Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Uberti, Pietta and other SAA Clones => Topic started by: Marshal Halloway on August 25, 2020, 01:11:10 PM

Title: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Marshal Halloway on August 25, 2020, 01:11:10 PM



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA8bq3E3aOg


Description from YouTube/Cimarron: With so many "experts" dismissing Cimarron Firearms Co. as just another importer, we at Cimarron feel the need to educate the public on what our contribution to Replica Western Firearms actually is. Every day a misinformed historian is claiming to know for a fact that Cimarron is exactly like any other importer, and Cimarron's products are just like everybody else's. Then these guys challenge us, usually on our own facebook posts, saying, "prove me wrong". Of course, we do prove them wrong, and they still refuse the truth! Just as soon as we're done educating that potential customer, another one is popping up saying the same thing. It's like playing Whack-a-Mole all the time! Cimarron's President, Mike Harvey is greatly responsible for bringing most Replica Western Firearms that are available today to market. Why? Passion for the Old West!! Passion for firearms!! Also, because by the late 70's, Mike and Mary Lou Harvey got tired of waiting for somebody else to do it. So please enjoy this spirited history lesson from Mike Harvey himself!
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on August 25, 2020, 01:35:37 PM
Thanks Marshal !!

Mike
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Navy Six on August 25, 2020, 05:50:07 PM
Thank You Marshal, that was interesting. I always liked the "the story behind the story" details. However, after watching this I want to buy a bunch more files! :)
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on August 25, 2020, 07:45:17 PM
 Well I talked to Cimarron a couple of days ago and they "swear" they didn't offer this but I have a new '60 Army (Uberti) that has a silver plated trigger guard (beautiful!!)!! It will get a Kirst Pietta gated conversion cyl.  and it will be a regular "appendage" for me!!! It was actually one of three "new in the box" revolvers that I acquired for my "out of the box" tuned S.A.'s I will be offering soon. I'm using the Pietta conversion because it accepts regular 45C length cartridges. It really is a beautiful handgun!!

Mike
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Buckaroo Lou on August 26, 2020, 11:35:10 AM
Interesting history. Thanks for sharing.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Marshal Halloway on August 26, 2020, 12:45:15 PM


Cimarron’s Mike Harvey Harvey takes issue with “fake gun news”

https://www.cascity.com/cimarrons-mike-harvey-harvey-takes-issue-with-fake-gun-news/9196/ (https://www.cascity.com/cimarrons-mike-harvey-harvey-takes-issue-with-fake-gun-news/9196/)
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Abilene on August 26, 2020, 01:30:59 PM
Thanks Marshall.  This was interesting (Mike vents at gun writers, hehe) but the Cimarron You-tube channel has a 3-part "The Story of Cimarron" and part 3, "The Italian Connection" actually goes into more detail about the changes made to the SAA reproductions and the unique Cimarron features, with a little less rambling.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svAkrE83lZU&t=534s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svAkrE83lZU&t=534s)
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 22, 2021, 04:05:14 PM
Mike Harvey, set the standard for today’s replicas, but in my opinion, from a very personal perspective. He got the guns made as he thinks they should be, not as they were.( and probably the old timers were rigth, not Harvey).


What Harvey seems not to understand, is that  no one in those old times wanted a weak hammer spring with  slow hammer fall...so they were not obsessed with “slick actions”.

No one wanted “speed”, even less the military, when shooting a revolver. They wanted a hammer that will crush any percussion cap or primer, and that’s why, if you observe an original 1858 Remington hammer spring, they are extremely thick and stiff...and the same in a Nagant, a Webley, a Colt SAA or a SW no3. They are hard to cock.

“Slick actions” are a thing of the postmodernist aficionado.....introduced by Harvey as an “advance”..not present in original revolvers of the time.

Today, and thanks in a great deal to Harvey, no one in the USA will buy a revolver with a stiff hammer spring. Yes, the action will be  delicious to cock, but that comes at price, like everything in life : a slow hammer,   in a serious bulls eye target shooting competition, where you shoot at a distance 25 meters, one hand hold, that doesn’t forgive a single mistake in sigths alignment, means less points...as any shake and unwanted movements of the hand will be multiplied on target,

Then people will show me their targets proving how accurate their revolvers are,,,,shooting two hand held, many times supported, in their backyard. What is ok in “ones backyard” is not valid in competition. And I am talking here  toabout “practical accuracy”, what you can get one hand hold, not “potential accuracy”, what the gun can get if you were a robot.

When it comes to the finishes. he obsessed everybody with the wrong idea that corners had to be sharp and square at all times, and that some modern production Colts were, in that aspect, inferior to the italian clones..a quite arguable idea...specially when the finish in modern Italian replicas is not as  durable as Colts,  but people still believe that.

 in my opinion, importers and distributors  should have focused on improving riflings instead, not allways adequate for  black powder shooting in the modern SAA replicas....and in making a bigger variety of clones, not only the same clone in different “invented” versions, but it’s a business, I understand that....if you can make people buy the same gun 3 times, it pays off.

I say improving the riflings, because all original guns are far more accurate than the Italian clones, both in the cap and ball and the Single action. as Mr Harvey does nor practice serious bulls eye shooting, ( he shoots at 20 yards for accuracy  while the international distance is one hand held 25  meters and 50 meters, distances that “dont forgive”), he never paid attention  to this aspect.

 Example: Inhave an old Orbea Ona, a copy of a SW double action revolver, far more accurate than any Uberti  Schofield or SAA I have owned, 2, and tested, several. Deep progressive riflings versus modern Italian clone riflings.

The final result is a Colt SAA and. Remington 1858 clone very good for CAS, but useless for serious bulls eye and MLAIC internacional competitions...unless one removes many  of “Harvey’s improvements”, in actions.

The Germans and the Spanish took a opposite path when they built their Feinkwerbau and Santa Barbara 1858 clones, as Harvey was not there “advising”, but collectosrs and target shooters instead ( Santa Barbara hired a World MLAIC champion and the Army Museum to develope their 1858)and they made super accurate revolvers...they centered on riflings, chamber/ muzzle diameter relationship, steel quality and insisted on quite hard hammer springs.....they didn’t pay much attention to case hardenied frames, nitre blued barrels and cilinders, and super smooth hammers.

The Santa Barbara revolver was the most accurate revolver I ever had, rivaling my SW K14....much time spent inside the barrel and cilinder, by its designer, finally paid off.

The result: top revolvers. And the latter, the Santa, cost little more than a Uberti in its time or around that.
 

On the other side, we have the same gun, the SAA,  in 150 versions...overwhelming and monotone,,,..( still waiting for a British Bulldog replica).

As far as I know, I must admit that the manufacturer has the last word when making “other clones”. The itlalians rejected to make a Merwin Hulbert replica...too expensive and required much investment.

Talking about clones, here is clone by Orbea, extracted from “Colt  Brevette Revolvers”, whose authors, Ron Paxton, and Roy Marcott, who, by the way, experts as they are, no doubt, however failed  to identify its origins, despite de clear Orbea Trade Mark. and the barrel legend in basque ( reading: “ this is the strongest revolver made in the Basque Country) and the well documented literarure written about them in Europe ...... a result, I take in a relative way the rest of the info contained in this book,


Yes, the basque made this “advanced” replica, 140 years ago.....Low Hammer, simplified action with less parts, 1858 type,  progressive rifling, ligth weigth. I prefer this revolver, to 3 Italian replicas....











Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 22, 2021, 06:34:26 PM
By the way,, every time Imstopped by their booth at the Shot Show, in the happy pre Covid times, they  treated me in the nicest way, suppling all info requested.

Serious people who deserve all the sucess they have achieved, though I have a different concept, more purist, and less user friendly, than them about classic revolvers,

Cimarron and Italian replicas are to the West, what Errol Flynn was to the real Custer or to the authentic Robin Hood....a romantic view..sometimes literally invented. The real ones, were a bit, only a bit, different, and probably, better.

I am not the only one saying that...many World MLAIC champions agree with me.


Me Harvey “invented” far West guns that never existed such as he conceives them. That’s why many gun writers and historians don’t care much about his replicas.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Abilene on February 22, 2021, 07:53:43 PM
Well, bullseye shooters are very, very much in the minority of purchasers of Cimarrons.  The vast majority of shooters will prefer a lighter hammer spring than standard.  And for those that want a faster hammer fall, springs are cheap and easy to install. 

FYI, Cimarron has had pretty much zero input on Ubertis 1858 replicas.  Mike did have some input on the Remington conversions, primarily just getting Uberti to make it.

Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 22, 2021, 09:58:12 PM
I just put the Feinkwerbau and SB 1858 clones as an example of how to make a good replica.
About the 1858 cartridge conversions, none of them was made in 45 colt..as a result, Uberti had to oversize the frame and make it by forging and electroerosion machining...so what one  is buying is, literally, an invented bigger 1858 made with  high tech industrial processes.

People will buy what they brainwash them to buy. Most people buying clones are not CAS shooters neither, but people who love Old West guns.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 22, 2021, 10:16:03 PM
Mike Harvey didnt improve italian clones ...except aesthecally..he just adapted the guns to CAS.....to speed. Nothing to do with the real old West guns.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on February 23, 2021, 07:49:15 AM
Well,  honestly, I'm glad we don't drive Model T's and Model A's today!! When improvements are introduced it gives you options.  It sounds like some folks want to MAKE folks like the old original setup .  .  .  period (a little "brainwashing)!!!  There's not a thing wrong with making improvements in strength, materials used, ease of operation .  .  .    Some folks with arthritic thumbs may not want a heavy mainsprings .  .  .  they are customers too!! 
  Today you can pretty much get what you want, but it seems that some are really ticked off because options are available.  If all reproductions were made exactly like what Mr. llanerosolitario wants, the industry would die.

 By the way, just like faster speeds, independent suspension and computer engine management systems being the norm today, it only makes sense to make your "hobby interests" more enjoyable as well!!
 Contrary to popular belief, you CAN reduce mainspring tension and still have fast lock time  .  .  . if you know how !!!  Lol!!

Mike
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Coffinmaker on February 23, 2021, 10:13:45 AM

 :)  Well Heck   ;)

One must understand, Opinions are like some Body Parts.  Everyone has them.  I find myself in complete agreement with 45 Dragoon.  The Replicas (there are NO clones) being made today are just fine.  The "out of the box" mainsprings are sufficiently heavy.  Duplicating the original Colt and Remington is just plain silly.

It is also to be considered, the Colt SAA nor the Remington cartridge guns were never built for, nor intended for, Bullseye competition shooting.  Perhaps excepting the Colt Bisley, purpose built to compete in exactly ONE competition.

Comparing a Finewerkbau to a Daisy Air Gun is just as silly.  guns built to different purpose. 

If all you have chosen to do is find fault with practically everything and truly understanding nothing, perhaps you should find a different subject and a more amenable forum.  Just.  Go.  Away.   
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 23, 2021, 04:38:50 PM
I knew that I would not be understood.

Anyway, the question is:

How can it be, that every original gun  from the XIX century, from duelling pistols to specially Colt and SW revolvers, has always been, in general, more accurate, if rifling in good condition,  than all the Italian replicas I have owned?
 
Examples:

Orbea n3 basque copy  of SW model 3 in 44 Russian,,..far more accurate and far more reliable with BP than the Uberti n3 and Uberti Schofields. A HQ copy...heat blued, unbreakable parts inside, progressive rifling....no interruptions when firing BP.

Ludwig Loewe Sw copy of model 3,,,,impressive craftsmanship...far better finished than the Italian copies.

Orbea ONA 455....far more accurate than the two above ....rust blued...unbreakable small parts..progressive rifling,

Remington New model Army,,,far more accurate than Uberti’s..more resistant than Pedersoli’s. Perfect spring tension, progressive rifling. Resistant small parts. Perfect  Chamber dia/ muzzle dia relationship.....unlike Piettas and Ubertis.

Colt 1860 original...better steel and comstruction (forged)  than the butter easy machining steel, cast parts by Pietta. Heat blued in oven. True case color hardened.

Colt SAA original, from 1900...far more accurate than Uberti and Pietta clones with BP. Progressive perfect rifling that stabilizes lead bullets. Deppresive accuracy in the italians, with BP and lead. Fake color case hardened...inferior industrial blueing in the italians.

El Tigre carbine ..more accurate than Armis Chiappa’s....super finished....rust blued, fully forged, unbreakable...gun used by a hunter until recently..made in 1920. Chiapas fake case hardening,,laser cut parts.

What “improvements”? Non progressive Riflings that are far inferior to the old progressive ones? Industrial blueing versus rust or heat blue ( true long time heat blue, not temper blue as in the copies)? “Slick actions”  versus fast hammers?

The clones are not better,,, they are inferior in construction to the old guns, they are less accurate, the small parts break more,...they just bright more, have slickers actions and are avaiable in more options and can shoot smokeless without trouble.

That industry, by the way, has created few jobs in the USA,,,Mike Harvey, like  Bushnell, another american heroe, created a lot of jobs,,,,in foreign lands.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Abilene on February 23, 2021, 05:01:19 PM
I knew that I would not be understood.

Anyway, the question is:

How can it be, that every original gun  from the XIX century, from duelling pistols to specially Colt and SW revolvers, has always been, in general, more accurate, if rifling in good condition,  than all the Italian replicas I have owned? ...

In my opinion, the answer to your question is that you could not afford a modern reproduction made to XIX century specs.  Me neither.  I could afford about 2 or 3 versus the 17 or so that I own.  And the company could not be successful.  Pretty simple, really.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 23, 2021, 05:08:18 PM
This what Hege did to create a superb 1858 replica ( just an example that could work on the SAA, unlike what Harvey’s deep knowledge dictates):

They took a Pietta Frsme, threw away the crappy Pietta barrel, installed a match  barrel instead, modified Pietta chambers so they will match the barrel, and installed a super fast mechanism: it was just exactly what  Remington did in its time, 120 years before.

once again, the original was far superior to the clones. So instead of “improving” the originals, they returned to the origins to make a good revolver.

Harvey never gave importance to the barrels, taken for granted that they were good...as well as to chamber diameters. The result: pretty clones that don’t shoot as well as the originals.
 


Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on February 23, 2021, 08:47:10 PM
I suggest you go into business and produce the kind of revolver you want.  My business is taking the Italian imports and making them mechanically perfect as it can be. Set up with perfect timing, a modern torsion spring action, a light action that my customers want, and very tight tolerances. My customers are happy, I'm happy.  These revolvers don't cost anywhere near what they would cost with all the work I do if it were done at "the factory". Like Abilene says,  most folks wouldn't be able to afford a $2,000.00 +  plinker .  .  .  and that would be just the factory offering.

Mike
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 23, 2021, 08:48:34 PM
In my opinion, the answer to your question is that you could not afford a modern reproduction made to XIX century specs.  Me neither.  I could afford about 2 or 3 versus the 17 or so that I own.  And the company could not be successful.  Pretty simple, really.

Except for the high cost of old times finishes, the price would be the same. The gain twist barrels were standard 140 yearsago...even among belgian and basque clones, they make a big diference and with modern machinery the cost will be the same or little more.

The answer is that Mike Harvey didnt pay attention to this, and brainwashed the customers into thinking that a good quality revolver must:

-have a slick action (wrong, only good for CAS, not for survival or accuracy)

-have square edges (wrong)

-have wonderful polished brigth finishes ( original guns tended to have moderate or low luster blueings, specially rust blue military revolvers).

-only Colts and some Smith and few Rems dominated the gun scenery in the West, so no foreign guns or other domestic designs( wrong).

-original guns were mainly hand made ( false in revolvers).

-the steel is better in replicas than in the originals (not true in cap and balls...Pietta uses softer steels in them than Colt did)


And many of us, just have a different opinion.






-
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on February 23, 2021, 09:53:57 PM
Let me see, the Colts of the 19th century could not handle a 357 mag round, the Co!ts of the 20th century could.  Better materials.
Colts SAA's never been chambered in 44 mag. Uberti's SAA repros have and still are. Better materials.
The Walkers of the 19th century could barely handle the max charges they were set up for, the repro Walkers can shoot max all day. Better materials.
The term "slick action" is too vague .  A "tuned action" means a corrected action, one that won't self destruct, timed and sprung for its intended role.
 An easy functioning SA is absolutely fine for survival.

 And, a Colt SAA costs the same today as it did in 1875  - they aren't falling off of trees!!
 An Italian repro of a Colt SAA cost a 1/4 of the price of a Colt and you can get it in 44 mag.

The point is, they sell, sales keep companies in business. If you can do better .  .  .  do it.

Mike
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 24, 2021, 06:26:43 AM
The steel used in post 1920s Colts and today’s Italian clones is the same more or less.


About cap and balls, Ubertis cost more because they are much better built, good steel and forged parts. They are almost built like a Colt in the old times except for their inferior barrels and finishes.

Pietta, however, since the very beginning, decided to use a trick: to employ easy machining steel, which has an important % of lead n the alloy, to ease production of all his cap and balls...usually from previously cast parts.  That’s why they are cheaper...it’s a product miles away from an original in quality, but they shoot well and the finish is very good and the price excellent. Very good for having fun at the backyard.

Tuning the trigger pull is ok. The obsesión with ligth hammer pulls is a mistake. That comes at a price. But customers in the USA, and only in the USA, are demanding that, and they have became paranoid about it..

It is really paranoia. That’s the word. And that paranoia applies to lever actions too, which is ridiculous....people didn’t shoot fast in the old times...running out of ammo too soon in a figth and your days were over.

The revolvers were conceived to engage the enemy from a long distance, that’s why powerful cartridges and long barrels in military revolvers....long guns were used from a hidden position,,,ammo was expensive..every round counted and people were trained for accuracy.

Harvey changed, for worse, all this concepts. He imagined a Far West that never existed, and built the guns around that wrong idea.

But the real West was far more interesting than all the Hollywood crap and Harvey’s misconceptions and limited view of models employed.

Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on February 24, 2021, 08:16:09 AM
 

 :o

Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Coffinmaker on February 24, 2021, 08:58:05 AM

 >:(  OK   :(

                  DON'T.     FEED.     THE.     TROLL.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: 45 Dragoon on February 24, 2021, 09:51:30 AM
Abzactly !!   ::)
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Baltimore Ed on February 24, 2021, 10:31:45 AM
I like this Cimarron .45 original. It’s not quite a true 1911 as it comes with a too skinny hammer, incorrect safety and a nice wider notched rear sight but it’s not a 1911A1 either as it has no scallops in the frame. It’s a good looking mix. I didn’t like the nickeled hammer, safety or slide lock so I replaced them with blue/black checkered GI parts. I like a wide hammer on a 1911. And of course the cute horsey isn’t quite correct.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: greyhawk on February 24, 2021, 05:57:47 PM
This is a curious argument
Last time I was in the US a resident could walk out of Cabelas with a cap gun and the ammo ready to shoot for under four hundred bucks - the thing would shoot good enough for any backyard plinker straight outta the box . As Coffinmaker and Mike 45 have often said here - if you are a tad bit serious these are KIT GUNS - they need tuning to perform! ... so tune em!!

I bought a ASM replica of the Colt SAA in 44/40 (lost it to the gun buy back after a couple years but thats another story) it cost me $550 aussie $ - at the time a proper colt was well over $2000 if you could find one - my ASM, 25 yards, off a machine rest at the local pistol club grouped well enough to hold the ten ring
 
Also got a ASM 51 navy cap and ball (still have that one its the "fake - gun they never made" a 45 cal stepped cylinder gun) second hand - it had been built right and tuned before I got it - and again off the rest ten ring group easy . That gun has nice clean shallow groove rifling and a cylinder that matches nicely to the barrel dimensions

My son has an early Walker and an 1860 army, both had deep rifling and misfit (undersize) cylinders - they would shoot ok with filler over the powder - but poorly with a full charge - Groove was .462 - cylinders .452 - I reamed the cylinder of both to .462 we bought a Pedersoli .464 ball mold (the availability of that mold off the shelf tells me this is a common enough problem) both guns now will shoot a good group with full house loads.  If you can hold them they both good enough to shoot high 80's on a bullseye target.   

We dont see Cimmaron guns downunder but we get the bywash - we have importers bring in Uberti, Pedersoli, and Chiappa  repros - the focus here is mostly rifles because handgun ownership is very restricted.

Dunno what mr whatshisname is grumbling about really .........





























Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 25, 2021, 08:45:29 AM
It’s about contribution.


He, Mr Harvey’, thinks that he made something great for the replicas. A great great contribution.

Some of us think, however, that he made something great for his company, but little neat contribution to the replica World, except a huge offer of different variations of the same gun, in the case of the SAA.

Many variations, most invented..

By the way I also owned an ASM Colt SAA...a good revolver that I miss.

At the end, the originals were much better....with exceptions. The ASM revolver could be one exception.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Long Johns Wolf on February 25, 2021, 09:23:23 AM
Well, that is an interesting discussion.
I feel, however, with due respect and from a European point of view this is kind of a comparison of apples to peaches.
I do not know Orbea S&Ws.
But I know (shoot) Feinwerkbau (FWB) Remmies and R&Ss, Santa Barbara (SB) Remmies and of course the famous Belgian Centaures (that were not mentioned).
The FWBs, SBs and Centaures are rugged and accurate C&B revolvers out of the box
They can be made into excellent CAS percussion and conversion guns ... at a price.
But this also applies to 2nd and 3rd gen Colts, Ubertis or ASMs.
I know because I owned them and had some action and conversion jobs done to them.
Piettas I don't know.
I love my Uberti OM SAAs in .44 Spec.  fed only with .44 Colt.
Out of the box they are my pair of reliable and accurate CAS pistols since 2011, never led me down.
And they are accurate up to man size targets up to 150 yards.
And yes, Cimarron FA made the replica industry manufacture their revolvers CAS ready and the contours of the Colt SAAs closer to the originals.
My 5 €-Cents.
Long Johns Wolf
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: llanerosolitario on February 25, 2021, 09:48:33 AM
I have a Centarure, by the way. 

My quite critical position does not apply to importers only. In my opinion, some companies have made huge contributions to the replica industry, like, for Instance, Pedersoli....who changed for better the replica World by not inventing anything, but by recreating muzzleloading guns as they really were in their time.

Traditions, a Spanish company ( Ardesa is the owner), however, has been making the same crap for 40 years...nicely made, historically innacurate, mediocre mechanisms, good barrels. Have them really contributed to the replica World? No...because they didn’t raise the standard. They just sell affordable BP guns..but we could live witouth their replicas.

By the way, I talked to them about manufacturing a new replica, as they have the means to make it, I was supplying the engeneering . They were not interested.

in short, I could live without 90% of the  huge list of Cimarron SAA models. They added nothing of value to this field.

Orbea Smith Wesson russian revolvers were the clones of their day. Orbea was not a workshop, but the biggest firearms company at that time in Spain. They made a HQ exact copy of the SW Russian. By closely observing one piece,  blued, I could see no diffferences in quality to the original product. Fine machining, fine blueing.

The owner was shooting it, by the way, a 44 russian revolver. The accuracy, thanks to its progressive rifling, beat the Italian copies.

It is the third time already that I shoot basque and Belgian clones, and they were more accurate than my Ubertis and Piettas that I owned at that time.

I prefer Belgian and basques copies to Ubertis or Piettas.  I stopped some years ago buying them. Mediocre shooters. When they make a new replica, I will buy it, however.


The Schofield and SW russian copies by Uberti have been a bit dissapiointing, in my opinion. The Starr by Pietta too. The steel was too soft in the latest, much better steel in the originals..that compensated the faulty design.







Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: The original bad bob on March 05, 2021, 12:08:21 PM
I own a few Cimmarons a few ASM’s and a few real 1st gen colts.. being a nut case for authenticity my perfect Italian Colt saa replica would be one that has a very heavy beveled cylinder, base pin with the dimple, black powder frame with screw holding in base pin, cone shaped firing pin and authentic roll markings..none of the Italian replicas have all these features .

The ASM Hartford models I own claim to have parts that are interchangeable with original Colts.. this is not true.. I have tried it.. the ASM frames are larger than the colts and Colt back straps and trigger guards don’t fit correctly.. Colt base pins won’t fit the ASM either.. cimmarons have a cylinder that is about twenty thousands of an inch larger than the colts... I have taken to modifying  a few ASMs and Cimmarons to give me the classic features of the old colts that made them so special.
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Big Bear Lowe on March 15, 2021, 09:13:06 AM
I’ve been shooting Cimarrons for many years.  I like ‘em.  Mike Harvey and his crew make some fine (and aesthetically pleasing) firearms.  When I go looking for a new gun, the Cimarron name is a big selling point.  Thanks, Mike, for all you’ve given to this sport (and lifestyle).  I’m your Huckleberry!

ML
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Big Bear Lowe on March 15, 2021, 09:16:10 AM
...........and yes, I know they are made in Italy (mostly)😜!
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: OD#3 on March 15, 2021, 09:16:16 PM
Most of my replica SAA's were Cimarron guns, mostly because they were easily sourced for me at the time on "Grabagun" and weren't noticeably pricier than anything I saw at Taylor's and Co. or some of the other places.  I thought they looked nicer than the average Stoeger imports at the time, but I never got one that was ready to go out of the box.  I had to tweak every one of them to get the timing as precise as any of my USFA's or Colts.  My 1871/72 open top from Cimarron was abominable, and I cursed myself for not sending it back as I labored in the shop to correct its many mechanical faults.  The action was the least of my worries.  It would have been absolutely unusable as received.  Turned out nice in the end, and I learned a lot though.  Next was one of their Thunderer models, which was unevenly timed on several chambers due to someone's presumably having dropped the cylinder on a hard surface which peened up some of the ratchets.  It works well now, but it has the largest cylinder gap of any revolver I own. 

My Cimarron 1866 lever-action was also a disappointment.  I suppose the finish and markings are nicer than other Uberti imports (I have no experience with other importers on the '66), but the action had no evidence of any special attention and was actually worse than an older '73 lever-action I had that was imported by Stoeger.  It was full of machine swarf and polishing compound residue, and the rough internals and heavy action springs looked certain to wear the whole thing out through normal use unless I attended to these. 

If Cimarron charged a real premium on their offerings, I'd really be complaining.  But they do look a bit nicer, and I buy them with the understanding that, as Italian clones, they'll all need tweaking.



   
Title: Re: Cimarron Originals with Mike Harvey - What Makes Cimarron Different?
Post by: Cliff Fendley on March 31, 2021, 09:07:12 AM
In my opinion, the answer to your question is that you could not afford a modern reproduction made to XIX century specs.  Me neither.  I could afford about 2 or 3 versus the 17 or so that I own.  And the company could not be successful.  Pretty simple, really.

Honestly with todays machining I'd say little things like changes to rifling twists and fit could probably be done for very little additional cost but as you say the companys are trying to be successful and keep up with supply and demand and find a point that is just good enough and that is what we are getting.

I personally am pretty disappointed in the accuracy of new Uberti rifles and have 150 year old guns that will out shoot them and I'm convinced it's nothing more than the depth of rifling and twist rate that makes an old dark bore outshoot a new shiney one. It would be just a matter of some research and caring a little for the makers to just set their tooling up right the first time.

I think the ones of us on this and other boards in these discussions are such a small percentage of their overall sales and most people that buy them shoot them very little and most of those just think that's all the better the originals shot. I've even heard people make comments assuming the old ones were inferior to the new ones assuming modern production just makes it better.