Turn of the centruy Russian Cav officer 02/19 - Update Nagants live!!

[Pony Racer]

MMM - I've been thinking.

A pair of single action Nagants with a Russian Cav officer uniform would be pretty cool set-up.

The nagants would be painfully slow - but what the heck.

I wonder if the Nagants with the conversion 32-20's handle BP sub ok.

I think that would be neat up on the line. What ya'll think?

PR

[RattlesnakeJack]

Wow, I personally think such an impression would be "way cool", Pony Racer!


A Model 1866 Winchester could even be an ideal rifle for the impression - the Turks used them against the Russians to great effect in one of their wars (don't recall which) and a Russian officer might very plausibly have a "captured relic" among his personal effects (though it might have to be "musket stocked" for that explanation - one could also have an 1866 sporting rifle, the explanation being that this officer - or his father, perhaps - was so impressed with them in the hands of the Turks that he subsequenrtly acquired one for his own use ...)

In fact (as you might even guess from the above), I must confess that at one time I entertained the same thought as you (but decided to stick with my British Empire roots) and actually still have a file of a few photo portraits of Czarist cavalry (including Lancers, etc.) which I collected then, that you may find of interest:













There is even one pattern of "19th Century Russian Cavalry sword" offered at IMA (certainly appears similar to the one in the first of the above photos, though it is not the "single guard bar" Dragoon pattern which appears most frequently in them, nor is it the guardless Cossack pattern which also appears.  I'd say that they have u=it in the scabbard upside down in this photo, however -


Link: http://www.ima-usa.com/product_info.php/cPath/37_127/products_id/689

Finally, for the crowning touch on that dazzling Dress Uniform you'd undoubtedly require (attire which would assuredly eclipse even the most impressive Highland Officer  ) - a helmet of the Czar's Imperial Cavalry Guards, like this "one off" being sold online in the UK:


Only £550, here:
http://www.medieval-arms.co.uk/ma/action-detail/cat_id-8/item_id-116/Imperial%20Russian%20Cavalry%20Guards%20Helmet,%201880.html

Alternatively, I suppose you could  "cheap out" (  ) on this relative bargain, which is only US$795 at IMA:

[Dr. Bob]

RJR,

Sir, with all the files and pictures that you so kindly provide to us, where do you find time to practice at the bar?  [I mean the legal profession bar, not the one with the Scotch whisky! ]  [Though, I would pay more than a penny to see you at the ballet bar!]  

See what happens when you drink diet Coke late at night.

Your Most Humble and Obed't Servant,

Capt. R. H. Dorian
Brv't. LtC., Chief Topog. Engineer
Grand Army of the Frontier

[Advertising]

[RattlesnakeJack]

You mean .... I'm expected to .... work?!?        


I'll gladly perform for - or with - you at the bar serving alcoholic beverages, but the ballet bar would not be a pretty sight!

[Ol Gabe]

RJR, Etc.,
Interesting pics, the era certainly brought out the best in uniform design and 'flash'.
An earlier post had mentioned a website called 'The Company of Military Historians', www.military-historians.org
If you go there and click on the section called 'Color Uniform Plates', then 'United States Civil War to Present', then look at Plates #753 and 630, both show uniforms similar to your above pics.
Plate #753 is listed as: Sacremento Hussars, California State Militia, 1859-1893, Dress Uniform 1877.
Plate #630 is listed as : Mounted Units, 2nd Brigade, California Militia, c. 1870.
Both look quite similar to the 'Hussar' style of the era, not sure if anyone does an 1870-77 California State Militia impression but it would certainly be an eye catcher!
Best regards and good searching!
'Ol Gabe

[RattlesnakeJack]

RJR, Etc.,
Interesting pics, the era certainly brought out the best in uniform design and 'flash' ... the 'Hussar' style of the era ...

That's for sure, Gabe!  I've never been that keen on doing a mounted impression, let alone something in the Hussar style, but they were certainly flashy!

Here are a couple of prints of Canadian units of the 1890's:

4th Hussars (so designated in 1892):


The other image file is simply labelled "CdnHssr" in my computer folder of Canadian military prints, but I believe it is likely the 6th Regiment of Cavalry "Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars" (so designated in 1890, changed in 1892 to just "6th Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars") ...

[Ol Gabe]

RJR, Kind Sir,
You mentioned a "...computer folder of Canadian military prints...", would you mind sharing the website info as I'm sure they would be of great interest to us all. You may have posted it earlier but I missed it.
Best regards and good viewing!
'Ol Gabe

[RattlesnakeJack]

Sorry for the lack of clarity - it is a "storage folder" on my own computer hard drive, in which I have saved various such images. 

The folder is not posted online anywhere ....   

[Pony Racer]

I may just have to do this.

My USRCS uniform was my making O-4 gift to myself.  I think the Russian one will need to be my O-5 gift.  The guns I can get in the mean time - but I think the unifrom will take a few dinero's.

Has anyone heard how well the Nagants do with the 32 caliber conversion cylinders?  BP subs in them?

Looks like I may be able to have the shoulder boards and repro hat insignia just in time for The VA State Round-up in April (this will complete my period uniform for shooting purposes - still have some items to procur for full dress/evening uniform).

PR

[RattlesnakeJack]

PR:

Can't help with how the Nagant revolvers shoot, as I never did acquire one....

I don't imagine that a plain "field uniform" - such as the men in the first photo in my post are wearing (or some of the guys in the fifth photo) - would be terribly hard to assemble, nor prohibitively expensive.    Dress uniform, on the other hand ....

[Pony Racer]

RJ - you are right in that 1st pic - the field uniform I may even be able to piece together at one of the better surplus stores with maybe some alterations to be prior to turn of century. The head gear looks like the same from WWI too - are close to it.

My Mom is quite good at that stuff - she even still uses the singer with foot pedal for power for alterations she does for me.  The old set-up handles the thick thread better.

I can probably get a pair of Nagants for about 300 - maybe a little less.

Does anyone know who makes the conversion cylinder for these guns?

PR

[Major Matt Lewis]

Pony,

Make sure that Nagant pistol is now SASS Legal.  I believe that 7 shooters are now illegal according to the document the Mods Committee published.

[Pony Racer]

Major - yep I saw that.

I was told that when I got my single shot 12 gauge martini-henry - and while I am not allowed to shoot it at regionals I have always been allowed at local shoots and all the state shoots when I have asked.

I will probably test the waters with local clubs after the mods document "wars" are over about the nagants before I proceed.

It will at least take me until spring before buying more hardware. this winter I got a new modern gun (taurus 24/7 pro, the two 1851's I am having converted and all the stuff for the conversion, a 1887 lever gun and a mate for my 1858 remmie with conversion cylinder and having leather made for the remmies.

Tks for the caution

PR

[RattlesnakeJack]

Don't discourage the man, Major!  He's on the track a durn cool impression, if you ask me ...  Probably intends the impression for NCOWS/GAF anyway .... right, Pony Racer?  Must be, if you want to do an officer impression - 'cause they got the double action model of the Nagant!   

(Besides, the "cool factor" of the impression would probably allow you to get away with Nagants even in SASS - if the mods pass - just by putting in a plug in one chamber (like the "safety" some of those import single actions were coming into the US equipped with ... )

And just to keep up your interest, here's a few other things  I ran across before -

First, a website selling a number of items of headgear, blouses, etc. for WWI re-enactor Imperial Russian impressions.  (I think that research could show that "turn of the century " uniforms were similar to those in use at the beginning of WWI.  For example, note the Imperial (1880's-1917 period) insignia on the caps in the photos I posted earlier and on the reproductions ....)

Link to the website:
http://www.russianarsenal.com/index.php?cPath=26


This place also sells some Imperial Russian uniform items:
http://members.aol.com/begemot/emporium/emporium.htm

And how about this - compact discs from a place called Uniformolgy, which contain images of various historical uniforms, either prints or this one (for $12.95) which displays in a graphic form the uniforms of the many regiments of the Russian Imperial Guard, 1900-1914. in this sort of format - I'd say this one is definitely a Grenadier Regiment ... :

Mostly various regimental dress uniforms, judging from the listing shown, but the final two listed are "Field Uniform, Infantry and Artillery" and "Field Uniform, Cavalry"!  Here's the site (well, actually a link to the listing for this particualr CD):
http://www.uniformology.com/RU-6.html

I notice that Uniformology also has CD's with uniform plates of:

"Imperial Russian Army, circa 1888" (18 prints, with this tantalizing little thumbnail shown;


"Imperial Russian Army Gray  Green Uniform 1914" (Last Imperial uniform before the Revolution, 9 prints):


Finally, a link to "Russian Army (Pre 1914) - A Working Bibliography" -
http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/history/marshall/military/mil_hist_inst/r/russia2.asc

[Pony Racer]

RJ you are a stud with web research.

Don't worry about getting discouraged fortunately/unfortunately (depends on how you look at things) I have a knack for being a little unconventional.

I think I can now do a field uniform for under 150.00 (I already have the cavalry boots) not bad considering normal reproduction uniform costs.

Interesting story of winning best dressed cowboy at VA State match - one of the ladies who was a judge (I didn't know it at time) came up to me on 1st day of match and said, "what you are wearing and why the pirate sword (ie. my naval Cutlass)"?  I just explained to her what the Revenue Cutter Service was, whay I was carrying a Cutlass - not a pirate sword and then told her about the Cutter Mcullough and it's exploits in late 1880-to turn of the century.

Her intial question was definitely questioning why I was dressed the way I was for a SASS match - but when done explaining - she definitely went to the other judges - saying hey did you see this guy - great costume, historically accurate and she liked that I had done so much research.

I think based on my experience that even with the Marlin shotgun ban and potential ban of more than 6 shot revolvers (Nagants and Lemats) - at local matches and at many state matches - the local clubs will allow people shooting those weapons to continue to do so.

PR

[Books OToole]

The Russian Government purchased over 131,000 Smith & Wessons.  I think they are still making a S &W Russian copy.

Books

[RattlesnakeJack]

Good move, Books!  The old "bait and switch" technique in action, via "team effort" ...   

Get him firmly hooked on his idea of a Russian impression,  having its roots primarily in the availability of very affordable Russian revolvers of pre-1900 design in the form of the Nagants, then divert him to the idea of a brace of Smith & Wesson Russian Model clones ... 

Certainly more acceptable in SASS, Pony Racer, and would open up a much wider range of historical period to draw your impression from ....

However, as an officer and gentleman, you'd undoubtedly need something of this quality, to match those splendiferous Dress Uniform(s) you'd be developing ....   

[Pony Racer]

RJ - I had a pair of NM#3 repros.  I could not get used to them - shot them for practice several times and in about 5 matches - had holsters made for them too but even after that just could not get used to them. They were beautiful without any adornment and I liked how they were quite different from my RM navy pistols

They shot well, I did not miss much but just could not get used to hand hold.  Now that sale enabled the spending spree i talked about in post yesterday - I actually made a good deal of money on my deal and still gave the guy I sold them to a great deal - based on current availability and price.

Now interesting enough the Russians were buying lots of weapons during this time period - I wonder what the naval services were shooting - of course don't know that I want to portray that time period in Naval history due to the Ruskies not doing so well against Japan shortly after Turn of Century.

Anyway I am interested enough to continue researching - I have a hard time thinking that all 6+ revolvers will be banned - I can't imagine SASS making the Lemat banned - as far as I know there are no conversion cylinders for gun and the few who I have seen shoot them shoot full power BP loads out of them - they are not a fast gun by any stretch of the imgination.

I know my gunsmith friend can make a Nagant double action into a single action one and upon research I found two very well respected C&R sites where I can get very good+ pistols at 85-95.00 each.  I could probably get the pistols and smithing done for 250.00 all toll - then add the price of the conversion cylinders (still trying to get more info on those).

But all toll I bet a pair of smoothed Nagants, made to single action with conversions would still be about 800-1000.00 cheaper than a pair of NM#3 repro's - they currently run 835-900.00 a copy if you can find them in stock.  My biggest concern with the nagants would be can the 32-20 cylinder and gun handle BP sub loads well - if so I will probably get the Nagants - if not we'll see.

Tks for your continued efforts on my behalf.

PR

[Pony Racer]

Update - the Nagants have been revived into SASS through some chnages to the "covenant" that passed.

Ok - next gun purchase will be these little guns and I know just the smith to mess with them.

Wahoooooooo - happy day

I am a nut for picking - just different enough guns and uniforms - but this will be fun!!

PR

[smoke]

Howdy Pony,  pulling this one out of the way long ago files but did you ever get this done?  I'm working on a Russian Cavalry impression also