Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Crow Choker on December 21, 2022, 09:56:23 AM
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WOW, can't believe its been since Nov 7th since there has been a new post on this Darkside Den. That's 44 days, a tad over six weeks. This section of the CAS Forum used to be the most popular, most posted on from what I've observed over the years. Not sure why the forum is in the shape it's in regarding activity. I used to look forward to clicking on, reading, at times posting. Anymore sometimes 2-3 days go by before I hit the CAS Forum and there hasn't been much activity in any section. Sad to see. Probably alot of views why, some may be valid. This used to be an interesting and informative forum. Just on a soapbox and wondering why with my fingers. CrowChoker
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As the Boomers (myself included) age CAS is gradually dying. Not surprising a CAS Forum would suffer the same fate. I check in here almost every day, particularly the "New unread" section, and am frequently disappointed at how few new posts there are.
As for the Darksiders (black powder shooters) it seems like I am seeing more and more folks complaining about either how hard it is becoming to find black powder, primers, etc, or how they don't want to be bothered cleaning up after black powder.
In my case, despite getting older (74) and being disabled, the only shooting I get a real joy and satisfaction from is black powder cartridge shooting. My biggest problem is not having a 'shooting buddy'. No matter, you will still find me lurking and posting here...until I can't anymore.
Dave
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Yeah, it was harder to find powder and primers for a while, but not too bad now. Primers are more expensive than before, but such is life. Scheutzen BP is readily available. I just bought a bunch of 1Fg for more flame in shotgun. :) Like Dave T said, CAS is generally slowing down a bit. There are other forums on CasCity that are pretty slow as well. I think the majority of people shooting BP categories in CAS now are using APP. It is too easy, so they don't need to be posting and asking about lubes, how much and what sort of lube, big lube bullets, type of powder, etc. Overall, I think BP-sub shooters are somewhat less enthusiastic about BP in general. A lot of them were smokeless shooters who found less competition in BP categories so they use APP. Don't get me wrong, APP is okay and I use it sometimes for rifle. It smokes plenty, sometimes more than BP, and leaves less fouling. But I do miss the flame with APP.
For the last few years I've been staying with my elderly mom, 90 miles from my house and reloading gear, and don't have as much time for loading or cleaning guns. So I've been lazy and shooting more smokeless than BP. But I bought a bunch of lubed .38's from Springfield Slim before he retires from selling bullets, plus more from Missouri bullet company, and plan on shooting more BP this year. The Texican Rangers hold a year-long competition for category honors, you have to shoot a category in at least 5 matches during the year to qualify. So this year I'm going to shoot frontier cartridge monthly at that club.
This was two weeks ago at the Texas Riviera Pistoleros 2nd annual Gunfight at Gamble Gulch. APP in rifle, BP in .38 conversions and 12Ga otherwise. A nice breeze to allow seeing the targets. That's fine at a "big" match, but at a monthly I prefer little to no wind so the smoke hangs around and bugs the posse. ;D
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dW-OnD5ad5w
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well old age (92) and a state of general decrepitude has sidelined old Bunk.
My last shoot was one of the last times on the Rough Regulators range.
Still shooting and playing with an 1851nNavy converted to 1871 .38 Short Colt with FFFg of course on the range in my back yard.
Hang in there boys
I am
Bunk
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Howdy Bunk,
You're a little older than I thought. It's great that you still can enjoy your guns and black powder. Think you might make it to a match at Plum Creek some day?
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The younger generations may get involved when the 6 guns, lever guns are made of polymer.
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i may come spring green up, but right now i am sticking close to the cast iron stove in the bunk house with a big pile of mesquite chunks keeping the Arbuckles hot.
Still Holding center
Even hit it occasionally
Bunk
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Two things: I'm in middle Tennessee, and obsessed with everything black powder cartridge. I'll be 30 in the spring, and I would LOVE to be shooting buddies with some of you wiser old geezers. ;D
There may not be many of us, but I promise there are more younger guys like myself who love BP and the guns of the old west than you might imagine. I am finding more and more 20-35 year olds that love it, and I'm doing my best to get more into it.
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Well, just to add my 2 cents worth. Sometime back I laid in a supply of Goex and Old Eyensford. Mostly 3F, then I learned that black powder and .45 Colts do not necessarily play well together, so that combination has been placed on the back burner, at least for awhile.
I then bought a .36 caliber percussion revolver, only to learn that the caps needed to make it go bang are extremely scarce.
SO, my stash of black powder got relocated to a secure and protected place, NOT in the house.
Maybe Santa will bring me a .44-40 rifle and a sleigh full of brass.
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Crow Choker, I've noticed the same thing, not only this site but others as well. I chalk it up to a combination of factors--lack of available components, high prices when you do find them. I think people are conserving ammo when it's this difficult to replace. So there are fewer people reporting on their experiments and posing questions about them. I have to travel over an hour to a range and I find myself debating whether I can afford the gas at times when I used to shoot once a week. Pretty sad.
One thing I have noticed, though, is the amount of activity on some You Tube sites such as Mike Beliveau's and others. Mike posts a new video once a week that is mostly related to our interests. Judging by the responses he receives, plenty of people are watching and interested.
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Howdy Froogal,
Find some .45 Cowboy Action Special cases and load with a 200 grain (big lube) bullet and a full to bullet base which is about 25 grains of FFFg. This almost duplicates the Henry .44 flat cartridge and runs through a .45 Colt slick as can be.
With a modified lifter it is good to go in a '60, '66, or '73 Winchester.
Loads with regular .45 Colt sizing die and a .45ACP Seat and crimp die but a roll crimp die is better for a rifle.
A .45ACP sizing die works the brass to much as the ACP case has a slight taper.
Hold Center
Bunk
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...then I learned that black powder and .45 Colts do not necessarily play well together, so that combination has been placed on the back burner, at least for awhile....
If you are talking about 45 Colt in a rifle, I get it. It is doable just messy unless you hassle with annealing or some other work-around. But if you are talking about 45 Colt in a revolver, then ???
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Abilene
I just fire formed NEW .44-40 brass to accept a .45 Colt Big Lube (shameless plug) bullet and a case load of FFFg.
That thin case mouth seals perfectly. It is a bit of a bother to make but a lot easier that annealing .45 Colt brass and keeping a fouled lifter working.
My '60 Henry has a Happy Trails modified lifter and works well with the short so I used the .45CAS case for both guns.
The .44-40 cases will not work in a .45 Colt the case head is too big.
I do miss the fun.
Bunk
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...The .44-40 cases will not work in a .45 Colt the case head is too big....
Yeah, blowing out 44-40 cases to .45 was one of the other work-arounds I was referring to. I have thought about that but I have rifles in 32-20 and 44-40, and shoot plenty of BP .38's, so my 45 Colt rifle just sees smokeless (it's my Wild Bunch rifle). Now, as to your comment above, I'm not sure what you are referring to.
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If you are talking about 45 Colt in a rifle, I get it. It is doable just messy unless you hassle with annealing or some other work-around. But if you are talking about 45 Colt in a revolver, then ???
NO problems in a revolver, but the bore of the rifle gets fouled after only a few shots. A duplex load helps, but not enough.
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NO problems in a revolver, but the bore of the rifle gets fouled after only a few shots. A duplex load helps, but not enough.
You need more and/or better lube on your bullets. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
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You need more and/or better lube on your bullets. (smiley face goes here)
Dave
200 grain bullet with a single lube groove. SPG lube. To get a bullet with double lube grooves I would need to move up to 255 grains which just seems like over-kill for cowboy action shooting.
I am tempted to experiment with some LEE alox in addition to the SPG. Maybe that would just make a mess?
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200 grain bullet with a single lube groove. SPG lube. To get a bullet with double lube grooves I would need to move up to 255 grains which just seems like over-kill for cowboy action shooting.
I am tempted to experiment with some LEE alox in addition to the SPG. Maybe that would just make a mess?
How long is your rifle barrel? I should think for CAS accuracy you should be fine with one lube groove. Some folks run a patch down the barrel mid-match. I have been known to give a shot of moosemilk mist down the muzzle mid-match, sort of like a super-blow tube. But none of my barrels are longer than 20". If you did want to try the 225gr bullet, I doubt you would feel much difference in recoil. But don't let me dissuade you from getting a 44-40 rifle, you "need" that anyway. :)
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Having two lube grooves doesn't necessarily mean you are getting more lube. Several years ago a gentleman who went by 44WCF (John Kort) did extensive testing on the 44-40. Long story short he designed a single lube groove bullet that contained more lube, by actual measurement, than currently available two groove bullets. His design, available from Accurate Molds, carried enough lube for 24" barrels and were accurate to 300 yards. Unfortunately John passed away a couple of years ago and the extensive testing was reported on a website that is no longer up. His overall design is replicated in 38-40 and very similar 45 Colt. I have used both the 38-40 and 44-40 for years in Cowboy matches.
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How long is your rifle barrel? I should think for CAS accuracy you should be fine with one lube groove. Some folks run a patch down the barrel mid-match. I have been known to give a shot of moosemilk mist down the muzzle mid-match, sort of like a super-blow tube. But none of my barrels are longer than 20". If you did want to try the 225gr bullet, I doubt you would feel much difference in recoil. But don't let me dissuade you from getting a 44-40 rifle, you "need" that anyway. :)
I'd have to dig the rifle out of the safe and measure the barrel, but I know it is longer than 20 inches. The rifle will actually hold 13 rounds. As far as recoil goes, it ain't a problem.
When I first started playing with the black powder loads, the bore got fouled after only 5 rounds. I then played with a duplex load and could get off 10 shots, but that was it.
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I've used the Accurate 43-215C, which is John Korts design, for years. I use it in a 24" barreled rifle with no issues. Lubed with SPG I can shoot it indefinitely before cleaning. I'll shoot an entire 12 stage match over 3 days before cleaning. It takes about 3 patches and a pull of a bore snake to clean the bore.
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I quit shooting cowboy matches in 2010. I moved 40 mile farther away from what was already a long trip. I shoot lever guns and revolvers these days, all loaded with real black powder. I have my own range so I step out the door and let fly when ever the mood strikes me. Shooting smokeless powder is BORING. I do shoot smokeless in my schuetzen rifles and most of my M95 winchesters.
I was just thinking yesterday how much fun it would be to organize a "woods walk" shoot using all steel targets. 1 lever gun in any caliber and one revolver. No place to put it on......
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BTW, this used to be a hoppin' place, sorry to see it slide. I still learn alot here. With out the '76 forum I'd be lost since I have been gathering up the rifles and learning to load for them.
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it has been too cold to shoot, Coffinmaker is on vacation, and i have been busy with my nifty '51 Navy Krist Konversion to spice up the conversation.
What is others excuse?
Working out a .375" .38 Short Colt cartridge for the Navy.
Anyone else shooting this baby with it's original .375' outside lubricated bullet?
Warming up in Central Texas so old Bunk will soon be back at it.
Stay warm
Bunk
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Yep! Too cold here also. My pistol range is right out on top of the ridge where the wind hits from every direction.
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Bunk, I have a pair of Uberti 51 Navies with the Kirst cylinders that I shoot the .375 heel bullets in. I find the 38LC brass accomodates the heel bullets with plenty of room using about 17 grs of 3F Swiss. As far as the weather, supposed to get in the low 40's this week so off to the range I go.
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True, but I scored 300 Starline .38 Short Colt head stamped cases and using a 125 grain Colt cartridge Works bullet and 8.0 to 8.5 grains of FFFg will ring the chime in steel targets.
That load gives somewhere north of 800 rounds per pound of FFFg.
Plus without a lined barrel switch cylinders and shoot percussion.
Two guns for the price of three, good deal right?
respectfully
Bunk
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Thought I'd drop in since I started this thread about no posting on the Darkside, but in reality, posting thorough out the CAS Forum is a shadow of what it used to be. I love shooting and when cold weather hits here in the Midwest, ya I do slow down my shooting. Clubs don't have matches and shooters don't physically interact as much. In younger days a Saturday or Sunday afternoon shoot in the winter on a nice day didn't stop us. Cold weather and wind did of course, but one thing that didn't slow down was talking about shooting. Notice that 'The Muzzleloading Forum' is busy as ever including the Pistol section. Alot of talk about cap and ball.
Guess my thought is if ya love the sport, a shooter can talk about it, likes, dislikes, plans, etc. any and all of the time Don't know why going to APP should slow down the 'gab', shootin is shootin. Even the stinky APP needs to be cleaned from a revolver don't care what Coffin says about being able to wish it away. IMO real Darkside shootin is with black powder no matter how much APP is colored with pretty accolades. It's like going out on a date with an ugly girl and pretending and trying to convince everyone she's the hot gal in the class all the guys want to take out. Just ain't-a gonna fly!!! ;D Ifin that wanna-be APP is all ya can get after really searching for the real stuff, hey better than keeping the guns idle. See where Graf's have black in stock, but of course ya have hazmat and I think a minimum order. Get together with 2-3-4-5 shooters and have a big order, split the hazmat and live happy. APP needs load development, care with bullets, it ain't any cure-all for the trials and tribulations ya get with BP, but good Ol BP has been around for al long long long time and will continue.
Can understand some may only have interest when weather is nice and hibernate. We all get older, but there's alot of members here alot older than I who post on a regular basis. Helps keep an interest and keep ya young in mind and heart IMO. Anyway all the best to everyone this New Year, safe and fun shooting. Pulled out my Walker and WhitneyVille Dragoon last night and fondled them. Gonna be busy Mon-Wed this week but looks like low thirty's, sunny, non windy days later. That's tolerable for cap busting with black powder shooting. Think maybe I'll fire up those two old hoglegs and do some shootin. Good to see more postin going on. :)
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Yeah, blowing out 44-40 cases to .45 was one of the other work-arounds I was referring to. I have thought about that but I have rifles in 32-20 and 44-40, and shoot plenty of BP .38's, so my 45 Colt rifle just sees smokeless (it's my Wild Bunch rifle). Now, as to your comment above, I'm not sure what you are referring to.
Rim diameter of the 44/40 case is bigger than the 45 colt - might only be an issue with some models of wheel guns?
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Well, just to add my 2 cents worth. Sometime back I laid in a supply of Goex and Old Eyensford. Mostly 3F, then I learned that black powder and .45 Colts do not necessarily play well together, so that combination has been placed on the back burner, at least for awhile.
I then bought a .36 caliber percussion revolver, only to learn that the caps needed to make it go bang are extremely scarce.
SO, my stash of black powder got relocated to a secure and protected place, NOT in the house.
Maybe Santa will bring me a .44-40 rifle and a sleigh full of brass.
Annealing case necks aint hard (unless you make it into something slow and difficult)
stand em in a tray of water about half depth 50 at the time - set this up in a semi dark room - have at it with a propane torch, as each one gets to low red heat tip it over in the water with a short stick or piece of wire. rinse and repeat - dont take long at all to do a couple hundred
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Annealing case necks aint hard (unless you make it into something slow and difficult)
stand em in a tray of water about half depth 50 at the time - set this up in a semi dark room - have at it with a propane torch, as each one gets to low red heat tip it over in the water with a short stick or piece of wire. rinse and repeat - dont take long at all to do a couple hundred
I may just need to try my hand at annealing.
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Might do the same. I don't have much problem with FF loaded 44 Colt cases, but alot of my 45 black rounds have pretty sooty black brass when shooting and dirty gun frames. 45 Revolver shooting only, no rifle. The 44 Colt rounds I shoot in three of the four conversion Colts stay pretty clean, even shooting them in a 66 Yellowboy Mod 66. Think I'll do around 100 45's and see if that helps. No problems with cracked mouths. The 45's get shot in a 45 Colt chambered Model P type Colt Jaeger and Old Model Ruger Vaquero. Like the feel of the old model vs the new which I do have in .357.
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Well hell I’ll step in here even though I rarely post. I’m 34 and been here reading sense I was 21. I have learned so very much. I have never been to a match. I’ve only been able to get a hold of couple of guns need. And I’ve only just started to reload, it’s been a terrible time to get started. I did manage to get 50 .45 colt loaded up with some 777 2fg. That was fun! But getting the stuff has really been troublesome for the last couple years. Truthfully more modern arms tends get priority, but you can thank libs for that. It’s not been for lack of interest or desire. One poster mentioned younger stereotypes wanting polymer lever guns or revolvers, :-X no. In fact I’ve been seeing interest trend towards more classical stuff. The market is flooded with 87 versions of Glock favored pistols, it’s become burdensome to tell them apart. I’m here because I’m interested in history and historical guns. I have ZERO interest shooting light .38 specials as fast as possible for time. I want to know what it was like to shoot these guns back when they were getting used for real.
John44
Edit to add: a heart felt thank you to all the old time posters for sharing your knowledge historical guns and ammunition over the years, it’s been much appreciated at least by me.
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Difficult to talk about black powder levergun cartridges and not see John Kort mentioned. I miss the man.
Well folks , I am somewhat of an outsider but I have posted a few times in a coupe of different threads. I don't shoot CAS but I do shoot Lever Action Silhouette. This past weekend I finished loading this years supply of 44WCF. A little over a thousand rounds. Most are reduced loads , what I call Henry Rimfire Equivalent. They are the Accurate 43-220 , 27gr of Swiss 1.5F, a .140 thick card wad and CCI#300 primers. If you saw what a full power load does to 40 meter chickens, you would understand the quest for an accurate reduced load. Then a few 100 round boxes of the same bullet with 37gr off Swiss 2F and no wad.
Why do I shoot black powder in my Uberti Winchester 1873 ? It is fun, no doubt about it. The friends giving me a hard time about the smoke and the boom. The look on the faces of anyone new . Once there was a young couple that stopped everything because they knew somebody's rifle just blew up !
The cleanup is so easy, there is no reason not to.
It is literally the most accurate load I have come up with for this rifle.
It is powerful enough to knock over the full size 200 meter rams.
Again, Mr John Kort you are missed. I owe him thanks for his guidance . Myself, Savvy Jack and others try to pass on the knowledge he gave to us.
This spring I will be doing load development with my 1894 Winchester 38-55 with Swiss 2F. Got my fingers crossed.
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This spring I will be doing load development with my 1894 Winchester 38-55 with Swiss 2F. Got my fingers crossed.
You might want to try some 3F Swiss also. I have had very good results with about 45 grains of Swiss 3F and a 250 grain RNFP 20/1 bullet from an original Winchester mold.
Lucky ;D
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Is John Kort the man who posted under the alias of 30 WCF and 44 WCF?
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Hello Crow Choker,
I shoot plenty of gunpowder and have for many many years. But ran into a literal jam with my1851 Navy when set up with the Krist conversion. Using FFFg in the .38 Colt case (.375" bore) the cylinder stopped revolving without help after five rounds from fouling.
The same results with GOEX, Olde Einsford and Du Pont. All FFFg but with a case that holds 8.5 compressed grains FFg was not a viable option.
When APP was tried the difference in fouling allowed 15 rounds (which was all I loaded) and the cylinder was still turning freely.
No it is not real Gunpowder but otherwise the conversion parts wold be in a box and I am out big $$$$$.
So, since I started this game with Laflin & Rand Orange Extra Sporting powder, Du Pont Gunpowder in oval cans and corrosive percussion caps used in an original Address Col. Colt NY 1851Navy I have burned enough Gunpowder to allow me to use APP without comment thank you very much.
Respectfully
Bunk
Registered Curmudgeon
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Is John Kort the man who posted under the alias of 30 WCF and 44 WCF?
Yes.
There are few firearm forums or searches for 44WCF, Swiss Black Powder that you could do and not find him.
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I thought that was him. He was a wealth of knowledge about shooting BP. Sadly most of us who participate in the BP sports are starting to age out. I miss a lot of those old guys like him and Ottawa Creek Bill.
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Just to make conversation----- I am curious. The .45 ACP was introduced in 1906, or maybe before depending on what source is used. Would those early .45 autos have been loaded with black powder?
Just curious.
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Just to make conversation----- I am curious. The .45 ACP was introduced in 1906, or maybe before depending on what source is used. Would those early .45 autos have been loaded with black powder?
Just curious.
No.
But some daredevils do shoot BP in it occasionally :D
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Just to make conversation----- I am curious. The .45 ACP was introduced in 1906, or maybe before depending on what source is used. Would those early .45 autos have been loaded with black powder?
Just curious.
NO----Have never read of any 'from back in the day' . Have read here and there of a few guys doing it and gave up due to semiauto jamming up for all of the black powder residue. Can see why they would. 'Not a harmonious outcome' for sure. :'( ;D
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I thought that was him. He was a wealth of knowledge about shooting BP. Sadly most of us who participate in the BP sports are starting to age out. I miss a lot of those old guys like him and Ottawa Creek Bill.
Miss those guys also, plus a long list of others who passed and those who just quit posting and/or left the forum.
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No, autos are notorious for being unable to run very long on BP due to the fouling. That's why the invention of smokeless allowed the development of reliable automatics. Also, you can look at the .45 Colt cartridge and the .45ACP next to each other. The lower volume of powder needed to produce equivalent performance is evident.
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Back when I had my 1st and only Ruger Vaquero, it was a convertible .45. I used to shoot BP 45acp in that. I used 17gr of FFFg Goex and a 230gr RN bullet. It was fun. :) I actually still have a little bit of that ammo left over. I keep saying one day I'll shoot it in a 1911. Maybe I'll shoot it at some of those flying pigs. :D
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Comparable to putting diesel fuel in your gasoline powered vehicle. Have known several who have done that. Years ago my wife advised that some thieves in the dark of night filled their car up at her family farm. When her Dad woke and saw what was going on the thieves fled down the gravel road. Sheriff Dept was called but easily located the thieves a short distance. They had filled their gasoline powered vehicle with diesel fuel. Dumb crook award to those guys. ;D