Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => STORM => Topic started by: Tuolumne Lawman on November 06, 2019, 05:30:24 PM
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This will be the project thread so everyone interested can be updated:
Project goal: examining possibilities of developing a Black Hills .38 Colt round that work work equally well in .375" bore cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers, and .357" bore .38 Special CAS revolvers. With .38 Special and cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers being more popular, especially with the aging CAS shooter population, author believes there is an untapped market, that up to know has been limited by the lack of suitable ammo for the .38 Colt conversions.
Possible solutions:
One is to offer their .38 Special 148 grain Hollow Base wad Cutter (148 HBWC), in a .38 Colt case, possibly with projectile not seated flush, but rather protruding approx. 1/4" to create additional case capacity (duplicating the .38 Special case) so loading data world stay the same.
The second is to possibly replace their existing 150 grain, .357" round nose lead, solid base projectile of their .38 Colt loading with a softer lead 150 grain round nose lead, hollow base bullet as was done in the original post 1892 .38 Colt loadings, discontinued in the 1960s.
Both options would work in both converted .36 caliber percussion revolvers with the larger bore, or standard .38 Special revolvers with the modern bore.
Two .36 caliber percussion revolvers are being supplied by EMF/Pietta (an 1851 Navy Colt and an 1858 .36 caliber Navy Remington) to be used in testing the loads.
Appropriate conversion parts for both test revolvers being supplied by Walt Kirst of Kirst Konverters.
Conversion of both percussion revolvers to .38 Colt being done by Tuolumne Lawman.
Ammunition being supplied by Jeff Hoffman OF BLACK HILLS AMMO. Initially, standard .38 special 148 grain HBWC will be used to see if that bullet obdurates sufficiently in its current configuration (shape and alloy hardness) to give acceptable accuracy from a .38 Colt cartridge conversion of a .36 caliber percussion revolver. Other load possibilities currently being research by Black Hills Ammunition.
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Thank you sir, I will be watching this thread intently.
Can You Also Please be sure to test accuracy at real distances,
at least 15 yards, preferably 20 or 25 yards?
Whilst some folk only care if they can hit a dinner platter at 10 feet, I personally insist that all my firearms manage
at least 2" groups from a rest at distance. Then I can blame all misses on my wobbling spaghetti arms.
yhs
prof marvel
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I will be doing 5. 10. and 15 yards at least. I do it off hand, two hand grip in an indoor pistol range. I don't use a rest when shooting pistols. I will be watching from group consistency and whether or not there are signs of key-holing or tumbling.
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Interesting project, TM.
X fingers that your test leads to promising results
For two years I am shooting smokeless .38 Long Colt reloads in my pair of newly made 1861 Navies in CAS.
Accuracy up to 25 m at CD-size bonus targets of my .357/158 grainers is more than sufficient.
Long Johns Wolf
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I think the real market would be rounds safe to shoot in the Colt DA's built from 1884 to 1905 and the M1877.
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This is a good project. Looking forward to your developments.
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A fellow CAS/SASS shooter of mine recently bought a nice Colt DA 1877 in 38 Colt. We slugged the bore at .377". According to an article by Mike Vinterino, He developed a load that shot very well using HBWC's or cast HB round nose.
We elected to load the Hornady HBWC, in 38 Colt cases over Trail-Boss powder. The recipe is on the Hodgdon's site for Trail Boss. This powder I had in my stock. We loaded 100 rounds, and had a fun day at Cowtown.
Accuracy is well suited for CAS, our test targets were SASS revolver Steel targets.
The piece was a 38 DA Lightning made in 1902.
Our next loading for the piece might be, a case full of APP with a round ball seated on top.
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I'm going to pull some slugs from the Black Hills .38 Special 148 grain HBWC loads, and load them in the .38 Colt cases (to same OAL as .38 Special) and see how they do.
Just got the Kirst Konvrerters for both guns and the 1851 from EMF. The Remmie .36 is backordered, but expected this month. The 1851 is SWEET and sleek! I see why folks like them! Its a 7.5" blued with the tan aged faux-ivory looking polymer grips.
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I just had to try...
I only have the 1851 Colt so far, and have not done the conversion yet. i do not have any of the Black Hills test ammo yet, nor do I have the .36 Remington. I was getting impatient, though, so I did pop the cylinder in with unmodified 1851 just to try.
At 7 yards, two hand unsupported firing stance in the back pasture, I tried some assorted 148 wadcutters.
First I tried 5 rounds of no-name bulkcommercial reloads in mixed brass. I used a puller, and they do have a hollow base wadcutter, but they seem pretty hard. All five rounds key-holed completely and spread about 8 inches! That was really discouraging!
Then I grabbed an old box of Western (Winchester) Mid-range 148 HBWCs. 5 rounds, all nice crisp crisp holes, about 2.5" spread with one clover leaf. That's much more encouraging.
The WWs seem to have a soft lead wadcutter, whereas the commercial reloads were hard like 1/20 tin or even wheel weight.
I won't be doing anymore until after I get the ammo from Black Hills, the .36 Remington, and do the full conversions of both revolvers. I will do a range session with pictures and tabulate results. I am guessing that it will be some time next month before I have more to share, but it is nice to know there is some hope for hollow base bullets.
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Sounds good!
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Good information so far. Obviously HB bullets are a necessity. Good testing already, even though it wasn't what you really want to work with.
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All HBWCs are not created equal! I quickly learned that they need to be soft hollow base like the classic Speer 148 HBWC Duke Venturino used. Those hard HBWCs from the commercial reloads did not appear to obdurate at all, leaving nice rectangular sided holes that perfectly match the HBWC I pulled before the shoot.
I will say that it felt odd to be loading puny little .38s after 26 years of loading .38-40, .44-40, .44 Russian/Colt, or .45 Colt/Schofield into my revolvers! I have a feeling I will be sticking with the .44/.45 calibers.....
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Update: Unfortunately, the .36 Remmies are not in stock yet at EMF, so initial efforts will be Colt 1851 Navy ONLY! I have Black Hills .38 Long Colt ammo (non-hollow base), Black Hills .38 Special Hollow base wadcutter, HSM .38 Special Hollow base wadcutter, and Winchester-western Mid-range Hollow base wadcutter. The search continues for a source for quantity RNL HB 150s like Ten-x used to have. I will try to talk to Richard at Ten X.
Black Hills is sending my components so I don't have to pull bullets from live ammo to create different loads.
I did finish the Kirst Konversion (cylinder and ejector) on the 1851 Navy, including cutting the loading channel. It was REALLY hard steel and took 10 Dremel drums! While I consider .38 Colt a minor caliber for CAS, it sure is sweet and sleek, though, and points like a dream. I would have a hard tine, however, giving up .44 Colt.Russian Open Tops for the smaller .38.
Pics to come
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Looking forward to hearing how the different loads compare. Even if you only get to do it with the one pistol, the results will be indicative of what one can expect.
Interesting that the Pietta frame is so hard. I converted one a few years ago and, as I recall, it was tough and had to be roughed in with a grinding drum before switching to the sanding drum to finish it up. I wonder if Pietta is using a better quality steel than other manufacturers.
The one I converted was one of the What-Were-You-Thinking-Those-Never-Did-Exist-In-Real-Life .44 cal '51 Navies for the very reason you are doing all these tests: the accuracy problem with bore diameter compared to bullet size. Even with the .45's, I had to go with .454 diameter 200gr soft lead Desperado RNFP bulllets with a stout load of Trail Boss powder to get good accuracy. Those bullets are flat base bullets. With .452 hard cast bullets it keyholed a lot.
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Here it is. EMF sent an 1851 with the polymer aged ivory grips. Actually started really liking them!
(https://i.imgur.com/ng5Co9R.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/K5Hnyml.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/5NfLjOr.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MwThzso.jpg)
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That's a good looking pistol. I like the aged ivory grips.
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Excellent job, and a Beautiful pistol!
It is gratifying to hear that the newer Piettas are of such hard steel, and one can see that there are no voids at all.
Quality has improved tremendously !
yhs
prof marvel
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I will see how it does. I have to confess that I am very taken with this little gun. It could make a.38 shooter out of me.
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Great News!!!! Bear Creek Bullets, who makes an awesome 140 grain , .378" diameter heeled .38 Colt bullet, had agreed to work with us on the project. We are exploring Bear Creek reproducing the original 150 grain RN HB bullet for the project.
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Excellent news!
If I cannot live without a flat point, I can pop them in my milling jig for a touch-up .. :-)
yhs
prf mvl
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Atz a really nice '51 conversion there TL. Really like it. I could almost be tempted to build myself a pair. I do however remember what it cost to build my pair of Pietta 44s with Kirst Saber River kits. On top of which I already have 2 pair of Pietta .36 Cal Snubbies I'm shooting with R & D conversion Cylinders. AND, on top of all of that, I have a pair of Uberti (Gasp!!!) factory '51 conversions I have already cut to the Ejector assembly. Almost tempted. Not quite. But still a really nice '51 Conversion TL.
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The load developing begins.:
The first load is a control: A Bear Creek 140 grain, .375" diameter, heeled bullet, in a .38 Colt case over 3.2 grains of Trail Boss. Since I don't have the crimp die yet, I used a 4 point stab crimp like com-bloc ammo.
Note: The 140 Bear Creek heeled does not need to be used in the shorter .88" 38 Long case that was designed for healed bullets. The Kirst cylinder is long enough to use the 1.02" long case designed for the 150 inside lube. This is awesome for case capacity if using BP. I LOVE the 140 grain Bear Creek!
First set is using a Black Hills soft lead 148 grain hollow base wadcutter in a Starline/Black Hills .38 Colt brass. The bullet is set 1/4" from flush to give .38 Special-ist case capacity. Powder charges are WW231, Unique, and Trail Boss, all around 3.0 grains.
(https://i.imgur.com/LHtNLaf.jpg)
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Looking good, TL.
I really like the new heal-based RN bullets. Those are really quite "stubby" for a round-nose!
I am also impressed by your 4 point stake crimp, simple & effective.
yhs
prof marvel
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What did you use for that crimp?
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Its actually from a wire crimping/stripping pliers. The yellow dipper handle in the picture points at the spot I am using. I centered it in the jaws and it made four dimples in the perfect place. I do have a heel base crimp die on the way from Bernie at Old West Bullet moulds!
I think with the heeled bullet being stubby enough to use in unmodified 1.02" 38 Long Colt brass, the heeled bullet offers the maximum performance because of increased case capacity with only the heel in the case. A full with slight compression from the heel case of BP (about 18.5 grains) will be a stomper!
(https://i.imgur.com/Ou1kI15.jpg)
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That's some fine southern engineering. :)
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I married into an Okie (transplanted to California) family. I guess a little Okie engineering rubbed off on me over the last fifty years....
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That's certainly a simple crimping tool. I have the identical one. Good to remember should I decide to try heeled 38's. Thanks for that.
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It works OK, but not nearly as secure as a crimp die. Better than gluing them it with Elmers like one article I read! I do have high hopes for the 150 Grain, round nose hollow base bullet development. It is an easy answer that works in both lined and unlined bores.
If I do get serious about .38 Long Colt for my future use, the hollow base wadcutter seated 1/4" out would not ring my chimes. It may work well, but is fugly and hard to load since the bullet has a sharp 90 degree flat nose with no taper or bevel. About ever third one jams down in the case all the way. With OWBM's crimp die (that works like a LEE factory crimp die), it looks like it is no harder to load them on my LEE 4 stage turret press with auto-index, than any other load.
The 140 grain, .375" inch, heeled bullet would however ring them load and clear, and be totally awesome (if the 150 RNHB doesn't materialize).
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I have a couple of the OWBM heel crimp dies. They work great!
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Hello the camp! An update. EMF has not been able to get any more Remingtons in .36 lately, so the second revolver will be a 4 inch barreled 1851. A Captain Schaeffer 1851 at that! That is actually better choice than the 36 Remington, as it will prove out if the HB bullets obdurate in a shorter barrel.
For those unfamiliar with it: This will make a sweet little .38 Long Colt! I'll even shorten the ejector assembly to mount on it.
(https://i.imgur.com/zC2Zck0.jpg)
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That'll look great! I'm glad you are going to test one with a shorter barrel. There is a need for good performance in those.
I'll be interested to see how you shorten that ejector.
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I shall follow the progress of the Capt. Schaeffer with huge interest. I have a pair, however I utilize two Stainless R & D cylinders. Gated conversion will be hugely interesting to say the least.
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They?ll look a lot like their predecessors, the ?Old Silver?!
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Nice!!!!!
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Those look good, HH. They look like 44's. Where do they shoot? I have one that needs a much higher front sight.
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HH Always has some really NICE TOYS!! My 1860s with Kirst also shot quite high. I dovetailed new front sights (some taller)!!
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Update: Pietta didn't go for the Captain Schaeffer for the second gun, but they did find a 4.5" 1851 .36 Caliber instead. That is actually better for testing as few 1851s are shorter than 4.5".
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Those look good, HH. They look like 44's. Where do they shoot? I have one that needs a much higher front sight.
I?m guessing they shoot at wherever the owner points them? LoL
But seriously we all know that bullet weight and charge greatly affect POA.
These were built for a customer a few years back.....
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I?m guessing they shoot at wherever the owner points them? LoL
But seriously we all know that bullet weight and charge greatly affect POA.
These were built for a customer a few years back.....
OK, thanks. I was curious. i'll just have to fashion a decent front sight for mine.
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I got the second revolver from EMF. It is an oddball that was a trial or special order. It is a 4" (like the Captain Shaeffer), but blued with a birds head grip and a nickel plated grip frame. It is not a production item, and its origin is uncertain! LOL.. Neat little belly gun, though. VTI is out of 1851 Konverter sets, so I am on standby waiting for it. It will be interesting to see if the hollow base wadcutter or round nose obdurate enough in a 4" barrel.
(https://i.imgur.com/qhMx8Fi.jpg)
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Wow, that's kind of cool-looking. How is it in the hand without the upper extension on the grip?
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It feels more like a standard grip in the hand than the Thunderer style grip with the hump.
I loaded up a box of 140 grain heeled to use at the local match Saturday. I haven't started on my new Kirst Saber River 1860 that I am pairing with my new (actually old to me, but recently returned to me) 1875 Schofield Wells Fargo as my main match pair.
(https://i.imgur.com/Yjn1sbh.jpg)
I thought I would try the 7.5" .38 Long Colt 1851 as my second pistol. Until I test the HB wadcutters, though, I'll stick with the .375" heeled. I used the pliers to stab crimp them since I haven't gotten the heeled bullet crimp die I ordered from OWBM. Was too bad, maybe twice as long as loading bullets on the LEE 4 stage turret press with auto index.
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It feels more like a standard grip in the hand than the Thunderer style grip with the hump.
That would make sense. Thanks.
So how did the 7-1/2" '51 conversion perform under match conditions?
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Match is this coming Saturday, I will let you know! LOL.
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I'm guessing someone bought or was about to buy a nickled SAA clone, probably a GWII, with those birdshead grips, and said, "I love the gun but don't like these grips. Can you swap something else onto it, like a Navy grip?"
And "they" (whoever that was) said "sure!"
:)
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Could very well be. The non-standard 4 inch barrel is a puzzle, too. The only ones I have seen with a 4" are the Captain Schaeffer engraved. Almost thinking it should be whacked to 3" without a rammer or ejector housing, but I doubt any hollow base would obdurate and stabilize in a 3" barrel. I am wondering how the 4" will do?
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Match is this coming Saturday, I will let you know! LOL.
Oops. I thought it was this last Sunday. Looking forward to hearing how it works out.
Could very well be. The non-standard 4 inch barrel is a puzzle, too. The only ones I have seen with a 4" are the Captain Schaeffer engraved. Almost thinking it should be whacked to 3" without a rammer or ejector housing, but I doubt any hollow base would obdurate and stabilize in a 3" barrel. I am wondering how the 4" will do?
I'm looking forward to hearing about this, too.
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Heeled bullet crimp die is in the mail to me! It is a shame I am such a .44/.45 revolver guy. I really dig the .38 Long Colt with its stubby, heeled bullets!
(https://i.imgur.com/LHtNLaf.jpg)
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OOOOOPS! Not going to make the match tomorrow. My grandson's final football game conflicts with the match, and I am not missing that!
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Update: I got the .38 heeled bullet crimp die from Bernie at Old West Bullet Molds. It is an amazing device. Based on a LEE factory crimp die, it has an adjustable base that allows loading .38 Short Colt (.68" case), 38 Long colt for long heeled bullets (.88" case) and .38 Long Colt for shorter heeled (1.02" case). The crimp is bodacious and sturdy. It really engages the heel like a 22 LR bullet. It is simple to use, like any crimp die
He also sent an assortment of his heeled base bullets, including an ingenious hollow base healed that you can inside lube and will expand the rear portion to the bore and engage lube.
My plan has shifted to a two part article: Part one will be about the .38 long Colt and History of it, and loading it. Bernies stuff will be showcased, as will Bear Creek's excellent 140 grain heeled.
I will use some LEE Alox wax lube brushed on the exposed major diameter portion of the bullets. Pic to follow.
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I'm looking forward to seeing how the die works. Thanks in advance for showing the loading as well as how they shoot.
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Here are some pics:
First is the bullets, Left to Right: OWBM 125 grain heeled .375 Short Colt, OWBM 150 grain, .375 Long Colt Hollow base with inside lube grooves, OWBM 150 conical .375" heeled for .88" Long Colt heeled cases, and Bear Creek moly 140 grain heeled .375" for 1.02" Long Colt cases.
(https://i.imgur.com/wGaL8Ft.jpg)
loaded rounds. Left to right" W-W "Army" .38 Long Colt with 150 grain, hollow base, inside lubed bullet, OWBM 125 grain Short Colt, OWBM 150 conical .375" heeled in .88" Long Colt case, OWBM 150 grain Hollow base with inside lube grooves in 1.02" case, OWBM 150 conical .375" heeled in 1.02" Long Colt, Bear Creek moly 140 grain heeled .375" in 1.02" Long Colt cases.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZzFPkVo.jpg)
You can see how deep the crimp is. Those bullets aren't going anywhere until fired. Good for ignition. The 140 Bear Creek and the 150 conical in a 1.02" case, I did with a heavier crimp. I think I may back off a bit to preserve case life.
Note, the OWBM 150 conical is designed for the .88" Long Colt case that was used for heeled bullets. It is a few thousands too long to fit in the Kirst/Pietta 1851 in a 1.02" case. I did take a tack hammer and tap the nose to flatten the nose slightly, and then it fits fine in the Pietta Kirst. I believe the 1863 Remmies are a tad longer in the cylinder, and it may work unmodified in them..
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Tuolumne Lawman,
Pictures of the Old West crimp die I have found have all been un-viewable Photbucket images. How about posting a pic of the parts of your heeled-bullet crimp die?
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That's quite a crimp. It's a flat ring rather than tapered into the buller. If that doesn't hold, nothing will.
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Hello Tuolumne Lawman,
Just for your information, on my 44 Colt using the LEE 450-200-1R with a swaged heel.
I cut the lower groove out of the mold,
thinking it was causing to deep a crimp on my cases.
Not a good idea, I feel the groove is necessary to hold the bullet tight.
My die has a square faced crimp, so even on an angled crimp groove it will look to deep.
One would need the face to be angled same as crimp groove on bullet to avoid this.
AntiqueSledMan.
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Crimp die from top: Modified LEE factory crimp die:
(https://i.imgur.com/kP00f1Q.jpg)
Step one: Bullet is placed in extended shell holder
(https://i.imgur.com/gI563Yg.jpg)
Step two: Extended shell holder pushed up allowing case mouth to travel the extra distance to the crimp and the base engages the bottom of the factory crimp die pushing it up.
(https://i.imgur.com/YTjnn3Z.jpg)
Step three: crimp die bypasses the projectile, lining up on case mouth for tight crimp.
(https://i.imgur.com/Peh7KCf.jpg)
In order to set it for .88" Long Colt cases (for healed bullets) or .38 Short Colt cases, the small diameter portion of the shell holder screws upward where the shorter case is higher in the die, and the base still engages the bottom of the crimp die.
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I like the way it works. Thanks for the photos.
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Yes, Thanks for the pics! These are the clearest pics of this heeled bullet crimping device I have seen. They answer all my questions.
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Using OWBM's crimp die is so easy, there is no reason a reloader can't load heeled bullets almost as easy as non-heeled. I use a 4 stage LEE Turret press with auto index. First de-caps and sizes, second is the powder drop/belling die, third is the seating/crimp (backed out so no crimp). I then put it in a tray until I get 50, then disable the auto index and use Bernie's crimp die (which uses the proprietary shell holder for the die) to crimp them all.
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That would work great on a 5-stage press.
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Just received word that the next run of 1851 .38 LC Konverters are in production. Should have the second one, and get the 4" 1851 converted by the end of the month. Then the test will begin!!!!
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Tuolumne,
this is a great thread. Following it with interest.
I know Oklahoma Tom and Johnson Barr use crimp dies in various calibers for heeled bullets, so I've been curious about a How-To for .38 Long Cot in C&B revolvers.
Thanks for presenting this information.
RCJ
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Thanks! I was never a fan of heeled bullets until I got Bernie's (OWBM) .38 long Colt crimp die. It is amazing, and heeled bullets are cool. I paint some LEE Alox lube in the groove and bearing surface and let it dry. Makes me wish I had a .44 Colt that uses heeled bullets.
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That crimp die does sound mighty cool. I don't have anything that could use heeled bullets or I'd have one, too. Mebbe I'll have to think about another conversion one of these days.
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Update: Finally should be back on track. The one Kirst cylinder I had had an out of spec chamber that was splitting cases. I sent it back to Walt. He advised that from the date code, it was a very old stock from a prior machinist that he had briefly subcontracted to, that regularly had QC problems. Somehow this one had missed the recall and scrap heap.
Well, production of the 1851 Konverters has now caught up, and two sets (one for the 7.5" and one for the 4") are on the way. I have modified both 1851s with loading channels, and fit the ejector to the 7.5". I will have to modify the ejector for the 4" as it is a little too long for the 4" barrel.
Ammo is loaded up, both HBWC and Bear Creek 140 grn heeled. One cylinder has the new .357" throat, and the other has the optional .375" for heeled. I am going to see if there is any difference in accuracy with hollow base coming from either cylinder.
Cylinders should be here tomorrow (Monday). Pics soon.
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Looking forward to your progress.
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All set and ready to go for the range test. It will not be for another week, though, as I am flying back east to meet my son at Gettysburg, PA for a 5 day father/son vacation there and Washington DC.I used to be a Civil War re-enactor, and have been to a number of battlefields (Lookout Mountain, Pea Ridge, and Vicksburg). Gettysburg, though, is the holy grail. It is to a Civil War re-enactor what the Vatican is to a Catholic school boy! He is a fire chief, and is attending the National Fire Academy (the equivalent of the LEO's FBI National Academy for fire chief officers). He bought my ticket and booked the rooms.
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Go have a great time. That's real history, there. 8)
Looking forward to your test results, too.
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I too was CW Reenactor ( mounted Cavalry) Gettysburg is indeed the epidemy.
I've been many times , lived there 6 months while filming "Gettysburg" (another 6 in Hagerstown Md. filming "Gods & Generals" )
several reenactments the 118th 120th 125th and 130th. and several day trips with the boss lady.
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I am having to hit pause on the project. I am in the high risk category (67+ with Leukemia and Asthma), so I am hunkered down at home per California governor's order. In addition both local range's have now shut down be the governor's order.
I am set to go, with a wide assortment of hollow base wadcutters loaded in .38 Long Colt cases, and have both a long and short barrel 1851 converted with Kirst Konverters. They Konverters were out of stock until last month, but I was able to convert the second 1851 when it came in. After finally finishing the conversions the test was then delayed, however, by my moving to a new house and a trip to Washington DC and Gettysburg.
Here are the two Kirst Konverted guns: I still need to modify the 4" barrel's ejector as it is too long.
(https://i.imgur.com/Loy15Dv.jpg)
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Thanks for the update. Stay in and stay healthy.
I suspected the virus business was putting a damper on this project. It's good that you have it all ready to go for after things settle down.
Looking forward to seeing how you shorten the ejector on the 4" one.
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Shortening the ejector is a challenge. I may just try to find a 4.5" Sheriff barrel for it if I keep it. I also wish it had either a standard 1851 grip or the Birds head Thunderer grip instead of the Pinkerton one it has.
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What about just going without an ejector? You can push the casings out with a stick or plastic zip tie.
Years ago I had a Single Six with a grip that had been bobbed off much like the Pinkerton grip. It certainly wasn't all that comfortable. I can see what you mean about a Thunderer or Navy grip. Is it cost effective to get a Thunderer backstrap and grips?
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VTI doesn't carry the Pinkerton, and a standard grip and back strap run about $80. If I keep it when I finish the article, I may go that route with a 7.5" barrel to have a pair of 7.5s. I have to admit that the 7.5" 1851 is even sleeker than the 1860 Saber River. I do say, though, that my current main match pair are hard to beat.
My .44/45 pair
(https://i.imgur.com/qHHCwHZ.jpg)
my .36/.38 pair
(https://i.imgur.com/Loy15Dv.jpg?1)
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All set and ready to go for the range test. It will not be for another week, though, as I am flying back east to meet my son at Gettysburg, PA for a 5 day father/son vacation there and Washington DC.I used to be a Civil War re-enactor, and have been to a number of battlefields (Lookout Mountain, Pea Ridge, and Vicksburg). Gettysburg, though, is the holy grail. It is to a Civil War re-enactor what the Vatican is to a Catholic school boy! He is a fire chief, and is attending the National Fire Academy (the equivalent of the LEO's FBI National Academy for fire chief officers). He bought my ticket and booked the rooms.
Update: Gettysburg was an amazing place. Truly hallowed ground, with the spirits of the past just below the surface. We stood on top of Little Round Top one evening looking out over the Devils Den and Peach Orchard, and the next evening on top of Cemetery Ridge looking over the killing field where Pickett's ill fated charge occurred. It was an ethereal experience in both cases.
Covid Virus reared its ugly head, though, and all of the museums in Washington DC (our next stop) closed our last day in Gettysburg. We did the monuments in the national mall, but cut our trip short as they started cancelling flights. Good thing, too, as it got really weird really fast!
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A 7-1/2" bbl certainly makes a nicely balanced iron. With the $80 grip switch, it definitely would make a good second pistol. Maybe with the barrel cut down to 6-1/2" just to be different? That would also get rid of the loading lever catch on the bottom of the barrel.
Glad to hear you got as much historical site visiting in as you did before things went awry. Glad you got while the getting was good.
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This is the text of the email I sent to the participants in the project. It is not confidential, and I consider the hive here resource/sounding board. No surprises except splitting cases on the heeled bullet loads, apparently do to my using an excessive crimp.
After months of COVID delay. I finally did a range day within the .38 Colt Konversions. All shooting was done free standing, using a Weaver stance. Range was 7 yards, typical SASS revolver target range.
Summary:
1) Black Hills factory .38 Colt. .357," 150 solid base RN: From both a 4" and a 7.5" .375 bore gave minute of dinner plate accuracy, with ALL bullets key-holing and tumbling through the targets at 7 yards. Useless for practical purposes in BP revolvers with .375" bore converted with centerfire cylinder, regardless of whether the cylinder has a .357" or .375" throat.
2) Black Hills factory .38 Special 148 HBWC. From the 7.5 " with the .357" throated cylinder did a 3.5" group, and from the same revolver with the .375" throated cylinder did a little better at 3".
3). Bear Creek 140 grain .375" heeled bullets over 3.7 grains Trail Boss, crimped with OWBM's heel bullet crimp in Black Hills .38 Colt cases. These cases split (no other cases in test split), but I attribute that to my using too severe a heel bullet crimp. The rupture started where the wrinkle in the crimp occurred. The same powder charge with a 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case did not rupture. Groups were 1.75" to 3.0" from the test gun, with the 4" EMF 1851 giving the best group.
4) 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case, with 3.7 grains Trail Boss gave 2" from the 7.5" barrel using the .357" throated cylinder, and 2.5" when using the .375" throated cylinder.
5) 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case, with 3.3 grains of Unique gave 4" from the 7.5" barrel using the .357" throated cylinder, and 3.0" when using the .375" throated cylinder.
6). Several other powders were tried (WW231, Bullseye) and gave results essentially the same as Unique
A) In ALL cases, whether from .357" or .375" throat Kirst cylinder, Hollow Base Wadcutters seemed to obdurate into the .375" bore to give as good of accuracy (or bretter in some cases) than the 140 grain .375" heeled bullet. Groups were consistent and the holes cut crisp and round, with no evidence of tumbling or keyholing.
B) Barrel length (4.0" or 7.5") did not seem to have any effect on this obduration.
C) The hollow base loads, while not quite as accurate as the 140 grain .375" heeled loads, were certainly accurate enough for SASS use.
D) The tests show that hollow base bullets work well in both .357 and .375" bore revolvers.
E) (FOR JEFF) The expense of commercially loading .375" heeled bullets is prohibitive, and appeals to the somewhat limited market share of converted revolver shooters. OIn the other hand, the 150 grain, hollow base round nose bullet (of the original 1892 Army loading of the .38 Colt produced into the 1960s) would be attractive to both SASS shooters shooting .357" bore revolvers and SASS shooters shooting .375" bore conversion revolvers.
F). (FOR WALT) There was no consistent difference in accuracy from the `.357" throated cylinders to the .375" throated ones. It would be easier to simply produce all the cylinders with the .375", rather than in .357" with the .375" being special order. The production being in .357" eliminates traditional shooters )like myself) that may load the original style heeled bullets.
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Thanks for the great summation. That's very useful information.
Since RNHB bullets work well in either .375 or .357 bores, those would be the way to go for a commercial load. I know I would choose those to reload for them.
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Sent the .357" throated cylinder back to Walt to change for a .375 so I can shoot heeled bullets from both. Sort of made up my mind to switch to my .38 Colts as main match pistols for awhile. I am kinda goofy over the 140 grain heeled bullets... they look so....old timey!
(https://i.imgur.com/ZzFPkVo.jpg)
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That's a fine lineup. I take it that the 140's are the ones on the far right. What are the others?
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L to R: 1, 3,& 5 are 150s, 2 is 125, and 4 is 150 deep seated. 6 is Bear Creek 140.
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Thanks. They all look good. That heeled seating crimp is cool.
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Wow, hard to believe the project started over a year ago. Pretty much still on hold, I guess, because of COVID. I work part time at a gun shop, and heard from a distributor that Remington ammo is producing only at 20% capacity since it started getting bad.
Noit sure where it goes from here. Have not heard back from Jeff Hoffman at Black hills for some time. Still, I found hsoft hollow base wadcutters work about as well as heeled bullets. Using my .38s at the next match I do to see how the tighter crimp and 3.4 grains of TB work.
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Thanks for the update. I wondered how it was going. It's good that you found some soft lead bullets that work. Looking forward to hearing your report on those after the next match.
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:) Well . . Considering ;)
Considering the original purpose of this thread, the following will probably be considered blasphemous. However, in contribution, I do posses TWO EMF Capt. Schaeffer replicants. 4 inch barrels. Not long after I received mine, I discovered Kenny Howell had released some swell Stainless conversion cylinders that looked absolutely the Biz for the Schaeffer.
They are absolutely the Biz for the Schaeffer. I shoot them with 38Spl cases and 148Gr hollow base wadcutters. More than adequate accuracy for CAS. Haven't bothered to shoot them on the Pizza Box yet as I haven't missed a CAS target with them. No need. HBWC work a treat, yes they do.
Hide and Watch.
PS: I don't think anyone is back to full production at this point in Covid Time.
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Mike, those Capt. Schaeffers of yours are spectacular. Even more so, knowing that they perform as good as they look. :D
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Our club finally opened up for a Cowboy match next Saturday. Think I will load up some 3.5 grains of Trail Boss with medium crimp for the match to see how they do. As far as project goes, it is DOA at least until Summer if not later. Black Hills is struggling to get components for their existing line, and Bear Creek is working overtime to fill traditional bullets during this Pandemic fear silliness.
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Glad to hear your club is getting active again. It's been a long ridiculous ride. This is an interesting thread and when such a time comes as you can move forward with it, I'll be all ears. Thanks for the update. Looking forward to hearing how your med crimp loads work.
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The heck of it is, I could just load 148 grain hollow base wadcutters protruding from the case about 3/8" with a roll crimp, load them with 3.7 of Trail Boss, and knock the p*ss out of them, without tearing the case. If the tighter crimp ruins the cases, or still is lacking in poop, I think I'll abandon heeled bullets
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Your efforts will certainly add to the overall understanding of what works and what doesn't.
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Update! Nothing confirmed, but it looks like Bear Creek will manufacture a 150 grain, round nose flat point hollow base .357" bullet, and Buffalo Arms is going to produce ammo using that bullet. It will be able to be used in un-lined conversions or .36 percussions and lined or factory .38 special revolvers. DO NOT bother either one yet. It is still in the planning stage, but I will let you know.
I am Kirst Konverting another 1851 Pietta so I have a main match pair of .38 Colts. I still have plenty of primers and brass.
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Thanks for the update. I look forward to hearing when these new bullets come out.
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Finished my second Pietta/Kirst .38 long Colt Konversion (bottom). Paired with my original one from more than two years ago. Now if Bear Creek can send my some samples of the new bullet, I'll be ready. As cool as heeled bullets are, their performance with smokeless is terrible, and the too tight crimped needed destroys the brass. Can't wait to load some 150 HBRN.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZgjJhuF.jpg)
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Those are a nice pair. Good work, there. Now it will be fun to read about your experience with the new hollow base bullets.
From the grip shapes and the size & shape of the trigger guards, the most recent one looks like it is a pre-2015 model and the other a newer one. Is that the case?
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Yep, the top one I got from EMF in the fall of 2019 when the whole .38 Colt project began. It came with steel grip and trigger guard and faux ivory grips. The bottom is a Cabelas marked one that a guy sold me for his friend.
It was unfired and left in a drawer for at least a few years. I'll get manufacture date codes from them if I can. The Kirst unit popped in perfect, and timing was spot on. The wedge that was in it had been hammered it and was way too tight. You could not get it in far enough to let the retention spring grab. I replaced it with a trimmed wewdge that I had, and now it is perfect. It has a nice trigger pull, too.
really looking forward to trying them.
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Thanks, I thought that was the case. I look forward to hearing your results.
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Double tap
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I have to admit that I am really Jonesing to get the bullets and load them up. I REALLY like how sleek and slick the 1851s point. I'll need to put taller front sights on them, but thats OK. I might just load up some 148 HBWCs in the .38 colt cases to get a feel of what it will be like.
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As I said in my Cowboy Chronicle article, the original black powder heeled .38 Colt out of 7.5" barrel gave between 210 and 220 ft pounds, ME, almost the same as the .44 Colt conversions. That is also about the same as the .380 Auto and 9mm Makarov pistol cartridges, which have been used (in the case of the .380) for over 110 years as an effective self defense cartridge.
In fact, a lot of standard velocity 9mms from a 2.5' to 3.0" barrel only give in the high 250+ ft lb range.
Link to my Cowboy Chronicle article: Page 32
https://sassnet.com/Downloads/20eChron/20OctChronGO.pdf
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I have to admit that I am really Jonesing to get the bullets and load them up. I REALLY like how sleek and slick the 1851s point. I'll need to put taller front sights on them, but thats OK. I might just load up some 148 HBWCs in the .38 colt cases to get a feel of what it will be like.
Blade front sights work great and look fairly historically correct. It doesn't even have to be that tall on a .38.
(https://i.imgur.com/HDgAEHg.jpg)
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NICE! Was that originally a Dance Brothers percussion, or did you do it yourself from an 1851?
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It's actually a Uberti Leech & Rigdon. Didn't even have to make the barrel round. It still has the recoil shields but the sides may yet get flattened to become a Dance. For now it's an L&R. I did cut it to 6", which I feel is the ideal length.
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:) NO FAIR ;)
Not fair atall you guys. You're causing a nasty itch. I'm beginning to get the itch to build a pair of 1851 conversions (again). I currently shoot a pair of Capt. Schaeffer replicas from Pietta with R&D conversion cylinders innem. they run particularly fine and are actually quite accurate. I load them with 38Spl cases and 148Gr Hollow Base Wadcutters.
Of course, there is entirely too much steel left on the end of those Conversion Barrels you guys have. ;D Way Too much. I only have one pair of 1860 Conversions left, and I naturally have cut the barrel to the same length as the Ejector Assembly. ::) They balance very nicely at that length. 8)
There is however, nothing "economic" about setting out from square one to "build" a pair of 1851 conversions. After sourcing the donor guns and the Kirst Konverter parts, one can be investing some serious folding money. Especially if one opts for the Kirst "Saber River" set (for 1860s). Tiz however, serious FUN.
Play Safe Out There - People are Hazardous to yer Health!!
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I really hope this 150 grain hollow base round nose bullet works out. There is literally no one offering it except Buffalo Arms, and Dave only offers it in their hand crafted, hand cast bullet ammo, which they are 6 months behind on because he can't get components.
I have a bunch of 148 grain, soft lead wadcutters that work well in the bore, but are a pain in the butt to load.
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There is a local match a week from Saturday. I have some factory Black Hills .38 special HBWC left. I'll probably use the pair of Kirst Konverted 1851s at that match and give them a whirl....
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Sounds like fun to be had. Looking forward to hearing your report on them.
How long will it be before the hollow base bullets will be available?
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Well, Steve at Bear Creek has an original I sent him and is working on adapting the core of his 148 HBWC and re-working it into a 150 grain RNFP hollow base that can be used in .38/,357 pistols and rifles also!
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Sounds like it could work out good.
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It really is amazing how close to originals the Kirst Konverters are! ;D ;D
My Kirst 1851 Richards .38 Colt conversions:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZgjJhuF.jpg)
Original 1851 Richards .38 Colt conversions:
(https://i.imgur.com/m7ygivu.jpg)
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:) TL ;)
You Betcha. The Kirst Converter for the 1851 is really good. It is a "cross" between a Richards and a Richards-Mason but is just soooo darn'd close. I really like them.
I still don't really know what I agreed to sell the last pair I built. Silly thing to do.
Play Safe Out There
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Looks like the Bear Creek 150 grain, .357 RN hollow base bullet is a go. Just talked to Steve at Bear Creek. The mould is made, just waiting for a big shipment of lead. I should have a trial run in 2-3 weeks! I am EXCITED!
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Very cool! 150 grain will work beautifully. Looking forward to hearing the results. Will he make them soft lead so they expand easily in conversions?
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I am thinking 3.5 to 4 grains of WW231 or Unique, loaded long in the .38 Colt Case, closer to .38 Spcl. OAL.
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It'll be interesting to hear how that works out. The loading data is really scant for that caliber.
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Yep. The meager data says 3.3 grains but I know from the healed bullets it is a mouse fart load. The 38 special is 4.8 grains.
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That makes sense. Loading long would work provided there's enough bullet around the hollow base to sufficiently crimp to, or would it not be that far extended?
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:) Ha!! ;)
None of the above. A lightly compressed load of BP. Or, APP to the base of the bullet. None of that Heathen Fad Smokeless Stuff thank you.
Play Safe Out There
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That makes sense. Loading long would work provided there's enough bullet around the hollow base to sufficiently crimp to, or would it not be that far extended?
The 150 grain hollow base bullet is very long, and can be loaded long. I sent Bear Creek an original 150 HBRN from a 1950s factory .38 long Colt round.
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They must have a fairly deep cavity in the hollow base. I look forward to seeing the Bear Creek ones.
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Argh! Still waiting. If I don't get some samples soon, I won't be able to test them in time to load up .38 Colt ammo for my Memorial Day annual match.
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Are you going to try to get an accurate load worked up before the match? If so, that does make time tight. Of course whatever load has worked well with other 150 grain bullets should be close. All this depending on your getting the HB bullets in time.
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TL, Catching up after a hiatus, founbd this thread and got to the end......did you ever get the BC bullets? I ask as they are not listed on their web site...
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TL, Catching up after a hiatus, founbd this thread and got to the end......did you ever get the BC bullets? I ask as they are not listed on their web site...
Well, well, if you are the Cheyenne Logan I am remembering, and based on your location and SASS number I think you are, then your name is Harvey and you will remember this well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lizgJ1RYVCs
(apologies for the thread hijack)
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I just got a small 50 bullet pre-production sample pack from Bear Creek when I went to the Railroad Flat match this last weekend. Steve sent them to me with the shooter who sells his bullets at annual matches. He knew I would be there. They look awesome. Can't wait to try them.
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TL, Cody just ordered a HB mold from OWBM.....anxious to see how the perform in my Lightning and the 38 conversions. Abilene, THANKS for the video, seems like only yesterday, but, man did Cody get OLD! :)
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Finally working on Part two of the .38 Colt article for the Cowboy Chronicle. I'll be using a pair of Pietta/Kirst 1851 Konversions (7.5" & 5.5"). Ill be doing load development with the new 150 grain Bear Creek hollow base and 140 grain Bear Creek heeled bullets. I'll use WW231, Unique, Trail Boss, APP, and Triple 7 on the 150 HBs, and Triple 7 and APP on the heeled bullets. I already know that the standard propellants SUCK with heeled bullets because there is insufficient resistance in the heel crimp.
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Looking forward to hearing your results.
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Back in the mid 1990s, When I had my Remington Navy converted to 38 Long Outside Lubed, I purchased a .375 dia, Hollow base mould from NEI or Lee ( I cannot remember which.....will have to look at mould, when I return home, for vacation, in August). It produces about a 150 Gr flat nose bullet with 2 grease grooves and a hollow base. Will function in either .357 or .375 grooved barrels.
Pic is of ammo loaded about 1997( Need to see if they will fire).
This will be the project thread so everyone interested can be updated:
Project goal: examining possibilities of developing a Black Hills .38 Colt round that work work equally well in .375" bore cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers, and .357" bore .38 Special CAS revolvers. With .38 Special and cartridge conversions of percussion revolvers being more popular, especially with the aging CAS shooter population, author believes there is an untapped market, that up to know has been limited by the lack of suitable ammo for the .38 Colt conversions.
Possible solutions:
One is to offer their .38 Special 148 grain Hollow Base wad Cutter (148 HBWC), in a .38 Colt case, possibly with projectile not seated flush, but rather protruding approx. 1/4" to create additional case capacity (duplicating the .38 Special case) so loading data world stay the same.
The second is to possibly replace their existing 150 grain, .357" round nose lead, solid base projectile of their .38 Colt loading with a softer lead 150 grain round nose lead, hollow base bullet as was done in the original post 1892 .38 Colt loadings, discontinued in the 1960s.
Both options would work in both converted .36 caliber percussion revolvers with the larger bore, or standard .38 Special revolvers with the modern bore.
Two .36 caliber percussion revolvers are being supplied by EMF/Pietta (an 1851 Navy Colt and an 1858 .36 caliber Navy Remington) to be used in testing the loads.
Appropriate conversion parts for both test revolvers being supplied by Walt Kirst of Kirst Konverters.
Conversion of both percussion revolvers to .38 Colt being done by Tuolumne Lawman.
Ammunition being supplied by Jeff Hoffman OF BLACK HILLS AMMO. Initially, standard .38 special 148 grain HBWC will be used to see if that bullet obdurates sufficiently in its current configuration (shape and alloy hardness) to give acceptable accuracy from a .38 Colt cartridge conversion of a .36 caliber percussion revolver. Other load possibilities currently being research by Black Hills Ammunition.
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Wow, Abilene! That video brought back a lot of memories!
Jake
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Reviewing my notes from initial tests with the Black Hills 148 HBWC loaded out to the same length as a RN, Trail Boss is a non-starter. It made very anemic loads, and the hollow bases did not obdurate into the bore. WW231 and Unique both did much better. I will try those and APP and Triple 7 with the Bear Creek 150 grain RNHB and see which is better. I am betting Unique will be the winner. This round will be done with a 7.5" and a 5.5", my having traded the 4" to get the 5.5". Loading the 150 RNHBs to the same overall length as a .38 Spcl, will give the same case capacity as .38 special in .38 Colt brass. I am doing this, because the Kirst cylinders are .38 Spcl chambered, and 99% of the users will not be using .38 Colt brass!
Reprint of my July, 2020 test Summary:
1) Black Hills factory .38 Colt. .357," 150 solid base RN: From both a 4" and a 7.5" .375 bore gave minute of dinner plate accuracy, with ALL bullets key-holing and tumbling through the targets at 7 yards. Useless for practical purposes in BP revolvers with .375" bore converted with centerfire cylinder, regardless of whether the cylinder has a .357" or .375" throat.
2) Black Hills factory .38 Special 148 HBWC. From the 7.5 " with the .357" throated cylinder did a 3.5" group, and from the same revolver with the .375" throated cylinder did a little better at 3".
3). Bear Creek 140 grain .375" heeled bullets over 3.7 grains Trail Boss, crimped with OWBM's heel bullet crimp in Black Hills .38 Colt cases. These cases split (no other cases in test split), but I attribute that to my using too severe a heel bullet crimp. The rupture started where the wrinkle in the crimp occurred. The same powder charge with a 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case did not rupture. Groups were 1.75" to 3.0" from the test gun, with the 4" EMF 1851 giving the best group.
4) 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case, with 3.7 grains Trail Boss gave 2" from the 7.5" barrel using the .357" throated cylinder, and 2.5" when using the .375" throated cylinder.
5) 148 grain HBW set forward 1/4" in the same .38 Colt case, with 3.3 grains of Unique gave 4" from the 7.5" barrel using the .357" throated cylinder, and 3.0" when using the .375" throated cylinder.
6). Several other powders were tried (WW231, Bullseye) and gave results essentially the same as Unique
A) In ALL cases, whether from .357" or .375" throat Kirst cylinder, Hollow Base Wadcutters seemed to obdurate into the .375" bore to give as good of accuracy (or bretter in some cases) than the 140 grain .375" heeled bullet. Groups were consistent and the holes cut crisp and round, with no evidence of tumbling or keyholing.
B) Barrel length (4.0" or 7.5") did not seem to have any effect on this obduration.
C) The hollow base loads, while not quite as accurate as the 140 grain .375" heeled loads, were certainly accurate enough for SASS use.
D) The tests show that hollow base bullets work well in both .357 and .375" bore revolvers.
E) (FOR JEFF) The expense of commercially loading .375" heeled bullets is prohibitive, and appeals to the somewhat limited market share of converted revolver shooters. OIn the other hand, the 150 grain, hollow base round nose bullet (of the original 1892 Army loading of the .38 Colt produced into the 1960s) would be attractive to both SASS shooters shooting .357" bore revolvers and SASS shooters shooting .375" bore conversion revolvers.
F). (FOR WALT) There was no consistent difference in accuracy from the `.357" throated cylinders to the .375" throated ones. It would be easier to simply produce all the cylinders with the .375", rather than in .357" with the .375" being special order. The production being in .357" eliminates traditional shooters )like myself) that may load the original style heeled bullets.
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After quite a bit more research, I found that 4.0 grains of Unique is a duplicate for the original 1892 Army load (150 grain hollow base bullet over similar smokeless powder).
In my earlier test, 3.3 of Unique worked well with the 148 grain hollow base wad cutter, loaded out 1/4 past case mouth. (That is the load for flush seated 148 HBs) It was still on the light side (though not as the Trail Boss, which - though accurate, were absolutely mouse f@rt loads).
The Bear Creek hollow base bullets are loaded longer, increasing case capacity with bullet in it. Based on my experience, 4.0 grains would seem to be about right, and give more boom for expansion/obduration into the bore.
Right, is myy .38 Long Colt load, 150 grain Round Nose, Hollow Base bullet from Bear Creek over 4.0 grains Unique. On the left is a pre-war .38 Long Colt Army load from Remington-UMC.
(https://i.imgur.com/XWqDOoh.jpg)
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How much longer than standard do you seat the hollow base bullets?
Also, do you have a photo of one of the 150 gr HB bullets?
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The Bear Creek are identical to the original so to the same depth. I'll send a picture later.
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Thanks. I just thought to check for a photo of them on the Bear Creek site. They look like they would be very effective. No need to post one. Here's their photo.
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/39479a_4653f93b5a5e4a9e8ea3e328767973aa~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_527,h_349,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/38%20150gr.jpg)
I'm looking forward to hearing your results with these.
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I sent Steve at BC an original bullet for him to model. IIRC he took his 200 grain .357" bullet and made it a hollow base that weighs 150 grains.
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That was a good thing to do. It looks like a good bullet.
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150 grain Bear Creek Round Nose Hollow Base bullet results
I have to preface this description of the testing by disclosing that when I did the range testing, it was the day after my three day marathon wood cutting and splitting of three chords of Oak. I am 70, and have a permanently damaged right shoulder, With the added effects of three days wood cutting and splitting, my group shooting skills suffered. I knew this going into it, but mainly wanted to see if there was any key holing, or if the bullets fully obdurated into the .375” bore.
With that said, basically, the only viable load that I tested was 4.0 grains of Unique. Basic groups at 7 yards, at one shot per second (replicating CAS) was 2.5' to 3", with an occasional shooter induced "Wow, how did that get way over there" flyer. Note: I had received a early pre-production sample of the bullets, but they were harder than the recent production ones. The early samples showed some tipping, but the current production did not. Certainly good enough for CAS.
As for Trail Boss, it is no longer available, APP sucked, as all bullets key-holed with minute of pizza pan patterns, and WW231 did not meter well enough for consistent results.
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glad to hear Unique worked so well. It's a good powder. Has Trail Boss been discontinued or are they just out of it for now?
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Discontinued "for the foreseeable future" according to Hodgdon. They are prioritizing powders for producing military and commercial ammunition producers.
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Thanks. It obviously isn't a major seller.
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They are not going to replace my Anderson Truth and Justice .44 Colt conversions, but will make a good back up pair.