Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => Gun Reviews => Topic started by: sclearman on December 26, 2019, 07:02:32 PM
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I'm brand new here, I've searched and found lots of info but I can't seem to nail down an answer. I want to start acquiring my gear. I'm not at all new to firearms. What I want to get is something a working cowboy type would have. I'm thinking some type of conversion revolver, possibly a cap and ball I would have carried and had converted, or bought as inexpensively as I could. I'm actually kind of wanting to stay away from the 1873 Colts, my thinking is they would have been too expensive for my character.
What would have been the most economical cartridge revolver purchase for someone in the early 1870's? I really like the look of a 5.5" Colt conversion. Would that fit the 'realistic' criteria?
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The Uberti conversions, Richards Type II and Richards-Mason, are mostly fairly accurate renditions of originals, although The .44 (and .45) guns are a tad larger than originals. The .51 Richards Mason in .38 is even pretty accurate size-wise. Any of those would fit your criteria. As you mentioned, SAA's were pretty pricey for a lot of folks, and percussion and conversion pistolas were much more prevalent than movies taught us, though lately that has improved somewhat. Longer barrels were certainly more common but there were plenty that were sawed off to various lengths as well. I have them in 4 3/4" to 7 1/2" and love them all.
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Other than caliber selection, which I already know will be inaccurate historically, are there any of the models that were not available back then?
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Any brass frame revolver unless a CW copy of a cap 'n' ball originally issued in a brass frame, i.e Griswold and Gunnison.
RCJ
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I've got a pair of the Man-With-No-Name '51 navies that are very accurate and fun to shoot. They are my main match revolvers for CAS matches.
I've also got a pair of Uberti Leech and Rigdons that have been turned into Augusta model C.H. Rigdon's with 12 stop cylinders.
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You can shoot 44 Colt in the '60 conversions and .38 Colt in the '51 conversions, which would be accurate. Of course, originally those were heeled bullets and modern versions are inside lubed. If you want more accurate caliber, you could convert a percussion gun and load heeled bullets.
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The caliber I buy will be .45 Colt. I was wondering what would be historically accurate 'looking', just on outward appearance alone. For example the Uberti 1860 conversions with 5.5" barrels, was that weapon actually available to buy 'out west' in the early 1870's? If not what was?
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Don?t get hung up in minutiae as the average fellow shooter won?t know or even care how exact your impression is. I put together a fairly nice 1904 British RE uniform complete with a Wilkinson R.E. sword [Edward V11 crown] that was correct match to my 1900 Webley Wilkinson Revolver. It had an old sword knot that I bought from a dealer in Britain. Anyway, to my total amazement I had a shooter compliment me on the swordknot and was knowledgeable about it. Such appreciation of accoutrement authenticity is very rare. Go by the 20 foot rule and you?ll be fine.
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Don?t get hung up in minutiae as the average fellow shooter won?t know or even care how exact your impression is. I put together a fairly nice 1904 British RE uniform complete with a Wilkinson R.E. sword [Edward V11 crown] that was correct match to my 1900 Webley Wilkinson Revolver. It had an old sword knot that I bought from a dealer in Britain. Anyway, to my total amazement I had a shooter compliment me on the swordknot and was knowledgeable about it. Such appreciation of accoutrement authenticity is very rare. Go by the 20 foot rule and you?ll be fine.
But I want it to be accurate (historically)
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Then start doing your research. Hit the books and museums. You?ve got to make some decisions. I?ve shot with civil war re-enactors who would take their new bought shirts apart so they could hand stitch them back together so as to be period correct. How deep in the details do you want to go. Or generic? You need to build a persona with a history. Is your working cowboy a CW or Span Am veteran, enlisted or an officer? never in the military? grew up out west or back east? ex cavalry? ex lawman? a criminal? an immigrant as many were? Whats your time frame? Indian wars or later? All these things factor into your ?cowboys? choice of firearms. Some of the large ranches even discouraged their hands from carrying sidearms. SASS? Classic Cowboy Category requirements might help. Have fun and good luck. We want pictures.
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Okay, per your criteria, I would say that in the early '70's, most conversions will be long barrel. Not all, but most. As Time Marches On, more and more are cut down because of damage, easier concealment, personal preference, whatever, or even ordered that way. So the short barrel is "historically accurate" but the long barrel "most commonly historically accurate" at that time. IMO.
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Another thing to consider sclearman is that the Winchester 1873 rifle was never chambered in 45 colt, only modern repros. Gun companies back then refused to chamber their guns in another company?s cartridge so they would create their own. You need to use .44-40s in your 1873 winchester and whatever pistol you choose to be authentic. Your 73 colt peacemaker can be 45 but most cas shooters keep it simple and run the same ammunition in both their revolvers and rifles. I was behind a shooter who loaded his not the same pistol ammo into his rifle and when he levered it locked the rifle up =10 misses. All my cas guns are 45lc but I do have 2 muskets in 44-40.
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Okay, per your criteria, I would say that in the early '70's, most conversions will be long barrel. Not all, but most. As Time Marches On, more and more are cut down because of damage, easier concealment, personal preference, whatever, or even ordered that way. So the short barrel is "historically accurate" but the long barrel "most commonly historically accurate" at that time. IMO.
Another thing to consider sclearman is that the Winchester 1873 rifle was never chambered in 45 colt, only modern repros. Gun companies back then refused to chamber their guns in another company?s cartridge so they would create their own. You need to use .44-40s in your 1873 winchester and whatever pistol you choose to be authentic. Your 73 colt peacemaker can be 45 but most cas shooters keep it simple and run the same ammunition in both their revolvers and rifles. I was behind a shooter who loaded his not the same pistol ammo into his rifle and when he levered it locked the rifle up =10 misses. All my cas guns are 45lc but I do have 2 muskets in 44-40.
Many thanks to you all for the assistance. I really appreciate it. I'm not sure how many shoots I'll end up going to, but I love firearms and the history that goes with them. I want to try to be accurate as practical, maybe instead of the 20 foot rule I could use the 5 foot rule.....something that looks like it would have belonged unless you actually pick it up and examine it. I have a Ruger flat top and while it is a good gun, I'm not a fan of 'the look'. I think an 1860 conversion may be the way to go.
As for the caliber realism, I understand .45 Colt was never chambered in a rifle but factory loads are a lot easier to find. Mainly I think I'm going to get the pistol just to carry around my place when I'm out working or hunting and such. I've got just a little bit of property we live on out in the country and I always have a gun with me when I'm out, might as well have a really cool gun. And .45 Colt would probably be better against a wild hog or coyote than 9mm. Eventually I will get an 1873 rifle as well just 'cause I've wanted one for a long time and it's a really beautiful gun.
I'm convinced there is no such thing as a 'mid-life crisis". I just turned 50 and can finally here in mid life afford to buy the things I've wanted since I was a kid, at least some of them anyway.
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Forgot to say that I also do some of my own leather work from time to time, made a few holsters that I wear on duty. I'm actually looking forward to making a holster and belt for this as well. Something that a frugal hard working guy would have made for himself while sitting around during the cold months.
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PLUS ONE to Abilene and Baltimore Ed,
I will also add, unless you want to go with Percussion Guns, getting all wrapped up the minutiae involved in the guns is only going to lead to frustration. Consider: .45 Colt didn't show up until the Colt "Strap Guns" ("73 Peacemaker). .45 Colt NEVER showed up in an 1800s lever rifle. the 44-40 didn't show up until the Winchester 1873 Rifle. Neither the 1873 Colt nor the 1873 Rifle were common in the era you're looking at. You CANNOT use Hollywood or Saturday TV as your examples. Handguns and rifles in proliferation would have mostly been Conversions. .38 Conversions and .44 Conversions. Henry Rifles and 1866 Rifles.
Lots of research and lots of time perusing the proffered replica guns of the era. Our guys have already provided you with the best ideas, which you don't like. Your Call. We're a Lighthouse.
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sclearman, since you are going for the period correct LOOK, versus actual calibers, and you mentioned that an early 1870's fellow might not be able to afford the new SAA. Well, for the same reason he might also have had a hard time buying a new '73, so would be more likely to carry an 1866 or Henry. Which is not to say he might not have come across a '73 some other way (or bought one after a big poker hand :D ). Just thinking out loud.
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PLUS ONE to Abilene and Baltimore Ed,
I will also add, unless you want to go with Percussion Guns, getting all wrapped up the minutiae involved in the guns is only going to lead to frustration. Consider: .45 Colt didn't show up until the Colt "Strap Guns" ("73 Peacemaker). .45 Colt NEVER showed up in an 1800s lever rifle. the 44-40 didn't show up until the Winchester 1873 Rifle. Neither the 1873 Colt nor the 1873 Rifle were common in the era you're looking at. You CANNOT use Hollywood or Saturday TV as your examples. Handguns and rifles in proliferation would have mostly been Conversions. .38 Conversions and .44 Conversions. Henry Rifles and 1866 Rifles.
Lots of research and lots of time perusing the proffered replica guns of the era. Our guys have already provided you with the best ideas, which you don't like. Your Call. We're a Lighthouse.
I appreciate all the advice. I never said I don't like it, and I really hope I haven't given that impression.
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I have a pair of Uberti 1872 Open Top's available. 5 1/2" barrels, .44 Spl. chamber (I use .44 Colt brass) with brass Navy size trigger guards and back straps. Nice pair to start out with. Original boxes and paper work. $600 plus shipping to your FFL.
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Ok...here is my 2 cents
the best bang for your Buck ?
Contact Gary Barnes @ Cartridge Conversions http://www.cartridgeconversion.com/
( check out his Client Projects " Dexter " ) yes it is MY Gun
Have him build you a defarbed kirst converted 5"cut Pietta or Uberti 1860 Army have him re nitrate blue the de farbed cut barrel delete the ramer
and Bob is your Uncle.
I can't quote it and I have no dog in the fight...but you will have your .451 caliber (45 Colt ) as close to correct period dimensions as you'll come in a Replicant .
Dam fine shooter to
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OR Hell $600 bucks for Pard Johnson Bars guns :o
Don't walk run to that deal !
also no dog in the fight ...I do however know both gents personally and both are TOP drawer fellows
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Holy Guacamole Padawan :o
If I didn't already have .44 Barrels and Cylinders on my Open Tops ..... I'd be all over Johnson Barr's pair of guns. $600 for the pair is an excellent price.
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Yes it is!
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I am restricted from using more than two handguns, other wise I'd jump at Johnson Barr's offering.
SIGH!
Oh well, some lucky person will snap 'em up.
RCJ
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Did some (a lot) of research after reading your question..The price of a colt open top in 1872- 75 went around $13 - $17 ..But if you sent Colt your 1860 cap and ball revolver they would convert it for you for around $3.50...And a Colt SAA/model P sold for $17 in 1875.
So unless you had a colt cap and ball revolver at the time to send back to Colt for a conversion
You would be looking at spending about the same amount for the open top or the 1873 Colt in 45 cal.
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Did some (a lot) of research after reading your question..The price of a colt open top in 1872- 75 went around $13 - $17 ..But if you sent Colt your 1860 cap and ball revolver they would convert it for you for around $3.50...And a Colt SAA/model P sold for $17 in 1875.
So unless you had a colt cap and ball revolver at the time to send back to Colt for a conversion
You would be looking at spending about the same amount for the open top or the 1873 Colt in 45 cal.
Excellent information. If you don't mind, where did you find it? I've looked everywhere I could think to find that info, including here.
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very few if any Single Action Army's were even available outside the Government issue in 73-75 .
In fact if one might had acquired one, it was probable it was sold (read stolen) by a trooper in search of profit , whom was quickly punished .
and the early SAA would be 7 1/2"
It would be in the early 80's before they were offered shorter and available to the populist in any numbers.
Early on in the mid seventies the S&W #3 American might be had.
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Excellent information. If you don't mind, where did you find it? I've looked everywhere I could think to find that info, including here.
WOW!,,I was just browsing through google and went through a ton of sites...You can google "cost of COLT 1871 in 1871" and quora pops up showing the cost of the open top and then the Colt model p in 1873..Also google prices of guns in 1872 ,, Or check out THE PORTABLE PRESS site under "Where the money went " It gives prices and wages for 1860,,,from guns to groceries to slaves..,,also check out .www.guns.com/news/2012/12/13/the-cartridge-conversion-revolvers
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Tother thing to remember. 16 or 17 Bucks was a LOT of 1874 money. Not many working folks could afford the cost of a "New" Colt. Or a new S&W #3. Conversions were the name of the game. Converted 1851s and 1860s were the vast majority of side arms and there were bunches of folks who prefered and carried guns with "loose" ammunition right up to the turn of the century. Choices abound. Decisions, decisions, decisions. Oh, and the Least common cartridges were 44-40 and 45 Colt.
If one really wants conversions that are very close to correct size and in appearance, conversions can be built for around 1500 to 2 Grand. A little less picky and Uberti "ready mades" are far far cheaper. Unfortunately, the Uberti "ready mades" require some serious TLC to be CAS ready. For a Duffer, probably fine right out of the box. Oh, and shorter barreled conversions are a modern iteration. Factory converts were 7 1/2 or 8 inch barrels.
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what he said !
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TLC on Uberti's Open Tops, so true as I have learned. I recently bought the 1872 Open Top Army in 38 Special. It's in Mike's hands now to correct everything, tuning plus bolt block. I assume you who Mike is. Goonsgunworks. It will be ready for CAS though I may never actually particapate in CAS.
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To add my two cents I believe the Spencer would have been used by many a cowboy and rancher in that time period. A lot would have been bought relatively cheap by discharged soldiers or bought surplus as they were replaced by trapdoors. Repro?s can be had in 45 colt.
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In Colt's standard product line, they did not offer the 1851, 1861, 1860 Conversions or the open top in 5 1/2" barrel lengths.