Real world accuracy

[Coffinmaker]

Well Pet,
I'm not your "Dear."  I'm not married to you in any way.  So:  take your condescending attude and waltz it to where the sun doesn't shine.
Over a century ago, there was a reason to "compete" with SA hand guns.  The only game in town.  Today, there are so many better choices for punching paper, turning an SAA or reproduction there of into a paper puncher can only be described as something just for grins.
As a Gunsmith and competitive shooter, my knowledge is based on hundreds of guns worked on and tens of thousands of rounds fired.  Not
from some obscure reading material. 
Those who just think they know it all, are a real pain to those who actually do.  Oh, don't quote American History from afar.  Here, we get to walk the streets where it really happened.

Coffinmaker

[cal44walker]

Well, I guess the secret is out.........change your Uberti trigger out with a Bisley wide version and work up a load, buy some glasses and you'll be shooting a 600/600 every time. How come no one else has come up with this before I wonder. And never mind the cylinder throats of my Uberti SAA that are smaller than the bore of the barrel, the bullet will magically bump up anyway. Sheeeeesh.

cal44walker

[wildman1]

Coffinmaker said "prepare to spend lots to get better" He did'nt say it could'nt be done. You might be lucky and get the Uberti or original SAA that had all the chambers machined perfectly in line with the bore of the barrel, had all the throats reamed to the same size, had the trigger pull just right with no creep, had the barrel rifled perfectly and concentricly with the bore....... but there is a reason an Uberti costs a 1/4 of what say, a Freedom Arms revolver does. Don't try and tell me that your standard out of the box Uberti Cattleman can print 3/4 inch groups at 25 yards. It can't. Period.

And if the sights were not deficient on the SAA, why oh why did Colt introduce the Flattop Bisley? And all the people using the diopter type glasses are at least in thier 30's, most a good deal more, when average human eyesight has already begun to considerably diminish. The sight picture on a standard SAA is the same, 20/20 vision or not.

I can't help but notice that you seem to have a very, shall we say, typical European superiority thing going on. I've been following a few of your threads with interst without saying anything but I think the time to say something has arrived. You are making 2 types of posts, the first is with this snooty know it all attitude that is often not backed up by proper fact and the second is the rather poorly disguised dissaprovement of the way things are done in the USA. I'm also a European so I've been exposed to the same socialist crap as you, but I grew up in Texas before moving back here. I don't think you are going to gain too many friends with the kind of posts you continue to drum up. I'd think a little more before I spoke if I were in your position, but thats just my opinion and you can do whatever you want with it.

cal44walker

I agree with your assessment of this "gentleman" 100% but in view of your assessment do ya think your post will in any way shape or form change his way of "thinking" or posting? WM

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[petrinal]

Well, I guess the secret is out.........change your Uberti trigger out with a Bisley wide version and work up a load, buy some glasses and you'll be shooting a 600/600 every time. How come no one else has come up with this before I wonder. And never mind the cylinder throats of my Uberti SAA that are smaller than the bore of the barrel, the bullet will magically bump up anyway. Sheeeeesh.

cal44walker

let me share some measurements in my UBERTI


chamber 1 :

11,62 mm

chamber 2

11,625/63 mm

chamber 3

11,675...not being perfectly round...the swaged lead ball, measure twice, according to micrometer..varies from 11,64 to 11,675...

chamber 4

11,64 to 11,67 mm

chamber 5

from 11,65 mm...

chamber 6

11, 64 to 11,66 mm

barrel inside diameter

11,5 mm

 in my UBERTI Cattleman, chambers are too big for a 45 colt, and as a matter of   fact, I get many cracks in my cases...so the problem in many UBERTIS, at least in mine, is that...and also  a certain variation in the roundness of the chambers...not as round as my COLTS or my Taurus Gaucho..which, by the way, are more moderate in dimensions...around 11, 60 mm...a bit less.

measured with a micrometer, of course.





will a reamer  make the gun more accurate...? yes or  no,  who knows.... and probably no.... as you will have to make those chambers even bigger, developing many more broken cases.

working on the forcing cone will make the gun more accurate? if the barrel is not adequate for the type of bullet you are using, for instance, lead, no, it wont neccesarily.

will making the front side of the barrel flat to the inside? in general yes, it helps. It is my experience.

before taking your gun to gunsmith, and spend hundreds of dollars, it makes sense to try your best to get 100 % from yourself (glasses, training, finger control) and from the gun, like a good trigger.

in this Uberti Confederate clone,  in 44 caliber, I added a wider trigger, (the picture is more than 1 year old, and yes, the gun is still not cleaned..)





just adding a wider trigger made me improve in the acccuracy aspect, as it let me make fewer mistakes when pulling the trigger, as this target shows, at 25 meters, one hand held., Note that I added a trigger stop as well.





working in a good load, which can take very long, can make you get excellents groups, and will help you to discover that maybe your gun deserves a "second chance", before getting rid of it...or spending hundreds in modifiying...


this is 1860 belgian Centaure, and the target is at 25 meters, one hand held, and only the impacts which the lights passes through, were made with the gun (I shot a previously used target, with 38, 9mm and 22 impacts)

[petrinal]

Well, I guess the secret is out.........change your Uberti trigger out with a Bisley wide version and work up a load, buy some glasses and you'll be shooting a 600/600 every time. How come no one else has come up with this before I wonder. And never mind the cylinder throats of my Uberti SAA that are smaller than the bore of the barrel, the bullet will magically bump up anyway. Sheeeeesh.

cal44walker

well, this type of matches, made with historical weapons, are normally limited to 13 rounds, for a maximum of 100  points, as they discount the 3 worse impacts.

if you use glasses, work up a load, modify trigger with a rounded and wider one, and do your part, with a firm grip, and the right pull on the trigger, you might be going from mediocre scores of about 70 points, to over 90  points or more.

I insist, the barrel in my UBERTI is 11,5 and the chambers around 11,62.

all the best

[petrinal]

Well Pet,
I'm not your "Dear."  I'm not married to you in any way.  So:  take your condescending attude and waltz it to where the sun doesn't shine.
Over a century ago, there was a reason to "compete" with SA hand guns.  The only game in town.  Today, there are so many better choices for punching paper, turning an SAA or reproduction there of into a paper puncher can only be described as something just for grins.
As a Gunsmith and competitive shooter, my knowledge is based on hundreds of guns worked on and tens of thousands of rounds fired.  Not
from some obscure reading material.  
Those who just think they know it all, are a real pain to those who actually do.  Oh, don't quote American History from afar.  Here, we get to walk the streets where it really happened.

Coffinmaker

well, in general, in ISSF matches, you wont be allowed to compete with a SAA in 45 colt or 44/40 as,  in CENTRAL FIRE, as it is only limited to 9mm, 32, 7,65mm etc.

I dont know about NRA bullseye.

however, in other calibers, it would be truly a great competitor. In fact, the design was copied by the  Czech designers to create one of the best Match revolvers of all times, the great BRNO CZ KNR 551 revolver, in the 1960´s and manufactured until the 1990´s..a true legend amont czech and german shooters....the gun was made in 32 and 38 spl...thought mecanically different, it copies the SAA idea...a single action only revovler with a fixed extractor...you dont need more in a competition revolver.

[petrinal]

it  might be obscure material for you, COFFIN MAKER,  but not for me, as I said, this material is written by a well know international revolver champion, JOSE RAMON GALANS TALENS.

in this very interesting article, he gives clues about how to grip the revolver, and let me tell you that this certainly adds accuracy...so not everything is spending money in improving your gun...

http://avancarga.com/8_articulos/25/1_revolver/temas/12_empunyar/12_empunyar.htm

it is about cap and ball revolvers but useful for a SAA too


if someone of you is interested, he says very  interestign things about Remington and ROGER SPENCERS replicas here...problems he has faced...


http://avancarga.com/8_articulos/25/1_revolver/temas/18_replica/18_replica.htm

pay close attention in the below link  to the target shown by the man in the right,  Eugenio Martin FISAC, at 25 meters with a REMINGTON replica...using glasses, of course.

the green  target shown by JOSE RAMON GALANS TALENS in the bottom, in the below link,  was made at 50 meters in the last german championship...standing one hand held, of course.

http://avancarga.com/8_articulos/25/1_revolver/temas/19_campeones/19_campeones.htm

all the best

[cal44walker]

3 revolvers in a ransom rest. An Uberti SAA, a Pedersoli Rogers and Spencer and anything from Freedom Arms. The cost is low, medium and high. Take the best loads each will fire. The order will be this worst from the bottom. Uberti, Pedersoli, Freedom Arms. Thats it. Period. To win matches at the highest level you need technique and top notch equipment. Uberti ain't top notch. Your Spanish friend is using Pedersoli and a Hege with Lothar barrels, not Piettas or Ubertis as they come from the factory. Your own groups reflect the state of your cylinder tolerances, amongst other things, being out.......inconsistency. Almost any design of fixed barrel firearm can be made consistantly accurate as long as machining tolerances are held tight and the basic design is solid. This costs money. Usually lots of it.

[petrinal]

3 revolvers in a ransom rest. An Uberti SAA, a Pedersoli Rogers and Spencer and anything from Freedom Arms. The cost is low, medium and high. Take the best loads each will fire. The order will be this worst from the bottom. Uberti, Pedersoli, Freedom Arms. Thats it. Period. To win matches at the highest level you need technique and top notch equipment. Uberti ain't top notch. Your Spanish friend is using Pedersoli and a Hege with Lothar barrels, not Piettas or Ubertis as they come from the factory. Your own groups reflect the state of your cylinder tolerances, amongst other things, being out.......inconsistency. Almost any design of fixed barrel firearm can be made consistantly accurate as long as machining tolerances are held tight and the basic design is solid. This costs money. Usually lots of it.

we are not talking about FREEDOM arms here, but mainly, how to get the best from your UBERTI. We already know that a Freedom arms is better than an Uberti...as a WALTHER GSP in 32 SW is better than a SW 38/44, however, with my SW  I was able to beat guys, in matches, armed with MORINIS, Benellis, WALTHERS...sometimes placing third, or fourth... just being beaten by the best 2 or 3 shooters who "allways take it all", one of them, armed, by the way, with and old GSP over 30 years old.

and you wont get more consistency in my UBERTI by making all chambers the same huge size. I have done it, in other UBERTIS, and  accuracy didnt improve. You would need another barrel and or another cilynder.

however, and it is mainly what we are talking here, you can get the best from it, sometimes with great accuracy, just finding the load that the revolver likes, which will take time, and if you do your best as a shooter, glasses, trigger, grip..etc...

not all accurate revolvers shoot the same,...and lets remember that the loads shared in my Uberti, were soft ball, with no shoulder (not allowed in matches) and black powder....so what is really accurate in an UBERTI....,might not be so accurate in a FREEDOM ARMS....a LOAD FOR EACH GUN, is the rule...so dont take for granted that the FREEDOM ARMS will group allways better. We can try the ROGER Spencers load, if you want, in the Freedom..by the way, I have experience with than gun...and the Pedersoli was able to group, hand held (I no longer test loads in a rest) in  a bit more than 1" at 25 meters....I dont need more!

Jose Ramon Galan Talebs used several revolvers in his career, including a  spanish Santa Barbara.  He moved to Pedersoli, which was supposed to be a better revolver (some models included Lothar Walther barrels), but does not seem to be very happy with it.

[cal44walker]

I did a little research on the CZ KNR 551. Based on the SAA?? The only similarity is the loading and ejection system which has no effect on accuracy in itself. Its an S&W without the swingout cylinder. This system has most likely been chosen for 3 technical reasons:

1) Improved cylinder axial stiffness over a swing out design
2) Improved cylinder to barrel alignment over a swing out type
3) The reduced cost in achieving the previous 2 reasons without spending a fortune achieving them.

Add the adjustable sights and this thing is as close technically to a SAA as it is to a hairdryer. Like myself and Pettifogger have been telling you, if you turn up to a Ferrari race in a Jeep, you ain't going home with a prize, even if your name is Stirling Moss. Thats the last I'll say on this subject.

cal44walker

[petrinal]

I did a little research on the CZ KNR 551. Based on the SAA?? The only similarity is the loading and ejection system which has no effect on accuracy in itself. Its an S&W without the swingout cylinder. This system has most likely been chosen for 3 technical reasons:

1) Improved cylinder axial stiffness over a swing out design
2) Improved cylinder to barrel alignment over a swing out type
3) The reduced cost in achieving the previous 2 reasons without spending a fortune achieving them.

Add the adjustable sights and this thing is as close technically to a SAA as it is to a hairdryer. Like myself and Pettifogger have been telling you, if you turn up to a Ferrari race in a Jeep, you ain't going home with a prize, even if your name is Stirling Moss. Thats the last I'll say on this subject.

cal44walker

very interesting, but I said very clearly that mechanically, is different, but the concept is the one you see in the SAA....a small frame, with side ejector, in SAA....it can be defined as a CROSSROAD.


it is exactly the ejection and action single action system, concept taken from the SAA, what makes the gun specially balanced, as compared to a doulbe action revolver, as it makes it more compact.

it is not only the potential accuracy of the gun, but  it  is how easy, or how comfortably, it allows the shooter "to get it", from the gun.

in other words, what makes a great shooting gun is not only the barrel, the chambers, but the distribution of mass, the size of the frame,  and how low the sights are above the gun, and in that aspect, the COLT SAA is a true winner, surpassed, by the way, by the mentioned Remington 1875/1890, which places the sights even lower over the shooter´s hand.

all the best

[petrinal]

3 revolvers in a ransom rest. An Uberti SAA, a Pedersoli Rogers and Spencer and anything from Freedom Arms. The cost is low, medium and high. Take the best loads each will fire. The order will be this worst from the bottom. Uberti, Pedersoli, Freedom Arms. Thats it. Period. To win matches at the highest level you need technique and top notch equipment.

you dont. You need training, good techique, and an accurate gun, but not the most accurate. We are not talking about benchrest rifle shooting, here you are standing and shooting one hand, and one million things can go wrong.

otherwise, please explain me why the russians and ukrainian sometimes defeat the best german, swiss, italian or spanish  shooters with guns technically inferior.

example:

Mikhail Nestruyev

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Nestruyev


he got his records in Centerfire with......and old depressing TOZ 49 revolver, in 7,62 Nagant...(we dont know if more or less accurate than a Freedom Arms.)..but  not with the latest german, swiss or italian semi in 32 sw with electronic triggers.
 

how? with training, and technique.

in short, a wise shooter, choosing his loads, and the best personal training, can beat someone with less technique, but a better gun.

so we should not take for granted that UBERTIS are not capable of very good results in accuracy, without spending much money or modifying the gun

. "It is the Indian, not the arrow...."..we say here.

all the best

[cal44walker]

Its nowhere even close. You are talking to Pettifogger, a gunsmith and myself, a gunsmiths master apprentice in training in Europe where I see alot of these kinds of firearm, and you're trying to convince me that the reason a certain Czech gun is accurate, is to do with it being a SA trigger and a fixed ejector? Try, well I don't know....

1)Barrel boring diameter tolerance
2)Barrel boring straightness
3)Barrel boring centering within the mass of the barrel itself
4)Barrel boring surface quality
5)Rifling concentricity
6)Rifling depth tolerance
7)Rifling type
8)Rifling twist tolerance
9)Forcing cone size
10)Forcing cone surface quality
11)Forcing cone centricity in relation to the bore itself
12)Cylinder axis alignnment in realtion to the barrel axis
13)Cylinder alignment in relation to the barrel centerline
14)Alignment of induvidual chamber to the axis of the bore and the barrel
15).....ah stuff it......

I could add about 30 more specifications needed that have more influence on a revolvers accuracy that a wider trigger and a pair of glasses to allow you to see as the guy next to you who has 20/20 and is looking at the same sight picture. And all the good technique in the world is wasted if your equipment can't deliver consistant results. And that is the end of that.

The question to the original answer of the real world accuracy with your typical repro revolver is this: Hit and Miss. If you are lucky you will recieve a revolver that by chance has the tolerances in all the right places and is inherantly accurate out of the box. It is unlikly but someone will get one somewhere. The time and machining tolerances required to produce a CONSISTANTLY accurate revolver cannot under any civilized circumstances be achieves at the price of the typical italian repro. However, for example, if your cylinder throats are undersized, and your barrel tolerances consistant you can do a considerable amount to help accuracy. Each gun will react differently to otherwise identical modifications and there are no written in stone rules on how much better a certain gun will shoot with a certain amount/type of work. Add in good technique and good results are LIKELY.

ca44walker

[cal44walker]

you dont. You need training, good techique, and an accurate gun, but not the most accurate.

Only in an arena where the best of the best are not competing would this statement be true. And I do know what I am talking about. I turned up to our National Muzzleloading matches this summer and took gold with a Pedersoli Pennsylvania flintlock rifle with open sights. There are so few Blackpowder shooters that its not that hard to take medals home. Probably the reason that your Portuguese freind has stayed in Blackpowder competition. He would would be another face in the midpack if he competed in slow fire bullseye in the USA.

cal44walker

[cal44walker]

he got his records in Centerfire with......and old depressing TOZ 49 revolver, in 7,62 Nagant...(we dont know if more or less accurate than a Freedom Arms.)..but  not with the latest german, swiss or italian semi in 32 sw with electronic triggers.
 

how? with training, and technique.

Nope, he picked a good one and combined that with natural talent.

We have a saying too: Put enough monkeys in a room with typewriters and one of them will write a Shakespeare play. Same with even the "inferior" guns of East Europe.

cal44walker

[petrinal]

Its nowhere even close. You are talking to Pettifogger, a gunsmith and myself, a gunsmiths master apprentice in training in Europe where I see alot of these kinds of firearm, and you're trying to convince me that the reason a certain Czech gun is accurate, is to do with it being a SA trigger and a fixed ejector? Try, well I don't know....

1)Barrel boring diameter tolerance
2)Barrel boring straightness
3)Barrel boring centering within the mass of the barrel itself
4)Barrel boring surface quality
5)Rifling concentricity
6)Rifling depth tolerance
7)Rifling type
8)Rifling twist tolerance
9)Forcing cone size
10)Forcing cone surface quality
11)Forcing cone centricity in relation to the bore itself
12)Cylinder axis alignnment in realtion to the barrel axis
13)Cylinder alignment in relation to the barrel centerline
14)Alignment of induvidual chamber to the axis of the bore and the barrel
15).....ah stuff it......

I could add about 30 more specifications needed that have more influence on a revolvers accuracy that a wider trigger and a pair of glasses to allow you to see as the guy next to you who has 20/20 and is looking at the same sight picture. And all the good technique in the world is wasted if your equipment can't deliver consistant results. And that is the end of that.

The question to the original answer of the real world accuracy with your typical repro revolver is this: Hit and Miss. If you are lucky you will recieve a revolver that by chance has the tolerances in all the right places and is inherantly accurate out of the box. It is unlikly but someone will get one somewhere. The time and machining tolerances required to produce a CONSISTANTLY accurate revolver cannot under any civilized circumstances be achieves at the price of the typical italian repro. However, for example, if your cylinder throats are undersized, and your barrel tolerances consistant you can do a considerable amount to help accuracy. Each gun will react differently to otherwise identical modifications and there are no written in stone rules on how much better a certain gun will shoot with a certain amount/type of work. Add in good technique and good results are LIKELY.

ca44walker

shooting is a combination of both man and machine, a wider trigger and some glasses can make a significant advance in your shooting results.

we are getting  90 points out of 100 possible with UBERTIS on a regular basis in our local matches, at 25 meters,  with means many 10´s and many 9´s in the O ring, specially with the 44/40´s.

about your tecnical descriptions, I am a certified machinist, have my own  machine shop, with my own lathe and mill,  nothing new.


about JOSE RAMON GALAN, he is not portuguese, but SPANISH, and got his world records in different countries, the last ones, in GERMANY.

 regarded as an ELITE SPORTMAN, by the spanish government, he was, among other titles,  twice Europe Champion in duelling pistol, World champion in  MLAIC COLT revolver (original bp revolver) with 96 out of 100 points, in ITALY, Winner fo several silver and bronze medals in TANZUTSU, Tanegashima and HIZADAI modalities in INDIANA, USA, in 2004,  world champion in TANSUTSU and second place in Mariette, in ADELAIDE, Australia, 2008...gold medal in MARIETTE (revolver, bp) in Finland, 2011, Europe Championship...becoming Europe Champion again in Revolver....and so on and so on and so on...

in order to compete in an international level, you must get a classification in NATIONAL MATCHES, and get your approval by the national shooting federation, who will choose your team.

all the best.

pd: I dont know him in person, but he has been for years promotign the shooting sports and specially muzzleloading and Historical metallic cartrigde firearms, beign well know personality in this aspect. 

[cal44walker]

 

goodnight




all the best................


cal44walker