Season's Greetings from the British Empire .....

[RattlesnakeJack]

[Old Top]

Rattlesnake,

Is it a tradition among the lively Battalions to salute with the left hand?

Top, Old one of

[Gen Lew Wallace]

...and a Happy Christmastide to our comrades in the Empire.  May our friendship stand the test of time and governmental politics. 

[Advertising]

[pony express]

Good to see the world didn't end in Canada, either yesterday!

Merry Christmas to you too!

(Nice caption on the Hussars card"An expensive bullet stopper")

[RattlesnakeJack]

Is it a tradition among the lively Battalions to salute with the left hand?

Actually, this image dates back to a period when saluting in the British Army could apparently be done with either hand!  Note that it is a "palm down" salute, which was the style used until the 1870's or later.  The chap is wearing a Pattern 1854 tunic, which was supplanted by a Pattern with noticeably different cuffs in the mid-1860's, so that helps date the image ......
  ...... unless he is a member of one of the Guards regiments, which continued to use this cuff pattern ..... 

I will look for more information on this ....

[RattlesnakeJack]

I have now confirmed that British Army regulations called for saluting with the hand furthest from the object of the salute .... until 1918!  Thereafter, only the right was used, unless that arm was incapacitated.

Accordingly, since this chap is presumably saluting the reader of the card, he is using the off hand.

[Old Top]

Rattlesnake,

Thank You I now have more information on the British Military Traditions.  Always good to learn something new.

Top, Old

[RattlesnakeJack]

Mind you, if an officer was standing directly in front of the saluter, then the right hand was to be used ....... and if the Other Rank was not "covered" (i.e. no hat or cap) then he was simply to come to attention, but not to salute at all.   

I just read a description of some pompous know-it-all, personally prejudiced by "modern" - or, in any event, non-British - military experience, giving a group of three Victorian-era British re-enactors a scathing dressing down because their saluting was "an absolute shambles" ..... despite the fact that they had followed protocol to the letter.  When he approached, facing them, one of them was to his right (and thus saluted with the left hand), another was either directly in front of him or a bit to his left (and thus saluted with his right hand) and the third was hatless (and thus simply came to attention without saluting.)

 

[Niederlander]

When I was a Midshipman at the University of Nebraska - Lincoln, I was once reprimanded by an Air Force Captain for not saluting him when I wasn't in uniform.  I had to inform him that in the Naval Services, we don't salute when we're not in uniform.  We would come to attention and render an appropiate greeting, but no salute.  To his credit, he apologized when he realized our customs were different.  Merry Christmas, Gentlemen!

[PJ Hardtack]

Greetings from the Serjeants Mess of the Columbia Detachment, Royal Engineers!

Saluting as done by Victorian-era soldiers has often been a topic of discussion at our re-enactments. It was finally resolved when I came back from visiting Fort Henry in Kingston, Ontario, where they perform daily parades, gun drills and a magnificent 'Sunset Ceremony'. The band of the USMC (wearing red tunics ....) was performing as well, several Canadians among them, some veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Fort Henry Guard had to go co-ed for both PC and man(person) power reasons. The Garrison RSM was a petite female, as was the Master Gunner of the 24 pdr gun crew that fires a gun periodically. There were also several female soldiers and gunners running around as well. I was a little dubious about all this, but they acquitted themselves admirably.

The RSM saluted as the Garrison Commander took over the parade and I'll attempt to describe the salute:

She raised her straight right arm out to the right and forward with theatrical slowness, bringing it to the 'palm down' position at the peak of her forage cap; the Officer responding alike. Hitherto, they had used the more modern 'palm facing forward' salute, drummed into them by a retired Regular Army type who didn't know better.

A video of the FHG performing the Sunset Ceremony can be ordered on line.

[Cactus Rope]

Grant
Check your PM inbox

Bob Little

[RattlesnakeJack]

One thing I still don't have a definitive answer on, is precisely when the British Army salute changed over to "palm forward" - something of concern to me considering that my primary impression dates to 1885.

In a thread touching on the subject on the Victorian Wars Forum, there were indications that the change followed the Prussian victory in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, as this style of saluting is Prussian/German, apparently.  However, just how soon thereafter the change came about is unclear to me. 

Someone on that forum posted this description of the "palm forward" salute, quoted from Otley L. Perry's "Rank and Badges,  Dates of Formation, Naval and Military Distinctions, Precedence, Salutes, Colours, and Small Arms, in Her Majesty's Army and Navy and Auxiliary Forces ....." (not the full title, believe it or not, but I'll stop there) published in 1888 - so presumably it was the accepted salute by that date -

..... the open hand (with thumb close to the forefinger ) is carried sideways to the side of the face, so that the back of the finger tips touches the forehead; the fingernail of the forefinger resting about 1 inch above the eye .....

[G.W. Strong]

I have read, but do not recall where, the US was using the palm forward salute in the 1880s. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

[pony express]

In a thread touching on the subject on the Victorian Wars Forum, there were indications that the change followed the Prussian victory in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71, as this style of saluting is Prussian/German, apparently.  However, just how soon thereafter the change came about is unclear to me. 

 

I guess if the palm forward salute was the Prussian style, then I can pretty safely assume that when I am doing French Foreign Legion, that would NOT be correct!

[RattlesnakeJack]

I have now clarified that, even if the palm-outward style of salute was an emulation of things Prussian or Germanic (which I honestly don't know, for sure) it could not have been adopted because of the Prussian victory in the Franco-Prussian War, which did not "kick off" until 19 July 1870 and did not conclude until May of 1871 ....

The British War Department's "Field Exercise and Evolutions of Infantry" for 1870 has the palm-forward salute clearly described and illustrated -







Note that, in addition to highlighting the description of the motion (with a yellow side-bar) I have also underlined text relating to saluting with the left hand, and saluting with the hand farthest from the object of the salute ......

The closest earlier version of this manual which I have access to is the 1861 edition (published January 1862) which clearly describes (but does not illustrate) the "palm down" style of salute. Although the change might have happened sometime during the intervening years, I have a sneaking suspicion that the change may have been introduced in 1870 - at any rate, that would certainly explain why they felt it necessary to include an illustration, when such a Plate was not included in the earlier editions I have seen ....

[US Scout]

I have now confirmed that British Army regulations called for saluting with the hand furthest from the object of the salute .... until 1918!  Thereafter, only the right was used, unless that arm was incapacitated.

Accordingly, since this chap is presumably saluting the reader of the card, he is using the off hand.

Very interesting. 

I know that US regulations stipulate that the salute can be rendered with the left hand if the right hand is incapacitated.  I learned this after dislocating my right shoulder during a parachute jump.  I got a few strange looks but only one senior officer questioned me about it, and then commended me on knowing the regulations and saluting instead of slacking off. 

A very Happy Christmas to our Commonwealth members!

US Scout
Brig Gen, GAF

[US Scout]

I have read, but do not recall where, the US was using the palm forward salute in the 1880s. Can anyone confirm or deny this?

This is a question I've often pondered.  I don't know when it exactly changed, but from photographic evidence it appeared to change near the end of the 19th century. 

US Scout
Brig Gen, GAF

[US Scout]

When I was a Midshipman at the University of Nebraska - Lincoln, I was once reprimanded by an Air Force Captain for not saluting him when I wasn't in uniform.  I had to inform him that in the Naval Services, we don't salute when we're not in uniform.  We would come to attention and render an appropiate greeting, but no salute.  To his credit, he apologized when he realized our customs were different.  Merry Christmas, Gentlemen!

Ned,

I had a similar experience as a young Marine visiting my Dad (career Air Force) in England.  A young and very obnoxious lieutenant (or is that an oxymoron) got rather irate when I failed to salute him when he entered the building, even though I did stand at attention.  I explained to him the naval custom of not saluting indoors when not covered or under arms, unless it caused embarrassment.  I inquired if he was embarrassed by my failure to salute, in which case I would salute him.  He promptly turned about and left the office, at which time all the Air Force enlisted laughed.  My Dad, a MSGT, suggested it was not a wise move on my part but said he enjoyed seeing the lieutenant put in his place.

On the same leave, I was waiting for the base shuttle while near base HQ.  As various officers passed I rendered my sharpest of Marine salutes.  Then I began to notice that I'd saluted several of the same officers repeatedly.  I asked one captain why, and he said he loved getting a "real" salute!  

US Scout
Brig Gen, GAF

[S. Quentin Quale, Esq.]

As a young Midshipman at Marquette U. in Milwaukee one of the fun things to do when "deployed" with Army or Air Force ROTC was to intentionally encumber our right arms with "work" and then render left-handed salutes.  Every now and then we'd get "heat" from some "martinette wannabe" but that was all part of the fun.   

SQQ

[PJ Hardtack]

Part of the hazing done at the Royal Military College in Kingston was to require cadets carrying arm loads of books to place the books on the ground and stand to attention to salute superiors. The only way to escape this was to march as body, the Cadet I/C making the salute. Perhaps this was to instill a group mentality.

When I got out of Regular Army, I served for a couple of years with the Seaforth Highlanders, one of our Militia Regiments with a long history. I had a young soldier who lacked self confidence. I worked with him and with my encouragement, he applied for ROTP training and was accepted.

Two years later, the Orderly Sgt. entered the Mess telling me that I had a visitor requesting permission to enter. He was admitted. A smartly turned out Officer Cadet wearing his cape and Pill Box marched up to me, slammed to a halt and saluted. I stood to attention and told him that he had it reversed - I was the one who was required to salute.

He said - "A salute is a mark of respect amongst soldiers. Had you not had faith in me and inspired me to apply for ROTP, I wouldn't be getting a commission." He removed his cap and rung the bell to buy a round.