Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Major Matt Lewis on October 31, 2005, 09:23:06 PM
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Good Evening Folks. I have had a thought rattling around in my Brain Housing Group for a little while. This weekend, I was getting some feed back from a shooter, that the GAF Muster was unlike any Cowboy Action Match he had shot. I had to agree with him. It is my intent to simulate 19th Century Combat. So that means, I write a match that is intentionally physcially and mentally demanding. Combat is very taxing. Anyway, in an attempt to ensure that future GAF Muster participants are cognizant that they are in for a unique shooting experience, I am thinking of coining the term Frontier Military Action Shooting. What are y'alls thoughts on the subject?
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Hits the nail right on the head!
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I don't know Major Matt
I think the term might be a little verbose. A more concise description of what we did this weekend is "FUN" ;D ;)
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FMAS, naw looks like the acronym of something you'd arm the French Army with. ;D
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That purdy much 'splains it.
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Like I told ya, better trade mark it fast, before SASS does.
Grizzle Bear
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I like the concept and it is definitely something to consider.
As many have discovered, the Muster is not just another CAS match. It closely follows NCOWS shooting rules, but that is about the extent of it.
We only shoot one pistol and a rifle and have multiple reloads per stage. The targets are small and spaced farther apart and at a greater distance than most CAS matches, making them harder to hit. Times to finish a stage frequently can be counted in minutes. GAF shoots are a challenge to the shooter and the gun.
Lets discuss the concept.
Del, any name we come up with is negotiable. Being an ol' FAC in my younger days, "Frontier Army Combat Shooting" (FACS) appeals to me. :D
US Scout
Chief of Staff, GAF
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Hey,
Frontier Army Combat Shooting has a pretty good ring to it.....
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I've heard some CAS matches jokingly referred to as "IPSC with Spurs"
Maybe the Muster's nickname could be "Bullseye with Boots" ;D ;D
It deserves a different name. You invented another sport Major Matt.
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My post was tongue in cheek only. ;D
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I am in full agreement that this year's GAF Muster should not be called "Cowboy action shooting". It was far more fun, more realistic, more challanging, etc. etc. etc. Having smallish targets at greater remove was really nice!!! So was shooting from "cover"!! Not having a a bunch of sitting shotgun targets was a major plus all by itself.
I do think that incorporation of some moving targets for rifle and revolver would be a really nice touch. Ditto for some even more challanging targets, say at much greater distances, that are bonus targets (which was the case on one stage).
Lars
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Scout,
I would only correct you on one thing. The over all authenticity of the Muster well passed even the most hardened scrupulation. The Marshal even remarked about how impressed he was. So, we do not only fall within NCOWS Shooting rules, but also well exceed the levels of authenticity required to participate at an NCOWS event.
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Lou Graham said "...Maybe the Muster's nickname could be "Bullseye with Boots" Not a bad idea! How about capitalizing on the Mil-theme and go with something like "BULLSEYES WITH BOOTS AND SADDLES" or just simply "BOOTS & SADDLES", don't think there are any other forums or groups using that one even though it is a 'given' to the lingo and period. Of course, "The MUSTER" will from this point on always be known as the singular name for a Victorian-Mil-themed shooting event associated with GAF & NCOWS and it also has a nice ring to it.
I'm sure others will come up, its a nomenclaturally-challenging opportunity jist waiting to grab us!
Best regards and good thinking!
'Ol Gabe
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How about...
Grand Army of the Frontier shooting competition with only one pistol and one rifle and several unknown guns besides plus lots of reloads from behind cover and doing it all in a Victorian era uniform, or GAFSCWOOPAORASUGBPLORFBCADIAIAVEU for short. ;D
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Maybe something like "Old Time Sharpshooters", "Victorian Sharpshooters", "Make each shot count!", etc. would capture the essence?
Lars
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Maj Lewis,
I didn't discount the authenticity of the uniforms in my statement with regard to NCOWS, but was just trying to make a point that the GAF Muster is not your usual CAS match.
Changing the name to be more descriptive of what we do at a match might help others understand a little better what to expect when they get to the Muster for the first time.
US Scout
Bvt Col of Marines
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Frontier Action Skirmishing (or Shooting) and Tactics - FAST
Motto: "If'n you can shoot it fast, it ain't FAST !"
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I do think that incorporation of some moving targets for rifle and revolver would be a really nice touch. Ditto for some even more challanging targets, say at much greater distances, that are bonus targets (which was the case on one stage).
Lars
Lars....you are sooo cruel!!!! ;D
I like it - Frontier Military Action Shooting - Major....I'm so impressed! :o And I think US Scout got one over on you.... Frontier ARMY Combat Shooting?? and you said..."has a pretty good ring to it"??? Mr. Marine???? Oh....the shame!! ;D ;D ;D ;D Good job Scout!
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Well, since Grand Army of the Frontier is the relavent organization, maybe "Grand Old Army" shooting would fit?
I am now gonna go take cover, just in case a navy gunboat or a buncha marines are passing by.
Lars
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LOL!
Well,
Everybody knows what Action Shooting is, so I want to keep with that. Frontier Military kind of sets the theme. Specifically Military, but since this is an International Event (I know, I know, Jack is the only one that comes from Canada), the Frontier can be any nation. Follow me here. Part of the GAF creed is to allow the portrait of all nations services in the period of 1860-1902 (roughly). NCOWS allows us to go up to 1900. So, if a person wanted to do an impression of an Imperial German impression, the door is open. Or even that of a French Forgien Legionare. So there is the Frontier.
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It is what it is. A GAF match. Grand Army of the Frontier shootin' match. Don't y'all get silly with acromyms now.
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I think we're on to something here.
This might be a good time for Departments to begin considering holding regional or state GAF matches using the examples set by the two previous Musters, even if they are only day shoots.
US Scout
Chief of Staff
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Great idea, Scout!
Or even a 2 or 3 stage side-match at an already scheduled NCOWS shoot.
That would also help to get more folks familiar with the difference in style from a regular CAS match.
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So it begins....LOL! My plan is in motion...
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Lou,
That is a great idea - a side match or two at some of the bigger matches. Put up the targets, have it staffed by some GAF members in uniform, and let 'er rip!
US Scout
Chief of Staff
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I have to admit that I didn't shoot anywhere near as well as I usually do or even would have liked, but on the other hand I shot better than I expected given that I had not attended a match since the last Muster and hadn't shot but maybe 100 rounds since then. My physical therapist was pleased that my condition didn't deteriorate as a result of shooting guns for a day.
I like the format of the Muster. I also like that it brings out the original values that CAS was started for in the first place. Elsewhere in CAS City, some of the old timers have expressed concern that CAS is slowly (or perhaps rapidly) becoming what it was created to avoid. We're seeing race guns appear, and stages set up to accomodate the serious speed shooters over those who attend for the challenge and fun of shooting "old time" guns in a competative but still friendly environment. In many ways, CAS has begun losing the "cowboy spirit" that so many of us joined SASS or NCOWS to experience and enjoy. The Muster still has that feeling of comradery that makes (or made) shooting CAS so much fun.
What we call our interpretation of the CAS sport is unimportant, as long as it grasps the concept of what the GAF represents. What is important is that we maintain our standards, whether it be for shooting or uniforms or camp authenticity or whatever, and that everyone realizes that the sum of the GAF is far greater than its individual components, members or interests.
I would hope that with the increased turnout at the 2005 Muster over the 2004 Muster, that the 2006 will likewise see a continued growth, to include both new participants and the return of those who attended in 2005.
US Scout
Chief of Staff, GAF
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Lou,
The call for GAF sidematches at either NCOWS or SASS events would be cool. However, an administrative nightmare.
As a matter of fact, I just about reached my saturation point this year with 54 registered shooters. I would like to put out an open call for volunteers who would be willing to help work on the match this coming year. Folks who will commit to being in Ackley on September 27th to set up the range and shoot the match on September 28th and help with sidematches and the main match. I think that it is also safe to say that with the good press that we will be getting and the positive feedback here at CAS City, we will have more folks this year. I take great pride in building a quality product. Next year, I need some help to do it.
A special thanks to John Torrence, Dave Sielert, Rob Brannon, Dave Birk for helping set up the range. I would also like to thank Mike Tathum and John Torrence for submitting ideas for scenarios. Then I added my value add ;) Yup, every time you crawled or jumped, that was me...He he he
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"Frontier Military Action Shooting" seems to be as good a term as any, in my view!
That name reflects one of the primary underlying concepts of GAF - i.e. to encompass the military of all nations during the Victorian era, when frontiers were being opened by various nations all around the world - Africa, Asia, Australasia, etc., as well as in the Americas ...
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I like the title "Frontier Military Action Shooting". But I still Think FUN is a good description ;) ;D
Whatever we call it, I plan to be there next Sept.
(It's sooo KEWL, I get be be in at the ground floor of a new movement!!!!!!!!! :o)
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Folks,
I do like the idea of Scout's to have a side match at events where folks can come up and shoot a Trapdoor, a Krag, a Lee Navy or a Lee-Enfield. Doing so while wearing a Victorian military uniform would indeed be like living a John Ford Western. Perhaps the side match can become REALLY interesting by having a few pairs of uniform trousers and shirts for the offering to those whom wish to find out how it is to shhot while wearing wool...
Another possible idea would be to create a side match as a single stage mini-GAF-style event. Let folks see how physical Victorian military combat truly was. Merely suggesting...
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I'd like to see a downloaded "Battle rifle" class. IE a 2 gun class, but using documented milspec weapons, 1866-1900. Trapdoors, Spencers, Martini Henrys, Sniders, Krags, Lee-Metfords/Enfield Mk 1s, M1888 Mausers, etc. Must be "Rifle" caliber, but using low velocity lead bullet loads to avoid target damage. Uniforms to match the weapons. Don't show up for the Rough Riders with a Mauser.
My only provision would be no stripper clips. A simple tecnical limitation, easily enforced. I'd like to eliminate Mauser 98s, but I suspect they're too popular. Want to use that 98 with your picklehaube? Fine, no stripper clips. Divide them per NCOWs rules, IE powder and handgun style.
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Hang in there Rattlesnake. I've looked up Ackley on the map and giving it serious consideration for 2006. Can't let you be the only Canuck year after year. I'm already hooked on the military theme and these discussions are weakening me more.
NTJ ;D
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Well we wouldn't want to get too many crossing the border at once. We might be mistaken for an invasion force. HAW!
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Nine Toe:
I'll keep plugging away at you, sir! Would be good to have a countryman there, certainly ... I have worn my khaki field service dress, at least some of the time, just to avoid the " everyone seems to be uniformed in blue, grey or khaki, what's with the lone fool in red?" scenario!
Sgt. Drydock:
A "main battle rifle (downloaded)" class would be great! So, shall we start lobbying for it? I didn't have quite enough time prior to Muster to get any cast-bullet cartridges loaded for my "Long Lee-Enfield" rifle (externally the same as the Lee-Metford rifle adopted in 1888 - and a real "peach" she is - see below) or I'd have had her along this year. (Got as far as getting bullets cast, and a bunch sized and lubed, but then ran out of time - so I should certainly get a load finalized and be "good to go" by next year!
(http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/mle_01.jpg)
(http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/mle_02.jpg)
(http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/mle_03.jpg)
My 1890's small arms could then be - and quite properly for the North West Frontier of India, the Sudan, South Africa, even the Yukon - a "Pistol, Revolver, Webley. 455 inch" and a "Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Enfield, .303 inch" ....)
(http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/cigaretteterri15.jpg)
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I think the idea has potential, but remember, baby steps boys....
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How did I miss this? This is a great topic.
Slim
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Lovely Jack, just lovely. If nothing else, you could use it for a sidematch. I'm still waiting for my Krag parts to show up.
Then what do I do? Shoot my Trapdoor, or shoot the Krag? Ah, the agony of such decisions . . .
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I reckon this is one of those delightful dilemas....
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... Then what do I do? Shoot my Trapdoor, or shoot the Krag? Ah, the agony of such decisions . . .
Well, you could shoot one the first day and the other the next day ... attired in the proper "period" uniforms for each, of course ....
Sidematch use was why I was hoping to get suitable .303 rounds loaded and tested in time for Muster 2005 ... but the fact that I'd only have been able to use it for 10 rounds was why that project ended up in the "low priority" category ....
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I loaded the Krag ammo we used at the Muster. 168 grain bullet, cast from straight wheel weights. Gas checked. Over 12 grains of Unique. Velocity should have been about 1200 fps. Did absolutely nothing to the target except wear off multiple layers of paint. Was not aware of any bounce-back. I think this is very practical. And Major Matt knows I like to see unusual firearms brought out and used!
Grizzle Bear
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Griz,
That is a trait that both of us share.
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At the Muster was the first time I had shot a Krag or a Trapdoor.
Slim
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How did you like the experience?
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How did you like the experience?
It was great! Made me want to go buy one of each.
Slim
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Aaahhhh .... but for the ne plus ultra of mid-Victorian-era rifle shooting experiences, you really need to touch off a few from a .577/.450 Martini-Henry! :o ..... :-\ ..... ;D
(http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/rorke'~2.jpg)
Perhaps, if things go well, I can round up enough brass to have extra cartridges loaded for next year's Muster. (Mind you at US$5.00-$8.00 per casing ... Could be I'd have to bring my dies and a "field loading station ... ::) )
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That'd be kewl. ;D
Slim
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RJR, Kind Sir,
'IF', mind you 'IF', enough brass could be located down here, do you have a portable reloading kit to do same? if powder & primers were 'donated' or 'sponsored', what type would you prefer for the loads, etc.? Enquiring 'Muster Sponsor Minds' would like to know!
Best regards and please check your other posts for my e-pics!
'Ol Gabe
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I'll have Milspec BP Trapdoor carbine loads for anyone want to touch a few off.
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That'd be kewl. ;D
Slim:
Just to put things into perspective (partly since you mention that was your first time shooting a trapdoor) here is a wee comparison shot depicting the two British Empire military rifle cartridges (albeit these are in modern drawn brass cases, rather that the original composite coiled-brass cases) that were in use contemporaneously with the U.S. .50-70 and .45-70 Govt. cartridges:
(http://members.memlane.com/gromboug/wimpca~2.jpg)
Left: Snider-Enfield .577 (circa 1866 to 1873 as the primary British round - and for much longer in Canada, which kept the S-E as its primary longarm until adoption of the .303 Magazine Lee-Enfield rifle in 1896.)
Center: U.S. .45-70 Govt.
Right: Martini-Henry .577/.450 - so-called because it used essentially the same base as the .577 round, lengthened and necked down to .450 cal. - service load 85 gr. "R.F.G.2" (Rifle, Fine Grain, No. 2) powder, 480 gr. bullet 12:1 lead:tin.
'Ol Gabe:
Mmmmm ... for "full meal deal" field loading, I have a setup using an RCBS single-stage press, though I'd need a sturdy bench to clamp/bolt it down onto (or at least a full-size Black & Decker "Workmate" or the like to clamp it into.) Alternatively, I can do basic "table-top reloading, though with that method the cases don't get resized nor the bullets crimped into the case necks, so some problems can start to develop, especially after two or three reloadings ....
The powder which I am currently using is Hodgdon Triple 7 (can't remember which granulation at present, though I think it was 2F.) However, full "mil-spec" loads would be best loaded with good black powder, I suppose. I am currently using Federal Large Rifle primers, IIRC (am responding to this from my office, so don't have access to my loadingstuff ...)
Tell me more .... ;)
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Thats a nice idea Jack. Spend the first day with the Trapdoor carbine (250 grain bullet, 1/2" wad, 40 grains FFG) and my 7.5" Colt, BP loaded, 1870s uniforms. The next day use the Krag, the 5.5" Colt, SAW uniforms. Great fun! I think you'ld have to figure out how to download the Snider, you'ld have the devil of a time downloading that big bottleneck Martini round! I suspect some fiber wads would do the trick on the Snider. www.circlefly.com
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After thinking about this some more, I might, just might like to add one additional rule: repeaters should have double the round count of single shots. IE idealy this would mean single shots fire one round per rifle target, with repeaters double tapping each rifle target. This has a basis in history, in that during the Phillipines campaign, pickets would often have both a krag and a Trapdoor, in that if the Krag failed to stop a Moro, the large slow single shot surely would! (Just don't miss!)
I would like this, as it would allow the class to be inclusive of all these weapons, as opposed to having to divide them up, SS vs. repeaters. Of course, this would also allow me to shoot all my guns in one class! ;D
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Sgt. D, you make a very good point - especially so that a competitor could "mix'n'match" firearms at the same shoot - and such a rule would hopefully prevent the Class from turning into an "arms race" worse than anything SASS has experienced! ("Gotta get myself the the best, quickest repeating rifle I can manage to justify within the allowed timeframe!")
Mind you, I suppose that it may be impossible to completely eliminate all elements of such competitiveness/gamesmanship. I guess (as Maj. Matt intimated) creation of such a shooting class will definitely require considerable thinking out of the various implications .... I know where you are coming from with your hope of avoiding a subdivision of the class into single shot and repeater, but (to play the Devil's Advocate a bit, here) perhaps such a subdivision would be unavoidable, when all considerations are taken into account ....
On the "downloading issue" - As you say, the Snider round is relatively simple to load down, using wads or the like. Another method which has been used to reduce effective case capacity is inserting a thickish tube/collar (cardboard or whatever) inside the case body, coming up to the point that the bullet base is seated to. This method can also work with the M-H cartridge, though it is a bit more "fiddly" to accomplish.
Actually, a very good method of downloading these big-bore BP cartridges has been developed, which works very effectively in the bottlenecks such as the .577/.450 while avoiding the danger of a "plug" forming in the neck if an inert filler like Cream of Wheat is used. That is to mix equal volumes of black powder (or substitute powder being used) with your Cream of Wheat (or whatever), and use that as a filler above even much-reduced powder charges in the base of the cartridge. The filler is then not "inert", but rather the propellant mixed with it combusts along with the main powder charge, preventing the filler from compacting .... One does have to factor into one's charge calculations the amount of powder mixed with the filler, however. There has been a lot of discussion about this method, and the success achieved with it, over the past few years on the "British Militaria Forums" - where a bunch of Snider- and Martini-shooting maniacs like me hang out ... http://p223.ezboard.com/bbritishmilitariaforums (http://p223.ezboard.com/bbritishmilitariaforums)
(Matter of fact, the Martini-Henry rounds I shot in the Long-Range Big Bore Single Shot rifle event at Muster this year were somewhat reduced loads using this method - total propellant equivalent of about 60 grns of powder, rather than the full service load of 85 grns.)
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Sgt. Drydock:
For the Kansas Vigilance Committee's Two-Gun Shoot, we allow single-shots along with the repeaters. We have experimented with this and found that repeaters have a 3 to 1 advantage in speed, at least at the ranges we shoot. So our usual procedure is to have three rifle targets, so those using repeaters sweep them 3 times, and those using a single-shot sweep them once. This evens things out, and is easier than having two different classes.
Grizzle Bear
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RJR, Sgt. Drydock, All,
If this concept reaches fruition, I would be happy to help sponsor some supplies for same reloads and I'm sure we can isolate a bench/table at the General Store where I'll have some things. We'll work it out if all goes as you envision, I'm sure M.M. is cogitating on all the concepts posted above and will make his decision on safety and all other considerations, etc.
Best regards and good reloading!
'Ol Gabe
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Thanks fer the cartridge comparisons, Rattlesnake Jack.
Slim
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Yep, but I'll be thats lever actions vs. single shots. My guess in a "Battle Rifle" Class it would be bolts vs. single shots, and the bolts are slower than levers. Ennyways, thinking about it, I think I'd just divide them by NCOWs normal powder/style split. That would pretty much put the SSs and the Spencers together, with the Bolts in the Smokeless side of the house.
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Frontier ARMY Military Action Shooting?
What about us 'ole Leathernecks out here?
Yeah....I know........We're the targets!
Great idea!
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Haek,
You will find us Gyrenes well represented here. That is why there is no Army in the title.
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I Like This! If you need to vote then I vote a resounding YES!
Are Cannon allowed?
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Huzzah!