shooting more than the history.
Quadrant three is the Tom Selleck wannabee. He dresses to the best of his ability and shoots the loads like they did back in the old days. His guns may have a little stoning or a set of springs. He cares about his match placement, but not at the cost of leaving the history.
Quadrant four are re-enactors who shoot cause it gives them an excuse to wear the clothes. He likes to shoot but history, authenticity and heritage are his watchwords. Blackpowder is the only way for this shooter. He does the little things and enjoys transporting himself back in time.

It is my observation that most folks are in Q2 and Q3. Most folks in Q2 want to compare themselves with the folks in Q1 and most folks in Q3 would rather not be compared to folks in Q1 and to a degree Q2. Q4 folks want more dressing up and look at Q2 as a minimum and Q3 as acceptable costuming.

I'm sure there is a lot I'm missing and I hope everyone reads this with a clear eye. I am not judging any position nor am I trying to separate folks, I am relating my observation just think these are the fracture lines that are developing.

Your comments please..
Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on April 01, 2004, 09:56:14 AM: Quote from: Doc Shapiro on March 31, 2004, 04:17:55 PM

My bone of contention here is the rule book. SASS has gotten too big to be able to rely on peer pressure to maintain adherance to concepts and ideas regarding the game. It's time for the organization to grow and put together a complete rule book that address modifications, vague rules, and other stuff. It should be written by a competant technical writer that understands how to write rules. We spend far too much time debating "the right call" and "is this modification legal" and not enough time on the important stuff like "check out my new hat!" A complete rule book would go a long way toward this.

There is a lot of animosity directed toward this idea as it starts to resemble IPSC. I happen to enjoy shooting IPSC matches and my wife prefers them. She even uses a totally unmodified 1911 in 45 ACP, and has won. Cowboy and IPSC are 2 different games, BPCR, and Silhouette are different too. All of these except for Cowboy have complete rule books that specify what is and is not allowed. It's time for SASS to do the same.

Doc

Yepper, I completely agree. 'Specially when the peer pressure is so uneven and based on regional and personal vagaries.

If I can sum up SASS's problem in one word, it's "professionalism" or the lack thereof..
Adios all,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Doc Shapiro on April 01, 2004, 10:53:01 AM: Hext, your quadrants are a pretty fair example of why we need a better rule book and more equitable scoring. I'd like to see each category scored only against themselves and then all combined for an OA winner. If there is a complete rule book with everything spelled out (including modifications) a lot of the griping will change character and scope. All the griping about "this modification shouldn't be allowed and isn't allowed in the rule book even though it's mostly internal" will go away cause it'll be in the book.

I really do think we need an Overall winner. Think about this...

Every other shooting sport has a winner. BPCR, Sillywets, Bullseye, High Power, IPSC, IDPA, and the list goes on. Without an overall winner, we look like just a bunch of organized plinkers that are playing at shooting. That is not good for industry support! We need to look like a professional shooting organization that takes it seriously (as an organization that is). And part of that is having an overall winner. If you don't want the shooting industry to support CAS, then by all means do away with an overall winner. But if you want the shooting industry to support us and continue to come out with new guns, and other stuff, then we need to have an overall winner.

Now that isn't random rumblings in my head. That comes from some of the folks that support us in our habit (and I am not going to name names even though I could).

Doc
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on April 01, 2004, 11:15:57 AM: Howdy Doc,

As far as an "overall" winner.. I would like to think that the outstanding performances would win the day.. If you will, like the Olympics. Sometimes the Decathlete is the superstar, sometimes it's the sprinter, the miler or the hurdler. So Bruce Jenner or Carl Lewis or Sebastion Coe or the latest, greatest gets the biggest pub..
Right now, I'm really impressed with Jackson Turner (except for the 32s, but that's another issue). He's a duelist who is always near the top of the scoreboard.

The different disciplines should be encouraged to stand on their own.. then there could be the odd "grudge ;)" match to see who is really best..

Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Doc Shapiro on April 01, 2004, 11:37:26 AM: The different disciplines mostly do stand on their own. The only issue is how they are scored. Everyone is lumped together and the categories are scored from that. I think the categories ought to be scored seperately and not lumped in with everyone.

If you read the match reports in the Chronicle, the majority hardly even mention the match winner. For example, the one about the MD State Match (Thunder Valley Days) that was printed earlier this year didn't mention the match winner or the state champions anywhere except in the sidebar. It was about the match, not the shooters. Isn't that what folks are after?

We do need our champions in order to garner respect from the shooting industry. They do look at that. Aside from that, at least as many people that want to do away with an overall winner, want to keep it! There's no pleasing everyone. It's a fools errand to try to (and no, I'm not calling anyone a fool ::)).

Doc
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Dogwoman on April 01, 2004, 08:05:46 PM: When you have the different disciplines (duelist vs. traditional vs. frontier cartridge), why not give points to the placements based on where they finish. Add the points up at the end of the match or season and you get an overall winner (similar to NASCAR?). Is this already done somewhere with the point scoring system?

This is just a thought that came to my feeble brain.

I don't score high enough to even care about winners. I have too darned much fun just shooting the stages, dressing up, and visiting with good friends.

SASS fading? Not in Utah!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on April 12, 2004, 09:15:33 AM: Quote from: Dogwoman on April 01, 2004, 08:05:46 PM
When you have the different disciplines (duelist vs. traditional vs. frontier cartridge), why not give points to the placements based on where they finish. Add the points up at the end of the match or season and you get an overall winner (similar to NASCAR?). Is this already done somewhere with the point scoring system?

This is just a thought that came to my feeble brain.

I don't score high enough to even care about winners. I have too darned much fun just shooting the stages, dressing up, and visiting with good friends.

SASS fading? Not in Utah!

Howdy,

I think at the bigger matches, if each category were scored against itself, then you would get the same kind of scoring, as your suggestion.

The social aspect is the big deal.. That's what I love about it. Heck, I even visited a shoot this Saturday just to eat lunch with the pards.

Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Marauder on April 12, 2004, 07:36:18 PM: Doc, with your experience in computers, etc, I'm kinda surprised - do you support rank scoring only within the category?

That can only work at large matches. If you try it with only 5 or 10 competitors, you'll find folks will hate it. In that case total time would be better.

I've tried to explain it but guess I make it too technical - the other scores are really just index points. The higher number of index points - the more accurate the scoring. If you only have a few shooters, a one second lead on one stage may be the same as a 10 second lead on another stage - one rank point.

A couple of folks that write scoring programs and I discussed this. At least on also wanted to go with scoring only within the category - so he played with it and found it made a difference. At first, he thought it was good, but as he watched more matches, he gave up on it because of the lack of an accurate index method.

Any way. Enjoy!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Doc Shapiro on April 12, 2004, 09:29:08 PM: Marauder, that's a great point, and one I hadn't considered. What I really ought to do is to get enough scores into a system to simulate a large match (say 200) and then score it both category seperate and together. This will give us an idea if it's possible for someone to win a category when scored by itself, but not if scored with everyone together. If that happens, then this scoring system wouldn't be a good idea.

I like the scoring system used in IPSC, but I don't fully understand the configuring.

I have found that rankings can vary dramatically when total time is used vs rank. Which is better? I dunno.

I don't know if there is a good solution of not, but I think there's gotta be. But it might take a mathmatician to figure it out.

Doc
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Big Hext Finnigan on April 12, 2004, 10:53:06 PM: Howdy boys...
Should I split this scoring talk off the SASS fading thread? Would make sense to me..

Adios,
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: sixnhand on April 15, 2004, 11:21:38 AM: When I first got into CAS, SASS had a membership of around 4000. I don't know what it is now, 10X ? I shot Judge's Court 1990 something, in Hot Springs, Arkansas, and set up a stage, lots of work, lots of fun. But I realized I liked shoot'n, but I did not care for the competition. Might be because I can't hit the broad side of the barn, even if I'm locked inside. Now I go to occasional local shoots. Love the smell, smoke, and fire of BP. Still dress up, mainly go just to shoot the 'Bull'. The interest is still there, but the get-up-an-go is lacking. I have a major investment in arm's, and will continue to shoot, but only for the fun. This, of course, is a personal little piece of the story.
sixnhand
Young men think old men are fools, old men KNOW young men are.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Nashville Frank on April 17, 2004, 05:09:49 PM: I concider myself as pretty young. But I also pretty much agree with you, Sixnhand! I have to be a fool... ;D

When I think of Big Hexts theory of the four phases, this comes to my mind:

When we are only club members, I concider myself a Q1.

When we have some visitors from other clubs, I`m Q2.

When I attend on open matces, I concider myself as a Q3.

When I watch a good moovie or read a historic book in my own sofa, I`m for sure a Q4!

Now I`m not sure anymore... ;)
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Jackass James on June 25, 2004, 09:29:35 PM: Just thought I would drop in a little comment or two, or three, or MORE! I am new to SASS, so my "outsider" perspective may help address the future of SASS and CAS in general.

I just today phoned SASS to get my ID number ( #59748 - posted on Wednesday the 23rd of June ), which shows that the memberships are growing at a slightly faster rate then some of you had guessed. I couldn't say, however, how many before me have moved on to other hobbies or organizations.

I went to my first CAS shoot just last month after an old high school friend invited me to watch him shoot. I have target shot rifles and a few odd pistol for decades. But never ever have I experienced the feeling of "Lets just have ourselves some good old SAFE fun", like I experienced at this meet! I am now a SASS member, I am going to enter in my first shot this weekend (yep, using borrowed guns), and look forward to developing friendships and working on my gun selection and "costume".

With that said, I feel I must first complain about the DANG BLASTED "SASS shooters handbook"! I keep reading it over and over, but can't get a clear picture of what guns are "right", what the classes are ( the index lists six, but my count I come up at SEVEN! ), plus all the uneplained terms that I am not up to date on. So please SASS! Just what the heck is a "buscadaro" anyway, and why isnt there a diagram or picture of one? I now my old buddy, and all the new pards I will be making, will fill in the gaps, but what is the SASS doing to prevent one club from deciding that something is right, when another says differently?

What they should be doing is setting rules that are CRYSTAL clear, even perhaps to the extent of declaring ( by vote I would hope ) specific gun makes and models that are qualified for each catagory. Then they should clearly define competition levels in which members can compete. I would like to see something more like a classing scheme that divides members up into skill level classes such as "Gunslinger", "Cowpoke", "Farmhand", and "Town Drunk" for example. Then let the Gunslingers work on their best times while we Farmhands and Town Drunks (yours truely) just try to hit something we wuz aimin' at!

Hey! Want more new members? How about a SINGLE weapon starter class! Join, buy one sixshooter, and compete in a seperate catagory for a few months! But oh no! Ya just HAVE to go out and spend two grand on guns to get started ( yep, I know you can borrow, but think like an outsider for a minute!), plus you need to make up a personna and outfit that chahracter ta boot!!!!
KA-CHING!!!!
(Mamma says we need a new refrigerator - I guess SASS is out of the question!)

I just want to go have fun, crack a few jokes, and play cowboy better then back when I was a kid. If someone else wants to shave a tenth ( or hundreth ) second off his times, "well go ahead pard, but don't compete against me!".

So now, back to the basic question of "is SASS fading?".

It WILL if it fails to define itself and it's membership better.
With vague rules and classes, add in rising gun costs, mix in the ability to out-tech the other guy, and you have a formula for chasing the membership off to other venues ( maybe a better description would be that they kind of just wonder off! ).
On scoring - Any organization can have a National Champion, but a successful organization MUST also have many thousands of "want-to-be" champions before anyone will notice that one champion. That dosn't mean that those thousands want to be taken for granted or walked over, they are the front line of support for there hobby and as such, deserve fair recognition for their accomplishments, no matter how poorly they do.

You all can rest assured that I am MUCH less confusing when I am standing on the firing line, loaded and cocked!

Thanks for listening pards

Yours truely
Jackass James <new member at large>
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Texas Lawdog on June 26, 2004, 11:28:19 AM: The membership is till growing, up to almost 60,000 members. Most members can only afford to be Annual members and won't be able to afford the Founders memberships. There will still be folks that wealthy enough to afford those perks. The vast majority of the membership are the regular folks that make up the shooting clubs. They are out there for the fun and friendship, nothing else.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Joyce (AnnieLee) on October 07, 2004, 08:20:48 PM: I recently renewed my membership so I could shoot at MDS. I am glad I did, for it wasn't a high faluting, intense competition for me, it was a great, relaxed shoot where I met a bunch of good people. Was it expensive? Aye, it was. Was it worth it to me to get away from the rat race for a few days to hang out with friends and shoot? Every penny.

I may not agree with all that SASS HQ does and will often voice my disagreements with them, but I am glad they are providing the infrastructure for shoots such as MDS. It's not fading for me.

AnnieLee
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Cactus Cris on October 07, 2004, 09:32:10 PM: I don't think it is fadeing just change'n. When I started in 92 the Az. groups had 30+ at the matches. Now we get 100 +- each month and there are shoots every weekend within a 2 hr. drive- not even counting Tucson clubs. The mood has changed too- more compete for prizes less compete for fun. The pards I shoot with want to do the best they can but don't whine about it if they don't. That is one reason our "posse" is always full. We have a good time and razz each other big time.
To me SASS is getting real impersonal and becoming a distant group. If it weren't for Tex, I wouldn't have any contact with the WB at all. ( He shoots on my posse at WR) I see them at EOT & WR and talk to them very briefly about the cart corral, but that is about it.
So I would have to say it isn't fade'n but going in a different direction ( What Tex's article in the Cronicle is about)
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Col. Riddles on October 07, 2004, 11:05:22 PM: I don't think SASS is fading, just going through some growing pains.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Camille Eonich on March 29, 2006, 09:38:23 AM: A year and a half later......

What do you think now?
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Four-Eyed Buck on March 29, 2006, 10:12:30 AM: Still more growing pains. Gettin' so large that it's hard to control everything. For me, the people are still tops......Buck 8) ::) ;)
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: RRio on March 29, 2006, 11:21:58 AM: Quote from: Camille Eonich on March 29, 2006, 09:38:23 AM
A year and a half later......

What do you think now?

I believe it is fading. Since the last post on this thread (October 07,2004), all 5 of the people that I recruited into SASS have dropped out, along with myself.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Arcey on March 29, 2006, 11:46:38 AM: Buck's 'people' part. Yeah. They're as good as it gets. Thing is, most of the time the folks I'm shootin' with may or may not be SASS members. I wouldn't know the difference. Heck, I'm a SASS member but I don't wear the badge. Ain't sure where it is. 13901 - I could prolly sell it fer a good gain on eBay.

The game we play is important to me. SASS can do what it wants. The game is solid. Good core of folks where I play. They were there last month 'n they'll be there next month.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Rascal Ralph on March 29, 2006, 11:55:00 AM: SASS is over 70,000. Our club just had a record shoot attendance for March. Good clubs grow, poor ones fade. the members make the club. If your's is failing, maybe your part of the problem. Our TG told me the worst thing about SASS is the "wire". After reading all the bitchen, I agree. The best part of our club is the work partys, and most of us show up! Sass started the best thing going, it's not failing.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Marshal harpoluke on March 30, 2006, 12:09:44 AM: ;D

I don't think so, just changin as it grows. People may need to be patient with each other. ;D

:o

8)
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Highlander999 on March 30, 2006, 01:22:54 PM: SASS or Cowboy Shooting or Victorian Era Shooting (my idea of a better name for it) was great for two reasons:

1. I love the era, I love the message it sends, mainly based on the old Western Serials, and even movies today. Honor and Integrity. Just as when Woodrow took Gus to Clara's orchard as he promised.

2. I have always loved the firearms of the era.

I don't blame the "Gamers" as we call them, but I was there for the Lifestyle, and the Commeraderie. The Gamers to me made it another competitive event in my life (all week long). And everyone wants to win every now and then.

So, I take my pistols and rifles, they hang on my walls, I look at them, and I still shoot them. But I shoot them by myself or with a few friends. It seems like becoming organized usually creates more issues.

Much like when we were kids and we all took our balls and gloves and bats to the ball diamond and played ball. Then a parent got the great idea, let's coach them, and then they can compete and learn to win.. And then we structured it, and then it became a "We've got to win" situation, and we didn't let the kids that couldn't play as well play.

Believe me, I DON"T BELIEVE IN MEDIOCRITY, nor in having a "Wall of Medicrity" in the home. But for goodness sakes, this was just supposed to be fun. Then prizes got involved, and maybe more. It became much more like work than play.

I'd rather go ride my horse in the mountains, and shoot my pistols or rifle on the farm...

I do miss the commeraderie, and sometimes just show up to watch at the shoots.
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Birdgun Quail on March 30, 2006, 02:29:02 PM: I'm putting on more pounds and from what I see of others, SASS ain't fading, we're getting fatter!

Seriously, I think SASS is growing just fine. But what do I know, I've only been playing CAS for a little over a year and I've enjoyed every bit of it!

I don't worry about the small stuff--just go out and have fun with a bunch of folks that dress up and play cowboy like a bunch of kids. Ain't life grand!
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Trap on March 31, 2006, 02:47:32 PM: Highlander999,
You need to take a look at NCOWS! jt
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Camille Eonich on March 31, 2006, 06:20:52 PM: Quote from: Highlander999 on March 30, 2006, 01:22:54 PM

I don't blame the "Gamers" as we call them, but I was there for the Lifestyle, and the Commeraderie. The Gamers to me made it another competitive event in my life (all week long). And everyone wants to win every now and then.

So what I am reading is actually that your own competiveness took away the fun. People came along that had more desire and more drive than you did and started beating you. Since you were no longer winning and didn't want to put more time into practicing so that you could get better you stopped playing at all?

I think that this is where a lot of the demand to change rules and add rules comes from. The people who say that they are just in it for the fun of it really do want to win sometimes and since they don't want to work that hard at it, that takes the fun out, then they want to try to stop the people who do work hard at from doing as well as they do. When I go to the SASS wire and read, it seems to me that those people who are asserting the most that they don't care about winning and that they are there purely for the fun are the ones that are causing the most fuss.

Then again that's just the way that I read it over there and that doesn't mean that everybody else is reading it that way. :)
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: Mustang Gregg on March 31, 2006, 08:04:27 PM: FADIN'??
Maybe for some clubs, but not that I can see.
Still gettin' serious new shooters every match.
MG
Title: Re: Is SASS fading? If so, why?
Post by: ColonelFlashman on April 01, 2006, 12:08:49 PM: To many "Gamesters" that have to Win @ all costs by using Dubious means even though it's w/ in the Rules, their Sincophants & the Sellers that make their "Gamester" Gear & kits to keep them happy.

They do not understand the Real Meaning of the Spirit of the Game, Nor the True meaning of the Cowboy Way.