Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Cas City Historical Society => Topic started by: WaddWatsonEllis on September 08, 2009, 09:10:56 PM
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I have been asked if I might be interested in doing some docent work here in Sacramento...
I understand that a Californio circa 1860 would probably be carrying a C&B pistol in a holster, a big Bowie on the other side .... but what else? I have thought of a leather Civil War era shot pouch on worn on the back of the belt, but were powder horns still common? Or would our man be carrying a copper powder flask?
And would that flask be on a shoulder strap or somehow attached to the belt?
I guess what I am asking for is some help from you history and reenactment buffs ....
Help!!
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Howdy Pard!
I remember wandering around the old fort in Sacramento and also Old Sacramento; the fort was a bit earlier, like 1830s-40s and earlier, if I recall, while Old Sacramento played up their Pony Express heritage (1860). Are you looking at being a docent for one of these?
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It is looking like I might be giving walking tours in Old Sacramento ..... but at Sutter's Fort, due to its much earlier emphasis, I would think that the weapons would be C&B musket-pistols and muzzle loading rifles ....
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Take a look at the Time-Life series 'The Old West'.
You'll see a number of good photos of folks from that era and locale.
What you'll carry is what your Impression would have - so work on exactly what you wish to portray.
Your weapons would definitely be cap and ball, though exactly 'what' they might be will depend largely upon what you decide to be, though if you're portraying an actual 'Californio', you need to be looking at a heavy Spanish influence in dress.
Talk to the folks who want to put you to work, and see what their ideas are.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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St George,
My thoughts exactly ... I was aiming at one of the aristocratic Vaqueros or perhaps a Norte Americano who had accepted the Californio way of life ...
Time-Life Series 'The Old West' ... I'll have to see if the library can get it for me .....
I am thinking a Ruger Old Army would, to the average tourist, look for all practical purposes like a 1858 Remington. It was a copromise to get the best theatrical effect wed with the best of modern mettalurgy and a gun that can sit in a holster for a long time and be charged and shot with mimimum maintenance ....
I have a pair of pants and vest that matches, and they are making me a leather lined Vaquero jacket that will match the vest and pants ....
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I'd give thought to dropping the idea of the Ruger 'Old Army', since it's an amalgam of several revolvers and a replica of none.
Look for a Colt 1851 Navy, instead, as they were highly popular - especially in California.
Carry it in a nicely-carved Slim Jim, and don't worry about a flask or anything similar for 'in-town' use - and you don't need a large Bowie, when a smaller Dirk was equally popular.
You might want a nice single-shot Derringer - and Dixie has a couple of very nice ones that'll work well.
You'll be amazed at how many folks actually 'do' know something about the Old West and what was used, and folks who go to these things are already historically interested - otherwise, they'd find something better to be doing with their time.
If you're going to portray someone from the era - you owe it to the viewing public to make your Impression as accurate as possible.
For local color and such, you can even use a sash, and a 'good' sombrero as well - but finding a 'good' one can be difficult.
As to the Time-Life series - the local Public Library probably already has it, since it's been available for years.
Good luck!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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The pistols are purchased now, so there is no going back for the time being .....Ruger Old Army it will be ... but in a slim jim crossdraw holster from Will Ghormley.
And one never knows ... I might get a deal I just can't resist next spring and 'have' to buy that 1851 Navy ... although if I was going to get a pistol without a topstrap, I would rather have a Walker.
I already own an 1863 Remington Pocket Pistol converted to .32 S&W cartridge ... it will have to take the place of a derringer .... for right now at least .... again, a bit of an anachronism, but until I find that ultimate deal on that Dixie Derringer, it will have to do.
Again, the big Bowie I already own ... although I think it is going to be fitted with an antelope antler handle ....
I will do my best to be historically accurate .... and since all this is coming out of my very fixed (retired) budget and is a volunteer position, I will always be caught between being the best that I can be at the best that I can afford ....
Hat; in Old Sacramento itself we have a reenactment clothing shop called Sacramento Dry Goods .... and they have a palmetto planters cap in there that I will probably use ... not exactly a sombrero, but there are paintings of Sutter wearing Vaquero clothes and just such a hat .....
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I'm with St. George
"You'll be amazed at how many folks actually 'do' know something about the Old West and what was used, and folks who go to these things are already historically interested - otherwise, they'd find something better to be doing with their time.
If you're going to portray someone from the era - you owe it to the viewing public to make your Impression as accurate as possible."
Skip the Ruger, in your impression ( save them as your SASS shooters ) and just a carry the knife so long as it's period . As for the Walker, contrary to Lonesome Dove a Walker was not a belt pistol. However, the 51 Navy was and many more were produced.
Another choice , would be a 49 baby Dragoon.
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The Bowie fits into the era - as does your proposed hat and clothing - and you can make it more 'Californio' by adding more decoration, should you find something.
As to an affordable Navy Colt, or Model 1849 - look at pawn shops and gun shows where the dealers cater to 'Black Guns'.
They often have BP revolvers that came in as trades, and in most places, used BP guns are a drag on the market, so the dealers will usually be pretty happy to get rid of them.
Do look for a steel-framed one - the brass frames aren't right, they're just cheap.
Ebay has a myriad of good-quality holsters for sale, as well - and you can save money by carefully reviewing from time to time.
Walkers and Dragoons were 'Horse Pistols' and were carried in pommel holsters - the TV series 'Lonesome Dove' and 'Desperado' notwithstanding - they were too heavy for normal belt use.
Good Luck!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Well, as much as the Rugers are maligned for the historical anachronisms, they are already bought and fait accompli.
I will look around for a .36 cal Navy Colt; I just don't like .36 Cal weapons ... the round and weapon may have been possible, but as it was proven after the Boxer Rebellion (much later in history, I know), the round is just not that powerful. After the Marines held out in Beiping and were rescued by the Expeditionary Force, they found several officers with expended .36 Caliber Colts in their hands and a Boxers knife in their body. The Boxer may have been killed by the little .36 Caliber, but they lived long enough to kill the Colt's Owner.
By the way, for anyone interested in the Boxer Rebellion, here is a Wikipedia site for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion
There was also a fairly good movie about the Marines in the American Garrison called '55 Days at Peking' .... Dramatized and 'Hollywooded' for sure, but still a good movie.
It was this discovery that caused the beginnings, under Col. Thompson, of the .45 Caliber ACP; designed to be a 'one round knockdown'; to stop someone in their tracks, even if the round only hit the person in a limb.
Of course, I am sure that I will be reminded that Wild Bill Hickock and others seemed to do quite nicely with their .36 Caliber revolvers ... and I will look for one in the coming year and put it in a slim jim holster .... just would rather be carrying something in the .42-.45 Caliber range.
But my main reason for starting this thread had nothing to do with weapons. I was wondering about wether a powder horn and something like a possibles pouch would still be carried (to hold extra balls and powder, money, etc). And I have gotten my answer that no, a Californio not far from home would have relied on the five rounds inside his pistol and not carried any more.
I want to thank every person who has helped me by giving his opinion on this, and will add to this when I get more info... for instance, add a pic when the Vaquero jacket has been picked up.....
Thanks again!
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I will look around for a .36 cal Navy Colt; I just don't like .36 Cal weapons ... the round and weapon may have been possible, but as it was proven after the Boxer Rebellion (much later in history, I know), the round is just not that powerful. After the Marines held out in Beiping and were rescued by the Expeditionary Force, they found several officers with expended .36 Caliber Colts in their hands and a Boxers knife in their body. The Boxer may have been killed by the little .36 Caliber, but they lived long enough to kill the Colt's Owner.
It was this discovery that caused the beginnings, under Col. Thompson, of the .45 Caliber ACP; designed to be a 'one round knockdown'; to stop someone in their tracks, even if the round only hit the person in a limb.
Of course, I am sure that I will be reminded that Wild Bill Hickock and others seemed to do quite nicely with their .36 Caliber revolvers ... and I will look for one in the coming year and put it in a slim jim holster .... just would rather be carrying something in the .42-.45 Caliber range.
But my main reason for starting this thread had nothing to do with weapons. I was wondering about wether a powder horn and something like a possibles pouch would still be carried (to hold extra balls and powder, money, etc). And I have gotten my answer that no, a Californio not far from home would have relied on the five rounds inside his pistol and not carried any more.
Thanks again!
While your observations on the Boxer Rebellion (as well as the Phillipine Insurrection) and the lack of effectiveness of .36/.38 calilber revolvers may be correct, suffice to say there really wasn't a "convenient" carry handgun in the 1860s that could fill the bill. General Thompson and his Trench Sweeper was still 60 years in the offing and the .45 ACP cartridge was only about 9 years ahead of that (not to mention the advent of Smokeless Powder).
So the most available options, ca 1860 out in California would have probably have been that beautifully balanced and sleek '51 Colt or else the most common revolver to make it out to the gold fields, the 1849 Colt Pocket Pistol.
If you really need authority in the way of a handgun for that period it's most likely going to be one of the versions of a Colt's Dragoon, but good luck with carrying that around all day.
Certainly a smallish Dixon's Powder Flask may have been employed and a clever leather Flask Holder could be fashioned to carry on your belt.
But in actual practice, if a reload were needed, I'm thinking that a person might have carried a small tin in a pocket with some paper cartridges, common at that time, along with some spare caps.
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No - the 'Boxer Rebellion' happened in 1899 - by that time, no army was using cap and ball, but had been using cartridge weapons for a couple of decades.
What you're thinking of is the 'Moro Insurrection' that ran from 1903-1913, when the Army was issued the weak Colt .38 DA, - the Models 1892-1903 chambered for .38 Long Colt - that were having trouble stopping the religiously fanatical Moro tribesmen - the 'Juramentados'.
It was 'that' conflict that caused the old .45 Colt Single Action Armys to be taken from storage and re-issued to fight in the Philippines, and would eventually lead to the adoption of the M1905 that was already being considered, and would develop into the Model 1911.
During the pre-Civil War time frame you wish to portray as a historical Impression - the Navy Colts were much-prized weapons in California and in the gold fields, and brough considerably greater sums when they could be found and purchased.
For a better idea of what the .36 could do - read 'Sixguns' by Keith, and you'll be surprised.
For more on the Moros - read 'Muddy Glory - American Indian Wars in the Philippines' by Roth.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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St George ...
Thank you for correcting me on the wars ... I was just spewing what I had been taught ... and as Voltaire once said, 'History is the lies historians agree upon'.
I had the only copy of 'Sixguns' by Keith in the entire California Library System, but had to return it unread because his autobiography was so interesting that I did not want to speed read it, and got behind on my reading....
I do not like being ignorant about history, so I will get the Library to order Roth's book on the Phillipine insurrection and hope that I do not get so engrossed that it ends up to be another literary 'boondoggle' ....
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Take a look at Will Ghormleys web site. He has been doing some history writes about wandering the west as authentic era
it is interesting.
curley
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Ask the Librarian about getting a couple of 'Inter-Library Loans'.
The Librarian locate your requested books, and if you'll pay the shipping, you can usually keep them for three weeks to a month.
That way, if a copy of something's 'out there' in the rest of CONUS - you can eventually read it.
Not all require shipping reimbursement, either - some will ship for free.
Good Luck!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Curley Cole,
Will Ghormley made the holsters for my Schofields ... and I am probably going to get a slim jim from him for reenactment.
I have read his adventures, and wish I had a wife that would support me to do things like that ... *S*
He is a very important yardstick for me and I have benefitted so much from having him in my life ....
St George,
They have a thing here in California called the Link system where I can search any book in the entire California Library System.
That is where I found Keith's autobiography and his Sixguns book.
I had to turn in the Sixguns 'cause I am taking much too long reading his autobiography ... it is one of those books I really hate to finish and cherish a chapter or two at a time.
After the autobiography, perhaps I will order the Sixguns again...
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Lots of single shot and double barrel percussion pistols, as wells as a lot of pepperboxes all in calibers from about .28 to .45. Don't sell them short. At 'social discussion' distances they worked pretty well and beat a knife at ten paces ten ways from Sunday...usually.
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Forty Rod,
I have that little converted 1863 Remington Pocket Pistol.
Anachronistic, I know, but it will have to do until I find a really cheap replacement ....
Besides, when it is sitting in a holster, all that will show is the hammer and top of the strap....
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I think that you need to be much more specific in your impression goals here. To begin with, what class of Californio do you want to do? There are not many period pictures of Claifornios. By the time cameras made it to California, the Californio life style was under a great deal of pressure. There are paintings of Californios but they are of the highest class of society.
For example, below is a photograph of General Don Andres Pico (brother to Pio Pico, last Californio Governor of California) who was one of the few Californios to do very well during the American period, he became wealthy ranching and farming. Notice that all of his clothing is dark, black and dark blue were popular. The clothing is a variation on the Traje de Charro, which derives from the traditional horseman's clothing of Slamanca, Spain. The traditional clothing is brown but in Mexico and California a fancier "dress" version of this clothing, known as the Gran Gala Treje de Charro, became popular among the elite (later Emperor Maximilian would adopt it as his state clothing). This version of the clothing has given rise to the traje de mariachi, the black or sometimes bright colored suit worn by mariachi bands. One note, in the period, bright colors were not commonly seen, if they were used at all. The dress suits tended to be black or blue.
Anyway, you will notice that General Pico's jacket, which is heavily decorated with embroidery of bullion, is well fitted with relatively thin, long arms and a standing collar (indicating that this is actually a military dress jacket). He is wearing a vest, a white shirt and a tie under the jacket. More distinctive are the pants, which like the jacket are heavily decorated with embroidery and held together along the outside by a series of buttons, commonly of silver. Note that they are unbuttoned up to the mid thigh showing his white underpants. Interestingly the inside if the thighs are of a different color. This could be a riding seat (a reenforcement of that part of the pants which come in contact with the saddle) but it is impossible to know what color it is. This style was very popular in California at the time though this is obviously a very high status individual.
Below Pico is a painting of Don Jose Sepulveda (who owned one of the most famous ranchos near Los Angeles) painted in 1856. Although the suit he wears is much plainer then General Pico's, it is essentially the same. One difference is that the coat does not have a standing collar. You can clearly see the buttons along the leg and a flash of the white drawers. Also note his hat, known as a "sugar loaf" this style of hat was the most common type seen on Californios. The key thing is the shape of the crown which got its name because of its similarity in shape to the cones of sugar in use at the time. The size of the brim varies greatly over time and due to taste but the sugar loaf is the distinctive hat of Californios of all classes. Note also that Don Jose is not wearing a gun. Californios were much more likely to use a lance or the sword which is visible attached to the saddle in the painting. This sword, was a common feature of Californio saddles and you will still see a short sword or machette on many modern built Mexican saddles. While in military service a Californio might wear a sword belt ,but in peace the sword was on the saddle.
Although these photographs are of high status individuals, the basic cut of their clothing would translate to lower class individuals. Instead of dark clothing a working class charro would wear a sort of tan or sometimes light gray. Charro clothing was first adopted by the working class in Mexico in the 1600s when peons were given the right to ride horses. In many ways it has not changed much as the actual charros are very traditional and resent others wearing or modifying charro clothing (they hate mariachi bands). The basics of working class clothing would be a jacket and pants like that worn by Don Sepulveda with several additions. One would be a pari of botas de alas, seen below. Spanish for "winged boots" they are short coverings for the lower leg which act like chaps. Another thing might be a sash in place of a vest. The sash provides a distinctive flash of color and is cooler than a vest. You can also stick a pistol and a knife in the sash. If you were to wear holsters you should have a straight up and down slim jim or what they call a bikini holster (which holds the cylinder but does not cover the barrel). For some reason the bikini style was popular among hispanic peoples. Take a look at the last painting for an example, Essentially the same clothing as Don Sepulveda in brown, a pair of botas de alas, a sugar loaf hat, no vest, large california spurs, also notice that he is not wearing a gun.
On the topic of knives and pistols, the 1851 Colt Navy was the gun of California in mid 1850s and early 1860s. The 1849 pocket model and Allen pepperbox revolvers were earlier, obviously, but once the 1851 came out it was very common in California. Depending on which program you are doing in Old Sacramento, the authenticity people will not let you carry a ruger, and frankly you shouldn't do it even if they did. Bowie knives are an American phenomenon and you would not find them on a Californio. Why would they want one, they have their own style of knives which is much more Eropean. Think European stiletto, thin, double sided and relatively long.
I spent a number of years working as a living historian at Sutter's Fort and we have been through all of this. if you would like more detailed information go to Sutter's Fort and ask them for the docents costume guidelines. It is not absolutely perfect but it is a good start to clothing during the Sutter period (which ends in about 1850) and does include some information on Vaquero clothing.
Hope this helps
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Excellent post, Roscoe!
This era isn't as well drawn out as are the trail driving years and the era of the Indian Wars - though they're equally significant to the history of the Old West.
'Doing it right' takes on an even greater importance, since it's a time so seldom photographed.
Mucha Gracias!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Roscoe Coles and St George,
First, thanks for the excellent posts ... I am not drawing much information here ... as far as Historical drawings, I was actually going through the costumes of Sutter's Fort at the McKinley Library ....
And for the first clothing that I wear, it will have to be the 'walnut' clored Vaquero Jacket and a pair of matching pants and vest ... or perhaps a scarf.
I agree that the Remington 1858 (which the Ruger Old Armies are based on) did not come out in any amount to California until after the Civil War .... and if I can find a Model 1851 that I can afford, it will be in the slim jim holster I already have on order. I have three months to find such a pistol at a price that I can afford .... let's all hope that one comes down the pike.
The Calzoneras are a different thing entirely.
First, I would have to either find a source for such pants, or find a tailor capable of making both them and the long-legged drawers that went underneath them. Again, I will have to search them out ... I have not had much luck on the internet.
So, as they used to say, I am in a state of 'rigid flexibility' here ...
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All of what Roscoe Coles and St. George said above, plus...
First that is pretty nifty, portraying the Californiano culture. I'd love to do it but not a big call for it in Michigan :'(
I am not clear on who you are. Maybe you have not decided yet. Are you an Anglo or Hispanic? Are you a land owner or a Vaquero?
Remember the period if your year is 1860 or thereabout. Anglo's and the Hispanic culture were not mixing well. Anglo's were grabbing land, business and the political structure, Hispanic property owners were losing out. Neither one was a Vaquero. You can portray a Vaquero, but that would have been a poor cow herder many times Indian or of mixed blood. The Gentry were not Vaquero's for the most part. Think Charro if you are portraying the Gentry.
If you are portraying a Anglo look to what was being worn back east. If you are portraying a Hispanic look not to what the average Mexican was wearing, but to what the more pure blooded Spaniard in Mexico was wearing or if you can find them pictures of Californios - they exist in common books we all look at but they are few.
As you probably are aware, there is a profound difference between the cattle culture of Texas and and what eventually evolved into the "buckaroo" culture. Saddles, roping technique, ropes, dress, horsemanship, spurs, etc. If you are going to represent this to the public you need to know it all.
I suggest you start by doing some reading before you step into an instructors role, and I believe a good place to start is by purchasing David Dary's Cowboy Culture, University of Kansas Press. Start with page 44, the Californio culture. But then read the entire book so that you can articulate the difference. It is fascinating.
Once you know, what it is you are portraying - look for images from about the same time and look like them. I'd stay away from the traditional SASS suppliers and the Wah Maker stuff, good for that crowd but not reenacting. There are other sources, but most importantly you can make your own with some effort and that will give a superior result.
Ah yes, the guns. I think we have had this discussion elsewhere. I got it. You already have Rugers. And you are right, many probably can't tell the difference. The same could probably be said if you carried a S&W military and police (not being mean, that is just the way it is with the public). However, you know it and I guarantee there will be a few others that do and that will form in their mind what they think about the rest of what you are telling them - if they stick around to listen. Ask yourself, do I even need to carry a weapon in 1860 for what I am doing? Unless you are Joaquin Marietta, perhaps not. There is so much more to history than a few shoot-outs you may not need them. I guarantee that a roping exhibition with a reatta would impress me alot more about your knowledge base than a few gun shots.
But if guns are a must..., I get the fact that at a great distance a Ruger might be confused with a Rem NMA. But you put your year at 1860. There were very, very few old models, transition models, or NMA's available at all in that year (it is my opinion that the public in the far west did not have great access to them until after the war). Despite the repro reference to 1858 the repro mimics a gun that wasn't around until 1863 or so. Consider what others have said above, I have seen pictures of Californio's from your time period with Dragoons, 1851 Colts and pepperboxes - but I can not recall one from that period using a Rem NMA. Really consider the use of your Rugers before approaching the public. If you need to do a shoot out put them on for that, consider not wearing them other than that.
And that brings up holsters...., Will Gromley makes some cool looking stuff for sure (whatever you do don't get any of the nickel spotted stuff). But please consider Old West Reproductions. Most cowboy holster guy's use leather that does not seem to mimic what was used during the period. Rick Bachman seems to get it right. A floral slim jim straight hang holster (forget the canted stuff, I have only one reference for one of those and it was made by a military saddler) on the off side would be dandy for the gentry. A poor vaquero would have probably worn a simple leather contraption at his side (something you can make) or stuck the gun in a sash or his pants.
Meant no harm - hope nothing has offended you. But many of us on these boards feel we have a deep responsibility to get it right when addressing the public. If I did you any favors - get that book by Dary!!!!
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Although quite a dilletante, I am a history buff.
And I can understand how there were people feeling trampled on ... whose ancesters had trampled on the indigent indians to get the land that the Californios felt they were being cheated out of....
I am learning so much that I am unsure on which side I will end up ... a dandy Californio or an early Norte Americano immigrant who buys what the stores carry ... probably a hybrid of both, since I imagine that I will be representing both. I already have a vaquero jacket, vest and pants that is kind of a hybrid .... in a tan/walnut ... no source for calzoneras yet ... and don't know how the general public would react to them ... we will see.
I have found a heck of a deal on a '51 Colt reproduction. If this comes though, I promise to all who have so admonished me that I will leave the Rugers for SASS matches and reenactments and carry the '51 Colt, perhaps in a sash at first ....
The Bowie again will have to do until I find something else that I can afford .... remember, I am retired and this docent position is volunteer. One thing that will help is that I plan to change the grip to Antelope horn round, and possibly have the brass pommel nut re-lathed to a more period appropriate shape...
And as soon as I get it all together I promise to take a shot and let you guys make the decisions ....
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"I have found a heck of a deal on a '51 Colt reproduction. If this comes though, I promise to all who have so admonished me that I will leave the Rugers for SASS matches and reenactments and carry the '51 Colt, perhaps in a sash at first "
GOOD on you ;)
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If you think the gun was expensive wait until you start searching for the 6 ply reatta and Sonora spurs! :o :D ;D
Glad you are considering the pistol.
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Glad to hear about the 1851, its the right way to go. As far as some of the other things go let me say that as a historian and someone who has spent years interpreting California history professionally, its far better to leave something out of your impression if its wrong than to bring it along just to have something. In other words, if you know your knife or anything else is wrong, why bring it? Decide what your impression is, get the key things, the clothing, the shoes, the hat, etc. and make them good. From there build up your impression one piece at a time. If you bring the wrong stuff just to have it, people will know and you loose your credibility. You never know who is in the crowd.
I'll give you an example. While interpreting the history of the US Navy in the Mexican War, dressed as a sailor at Sutter's Fort one afternoon I gave a long talk to a group of people about Anglo American naval relations and their effect on American Naval orders in the Pacific prior to the second invasion of Monterey. After the talk a man came up and talked with me a little and it was clear that he knew what he was talking about, in our conversation we bandied some things back and forth, I talked about what I had read and thought and said "I don't know" when I didn't. At the end of the talk he introduced himself as a naval officer and a professor of Naval history at the Naval Academy and complimented me on my talk. Now, if I had not done my homework or just assumed that no one there would know about my topic I would have been doing them and myself a great disservice and butchering history to boot. I would also never have found out that I made an ass of myself in front of someone who really knew. Instead I had a nice conversation, learned some things and gained a good deal of credibility.
I was a docent and a Park Interpretive Specialist for California State Parks, at Sutter's Fort for years before heading off to graduate school for my Masters and Ph.D. in Historical archaeology (not quite done with the doctorate!) but never did the Old Town stuff. But I would assume that they have guidelines and authenticity people who will help you get it right. But make sure that you are always touching back to the history and primary source material. Aside from that, enjoy yourself, tell people what you know, admit what you don't, remember that you are representing real people who can no longer speak for themselves and do your best to get it right.
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Roscoe Coles,
It was exactly for this reason that I started this thread ... I figured that there would be people who knew much more than me about this area ... I mean, deep inside I am a frustrated historian, but, as I have quoted Voltaire as saying, 'History is the lies historians agree upon' .... kind of like Hollywood Westerns ....
It looks like I may have the '51 Colt ... no holster for it yet, but I may tuck it into a sash wrapped about my waist ...
James Hunt,
I don't think that people took their reattas off their saddle when they reached town, so it would not be with me when walking around ... and as far as those Sonora Spurs, I am thinking about having a blacksmith make me some Sonoran rowels and just add them to my present spurs ...
That is, after I pay for the Rugers, the '51 Colt, the gun leather , the Vaquero jacket, the ...
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Hey Wadd,
Well, Voltaire aside, there is history and then there is history. The level we are talking about is basically "what." Where historians tend to get into big fights is "why" and "what does it mean." I think that you will find that there is a considerable amount of disagreement in history and the interesting part is that history is multi vocal, which means that many things can be true at the same time. History, like life, is complicated and messy and its easy to spend a lifetime getting a grasp on even a small part of it.
Have fun
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Hi WWE,
Here is a Spanish style knife at a reasonable price!
http://www.crazycrow.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=CCTP&Product_Code=4926-012-002&Category_Code=841-400-000
Give it a look. Good researching!!! ;D
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Dr Bob,
Thanks: I put it on my favorites list for a later purchase ....
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Hi WWE,
Been buying from Crazy Crow for 20+ years. I thought that they had an appropriate knife for you. Glad that bit of info didn't pass on through the old steel sieve! ::) :o ;)
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Its definitely a good looking knife ....
I would have ordered it tonight but with three pistols, two gunbelts, and a holster already purchased, my fixed income is a little sparse ... but it is definitely on the list for the next purchase .... in fact, I am going to have to check out the entire line ....*S*
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Here are just a few prints of Californio caballeros circa 1850-1870's by artist James Walker - several others have been published in various books. Charro is more correctly applied to the traditional cowboys of central and northern Mexico rather than the rancheros, caballeros, and vaqueros of California - in Spain charro was applied to a member of the lower classes who herded cattle. FWIW I learned to ride and work cattle in the traditional California manner in the late 1960's and early 1970's and never heard the term charro used there - they were rancheros, caballeros, or vaqueros. It was in the Santa Barbara and north to Paso Robles region where many of the old Californio ways are still maintained today.
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/james-walker-caballero.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/james-walker-californios.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/james-walker-californio.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/californio-1870s-2.jpg)
A pair of Californios - one of whom is packing a Walker Colt on a belt holster...both are fairly plainly dressed and rather than just plain buttons on their calzoneras such as shown in Walker's paintings these have the ball and chain style closure. While IMO it was not common to carry horse pistols on ones belt, this is just one a few pics there is of folks carrying Walkers or Dragoons in a belt holster so it was done - but an 1851 is a whole lot more comfortable!
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/holsters/walker-colt-holster-2.jpg)
Here's a treatise on Californio entertainment up to 1848 in PDF format with several period sketches
http://www.josealamillo.com/hispanicalifentertainment.pdf
Bowie knives are an American phenomenon and you would not find them on a Californio. Why would they want one, they have their own style of knives which is much more European. Think European stiletto, thin, double sided and relatively long.
With due respect I see no reason that a Californio especially of the later period would not carry a Bowie - they certainly carried Colt Revolvers and other "American" weapons.
1) Not only were thousands of Bowies brought to California by the 49ers and later emigrants, but two of the most prominent makers of Bowies were in San Francisco, Michael Price and Will & Finck. Also there are provenanced Bowies made in the Spanish Southwest by local smiths.
While the Californios did retain much of their Spanish culture as well as possible and especially for fandangos, there is plenty of documentation for adoption of "Anglo" gear especially after California became a state - period photographic evidence as well as written documentation often shows the upper classes, espcially those who were doing business with the Anglos wearing Anglo style suits and the women wearing imported dresses. Anglos had been marrying into the upper crust families from the early 1800's - sea men and traders from the east were frequent visitors and Californios traveled east trading horses, mules, and sheep. In 1846 George F Ruxton while traveling to St Louis from Bent's fort met a California vaquero who amazed him with his roping skills - even roping buffalo calves.
2) On the other hand a Belduque similar to that linked to by Dr Bob would be more "Californio" and was THE knife of the working man in the Spanish areas, be he rich or poor. In fact the earliest known Bowies such as the Searles, are variations on the Belduque which is the Spanish version of the ubiquitous working knife used throughout the Mediterranean area. The Crazy Crow model is not bad but a better example can be made by watching for a decent quality "French" chef's knife and slightly re-doing the handle and maybe lightly etching the blade to remove the name makes an excellent copy. Watch for them at second hand stores - Sabatier and Henkels make good ones and even the J Russell Company aka Green River Knifeworks makes a decent one that can be easily adapted. Another source is to watch for the the Gaucho knives on Ebay, etc. - The Cuchillo Criollo and Facon are the same basic knife as the Belduque.
3) While stilettos were carried/used they are almost strictly a fighting knife. A problem may also rear it's ugly head - Due to the double edged blade they are often illegal for modern carry especially in California - being a custom knife maker I'm all too aware of the legal problems daggers/stilettos can cause in various areas throughout the USA.
Remember the period if your year is 1860 or thereabout. Anglo's and the Hispanic culture were not mixing well.
This would depend on whether you were a newcomer Anglo or one who had been here for years - as noted above there had been a faiurly congenial mix of the two cultures for many years and including many of the older Spaniards who had been part of the 1846 Bear War on the American side.
As to Caliifornia style spurs - prices can vary considerably dependent on style and decoration - earlier ones in particular were often left undecorated except for the decorative work of the blacksmith (call me about both spurs and rowels - I can probably fix you up.......)
Reatas - while custom made rawhide reats are expensive - the vaqueros I worked with back "when" preferred 8 or 12 plait in 60-80 ft lengths. There are places such as El Paso Saddle Blanket that sell pretty fair representative examples in 4 plait.
Perhaps more appropriate than a reata though would be a braided rawhide quirt which again can be found at many price points from cheap to expensive.
whatever you do don't get any of the nickel spotted stuff
While I agree that Sterling or Coin silver would be "better", nickel aka "German Silver" (which was developed in the early 1800's to imitate real silver at a lesser price) is a decent and relatively inexpensive "replacement" for the real McCoy. While in the east "harness" spots are generally considered to be a late 1880's-90's decoration (but they do show up on Texas/Great Plains gear from at least as early as the 1860's) the Spanish all over the Southwest just loved such "gaudy" decoration as silver buttons, spots, and conchos so based on the period documentation it would not be out of place if done properly. Take a look at the horse gear above that is rife with spots albeit again most likely made from real silver. Also here's a pic of Geronimo's holster and gunbelt which has lots of spots and conchoss. It is of Mexican manufacture of unknown date - probably 1870's though, since IIRC it was taken from the Yawner early in the 1880's, but such work can be documented to much earlier here in the Spanish Southwest. Also note the Spear point Bowie and the fact that the holster is one of the few documented "slanted" holsters that I know of - it also was built for a 7.5" barreled gun rather then the 5.5" Colt shown.
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/holsters/geronimo-holster-2.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/holsters/geronimo-holster-1.jpg)
BTW - Roscoe I'm the maker of those botas you pictured above - note in Walker's image the botas are worn over the pantalones but under the open legged calzoneras........this would be fine way to wear them in the open grasslands of central California but that sure wouldn't work in brush country!
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Here's a few more Walker paintings:
Three things to note in these first two:
1) The Spanish birdshead handled knife sticking out of the botas - this is the classic shape of a Beldque's handle
2) The tooled botas - this was done by heating a metal plate with the design engraved/etched in it and then pressing the hide (usually brained or alum tawed deer or goat) between the heated plate and a base plate
3) In the second pic you can see the sword that was often carried by the rancheros as noted by Roscoe
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/james-walker-californios-be.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/james-walker-californio-1850.jpg)
In these next two you can see the silk "pirate" headscarf being worn - a quite common piece of clothing in the Spanish SW. The second image is only a partial image - it shows then folks at a fandango and the activity going on is one in which a chicken was buried up to it's neck and then the riders came along at a gallop and try to grab the chicken by the neck - it showed up teh riders skills but was not fun for the chicken who wound up being roasted or thrown in the stew pot.......
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/james-walker-californios-b2.jpg)
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/buckskins/james-walker-californio-grp.jpg)
One thing to note about all of Walker's painting - while there is a great deal of important historical detail in them they are still paintings not phtographs and paintings that illustrate a somewhat "romanticized" view of the time and place as did/does most period art work - as always it pays to cross reference as much as possible........
Well it's late and I've got a long day in the shop ahead of me so for now buenas noches...
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Chuck Burrows: Very good post, outstanding information. Thanks for the Walker paintings. He is clearly the Alfred Jacob Miller of Californio culture although you are right he suffers the same criticism as Miller (they ginned up their work a bit for whatever reason). And thank you for clearing up my muddying the waters with Charro vs Vaquero. I guess my intent was to infer look at the charro groups that exist in California today as an example of fancy gentry style dress - but it sure didn't come across like that.
While I understand your comment regarding the use of nickel silver spots and accouterments - I don't know, it just doesn't look right to me. It looks like..., nickel silver. I could not afford real silver for my saddle so I got Mexican 8 and 4 reales with dates prior to 1870 on ebay and made them into conchos and used them. They looked good and when you do not desire either collectability or quality can be had rather cheaply on ebay, much cheaper than real silver decoration that is for sure. My resarch indicated that these were used, at least by anglos in Texas at the end of the 19th century.
I am fascinated with the horse culture of the Vaquero and today's buckaroo.Not much of a demand for that in Michigan however. I do well to keep my seat and catch a fence post (if it remains absolutely still) with a poly. ;D
WaddWatsonEllis: Not to pile on with the expenses but you can consider the following resources as life evolves for you:
Quirt - Ebay has some reasonably priced braided quirts from time to time, below is one probably vintage which I picked up for less than $40. I got it cause it mirrors one illustrated in "Cowboys and Trappings of the Old West"
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/HorseQuirt-1.jpg)
Also, there used to be some guy selling on ebay braided quirts made in Mexico, that don't look bad for pretty cheap - quality unkown.
Short Jacket - An unlikely source for a short jacket is the blanket folks at Northwest Traders - www.nwtrader.com/ (http://www.nwtrader.com/) - they do not advertise them, but there is some guy there making them and they take them to the shows. Below is one I got. It is rather course wool/linen blend with a finer linen lining with ribbon highlights. You might give them a call when you are ready as their price is very reasonable for correct work. Mine is supposedly a copy of one from a Walker painting circa 1830's.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/PersonaStuff010-1.jpg)
And finally, when that lottery ticket comes in, Joe DeLaronde makes handforged belduques that just make you want to quit your day job and learn how to use the spade bit. These can be found at www.delarondeforge.com/Knives.htm (http://www.delarondeforge.com/Knives.htm) - below is mine purchased when Wall street was still making money:
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/DSC_5734.jpg)
He also makes some of the best hand forged spanish colonial spurs I have ever seen! We are talking second mortgag here though. Bankruptcy following excessive credit care use is always an option! ;D
I got this stuff because I am enamored of the Californio culture, now I'm all dressed up with no place to go. :-\ My Morgan would draw the line at roping grizzlies however. :o
By the way I still highly recommend Dary's book as a beginning resource. Regards.
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I am constantly amazed with the amount of knowledge we have here at CAS City. I don't mean wannabe historians but people who really know what they are talking about. Thanks everyone for adding to my knowledge of this fascinating period of California history.
Will Ketchum
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Chuck:
Good stuff and thanks for the information on the spanish style working knives. I forgot to mention them and they are ubiquitous and pretty cheap. I think I will stick with my comments about the bowie knife not being something that would be used by Californios however. They had their own style of knives and I think they would stick with them. As for bowies being adopted by Californios, instead of saying "they could have used them" I think we should ask is there any historical data to show that they did. I have always encouraged folks to adopt what was most common when building an outfit for historic interpretation, this way they don't have to come up with elaborate explanations for why they have something thats not really in character.
I always think about an infamous picture of a confederate officer wearing what looks to be a set of ocelot chaps and holsters. Did this guy exist, yep and there is a photo to prove it! Should everyone doing a confederate officer impression go out and buy ocelot chaps and holsters? Probably not. In fact, probably no one should. Its just to far outside the norm. Pick your persona, do the history to find out what would be correct for that person, and get that.
On another topic, folks are correct that many high status californios were adopting American style clothing and other things in the late 1850s and 1860. One of the best examples is General Mariano Vallejo, who not only dressed in American style clothing but built a yankee gothic style home near Sonoma. both the house and the clothing are strong statements about who Vallejo wanted to be allied with. However, I think the photographic evidence of californios during this period shows that A) this was an upper class phenomenon and B) that californio and American styles were not commonly mixed. I can't think of any of photographs of californios that show people mixing styles, with the exception of the addition of firearms. Eventually the californio styles simply went out of fashion for daily wear though they remain to this day for dress or ceremonial wear, for example during the Fiesta days parades in Santa Barbara where I grew up.
As with everything I could be wrong but I would love to see any primary evidence of californios mixing traditional and American styles.
Very interesting discussion.
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While I have never seen the photo of the confederate officer with the ocelot chaps/holsters, I have seen mid 40s through 60s saddle accutrements from the Mexican region that used exotic furs. Would that have been Californio appropriate, or further south?
I would love to see the confederate picture as well if someone can point me that direction. (we would have thought him a tad fancy for our border unpleasantness.)
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James Hunt, Will Ketchum, Roscoe Coles & Mogorilla et al,
Just to keep y'all in the loop, I have:
Bought a Pietta Navy 1851 in .44cal.
Bought a Belduque from Northwest Traders
Am having a traditionally correct belt made for the Californio period ... and will tuck the pistol in the belt until I can afford to have a slim jim made. At the time the holster is made, I will probably have a six or seven inch wide 'bullet pouch' made to go in the small of my back (To not only hold bullets and a powder flask, but tobaccky and all the other things a gentleman would carry with him....
Have bought a Vaquero Jacket, and have frontier pants and vest that match. When I find a wide collared linen shirt with a button plaquete (sp?), I will wear that under the vest with a 'wild rag' folded and tied underneath. The whole outfit will be topped off by a palm straw 'Sam Houston' style hat ... much the same one that John Sutter was very fond of ...
If this docent position 'takes', I am thinking about purchasing some matching leather and a ton of 'silver' buttons ... then slitting the pants to the knee and having buttons sewn from hip to ankle to emulate calzoneras ....
And that's the story so far ...
Thanks to all who have given input to what I should need to carry ... I will have to keep a lookout on Craigslist for a quirt ...
And James Hunt, I am going to order that book through the library system ... and if it looks like I should, I'll pick one up on Amazon.com or some such....
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This might come as a surprise - but the Colt Model 1851 was in caliber .36 'only' - the .44 being an Italian manufacturer's idea of exotica to tempt gullible buyers.
'Navy' indicated the .36 caliber - while 'Army' indicated the .44.
You can find a very 'usable' Slim Jim from 'Oklahoma Leather' - just cover the logo with a concho and thong, and you'll have what was common.
You don't need any more of a belt than one made of a smooth, plain leather - with a frame buckle.
Men of the time used a vest to carry his makin's and for miscellaneous things - including a pocket powder flask or a packet of paper cartridges.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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As an aside, for those who are contemplating the Impression.
River Junction Trade Co. - www.riverjunction.com - now offers a 'Vaquero Jacket' for $159.95 - with matching trousers coming soon.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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For the same price, Sacramento Dry Goods offers a leather trimmed 'more fancy' Vaquero Jacket ...
But I really like the 'Transitional Holster' and quirt on their website ....
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I am so Chuffed! (Brit for excited...)
I just got hold of my two Ruger Old Armies (I know, I know, much to late for this period ... but they will make good reenactment guns ....
All the same, they are really nice weapons ... been gunslicked til they are smooth as buttah, have had Uncle Mike Nipples put on them, and nice faux bone grips ... last time I felt this good, I was in love ... or so I thought ....*L*
Kind of a shame not to compete with them ... maybe I might when I get to know a little more about 'The Dark Side"....
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Sacramento Dry Goods also offers this Vaquero Coat in Black, Navy, or Chocolate Brown ...
Here is their website:
http://www.saccitydrygoods.com/
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Still looking at holsters ....
I was looking at a holster that is in Will Ghormley's sale bin.
Does this look like something that might be seen on a somewhat 'dandy' Californio?
When I spoke with Will, he suggested that I get the opinion of the members here ....
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As nice as this holster and the transitional holster from River Junction are, I would stick with a plain slim jim for a pre-war Californio holster.
A look at "Packing Iron" or a talk with Buck Stinson would be in order here, but looped holsters seem to be a postwar phenomena. I'm thinking of getting a version of the early transitional holster (like the one from River Junction) for my Remington New Model Navy Conversion, it would make a good postwar set.
By the way, why the interest in "spots?" Is this just something that you think is cool or do you have any information saying that gun leather with spots was common among Californios in 1860?
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Roscoe,
I am not so much interested in 'spots' ... they can be there or not. But the holster was a sale item ... and I liked the floral work.
I also liked the high top that would have been indicative of protecting the caps on a cap and ball holster ....
But getting back to the spots, my belt will be tooled and I was looking for a tooled holster to match.... and the Califonia style slim jims that I have seen for sale are all plain and well, plain.
Any suggestions ... by the way, they were sold out of right hand holsters in the transitional one ... so that was a dead end.
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Am having a traditionally correct belt made for the Californio period ... and will tuck the pistol in the belt until I can afford to have a slim jim made.
I have one of the OK Leather's open top Western Slim Jims fer sale.
Here's their ad (halfway down the page)
https://www.oklahomaleatherproducts.com/Merchant4/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=OLP&Category_Code=B1
Mine is right hand draw, unused. $20.00 shipped.
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J.D.,
I sent you a PM .....
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WaddWatsonEllis: You said "Kind of a shame not to compete with them ... maybe I might when I get to know a little more about 'The Dark Side"...."
There is so little to know and it is so much fun, I wouldn't wait to learn anything.
Complete shooting instructions.
1/ Pour in about 25 grains or thereabouts of BP (2f, 3f),
2/ push in a lubed wad ***
3/ push a ball down on top of wad and powder
4/ push on cap.
5/ Shoot
*** {if you are fearful of chain fire (and in this day and age it is probably the guy next to you that will sue you) and/or going to shoot multiple cylinders in a match add the procedure of placing a lubed wad (wonder wads or cheaper versions are readily available or make your own using someones felt hat left behind at the last match) over the powder before you shove the ball down}
Complete cleaning instruction.
1/ Take to kitchen sink and turn on hot water tap,
2/ take out cylinder and hose well under water (probably should take out nipples and clean separately if you have the time, (I dump mine in a little cap of 90% -OH),
3/ Shove several wet patches thru bore until clean,
4/ use wet patches or paper towel to clean around cylinder area of gun,
5/ dry everything with dry patch or paper towel
6/ use anything cheap that works with black powder to displace any remaining water and lube bore and rest of gun - this would be Type F transmission fluid, the wife's bottle of olive oil (extra virgin or absolutely slutty doesn't matter), or tallow (if absolutely determined you can buy some of those expensive alternatives), (by the way for the cylinder I simply keep a little container of olive oil and drop it in after cleaning for a few seconds and then wipe the outside dry - don't reuse this oil on your salad)
7/ put guns in safe and insert the DVD "Remuda" and relax.
Before shooting again wipe excess lube out of cylinder with a dry patch and use nipple pick.
There may be more offered by what I confess to calling the BP anal crowd, but I have yet to find it matters in any way when shooting a revolver. Black powder is great fun, easy on the gun, and barring flicking your cigar ashes into it, safer than using smokeless in cartridges, at least in my opinion.
By the way I also suggest Buck Stinson (Rick Bachman). He is a very helpful fella on the phone, I know he makes the very top end of leather, but if you have a question and keep it short, he can be a fount of information. If you are but a poor vaquero make your own from someone else's boot top (authentic) or stick it in a sash, probably just as good or better looking than an el cheapo commercial job.
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Here's another book you will find interesting:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41EG3V2D2RL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
I don't believe Mora uses the term in his book, but I have an original 1872 copy of Buffalo Land by W.E.Webb which refers to the Mexicans as "greasers". I would have thought that adjective would have originated sometime in the 20th century. Buffalo Land is the true story of an odd mix of adventurers as they explore the buffalo lands west of Topeka. It can be read online at Google books.
I would love to see the confederate picture as well if someone can point me that direction. (we would have thought him a tad fancy for our border unpleasantness.)
It's Captain Samuel J. Richardson, commander of Company F, 2nd Texas Cavalry (2nd Mounted Rifles) but it's most likely Jaguar, Ocelots are too small and the spots are different.
(http://greensleeves.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/06/13/capt_samuel_j_richardson_csa_via_mc.gif)
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Those is fancy. Thanks. I think I will stear clear of those for any persona. ;D
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I am sure he thought himself quite swell, but I can't imagine him wearing that outfit as a Texas Ranger ... that is about the exact opposite of what he wanted if he wanted to command respect.
Of course, he could always shoot his opponent while he was in the paroxysms of laughter ... I believe he would have plenty of time to fire ....
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Given that he commanded a company of Texas Cavalry for the Confederacy - and given where they fought and how hard - I doubt they were an issue for his troopers.
Or for anyone else, for that matter...
'Command Presence' comes from within - 'not' from the clothing worn.
Ascribing today's beliefs and prejudices to the past does those who went before a grave dishonor.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Hey Wad, there were tooled slim jims, I have a pair for some 1872 open tops, but you see a lot of plain ones or ones with boarder tooling.
Thanks Lone Gunman, thats the picture. Very real guy, very real outfit, just way out of the norm so not a good choice if you want to be doing the period. Actually, the chaps wouldn't be all that noteworthy. There were a number of types of fur chaps available, though cat fur would be exotic. I am after a set of seal skin chaps like TR wore. The holsters are a bit much but again fur on holsters were known. You see big cat fur used a lot in 19th century European military regalia. Its just not that common in the US at this time. Any way you look at it he was a snappy dresser!
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St George,
I should learn to hold my tongue ... I probably would have gone alot farther in life if I had ... I am like that character Estelle Getty played in Golden Girls : I tend to say whatever is on the tip of my tongue without that discerning filter most people have ... and I humbly appologize.
Roscoe,
I have given up trying to find something premade on the internet ... the man who is doing my belt is going to make me a matching holster ... and since I really trust his historical instincts, I think that is the best decision.... Plus, since he already has the belt I know it will all work as a kit ...
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I have seen several south of the border saddle bags and flap holsters (mostly pommel holsters) that had plenty of exotic furs, Jaguars, bears, some tiger, just not so much of it at once. I am guessing unless he shot them himself on a trip south, that could not have been cheap.
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Actually jaguar were somewhat plentiful in the early to mid 19th century in south and east Texas so he might have even shot it from the porch. I believe the last confirmed jaguar in Texas was around 1900. Also, the use of jaguar pelts may have been a little more common in that area than we'd think, or maybe Capt Richardson was just a big fan of Sam Houston (even though Houston was against secession and resigned as governor because of it). Click HERE (http://www.shsu.edu/~smm_www/Tour/exhibits/1.shtml) to see Sam Houston's favorite 'leopard' skin vest.
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I didn't know jaguars made it that far north. Interesting. I wish I could remember the book that had all the saddle accoutrements from Mexico that had fur items. I am 99% sure it was a book that had armour of the Winged Hussars, very fancily dressed Polish Knights, they had lots of exotic furs on their saddles, arms, and armor.
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Jaguars are occasionally seen in Arizona to this day. They come out of Mexico along some of the mountain ranges.
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Hi,
For the life of me, I can neither find an internet store nor any source for the calzoneras, or Californio pants.
Does anyone know of a person who sells them?
Or a seamstress who would want to take on the job of transforming normal pants into calzoneras?
Thanks!
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Wad,
Here ya go! Hamilton Dry Goods.
http://www.hamiltondrygoods.com/Vacaro.htm
Not museum quality, but PC.
Not expensive either! ::) :D ;D
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Dr Bob
Thanks!
I never thought to search under Vaquero pants!
The tan ones match the jacket that is on order, and the blue strped ones would match the blue jacket I was thinking of ordering..
So I have listed the page as a favorite, and will be ordering next payday ....
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There were these 'calzoneras' online that I might be purchasing.
The trouble is that every pair of calzoneras that I have seen in print and painting had buttons that, at least in theory, could be unbuttoned all the way up to the waist of the pants.
These 'calzoneras' or Vaquero pants only have buttons to the mid-thigh.
Is this a later period of these calzoneras, or would they be appropriate for the late 1840s or 1850s?
Thanks!
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Funny how life changes ....
One of my favorite "Westerns" is 'The Wonderful Country" with Robert Mitchum.
He plays a man torn between his life north and south of the Mexican/US border.
Now that I know so much more of Californio clothing, I watched with new eyes to see how accurate the clothing was ...
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Wadd,the wonderful country is one of my favorite movies.I have been trying to find it for sale on DVD for awhile.I really like the sombrero's in the movie.Last night I watched a movie called jubille trail it had lots of Californio clothing.Wadd is sutter's fort going to remain open with the cuts the state is making.I live about 20 min from the fort.Thank you all for the great info,murf :D
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Well met, Murf!
I just looked at Amazon.com to see if they had a DVD of it ... but all they had was non US format. No videos either ...
I will try to run one down ... if I do, I will announce it on the Movies Thread .... I have a friend who can make DVDs out of VHS ... so we will see.
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Just wanted to 'bump' this post and hope that some of my questions get answered ....
Especially about calzoneras ... are ones that buttoned from mid thigh down a later development than the 1840s or just a variant that was always there?
Help Guys!
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books.google.com/books?id=zxUVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=calzoneras&source=bl&ots=b-U1PypDKM&sig=2ROffV5p2Reuow6wtraSRDi_ECk&hl=en&ei=_Pq3SuX0E9Hw8Qaf3N25Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=calzoneras&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=zxUVAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=calzoneras&source=bl&ots=b-U1PypDKM&sig=2ROffV5p2Reuow6wtraSRDi_ECk&hl=en&ei=_Pq3SuX0E9Hw8Qaf3N25Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=calzoneras&f=false)
Relevant to the above, you may find this interesting, I did.
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James,
Thanks! The pair that I have that seem pretty authentic to me [?] are made of wool with a leather riding seat. The legs are split at the middle of the thigh. There are buttons on the upper part, spaced like the working buttons on the lower 2/3's. I wear drawers that show and then Stacy Adams shoes. ;D ;D ;D
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Dr Bob,
I was just on the web book that James Hunt so kindly offered .... in it, the author describes the fashions of LA and distinctly mentions that an option of some of the calaveras was to be split and have buttons to mid thigh.
So it is PC and I will be ordering my first pair on Friday ... BTW, they are marked down to $39.00 now .....
So now I have all my clothing, a quirt, a Belduque, I have on order a belt and holster and am waiting for delivery of an 1851 Colt (so my character would have to be in the 1852-1855 era ... it looks like the only things I have to start saving for is a pair of Botas de Alas so that I can tuck the Belduque into one of them ....
And, in a perfect world, find a person/company who sells spanish style big (1 1/8" radius) pointy cruel spurs ... and don't worry, they will never be on my boots when I ride a horse ....
So if anyone knows a person/company that sells aftermarket chihuahua style Mexican rowels, please let me know ....
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So if anyone knows a person/company that sells aftermarket chihuahua style Mexican rowels, please let me know ....
Like these?
(http://thumb6.webshots.net/s/thumb4/2/86/24/82728624SdeljY_th.jpg) (http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/photo/1082728624029466406SdeljY)
(Hmm...guess yer lookin for Iron Rowels...Bronze won't do?)
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Grogan,
Actually, bronze is what I would prefer.... *S*
I went to the Lindholm Brother's website to ask if they sold just rowels .....
And I was immediately Daemoned when I tried to use the email on their website.
So I will have to attempt to call them tomorrow ....
But thanks! I had done internet searches and could not find anything for 'rowels' that might work....
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I called and got one of the Lindholm Brothers ...
He said to take the 'www.' off the address.
Sure enough, it worked fine.
But he said that yes, they will sell just rowels ... and the price was great ... far cheaper than buying new spurs ....
So I will be sending them a check on Friday ....
By the way, their website is:
www.lindholmspurs.com
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Wadd try ebay I have a pair of old style californio spurs I got on ebay.Spurs and tooled straps for about $100.
good luck,murf
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Wadd
When I chimed in early on suggesting a 51 Navy (or a 49 pocket Dragoon ) I did not do so lighty.
The simple answer is found in this book
Colt: The Making of an American Legend
by William Hosley
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Major 2,
I did not take your post lightly, and respect your studies.
In fact, with all the many fine books that have been suggested to me, I have started a WORD document listing all the titles and authors so that I can start reading them .....
And from all the work that I have been able to lightly scratch up, i.e. Wickipedia on 1851 Colts, it appears that they were first in production in 1850, and were a factor (in 1851-52) if not the primary weapon that they became during the later Gold Rush....
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Wikipedia is a 'do-it-yourself' affair.
Always double-check any information gleaned from that site.
Incidentally - the California Gold Rush is generally considered to have ended in 1858, when the New Mexican Gold Rush began.
The 49ers who stayed found the land unbelievably productive, and ultimately California's great wealth came not from its mines but from its farms.
Remember too - the large, 6"-rowelled 'Espuelas Grandes' were designed for use by a mounted man, and not for town use.
The slightly smaller versions are often referred to as 'Chihuahua' spurs, because of their purchase at the big Trade Fairs in that border region.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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St, George,
First, I would like to thank you for your kind help and guidance .... without it I would be much less knowlegeable than I am today.
Yours and the other voices in hear have pointed where to look.
As I have said before, I am fortunate to live in a capital city ... I have already been to the California Room for a talk on Dashielle Hammett (way out of our historical era), so I know where I need to go next ... I see me having my nose in books for the next three months ... which in itself is good; it gives me a direction.
Like any massive movement (the Oklahoma Land Rush comes immediately to mind) it always seems it was not the participants, but the people who supplied (sutlers) and moved the particiapants (railroads) that became the Leland Stanfords and Charles Crockers ... in fact, if I remember right all of the Big Four who pushed the railroad through gained their wealth through supplying the '49ers; Huntington and Hopkins were partners in a hardware company; Stanford operated a grocery business with his brothers; and Crocker was a dry goods merchant. Kind of the supply chain coming full circle ....
Regarding spurs, I talked to one of the the Lindholm Brothers who is going to supply me with 'Chihuahua' style rowels to go in my normal spurs at a quarter of the cost of new spurs ....
So now I am just looking for a pair of inexpensive Botas de Alas ,,, an oxymoron if I ever saw one .... LOL
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While Chuck Burrows of Wild Rose Trading Co. makes the best looking Botas to be found (in my opinion), they can be made fairly inexpensively. Chuck kindly posted historically accurate patterns on the leather forum, just look in the back pages. A trip to tandy's can get you semi-accurate leather or Crazy Crow can get you simulated smoked brain tan, that is really close looking to the real thing. (I have both real brain tan and the simulated, hard to tell them apart).
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Mogorilla,
I have always felt that it is far cheaper to buy the very best that can be had ... I have done otherwise in times past, and by the time that I paid for the postage to send the product back for repair and paid for said repair, I could have bought the original ... as it was, all I had was the 'fixed' cheap product and the manufacturers 'word' that it would never happen again....
Reminds me of a quote from the astronaut Alan Shephard ... "It's a very sobering feeling to be up in space and realize that one's safety factor was determined by the lowest bidder on a government contract." ...
Kind of the same idea ....
Get the best. If you can't afford it, wait and save until you can.
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Major 2,
I did not take your post lightly, and respect your studies.
In fact, with all the many fine books that have been suggested to me, I have started a WORD document listing all the titles and authors so that I can start reading them .....
And from all the work that I have been able to lightly scratch up, i.e. Wickipedia on 1851 Colts, it appears that they were first in production in 1850, and were a factor (in 1851-52) if not the primary weapon that they became during the later Gold Rush....
;D What I meant was...In the book there are references to California Shippments..
However here you will find an orginial document...
http://www.prices4antiques.com/autographs/documents-signed/DS-Colt-Elisha-for-Samuel-Colt-Gold-Rush-Firearms-Shipment-1851-B181582.htm
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Another person sent me the same post on the 'When did the 1851 Colt begin to reach California' thread ... so now I can look recieved weapons using the San Francisco Agent's name ...
Thanks!
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Can't imagion who that other person was ;D
your welcome
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Okay,
The 1851 Navy Colt has arrived ... just waiting for something to put it in ...
The jacket, pants, shirt, holster and gunbelt are all on order; supposed to arrive about Friday 2 October.
The sash, and hat will be bought when the jacket arrives.
The Calzoneras is on Chuck Burrows 'dance list' just waiting for the influx of 'fun tickets" to seal the deal...
And when I get all but the Botas, I hope to go back to Fat City (where the pic in my profile was taken; the bar and barback are over 150 years old), and get another pic... which will end up on my profile at that time ...
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Just got word that the Vaqueor jacket has arrived and is at Sacramento Dry Goods
I found some matching calaveras pants at Hamilton Dry Goods, but when they arrived they were much too long. So Sacramento dygoods is removing the placquet with the button holes , shortening the pants, and then splitting the seam higher and sewing the placquet back on ... I will lose a button, but Hamilton Dry Goods is snding me extra buttons (For free; great people!) so it will work out.
Got the 1851 Colt, the holster, Belduque and sheath. Chuck Burrows had an old belt that was never paid for, and he is shortening it to fit my waist (at a 44" waist I never thought I would be able to say something was being shortned for me ...LOL).
I bought a 'Gamblers Shirt' from Hamilton Dry Goods that has the full collar (as opposed to banded collar) that a Californio would wear ... and it has ruffled cuffs that will 'shoot'out of the Vaquero jacket much in the original fashon. It is pumpin colored and matches the pants and jacket ... ought to give it a bit of a 'dandy' looke ....
So now all I have to get to be in personna is a red sash and a really wide brimmed straw hat ... both available at Sacramento Dry Goods...
And to repeat I will send a pic whehn I finally have everything all together...
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As of this date:
I have the Vaquero Jacket, the calaveras (pants) with blood red sash, pumpkin colored Gambler's Shirt
I now have the 1851 Colt and Slim Jim holster, got a square trigger for it, have found a jewerlry shop who will silver plate the trigger guard and backstrap ...
Waiting on a pistol belt from Chuck Burrows as well as a pair of Botas De Alas ...
Sacramento Dry good turned me onto a Mexican Dance Supply company in San Antonio that had a red bowtie to match the sash.
Their website is:
http://www.larosadancesupply.com/Home_Mariachi.html
Again, once I get the whole outfit together I will add a pic ....
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After waiting all this time I want more than just a picture. You got any friends with a cell phone who can shoot videos of you doing one of them Mexican Dances (as in the movie "Zorro" starring Catherine Zeta Jones, Anthony Hopkins, Catherine Zeta Jones, Antonio Bandaras and Catherine Zeta Jones)? I'm guessing they might have 'How-To' videos at that Mexican Dance Supply Company in San Antonio.
You could get promoted from "WaddWatsonEllis" to "WaddWatsonEllis - The Dancing Docent"
<grin>
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KFlach,
After all this time I want more than pictures, too!
But you have obviously never seen me walk, 'cause after a cross country ski injury left me with bone-on-bone on my right knee, penguins have a more graceful gait ... but I am really good at doing an impression of Dennis waver as Chester in Gunsmoke .... "Mr. Dillon, Mr Dillon; wait up Mr Dillon!"
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Help ...
I have come down to the point in becoming a docent that I have to find a person who actually existed .....
Due the time I have chosen, I think it would be very possigle to find a Californio who might have already lost his land, and has turned to the only thing he knows, i.e. ranching.
I am guessing tht there should be several people who, after they lost their own haciendas, went to work as a foreman for another Califonio ... or maybe even a Yanqui
If I could find such a fellow, he would be in a place where he has seen the best and worst of the change from the old California to the Gold Rush Era ....
Has anyone run accross such a person in their own research?
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Here is a list of California history books available for free or close to it from Amazon.com as Kindle editions. A version of the Kindle software is available for the PC - http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=kcp_pc_mkt_lnd?docId=1000426311
California Four Months among the Gold-Finders, being the Diary of an Expedition from San Francisco to the Gold Districts
http://www.amazon.com/California-Gold-Finders-Expedition-Francisco-ebook/dp/B001OI3G4Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766059&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.com/California-Gold-Finders-Expedition-Francisco-ebook/dp/B001OI3G4Y/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766059&sr=1-2) 99 cents
California, 1849-1913; or, the rambling sketches and experiences of sixty-four years' residence in that state (Kindle Edition)
http://www.amazon.com/California-1849-1913-experiences-sixty-four-ebook/dp/B002RKT5FC/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766059&sr=1-9 (http://www.amazon.com/California-1849-1913-experiences-sixty-four-ebook/dp/B002RKT5FC/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766059&sr=1-9) Free currently
California and the Californians
http://www.amazon.com/California-and-the-Californians-ebook/dp/B000JQUKSW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766370&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/California-and-the-Californians-ebook/dp/B000JQUKSW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766370&sr=1-1) Free currently
The March of Portola and the Discovery of the Bay of San Francisco
http://www.amazon.com/March-Portola-Discovery-Francisco-ebook/dp/B000JQULP4/ref=kinw_tu_recs_3?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2 (http://www.amazon.com/March-Portola-Discovery-Francisco-ebook/dp/B000JQULP4/ref=kinw_tu_recs_3?ie=UTF8&m=AG56TWVU5XWC2) Free currently
The Mountains of California by John Muir
http://www.amazon.com/The-Mountains-of-California-ebook/dp/B000JMKVZS/ref=sr_1_110?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766604&sr=1-110 (http://www.amazon.com/The-Mountains-of-California-ebook/dp/B000JMKVZS/ref=sr_1_110?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766604&sr=1-110) Free currently
Frontier service during the rebellionor, A history of Company K, First Infantry, California Volunteers (Kindle Edition)
http://www.amazon.com/Frontier-rebellionor-California-Volunteers-ebook/dp/B002RKRXU6/ref=sr_1_65?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766549&sr=1-65 (http://www.amazon.com/Frontier-rebellionor-California-Volunteers-ebook/dp/B002RKRXU6/ref=sr_1_65?ie=UTF8&s=digital-text&qid=1258766549&sr=1-65) Free currently
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FriscoCounty,
When it comes to a computer, I am a definite neo-Luddite ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite
Although I am aware of the Kindle revolution, I would be much more readily use that noun to describe small bits of wood used to start a campfire ...
But I will write up your list (by hand) and see if the library can order them for me ...
Thanks!
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This is the area I grew up around.
It seems there was an interesting mixture of Spanish Land Grant lands interspersed with Yanquis even back before the days of the Gold Rush.
Maybe you'll find something or someone here that you could latch onto?
http://www.portolavalley.net/Modules/ShowDocument.aspx?documentid=1986
Also research "Ormondale Ranch"
Happy researching!
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I am more of a "technophobe", and I suspect that is more like you feel about computers;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technophobia
At one time my supervisors took a computer away from me because
1. I wasn't using it, or couldn't
2. One of our support staff actually required one to work for us.
Since then I have found computers ever more useful and much easier to use. I probably spend waay too much time on them!
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Sir Charles,
The last job that I had was working as a registration clerk for a very busy Emergency Room. I noticed that while I was concentrating on control/F8/enter, the teenage clerk (who grew up with computers) was typing twice as fast as I was and not even looking at her keyboard, keeping a running conversation with the next clerk that went something like, "Well, I saw Johnnie at the bar, and I told him yadayadayada ... and do you know what he said? He said yadayadayada.
And where I was admittting 60 in an 8 hour shift, they were admitting 90-100 and taking up my slack ... my manager finally said, "You know, you're just not gonna ever learn this ... '
So I am thinking something like a Walmart Greeter or one of those seniors who demonstrate foods at Costco....
Grogan, the area I am thinking of would be within a days ride on horseback from Sacramento. So that my character can be just riding in to check on an order at Huntington and Hopkins .... which would give me a plausible reason to be in Old Sacramento even if I was a foreman/Jefe ...
But I will research the two sources you gave ....
http://www.parks.ca.gov/pages/684/files/hardware.pdf
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I'm with the Luddites. My favorite book, Mark Twain's Roughing It --the Bancroft Library edition, is a good source for what most Yanquis wore and carried. Californios were vaqueros, and had their own style of dress and tack. Their sombreros were not quite as broad as worn my Mexicans, but the rest of their dress was similar. If you're looking to recreate a Californios of Spaniard or Mexican background you could try Wikipedia or Google it. If an Anglo, I'd look through Roughing It. It's a great read, too.
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Mad River Frank,
I carelessly said I would be a living docent as a Californio, thinking I could just buy a Vaquero Jacket and use my Ruger Old Armys ... was I wrong!
Now, $1400 later for a volunteer position, I now have an 1851 Colt, California Slim Jim holster on a period Chuck Burrows black powder belt, a beltline 5 1/2" bladed Belduque, a pair of Calveras and matching Vaquero Jacket. I have a 10" blade damascene Belduque being made for me to tuck into the Botas de Alas that Chuck Burrows is making for me. For now I will be wearing an old pair of cowboy boots, but if this position works out, I may be looking for the over-the-ankle-boots that Californios wore. But for now, all that I am waiting for is the red brocade tie to match the red waist sash that I already own ... the Botas and Belduque will be this spring, and when the Californio boots will be made is anybodies guess ....
But what I am looking for is a particular person that actually lived in the Sacramento area ... someone who might have had a rancho at one time but lost it, and has become a foreman/jefe to another ranchero. That way I could introduce myself as a particular person from the area, and explain that I had ridden in from the rancho to check on an important shipment that was expected, staying in character as I gave my tour.
I have had a state park person do this for a tour of the Ehrlman Estate in western Lake Tahoe, giving the whole tour of the house and estate as the actual butler from the 1920's (dressed as the majordomo would have). He treated us as Great Gatsby-era arriving guests, and it made the tour make far more sense than if it had been just a guy in a park ranger uniform.
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Sir Charles,
I often think of the headmaster of my military high school. I went through the circuitous route of getting face time with him ....
Explained that I had a 3.5+ grade average, and asked if I could take a typing class during one of my evening study halls.
He did a Nikita Kruschev and did everything but pound the table with his shoe .... told me in no uncertain words that I was being trained to be a leader, 'and would always have someone to do my typing for me (his words, not mine)...
Contrast this with the average kid that I am competing with for a job ... who was playing games on a computer at least by the second grade ... where I didn't learn to type until my late 40s ... As the words to one of Jimmy Buffet's classics so aptly puts:
Yes I am a pirate,
200 years too late,
Cannons don't thunder,
There's nothin' to plunder,
I'm just an over 40 victim of fate
I mean, at least the dinosaurs got to die before they became relics ... LOL
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Wadd; My grade 11 Science class got the same lecture, only that we would ALL become rich engineers!
I have become fairly handy with the HP method of typing. HUNT & PECK
My work mates would pause by my office door and shake their heads in amazement.
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I prefer the Columbus Method of typing: (Note historical reference)
I find a key, and land on it!
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Russ:
I understand entirely ...
But back to the main subject ... I know there are several historians here that have Californio background .... does any name ring a bell (Californio jefe/foreman circa 1852-3)?
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To Wadd Watson Ellis,
Well it sounds like you put it all together quite nicely. I've often wondered how one markets oneself as a docent or period correct actor at one of California's historical sites, e.g. Columbia or Sutter's Fort. I've certainly got the rig and the clothing. All I need now is the health.
Mad River Frank
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Mad River Frank,
I think that with the downturn of the economy, EVERYONE values volunteers .... all I have talked to are looking ... for instance, I am sure that Sutter's Fort has had to lay off paid staff and must fill the ranks to keep things going with volunteers or close .... and even with health problems, they would value anyone who could work a couple of days a week ....
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Might want to look for someone that started off in the Bear Flag Republic days for your persona.
I did the 150th anniversary of the flag raising in Sonoma back in 1996 wearing a pair of Colt Patersons in slim jim holsters, a silver mounted knife and a small rifleman's pouch that had an attached flask. One of the best events I ever attended - and I came all the way from Virginia to be a part of it.
Have walked through old Sacramento many times and spent many hours in Sutter's Fort.
If somebody made replicas of "phoenix buttons" - I'd have these placed on your jacket as they would definitely be appropriate for an old time californian.
Doug Wicklund
The Californian #14701 in SASS
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Sharps,
I am not having much success breaking through the barrier between 'real' historians and their public. If I was given a name to work with, I think I know how to research and put 'flesh' on the history of a man ... but the few times I have attempted to contact someone who is extremely familiar with the period (especially pertaining to Sacramento in the early 1850s, I feel like the voice crying in the wilderness.
I have litterally had more help through this thread than I have getting face to face with someone.
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WaddWatsonEllis,
After you get all this together are you going to pull the documentation together to become a member of the "Originals Class?"
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Kflach,
No se ... what is this 'Originals Class'? Does that let me shoot double crossdraw in Gunfighter?
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Nope! It's an NCOWS class that shoots 1 revolver and one rifle. Creates a persona [Life history] and documents all of his outfit to a year and his equipment to the year. I am an Original.
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Well, my 1980s Pietta 1851 is definitely going to be a holster queen ... If I do any black powder, I have a pair of Ruger Old Armys whose metallurgys I trust ....
But other than that, I would have a single black powder pistol, but do not have an 1852-3 rifle or shotgun. I don't think that I would be able to find a non-muzzleloading, non-single shot rifle or shotgun from the 1852-53 era. My '73 Winchester and my '87 Winchester shotgun would definitely fit the bill ... they were just dreams in the inventor's id at the time I am working on ....
But it is a fun idea .... However, I don't think I belong to that club ....*S*
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Wadd; Isn't your docent character close to an "original"? I thought your date was 1860? Just bump it a couple of years and a Henry or Spencer would do.
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Sir Charles,
Actually, I have slid 'back' to 1852-3 ... it seems that the Californios were not ready for the influx of 'Americanism' most spoke only Spanish, and were pretty much gone from the landscape by 1855. Between lawyers with relaxed ethics, a Land Commission that demanded written documents (IN ENGLISH) showing proof of ownership, the Californios lost most of their land, power, and say in government very quickly. Only a few of the very powerful men, Mariano Vallejo and Pio Pico come to mind, were left with anything at all ....
So again I am back to cap and ball days ... and I don't even think Colt had a revolving rifle yet in 1852-3... and I am just too lazy to muzzleload .... especially on a timed event.
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The NCOWS time period is 1865 to 1899.
Colt made their first revolving rifle 1837-1838 according to Flayderman's Guide!
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Dr Bob,
This sounds interesting ... does anyone make a Cap and Ball Colt revolving rifle reproduction ... and in a perfect world, .44 cal. ?
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Dixie still carries the Root Revolving Rifle, I think Palmetto made it, but they may be out of business.
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As a way of bumping this page back to the mainstream, I thought I might give an update.
I now own matching Calaveras and a Vaquero Jacket, a kinda pumpkin colored 'river gambler' linen ruffled shirt in keeping with the Californio tradition, red silk charro style tie (again, applicable to 1851-52) and a dark red waist sash. Chuck Burrows has cut down an old blackpowder pistol belt, and is making me a pair of Botas de Alas (Californio/Mexican leather leggings they used like chaps). Josh Dabney is making me a 8 1/2" bladed Damascene Belduque that will tuck in the Botas Californio style. I have found an old use Pietta 1851 in .44 cal. (I know, the original 1851s were .36, but I just feel that shooting a .36 calliber is like firing a Beretta .380 at some one ... more apt to make them more angry than stop them). I was able to get an Oklahoma Leather 'Slim Jim' holster until I can afford to have a floral 'Winchester & Main' floral style Slim Jim and matching cartridge belt bag made for me .... I mean, I already have $1400 in a outfit for a non-paying docent position ... gotta stop, catch my breath and get every one paid before I order any more ....
As far as personas, I am still drawing up a blank ... thought I had the perfect one, but he was bushwacked (dead) a year before my period ... thought I might become Jared Sheldon', a yanqui who married into an old Mexican Family, converted to Catholicism and became a Mexican citizen in the 1830s ... I was thinking, 'Oh yeah, anglo Californio with a land grant (Now part of Elk Grove CA: for you locals, Sheldon Road is named after him) ... married into a old Californio Family ... perfect ... but then I found that he had put a dam on a local creek in accordance with an agreement with local miners.
Well the miners thought better about it ... and even tho' most did not even have legal permission to use the land, they killed Jared and several of his friends at the dam in 1851 ...
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Maybe Jared had a brother; - Like Curley?
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Sir Charles,
Thanks; I'll check to see if he had any brothers ... I know that at least two of his closest friends were bushwacked at the same time by the same group of miners ...
I do think that there were some more anglos in the family who stuck around the area ... I'll have to access the Elk Grove
Historical Society ....
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WaddWatsonEllis,
I just want to let you know how much I've enjoyed keeping with your progress. I'm going about this quite the opposite. It's interesting (and sometimes quite enlightening) to see what you've done and compare it with my own journey.
I'm still looking forward to that final picture you post, when you've got everything together and are wearing it!
Hang in there!
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Kflach,
I go in for a formal 'interview' on February 2nd ... but since I have met the woman and attended meetings, I think it is more of a formality ...
And I have two four hour classes starting the second week in February .... so I will get to meet more new docents then.
It turns out I have to put $30.00 into some kind of insurance if I am to wear a firearm ... and the lady has the forms, so I will pick one up on the day of the interview ...
I still have a few things to do or pick up
I need to get some Mexican/non ASPCA approved spurs (i.e. the ones with the big cruel rowels)
I have a little (3 oz) powder flask that came with a tiny powder measure and machine style threads. I need to get a 45 gr measure and get the flask redrilled (fortunately larger) and rethreadded to fit the larger powder measure.
I will eventually get a cartridge bag that will hold the mini-flask, six extra balls in a leather bag, and a half dozen wads in another bag. I have a picture of the bag and the replacement holster below.
Still waiting for the February start date to begin work on the Belduque and Botas.
But the waiting is kinda making it more fun ... kinda *S*.
Well, I am helping the friend of a friend who is chairborne right now, and have to jump into the shower so that I can be there on time.
Best wishes to you all!
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Dr Bob,
This sounds interesting ... does anyone make a Cap and Ball Colt revolving rifle reproduction ... and in a perfect world, .44 cal. ?
Prolly equally as unreliable and DANGEROUS today as they were when they were originally made!
During the Civil War, when Berdan was forming up his U.S. Sharpshooters Regt. (USSS), he promised his men they'd be supplied with "Special" Sharps Breechloading (Paper Ctg.) Rifles (that were equipped with different Bayonets and Double Set Triggers).
When Sharps couldn't supply the rifles in time, Berdan sought to equip his men with Colt's Revolving Rifles instead, which he did.
While in camp and still training, Berdan's unit of experienced target shooters almost mutinied on him unless he supplied them with the promised Sharps rifles.
Berdan's men KNEW a good and workable rifle when they saw it.
Colt's Revolving Rifles weren't it! >:(
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Grogan,
First, I agree wholeheartedly about the Berdan/Colt Rifle.
I have lived until my 60th birthday with all ten fingers, and intend to be buried with them in the same casket .. and connected to my hand!
That being said, the discussion was concerning 1851 in California .... and although the first Sharps were made in 1850 using paper cartridges, I doubt that there were any in California ... even with the few US Army troops there .... and much less with a Californio.
The Californios, from what I have read, disdained firearms, and were much more likely to have a sabre on their saddle rig then a scabbard and rifle. I am taking a liberty in a way to be wearing an 1851 Colt .... but I will have two Belduques on me ... a small 5 1/2" blade one at my waist for common work, and a 8 1/2" ish one tucked into my right Botas (legging). Historically knives were the weapons of choice, and a pistol would probably only be used against a gringo if the gringo was "heeled"...
My character that I am looking for would have ridden in from a ranchero, and left his horse and rig at the local livery... so any horse carried weapons will not be considerered ... just anything he might be carrying about town ...
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Grogan,
First, I agree wholeheartedly about the Berdan/Colt Rifle.
I have lived until my 60th birthday with all ten fingers, and intend to be buried with them in the same casket .. and connected to my hand!
That being said, the discussion was concerning 1851 in California .... and although the first Sharps were made in 1850 using paper cartridges, I doubt that there were any in California ... even with the few US Army troops there .... and much less with a Californio.
The Californios, from what I have read, disdained firearms, and were much more likely to have a sabre on their saddle rig then a scabbard and rifle. I am taking a liberty in a way to be wearing an 1851 Colt .... but I will have two Belduques on me ... a small 5 1/2" blade one at my waist for common work, and a 8 1/2" ish one tucked into my right Botas (legging). Historically knives were the weapons of choice, and a pistol would probably only be used against a gringo if the gringo was "heeled"...
My character that I am looking for would have ridden in from a ranchero, and left his horse and rig at the local livery... so any horse carried weapons will not be considerered ... just anything he might be carrying about town ...
Ellis,
I think there's NO Question that back then Knives were more reliable than Percussion firearms.
Cap 'n Ball Revolver's only advantage was range (and maybe if one chamber didn't fire you could always recock and try again?)
Of course if you read the Ordnance Dept.'s reports from back then (mid-1840s) you do come to appreciate what a revolutionary weapon Colt's (Walker) Revolvers were.
Gee, prior to the advent of these, mounted troops (Dragoons) were only equipped with Single Shot Smoothbore Muskets and their Saber. Possibly they might have also carried a big Smoothbore Single Shot Pistol.
But their pistol's accuracy was very poor at anything but fairly close range, and again it was only ONE shot!
Imagine suddenly being issued a PAIR of Colt's Walker Revolvers?!!
Now you have your Saber, plus 12 shots, as powerful and (probably) more accurate than your Musket!
Oh, and the original tests include submerging the loaded revolver in a bucket of water for 1 hour and taking it out and it still fires all 6 shots!
(Obviously their revolvers, cylinders, caps & cones WEREN'T made in Italy?!! :o)
Of course I don't know what the Californios were doing around Sutter's Fort back then, but I'm guessing that once the Anglos started showing up there were PLENTY of Colt's (mainly 1849 Pocket Pistols) around.
My 2 Cents
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Grogan,
Again, I agree with all the information you have written of ... especially of the Yanquis. But the Californios attempted to trace their lineage back to Spain, and in their taste of personal weaponry it looks like they did the same ... they did not bother to learn English, and probably only carried firearms in self defense because they might have to deal with Yanqui.
But for problems among themselves, both the Belduque and sword lasted long into the 19th century. For instance, when the Mexicans routed our troops at the battle of Los Angeles, it was the Californio Lancers (horse drawn calvalry armed with Lances as primary weapons) that prevailed until US reinforcements were brought from New Mexico.
But the two cultures were mixing. Yanqui men married into Old Californio families and the cultures began to collide and collude. The persona I wish to portray is a person born or married into Mexican Citizenship and present for the three decades of often violent change from agrarian near feudal bucolic life to the hustle and bustle of new cities and new ideas ... someone able to see the worst and best of either the Californio or Yanqui outlooks ...
As such, in 1852 he would be in his fities or sixties, as am I.
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The same photograph is on page 66 of PACKING IRON. The caption states "Well armed for an overland trek, this gent from the late 1840's..." The image is courtesy of the Western Reserve Historical Society, Cleveland, Ohio.
Is that a Hall carbine?
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Grogan,
The persona I wish to portray is a person born or married into Mexican Citizenship
As such, in 1852 he would be in his fities or sixties, as am I.
Ellis,
Down there and in these days, that should be EASY! ;D
I'd run an ad in Craigslist :D
(Just funnin ya Pard ;))
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The God Rush accelerated things in Northern California so much that very little records of Californio life are extant after 1849 ... I thought I had my man in Jared Sheldon.
He was one of the first Yanquis to get to Northern California ... and became Catholic and a Mexican Citizen. A Yanqui who converted to Catholicism and became a Mexican Citizen:
Jared Dixon Sheldon, one of our earliest pioneers and originally from Vermont, came to California in 1832 and at some point afterward became a Mexican citizen. In 1842, Thomas Larkin, who was then the American Consul to Mexico, was awarded the contract for expansion and improvement of the Customs House in Monterey, which had been built in 1827. Jared Sheldon worked on this project for Thomas Larkin. Based on the size of the land grant he received as payment for services to the Mexican government on this project it could be assumed he was a foreman. He was granted Omochumnes Rancho, nearly 14,000 acres near present day Sloughhouse and Rancho Murieta, in 1843 for his work. It was there that he and friend William Daylor built a grist mill in 1845 to mill wheat for Capt. John Sutter on the Cosumnes River. To supply water to his crops south of the river he built a dam 16-ft high, double-walled of heavy oak, and filled with large stones. On July 12, 1851 he was shot and killed by 40 to 100 angry miners in the river below his dam. Also killed in the shootout were 2 of Sheldon’s 12 friends, James M. Johnson of Iowa and Edward Cody of Illinois. Three men were wounded, including a miner. The prevailing miners destroyed the sluice gate in the dam. They had unrecorded gold mining claims in the river-bottom on Sheldon’s land, which would be flooded by the rising water upstream from the dam. Subsequent floods continued the dam’s destruction, and hydraulic mining in Michigan Bar buried the remnants in silt. Public right of access to California streams was not clarified until 1879. This display shows how the mill worked and pictures of the remains of the mill. Various parts of the mill are now on display at the Heritage Park in effort to help preserve this part of our rich heritage. Plans are underway, as funding allows, to create a working model of Sheldon's Grist Mill.
Only problem is that the dam became his demise exactly one year before I would be needing an identity.
So I am still searching ... I have gone through the Sacramento Room in the State Library; the only thing listed as being more inclusive is the Bancroft Library on the UC Berkeley campus in Berkely CA. So as soon as I find a cheap place to stay down there (Meaning free if possible *S*), I guess it is my next step in researching a persona.
Any suggestions? I would love any PM that would give me a name or direction to pursue.
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Is that a Hall carbine?
Yes, it is. And a Dragoon in the belt hoslter.
Books
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WWE,
A weapon you might consider is the "espada de ancha." It was a short saber very popular among horsemen in Mexico proper and I would imagine in California as well. About half the length of a regular saber, it answered for the purposes of a peon's machete, but with a more elegant appearance befitting a gentleman. There is a very fine example in the Museum of Texas History in Austin. From just a few feet away it looks much like a D-handled machete, but with a narrower and more tapering point, but up close you can see that the blade sports some very fine gold inlay. Clearly it was once a fine sword and was probably cut down for easier handling on the frontier. It has about a 24" blade. Thus you would have a sword that could still be used to clear brush and cut forage for your horse, and was a more practical sword for dismounted combat than a full-size saber and could be worn afoot on the belt or on a baldric like an oversized Bowie. It might be termed a horseman's cutlass.
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What you say is quite true for most hispanic horseman of the New World. From Gauchos to Californios, there was a real tendency to make a short sword/long knife,especially from the hilt end of a broken saber ...
I even have a pic of a Californio with such a 'sword'
But I will only have on me what a dismounted Californio would be carrying around Sacramento town ... a quirt, an 1851 Colt (with holster and rig) a larger Belduque tucked into a Botas and a smaller Belduque on my belt ....
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Well, I can still sing the praises of the revolving rifle, actually a carbine. colt made revolving rifles/carbines/shotguns on the patterson model and then later on the Root model. I have not seen the root replicas as made by Palmetto, but I have held both true Colt Root Rifle and Carbine. My assesment was in no way would I shoot the rifle. It was heavy and the only way to get a good bead on it was to hold the forestock. Which even if you cylinders functioned perfectly is still going to burn your hand. The carbine was a carbine from the Texas rangers in the 1850s before the unpleasantness. It was a natural pointer and your forehand could grip under the trigger with no problem. If you ever win the lottery, look to a root carbine.
On a side and not to highjack the thread, i shoot a 1860 colt army and have an attachable shoulder stock for it. As accurate as my Henry rifle at 50 yards. (me shooting of course)
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A lot would depend on the economic level of the character that you are portraying. The wealthier,the better armed.
If you are going to carry the Ruger Old army,you could use a military style holster(Which were widely used by civilians)
with the butt covered by the flap. Although the Ruger resembles the 1858 Remington,the '58 did not have adjustable sights nor a big knob at the end of the loading lever. Also Not that many '58's had been produced or sold by 1860, so finding one on the West coast would have been rare. A Dragoon,1851 Navy,1849 pocket or Patterson would have been far more likely. Another good choice would be a single shot. On knives,the Bowie style blade was not as wide spread as the movies would have you believe. straight, single edge blades were more common.
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Mogorilla,
As I have talked about before on this thread, there are two things against considering a rifle.
1.) I bought the Pietta 1851 Colt to carry in a holster as a docent. I may fire it just to say I have, but cannot see me having a reason for a stock.
2.) My cahracter would live outside the city on a ranchero and would just be coming in for supplies .
As such, he would have left anything difficult to carry (i.e., shotgun, rifle, pistol stock etc. with his horse at a livery stable.
3. If I was going to think about a stock, it would have to be for my two Ruger Old Armys, which I DO shoot .... *S*
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Just a question for info - not a 'challenge'...
Did people leave things as essential as a rifle at places like livery stables?
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Kflach,
Here are my thoughts on leaving a long gun behind ....
1.) If I were putting into a new town and had no relationships with anyone there, or if I was tying my horse up on the street, well yes I would definitely go through the hassle of carrying the weapon with me.
2.) But if I made the same trip to the same destination town on a weekly basis, I would find a trustworthy liveryman, the sherriff's office, Wells Fargo Office or a hotel front office person to leave the gun with.
Remember also that this is 1852; a lever action will not come out until the 1860 Henry. The penultimate long gun would be a .45-.50 caliber plains rifle (single shot) or a cap and ball 12 gauge SXS shotgun. The two shots from the shotgun might be good in a barroom gunfight, but neither were 'town guns'. And if I was picking up shovels, pickaxes and farming tools, I would not want another tool to be carrying ....
Beside, the 'Hispanic' thought was that gun action was mildly wimpy, even cowardly. That 'real men' settled things at very close distance with knives or short swords ... that any coward could stand accross the room and kill an opponent with a gun ... look at Wild Bill Hickock's demise for one instance.
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That (item #2) makes perfect sense.
Thanks!
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Kflach,
I wanted to address the earlier thread about being seen as confrontational.
As an Anglo playing the part of a Californio, I would much rather answer questions here than on my first day when a person starts asking really pointed, confrontational questions.
Instead of the 'Gee. I dunno; can I look it up and get back to you?" sort of responses, y'alls penetrating questions allow me to do a bit of research (if necessary), and chew on it overnight.
I am hoping that I will already have come accross 90% of my group's questions on this forum and have been able to come up with a good, honest response.
So bring on the tough questions! I would rather see them here than on my first group when the little 8 year old asks the really hard question and I go, "Gee. I dunno: can I look it up for you?"
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The escopeta, a light, smoothbore, muzzle-loading musket or carbine was a popular weapon of the 18th century soldado de cuera. Carried well into the 19th. Century, this sturdy and dependable weapon saw use for nearly 200 years on the northern frontier.
Made with a Spanish or miguelet lock and a Catalan stock, There were many variations in barrel length, and stock design, but the miguelet lock was commonly used. In 1786, escopetas purchased for frontier use cost the Crown 6 pesos, 5 reales, 9 grains. The Model illustrated was made by Antonio Guisasola of Eibar, Spain, about 1830. It is caliber .75 with a Catalan stock and a 33 1/2-inch barrel. The quality of the piece indicates that it was carried by a gentleman or officer.
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Major 2,
Great post and great weapon ... if I ever get into a docent position as a mounted person, this would definitely bear consideration.
Although nothing like the Escopeta, I used to have a Morrocan snaphance as a kid, and it brings back memories of that weapon ....
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WaddWatsonEllis,
I have enjoyed your journey in developing a persona. Your statement that, in here, you relish hard questions that require hard research so as to prepare your stagecraft in order to not cheat your audience, is not only honorable but enviable.
The very best teachers not only know their subject, but know how to inflame the imagination with that knowledge.
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Major II; Bore of .75. That is the same as the Tower musket. The Spanish & Mexicans used a lot of surplus Brit equipment. So this calibre as an officer piece would be consistent.
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Santa Anna's troops were armed with Brown Bess's when they marched into Texas , Goliad, the Alamo & San Jacinto.
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And in the mid 1840's against the US during the Mexican War. The US troops were armed with flintlocks as well, leaving behind the Mod. 1842 percussion musket. With supply lines long or non-existent, Gen. Scott could not count on caps being available and they were far from waterproof so might not be reliable.
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Dr Bob,
This sounds interesting ... does anyone make a Cap and Ball Colt revolving rifle reproduction ... and in a perfect world, .44 cal. ?
Dixie Gun Works has / had one in the 1855 military configuration, ca. .44 percussion. Pricey bugger, but the only one I ever saw was very nice. Check with them. Could be they know of a copy of the Paterson type rifles from an earlier time.
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River City John,
Thank you for your kind thought ... I will try to live up to them.
The gist of it is that I expect to get a lot of "Just what is this Gringo doing trying to be Mexican"
Hence the search for an Anglo coverted Californio (There were a number of them who settled pryor to 1848, converted to Catholicism and became Mexican citizens in order to be 'fit in' and be awarded land grants bigger than Rhode Island ... And then, in 184, the Treaty of Guadelupe-Hidalgo made them all American citizens when California was annexed to the US.)
So all this preparation is so that I won't be a total idiot when the first historically knowledgeable Mexican American tries to take me apart ....
And if I do get any more kind complements, if you could see me you would see a perfect imitation of Wallace Beery ... 'AW, shucks, man, yuh didn' hav tuh go an' do that' ...
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And in the mid 1840's against the US during the Mexican War. The US troops were armed with flintlocks as well, leaving behind the Mod. 1842 percussion musket. With supply lines long or non-existent, Gen. Scott could not count on caps being available and they were far from waterproof so might not be reliable.
Not sure where you got that info Bob but it's got some problems:
1) The percussion M1841/2 musket was nicknamed the Mississippi Rifle due to it's use by the troops under Jeff Davis during the Mexican War. Also the the Colt Walker and other percussion cap firearms, including the percussion Hall breechloaders (first prodcued in 1832-33) saw a fair amount of use during the war, especially by Dragoons.
2) Caps were well developed by 1846 and were in fact most often waterproofed (Eley's were considered the best and they were offering waterproofed caps as early as the late 1820's). John J Audobon showed off his percussion gun to a friend in the early-1830's by firing it under water. By the late 1830's millions of caps were being offered for sale in St Louis, New Orleans, et al.
3) Flintlocks need flints to work and the idea that one could just pick up a chunk of an appropriate rock along the way is something of a falsehood. Military flintlock muskets generally had their flints replaced after every 20 shots. Long or non-existent supply lines would have also had an effect on powder and other supplies, including flints. Besides Scott was sent south to Veracruz by sea and was thus supplied from there and not overland from the north as was needed to be done by Taylor and Doniphan. Also during the war American traders continued their business coming down from the north - Susan Magoffins journal is a good read regarding the traders following in the wake of Doniphan's army in 1847 south to Saltillo.
4) I've got a Potsdam musket (built in 1820, converted to cap in 1843) that was carried west in 1846 with a member of the Missouri brigade who later settled in Northern New Mexico, married a Ute woman, and became a trader to the Utes.
5) The Brits did supply a considerable number of the later model Tower muskets to the Mexicans throughout Mexico and the Spanish Southwest.
6) By 1851-52 American firearms of all types were widely available in California, including the newly produced Sharps breechloaders (BTW - the first viable lever action was the Henry, not the M1866). The idea that the Spanish would not use such improved arms is a bit strange - even Joaquin Murietta, who hated Anglos used a Colt Walker.
As to Bowie Knives, some of the finest ever made were built/sold in San Francisco by such makers as Michael Price. Besides the English in particular had been supplying them throughout the world, but especially the USA by the very early 1830's and the 49'ers brought scads of them west.
While the Spanish Californios did attempt to retain much of their culture, they were not totally reluctant to take up the weapons, tools, and yes even the clothes of the Anglos and then adapt them to their own usage. James Hunt posted a pic in a recent post on overshirts in the NCOWS forum showing two Californios in Spanish style dress with one of them packing a holstered Colt Walker.
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Chuck,
As usual, your comments are succint, relevent, and really clear away the haze of what was going on ....
Since my character would have lived on the outskirts of Sacramento, approximately 100 miles (or an overnight steamboat ride) from San Francisco and the Colt distribution center of A.E. Burroughs (sp?), as well as the hometown of Winchester and Main (thought to be the originators of the California Slim Jim holster), I am going to go with a Model 1851 Colt in a Slim Jim holster ... The first shipment of 1851 Colts left New York for San Francisco in April of 1850, so they would have been available (and highly prized) in 1852.
As far as a long gun, as I have said before I am concentrating on a pistol, as I think the long guns would have been for use while on the road and not particularly a 'town weapon'. As such, I would think that a rider who made routine trips into town would have found a safe place to store a long gun and avoid having to fumble with it ...
Since my character would be off his horse on foot for a visit to a hardware store to check on some farming tools on order (That's my story and I'm sticking to it ...), I am sticking to a leather quirt, the aforementioned 1851 Colt & rig, and a couple of Belduques on my person.
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Thanks Chuck - you saved me a helluva lot of typing...
I'll point out to all, that before a blanket statement gets made - please look under the blanket to verify things are as they seem.
At the time frame of this Impression - it's a pretty 'civilized' world - especially for an interpretive guide.
Folks weren't wandering up and down the streets loaded for bear, like they are at a cowboy shoot - it wasn't needed.
The carrying of a revolver or single-shot pistol and a knife would've been most commonly seen, and besides - you want to tell folks about the 'times' and not your toys, and believe me, they 'can' become distractors.
As to the 'Californio' part of things - don't try to become 'Hispanic' - just work within the times and figure out a reasonable 'Anglo' occupation to be doing for one of your age, since you'd've been there awhile.
The clothing and style is going to be fully understandable to one who's actually taking the tour, because it's what was available and styles are followed by everyone, sooner or later, but having a 'backstory' is what's going to solidify your position - so read the newspaper accounts of the times and be more familiar with then-current events and personages and the like, and that'll sell your Impression.
Most folks who take these tours aren't there to sharpshoot the docent - but if said docent isn't up to speed on the area and the era - then they're a legitimate target.
Good Luck!
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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St George,
Hmmmm ... newspapers ... looks like I will be spending some time in Davis at Shield's Library ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sacramento_Union
Thanks for the tip ... I have been concentrating on land grants and antique books ... never gave a thought to researching the Microfiche ...
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Knowing something about the Land Grants is useful - knowing more about day-to-day activities in the community is more useful.
Make yourself aware of ship timetables and freighting and politics and people and personages and events.
It'll give a far more interesting talk to folks who actually want to learn more than just what's in the pamphlet.
And - make it simple and intelligible to average folks as well as the more historically-minded.
You can eloquently explain the minute differences of your 'belduque' - but all that most folks will hear is 'knife', as they zone out to wait for something of interest to them...
Keep your topics light and well-rehearsed and 'know' your backstory and individual history, as well as what was happening during the times, so you can flesh things out as-needed - and practice your patter with a couple of guys who'll give you honest feedback, so you can do full justice to your efforts as well as your audience.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Excellent ideas ... I have always thought that being a docent is a lot like seeking perfection ... a journey that one never really finishes ...
Freight, rail and ship schedules and abilities would be great to know ... I have a general knowledge of it, but nothing like what a person of the day would have ...
Thanks!
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Not sure where you got that info Bob but it's got some problems:
1) The percussion M1841/2 musket was nicknamed the Mississippi Rifle due to it's use by the troops under Jeff Davis during the Mexican War. Also the the Colt Walker and other percussion cap firearms, including the percussion Hall breechloaders (first prodcued in 1832-33) saw a fair amount of use during the war, especially by Dragoons.
2) Caps were well developed by 1846 and were in fact most often waterproofed (Eley's were considered the best and they were offering waterproofed caps as early as the late 1820's). John J Audobon showed off his percussion gun to a friend in the early-1830's by firing it under water. By the late 1830's millions of caps were being offered for sale in St Louis, New Orleans, et al.
3) Flintlocks need flints to work and the idea that one could just pick up a chunk of an appropriate rock along the way is something of a falsehood. Military flintlock muskets generally had their flints replaced after every 20 shots. Long or non-existent supply lines would have also had an effect on powder and other supplies, including flints. Besides Scott was sent south to Veracruz by sea and was thus supplied from there and not overland from the north as was needed to be done by Taylor and Doniphan. Also during the war American traders continued their business coming down from the north - Susan Magoffins journal is a good read regarding the traders following in the wake of Doniphan's army in 1847 south to Saltillo.
4) I've got a Potsdam musket (built in 1820, converted to cap in 1843) that was carried west in 1846 with a member of the Missouri brigade who later settled in Northern New Mexico, married a Ute woman, and became a trader to the Utes.
5) The Brits did supply a considerable number of the later model Tower muskets to the Mexicans throughout Mexico and the Spanish Southwest.
6) By 1851-52 American firearms of all types were widely available in California, including the newly produced Sharps breechloaders (BTW - the first viable lever action was the Henry, not the M1866). The idea that the Spanish would not use such improved arms is a bit strange - even Joaquin Murietta, who hated Anglos used a Colt Walker.
As to Bowie Knives, some of the finest ever made were built/sold in San Francisco by such makers as Michael Price. Besides the English in particular had been supplying them throughout the world, but especially the USA by the very early 1830's and the 49'ers brought scads of them west.
While the Spanish Californios did attempt to retain much of their culture, they were not totally reluctant to take up the weapons, tools, and yes even the clothes of the Anglos and then adapt them to their own usage. James Hunt posted a pic in a recent post on overshirts in the NCOWS forum showing two Californios in Spanish style dress with one of them packing a holstered Colt Walker.
Chuck,
I have been a Mexican War reenactor for 20 years and have done extensive research on most aspects of the war. Jeff Davis was commander of the 1st Mississippi Regt. which was a State unit, armed by the state, not a Regt. raised by the US Army. The Regiments of the regular Army were indeed armed with flintlocks. The Dragoons did have some halls carbines. I was only reporting what I learned reading around 20 books on the war and spend numerous days at the Frontier Army Museum at Ft. Leavenworth which covers the Army from 1800 to 1916. Yes, some units were armed with percussion arms, but they were in the minority.
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Regulars would've had percussion weapons, while Militia and Volunteers would've had the older, cast-off flintlocks handed down by the Regular Army.
That said - another aspect of the impression that's useful is going to be 'money'...
There were a number of private banks that issued coinage and notes of legal tender.
Find yourself a supplier of some replica coins and bills and carry them in a vest pocket or pouch - and well-selected 'Fool's gold' can double as 'dust'.
You can even photocopy the bills along with a bit of information and give them as hand-outs to kids.
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
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Chuck,
I have been a Mexican War reenactor for 20 years and have done extensive research on most aspects of the war. Jeff Davis was commander of the 1st Mississippi Regt. which was a State unit, armed by the state, not a Regt. raised by the US Army. The Regiments of the regular Army were indeed armed with flintlocks. The Dragoons did have some halls carbines. I was only reporting what I learned reading around 20 books on the war and spend numerous days at the Frontier Army Museum at Ft. Leavenworth which covers the Army from 1800 to 1916. Yes, some units were armed with percussion arms, but they were in the minority.
Bob is basically correct. The regular army infantry were armed with flintlock muskets for the Mexican war. The dragoons were issued Hall's breech loading percussion carbines and the Mounted Rifles were armed with the "new" percussion model 1841 rifles. The 1841s were also issued to the 1st Mississippi Rifles who used them to great effect at the battle of Buena Vista. That is where the 1841 got its nickname "The Mississippi Rifle."
Books
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"The infantry under General Taylor was armed with flint-lock muskets, and paper cartridges charged with powder, buck-shot and ball." The Mesican-American War 1846-1848,Osprey Men-At-Arms Series #56, London, 1976, pg 12.
As the volunteer reenactment of the Frontier Army Museum, the infantry were armed with Mod. 1835 Flintlock muskets [reproduction - personally owned]. This is the correct arm for the Infantry of the US Army for the Mexican War! The infantry with General Scott were aremed with them too!
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WWE,
I didn't think you were being combative at all. Sometimes I use language like that ("this is not a challenge") merely to make sure *I* am not looking combative. That's all.
;-)
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Kflach,
I understand entirely; it is so easy to be taken as sarcastic and litteral when one is making a joke ....
In fact, my last comment to you was of that ilk ... that we are on the same page on this ....
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WWE,
If you are still trying to find out some info about ranchos in the Sacramento area, see if you can track down anything on "Rancho San Juan" It was an 1844 land grant, of several thousand acres. It pretty much took up the whole northeast corner of Sacto County. It covered the area between the present Highway 50 and I-80: Fair Oaks (I grew up there), Orangevale, Citrus Heights, Carmichael and Folsom - pretty much everything north of the American river, up to around the Roseville/Loomis area. Don't know if there was a "main hacienda"; I seem to remember the owner/ patrón did not actually live there. I always thought it unusual that the main market for cattle in California in those days was NOT beef, but hides and tallow.
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Guns Garrett,
I am looking for a peculiarity ... my spreckled Spanish would not last for more than a minute or so. So the perfect persona, both from a historical and personal viewpoint, would be to emulate one of the many Yanquis who came to California prior to the Treaty of Guadelupe-Hidalgo in 1848, and married into a Spanish family, becoming Catholic and a Mexican Citizen. As such, their Spanish would not have to be perfect, and they would have one foot in both worlds, as a Yanqui turned Mexican Citizen who was repatriated back to American citizenship after the 1848 treaty.
Finding land grants in this area is fairly easy. Besides Sutter, there was a land grant that held most of what is now West Sacramento and Davis. I thought I had found my identity in Jared Sheldon ... but he was shot by miners and killed a year before I would be reenacting ....
Jared Dixon Sheldon, one of our earliest pioneers and originally from Vermont, came to California in 1832 and at some point afterward became a Mexican citizen. In 1842, Thomas Larkin, who was then the American Consul to Mexico, was awarded the contract for expansion and improvement of the Customs House in Monterey, which had been built in 1827. Jared Sheldon worked on this project for Thomas Larkin. Based on the size of the land grant he received as payment for services to the Mexican government on this project it could be assumed he was a foreman. He was granted Omochumnes Rancho, nearly 14,000 acres near present day Sloughhouse and Rancho Murieta, in 1843 for his work. It was there that he and friend William Daylor built a grist mill in 1845 to mill wheat for Capt. John Sutter on the Cosumnes River. To supply water to his crops south of the river he built a dam 16-ft high, double-walled of heavy oak, and filled with large stones. On July 12, 1851 he was shot and killed by 40 to 100 angry miners in the river below his dam. Also killed in the shootout were 2 of Sheldon’s 12 friends, James M. Johnson of Iowa and Edward Cody of Illinois. Three men were wounded, including a miner. The prevailing miners destroyed the sluice gate in the dam. They had unrecorded gold mining claims in the river-bottom on Sheldon’s land, which would be flooded by the rising water upstream from the dam. Subsequent floods continued the dam’s destruction, and hydraulic mining in Michigan Bar buried the remnants in silt. Public right of access to California streams was not clarified until 1879. This display shows how the mill worked and pictures of the remains of the mill. Various parts of the mill are now on display at the Heritage Park in effort to help preserve this part of our rich heritage. Plans are underway, as funding allows, to create a working model of Sheldon's Grist Mill.
So far, I have not found such a person .....
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Hi Y'all,
I was putzing on the internet and came upon this painting named 'California Tandem' ... Here it is:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/CaliforniaTandem.jpg)
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Got the dreaded RED X. :( :(
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Hi Y'all,
I was putzing on the internet and came upon this painting named 'California Tandem' ... Here it is:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/CaliforniaTandem.jpg)
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WWE,
If you are still trying to find out some info about ranchos in the Sacramento area, see if you can track down anything on "Rancho San Juan" It was an 1844 land grant, of several thousand acres. It pretty much took up the whole northeast corner of Sacto County. It covered the area between the present Highway 50 and I-80: Fair Oaks (I grew up there), Orangevale, Citrus Heights, Carmichael and Folsom - pretty much everything north of the American river, up to around the Roseville/Loomis area. Don't know if there was a "main hacienda"; I seem to remember the owner/ patrón did not actually live there. I always thought it unusual that the main market for cattle in California in those days was NOT beef, but hides and tallow.
Guns Garrett;
I am retired from Mercy Hospitals, and for much of my career I worked at Mercy San Juan which I was always told was part of a big ranch .... now I know that the ranch was even bigger than I supposed ...
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I scnned back over this thread and never found a mention of the Colt Root PISTOLS.
There is a good repro out, tiny little thing, that is really a hoot.
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Forty Rod,
I got a very good deal on a .44 Cal '51 Colt and that is going to be the weapon for a very long time, or until I get such a deal that I cannot turn it down .... Will Ghormley made me a copy of an original Main & Winchester California Slim Jim that I wear crossdraw. It looks good and fits well, so there it is ... although I was at a men's antique shop (i.e., he sold manly things), and there were several inexpensive pepperboxes there ... so if I find myself there again (I was at a church conference), I just might be tucking a little .31 Cal pepperbox inside my sash. Talk about run-on sentences!
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Don't worry! It made sense! Better than a lot of folks can! ;D
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a .44 Cal '51 Colt
Sorry; but there is no such thing, historcally.
Books
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Sorry; but there is no such thing, historcally.
Books
Yes there was/is, they've been around since the 1960's, that make them almost antiques.
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Books,
Mea Culpa, you are right. Historically, there was no such thing as a '51 .44 Caliber Colt.
But I intentionally bought this larger-than-historically-correct pistol because:
It was for sale used at a rediculously low price.
Sometime just after the Civil War, the US Army did a study of battlefield mortality. One of the interesting things that they observed was officers with .36 Colts, dead with an expended Colt in their hand. The enemy lived long enough to inflict mortal wounds on the officer before dying.
99.99% of the time this will be a holster queen for reenactments, and the public will see about as much as you do in the picture below (sticking out of a historically correct Main & Winchester Slim Jim Copy). The 0.01% of the time I would have to use this, you can bet your great grandmother's bippy that I would rather have the .44 Caliber ... of course, unless given the time to load I would be better off trying to use my Belduque ... LOL.
But that is the reason I carry an 1851 Repro Colt in /44 Cal.
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/WillGhormelySlimJim.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Pietta1851ColtonRug.jpg)
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Nice looking rig. If it were mine I would strip that red Italian finish and restain the grips a more proper color.
Will Ketchum
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Will,
Great minds seem to run in the same tracks ... LOL.
I did exactly what you said ... and used walnut Danish oil to stain the grips ... then coated them with a marine product callled Deks Olje (pronounced ol-ya). The marine coating is more or less half tung oil and half polyurethane ... hella hardy, more or less waterproof, and is the only product that I ever used that would hold up for a year on the decks of my sailboat under the harsh California Delta sun.
The stuff goes on like a tung oil; one keeps applying coats of oil until it the coating closes off the grain, then a light coat every so often for about four hours.
The nicest thing about it is that, if the finish is scratched,one can wet sand it, let it dry, and then re-coat. Unlike varnish, the finish will feather into any scratches.
The Deks Olje I gives a satin finish ... and by adding coats of the Deks Olje II to the top of # I, the finish goes to a high shine varnish like finish.
The weapon in the holster is the same as the one on the rug ... the one in the holster is just after stripping, staining and Deks Olje treatment ...
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Hi
I was 'color for a state banquet in which they had a professional photgapher ... so he took my picture en mufti and as I promised, I put it in my profile ...
Whaddaya think?
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/CalifornioProfile.jpg)
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WWE,
You look very extinguished, I mean distinguished! :-[ ;) ;D A great looking jacket. :o ;D
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That should pass Muster.
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Thanks; like I said on another forum, sometimes I feel that I look like a psychotic Mariachi player ... then there is the tourist who will gush to her child, 'Oh, look, Honey, a cowboy!' *S*
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It looks like one of those guys in the pictures of the Californio guys!
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Kflach,
Thank you for the complements ... it is nice to get a warm feedback from someone who has watched this grow ... *S*
And the shoot with your club sounds right in line with when I will be there ...
Tonight will be the first time I will have time to pay any attention to the videos and sites that you sent, so will write back on them then ....
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Hi
I was 'color for a state banquet in which they had a professional photgapher ... so he took my picture en mufti and as I promised, I put it in my profile ...
Whaddaya think?
By Gum Sir, I do believe you will fit right in with the historical mansion/museum, and you do look, to my eye, better than most docents we see!
yhs
prof marvel
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Professore,
Graci for the kind words ... and it just keeps getting better ... The Calaveras pants that I bought only buttoned from the knee down (instead of from the waist down). So I called Hamilton Dry Goods and got some remnant fabric. The fabric will make a placquette that goes from the waistband down. It will replace the buttonholled-to-the- existing placquette and will open to the knee, but will have fake buttonholes and buttons all the way up to the waist band.
Then, when the Botas arrive, it will mean another profile pic, full length this time showing the Calveras, Botas Belduque , etc .
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May Update #1 ...
I Recieved the exra fabric fabric from Hamilton Dry Goods (Where I got the Vaquero Pants from).
( http://www.hamiltondrygoods.com/ )
A lady from this Historic Society is going to make the exteded 'buttonhole plaquette' all the way up to the waistband with the extra material.
And I am getting a set of silver 'Mariachi' botanadura in a rose patter from a Mariachi Supply company in San Antonio
( http://www.larosadancesupply.com/ ) ... and the set includes a chain 'Frog' that will connect the jacket ...
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WWE,
Thanks for the link! ;D
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Dr Bob,
One Caveat of note concerning La Rosa Dance Supply.
When I ordered the original red tie, it was not sent. I called them back and reminded them. It was at that time I was sent the tie, and they seemed mildly amused that it had hadn't been sent ...
I ordered a couple of more ties in different colors about a month ago, thinking that the lack of being sent the items was just a fluke. This time, again, no delivery after almost a month, nor is there any debit from my account. I am not calling them back.
I am trying to find somebody local and more dependable.
If I do run across another company, I will let you know ....
BTW, it is now almost August, and I still have not been sent the ties ....
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WWE,
Thanks for the heads up!!
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Ya know, I'm beginning to suspect there's a typo in the subject line of this thread. Maybe it's supposed to say, "What gear would an 1860 chick-magnet carry with him?"
<grin>
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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IF he is a 'chick magnet' the magnetism is stuck on the 'repel mode' ... LOL ... how do you think I, er, he gets to spend so much money on 'man toys'?
I.e.; no dates, no gifts to buy, the ability to be entirely selfish ...
Of course, guns are rather cold to sleep with, but with practice .... *L*
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Maybe a chick magnet that's playing hard-to-get?
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If I got any easier, I would have to get EASY tatooed on my Forehead ... LOL
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As long as you did it in a period-correct font...
<grin>
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Kflach,
Being correct takes alll the 'font' out or it ....
UPDATE: I now have the knife from Josh Dabney; I'm just waiting for the botas to slip them in ...
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Belduque476.jpg)
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Sigh, that is soooooo beautiful!
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Sigh,
Too true.
I was carrying it out to my car for a history thing, and dropped it; it felt as if I had dropped the Mona Lisa...
I will be happy when to Botas arrive and I can wear it securely ....
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The Boxer Rebellion was during 1900, not 1899, at least regarding the events in Peking at the time.
Quite correct about the Walker being a pistol intended for carry in a saddle pommel holster. The Dragoon might have been lighter than the Walker's 4-1/2 pounds. Lonesome Dove wasn't the only movie with Walkers carried in a belt holster, Josie Wales carried a pair in hip holsters. I even saw some in Dead Man's Walk, chronologically the first in the Lonesome Dove series, but as the setting of the movie is 1842 they are an anachronism becuase the that's 5 years before the Walker hit the market. Guess Paterson models were too scarce to be able to use in the mini-series. James Olmos carries one in a boot, which is also unrealistic.
If you're looking for eventual replacement for the Ruger Old Army (man I wish Ruger still made those), try the Dragoon or the aforementioned 1849 Pocket or 1851 Navy. The Remington may be called the Model 1858 but that's only because the patent date was 1858, they didn't go into production until 1862 and those went to the Yankee army first, like the 1860 Colt. I think the LeMat was available before Lincoln started his war, but replica's are near $1000 and it would seem doubtful if any made it to the west coast prior to 1865.
If any of this is redundant, my apologies, I didn't have the time or inclination at the moment to read through 20 some odd pages.
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Rambling Rex,
At the turn of the century I sincerely doubt if there were any .36 cal pistols extant in the Army.
If there were any Reserve or National Guard equipped with an older weapon, I think it would have been S & W # 3 .45 Schofields...
As for my own gun, I was able to purchase the Gun That Never Was ... an 1851 colt in .44 Cal.
So to the average tourist, who only sees the Butt and hammer, it is an 1851 Colt ...
But should I ever have to fire it in earnest, it is a .44Cal
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Pietta1851ColtonRug.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/WillGhormelySlimJim.jpg)
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Guess I'm a little confused as to what your question was orginally then. I thought you were asking about costuming (including a holster gun) for a (circa) 1860 Californio. It's up to you what caliber you want, but for historical re-creation doesn't it seem odd to use a historically incorrect gun?
The Boxer Rebellion is a completely separate issue. The standard issue then was the Colt Model 1892 (or one of the updates between then and 1901) in .38 Colt.
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Rambling Rex,
I appologize if the caption confused you ... over the lst 200 threads or so, we have wandered over many sujects; calaveras, Belduques, and Botas de Alas to name a few ... when I started this thread, I was just begining to learn just what a Californio was ... and I was naive enough to believe that I could just wear asome SASS pants, a frilly shirt and a bolo tie ... with a sombrero and a couple of Ruger Old Armys ... buy a vaquero jacket, and Bob's your uncle!
Fortunately, there were three or four guys with masters degrees in Western Civilization who set me straight ... and now , some $2K later, I have a pretty representative outfit .... in fact, the photo in my prifile is in my Californio trappings ...
The hardest thing to find is the Calaveras (i.e. Spanish pants that button up the outside seam)... But I now have a pattern, so if I can buy a couple of yards of matching cloth (to the vaquero jackets they sell) from the supplier, I can have some made for me ...
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Rambling Rex,
I appologize if the caption cofsed you ... over the lst 200 pages or so, we havw andered over many sujects; claveras, Belduques, and Botas de Alas to name a few ... when I started this thread, I was just begining to learn just what a Californio was ... and I was naive enough to believe that I could just wear asome SASS pants, a frilly shirt and a bolo tie ... with a sombrero and a couple of Ruger Old Armys ... buy a vaquero jacket, and Bob's your uncle!
Fortunately, there were three or four guys with masters degrees in Western Civilization who set me straight ... and now , some $2K later, I have a pretty representative outfit .... in fact, the photo in my prifile is in my Californio trappings ...
The hardest thing to find is the Calaveras (i.e. Spanish pants that button up the outside seam)... But I now have a pattern, so if I can buy a couple of yards of matching cloth (to the vaquero jackets they sell) from the supplier, I can have some made for me ...
That's some kind of expensive authenticity! There was a guy named Modoc in some other thread complaining about CAS folks not being "authentic" enough for him. He had a few good points about Cowboys not being affluent enough for new duds and iron, but generally just seemed to be bitchy. I bet he never forked out that kind of money for his brand of authenticity.
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Ramblin' Rex,
I tend to agree with him ... I read the average cowboy somewhere that the average cowboy brought home about $40/Month ... when a new colt cost about the same ... I think we have our cowboy genre confused with the 'hollywood' versions we see ... so I think cowboys were always robbing Peter to pay Paul ... and financially were on a scale a little above that of a fast food worker today .... why people really did not want their daughter to marry a cowboy ....
On the other hand a Californio might not have enough money to pay for his next meal, but he would insure that his saddle was lined in silver and he carried the best of the best ... it reminds me of the end of the Russian Aristocracy, where the appearance of affluency was sacred ....
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Considering the times a cowboy was a cut above some. He was skilled labor, even though seasonal sometimes, and $30-$40 a month beat farming, teaching school, and many other jobs. Also his meals (such as they were) were provided and he generally rode company horses.
Most cowboys didn't carry Colts based on all the pictures I've seen, whether posed or not. The pistol of choice seemed to be a small break-top revolver, and I have seldom seen real cowboys toting big honkin' knives or fancy rifles.
The Californios tended toward the fancy in their dress and horse gear, much like the younger Mexican boys lean toward fancy cars and clothes today. They might live in a hovel, but their clothes and rides are fine.
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The Californios tended toward the fancy in their dress and horse gear, much like the younger Mexican boys lean toward fancy cars and clothes today. They might live in a hovel, but their clothes and rides are fine.
Looking fine is what guys like this didn't do as they were real cowboys and everything they owned was used as a tool. The working cowboy like my grandfather (pictured here in Oklahoma previous to it becoming a state), would beat up any dandy dressed like a pimp, just for fun...
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Grampa1880s-1.jpg)
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Different era and different culture!
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Enjoyed spending a bit of time reading the posts on this subject. I found it very enjoyable and worthwhile. If I may; I think one of the most common pistols used in the California gold rush and early Texas was the pepperbox. No one likes Walkers more than I. I have owned a replica for 25 years and think the Colt navies and armies are so cool but in the mid 1800s it took awhile before the revolver we love so much was afforded by so many of the comman man. It was the civil war that brought great productions of these fine revolvers. Before that it was the flint and percussion single and double pistols. The Pepperbox was a great improvement and truly sought.
Just a thought
Caprock Louis
Lost deep in the heart of Texas
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If we, or in this case WWE, made or had our wives/girlfriends/mothers make our own clothing the money we spend could come down significantly.
Also, it would be interesting to compare costs adjusted for inflation. I haven't seen anyone do that, though it's very possibly been done. Are ya'll aware of any comparisons? A brand-new Remington 1875 replica (Cimarron's "The Outlaw") lists for around $560 today. For some people that's about a weeks' salary. If Cowboys made $30-40 a month, that would be around $7.50-$10 dollars. I know I've seen people on this site talk about the prices of the guns back then. Was $10 for a revolver a lot at that time? I guess I'm trying to say that $2000 may not be proportionally as much as it sounds.
Of course, there are new guns to be had today for 3 or more times that amount...
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I bought my Pietta used for about $150 .... since I am a pretty died in the wool cartridge man, buying a pistol for reenactments meant some thing that looked good and was cheap ... LOL
I think I mentioned before that a new Colt was about $40, or about the same as the average cowboys monthly wage ... but a local gunsmith could turn a cap n ball into a conversion cartridge weapon for about $4. Hence the large number of conversions about ...
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Looking fine is what guys like this didn't do as they were real cowboys and everything they owned was used as a tool. The working cowboy like my grandfather (pictured here in Oklahoma previous to it becoming a state), would beat up any dandy dressed like a pimp, just for fun...
(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee202/bridgershooters/Grampa1880s-1.jpg)
Apples and oranges. I was talking about the Californio vaqueros when they went to town...as WWE is doing. He sure isn't representing a cow nurse in the field.
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Thank you for the kind words Forty Rod,
The Caifornios were about as aristocratic a people as we will see in an area that became part of the us ... they had servants and vaqueros of indian and mixed blood that would do any demeaning tasks (and demeaning seemed to be definened by anything that could not be done from horseback).
Not that Californios might have a few indians or mexican native born in their closet ... but from what I have read, until the Yanquis came it was very near a feudal society. The owners of the Rancheros held themselves a cut above, qute possibly to separate themselves from the prisoners and debtors sent from Mexico to help colonize California.
This painting by James Walker shows the formal side of Califormions much better than I can explain ...
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/james-walker-californio-grp.jpg)
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The Saga Continues ...
I found out that all the first '51 Colts that came to California were 'square backs' with silver inlaid backstrap and trigger guard ...
So, I am having a square back trigger guard worked on for me ... it was the only one I found that came really close to fitting my pistol.
You see, what I thought was a Pietta seems to be an Armi San Marcos, and finding parts for the gun is a real bear.
So when I found a square back trigger guard , it fits except that the trigger guard his only 3/4" high rather than the 1" needed. So a local jewelry shop is cutting off the horizontal lower part of the trigger guard and adding 1/4" so that the longer trigger of this weapon will swing freely ....
Once the trigger is adapted, the jewelry shop is going to have both the trigger guard and backstrap silver plated ....
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Get the book "Reminicinces of a Ranger" by Horace Bell. (1881)
http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=reminiscences+of+a+ranger&tag=yahhyd-20&index=aps&hvadid=18179086511&ref=pd_sl_2i90smib4o_b
It is a great first-hand account of life in California during the 1850s. It spells out in detail of the preferred gear and clothing styles. It is very well documented that Anglos adopted the Vaquero styles wearing Botas de talons with bowie knives tucked into them, colt navy sixes and batteries, Calzoneras, Vicuna hats etc. The sutters fort costume guide gives great diagrams on period clothing. I do and 1850s Los Angeles Rangers impression and carry a Cold Black Powder series navy six with a silver-handled bowie and a custom St. Louis gun. I have other period newspaper and bound publications that can help also. I have been studying it for a while now. I'm glad to see someone else out there with a shared interest.
-Dave
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Being a new forum member and slowly going through the postings here this is one of the most interesting.More so being an Illinois prairie dweller who has read or studied little about this part of history.I have enjoyed the information shared by all,it is extremely enlightening for a dummy on the subject of early California history. :)
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Dave,
Thanks!
I ordered a copy for me and a copy for our museum library ... and I am looking forward to reading it ...
Jim Bob,
I LIVE here and knew very little about them ... If it were not for the thoughtfullness of several of our members I would be committing thousands of other little countless errors .... carrying my Ruger Old Army and maybe a big Bowie rather than that Belduque ...
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"Reminiscences of a Ranger"
is also available on line in PDF format at:
Google books - just use the title to search in Google Books
Open Library.org - http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7096294M/Reminiscences_of_a_ranger
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Chuck,
Ah, well they are already paid for and on their way ... and I think that the second book will make a nice research book of the small library that the musum has ....
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In regards to powderhorn or flask, try finding a flat powder horn. It is as convenient as a flask, period correct from about 1830 on and can be scrimshawed or decorated with silver or what ever. It can be hung by a cord or a leather socket or pouch used for storage. I made and used one for a couple of years when I was buckskinning.
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The Californios seemed to hold onto swords and knives as long as they could ... it was kind of considered a 'lack of character' to do harm to a person from accross a room ... that if one really disliked a person that bad, and damage should be done 'up cose and personal' ... ojo to ojo ...
There was a very short time when the tradional Californio clothes bumped into cap and ball weapons ... like they had to arm themselved once the yanquis came in with their pistols ... by the 1860s Californios were adopting yanqui clothes ...
So finding any pictures with cap and ball is problematic ... all the paintings of the period show them with swords at best .... and if you ever look at any pictures of the era, pistols and rifles are displayed proudly, where cap and ball bag and powder flasks are usually not .....
So on the one hand, I can pick whetever might have come up the Sacramento River from San Francisco ... on the other, I have nothing to gude me to a correct flask or bag ....
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Wadd,
Once again let me compliment the thought and effort you have devoted to your persona. I hope the museum and its patrons appreciate the care you have taken to refine the presentation you are giving them.
At one time Dixie Gun Works had some repro French flasks, of the 'bag' type, one plain and one an all-over basket weave pattern. These European influence flasks may fit the bill.
As to a ball bag, I would imagine that if you could find any documentation for tobacco pouches or bags or the like, it could do double duty. I'vs seen some fancy tobacco bags of pigskin or goat that resemble the long bags that are pulled up through a sash or belt and left to hang over.
RCJ
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River City John,
Why thank you ... but the honest truth is that I don't have a life .... after three divorces from good women I have to admit that I just don't have the skills to be in a long term relationship .... LOL
So, lacking the 'normal' things that mark time (like marital and familial relationships *S*) I find it easy to get in the 'thread counter' mode and obsess about all the little things
But thank you for the kind comments ... it is a lot of fun ... but I would trade it for grandkids around the Christmas tree any day ...
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Wadd,
Havent heard from you in a while...... how's the pistola coming?
Fingers
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Fingers,
Well met!
I have been trying to pay the project, if not forward, at least keeping it real time.
The jewelers did a fantastic job of it and I owe them $200 to get it paid off for the trigger guard job ...
Once that is paid, then it is to be sent to a plating shop to get the back strap and trigger guard plated ....
But with Christmas coming up and a couple of other projects going, this isn't going to get done until the New Year at the earliest ...
And don't worry, I will show the results like a proud papa showing off his baby pics ....
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Wadd,
Thanks for the update. Will keep a lookout for the pictures.
FM
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Okay, here goes reply #2 ...
I had spent an hour getting pics and stuff ready on reply # 1 when my computer switched to another page and discarded the entire post .... so here goes a truncated #2 ...
First, thanks for all the thoughtful advice so freely given ... it has really helped flesh out my Character!
In order to be more accurate, I bought a 'Gun that Never Was', a '51 Colt in .44 Cal ... Will Ghormley made me a copy of a Maine and Winchester Slim Jim holster, and Chuck Burrows cut down an old belt to make my gun rig ... pics below.
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/BlackPowderRigwith51Colt.jpg)
Californios also did not carry Bowies, but had their own type of knife called a Belduque. I could not find a lare enough Belduque, so Josh Dabney was kind enough to make this one for me. I have been waiting for over two years for the Botas De Alas to carry it in, and I look forward to wearing the knife ...
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Belduque476.jpg)
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It's a pity Lyman doesn't carry their '51 Navy anymore. It was a squareback with silver plated backstrap and triggerguard. I have one that I picked up close to 30 years ago, still shoots great and is a slick looker too.
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Drayton,
Gotta run to go and volunteer, but I wanted to get this off before I go ... if there is typo I appologize.
I was given several square back trigger guards ... but none fit ... eacho one fit the three bolts on the trigger guard, but by the time they reached the backstrap screw hole, they were about 3/8" too far forward. Perhaps for a Walker or a Dragoon ... or an 1849?
So I sent an extra round trigger guard that fit to a jewleler who cut off the back curve of the trigger guard and fashioned a squre one out of silver.
So now I am waiting to get the engraving done and then I will silver plate the whole trigger guard and backstrap ... as the first '51 Colts that came to California were ... and I will post pictures when done ...
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Well, Wadd, it's been almost ten minutes. Where are those pictures you promised? ::)
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:D ;D
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Dear Forty Rod and Drayton,
Believe me, no one is as ready to see this projuect doen as myself ... but all I can show you is the original gun with the original roundtrigger guard and the jeweler 'modified' triggerguard.
And you will see the finisehd gun just as soon as it is done and back together ...
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/51ColtandRoundTriggerguardModifiedtoSquareback.jpg)
I have also attached a couple of pics of an old engraved Colt I am thinking of copying
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I also found a pattern through The Possibles Shop for some 'Breed Leggings' ... the trapper/northern indian versian of Botas De Alas ... since I have been waiting for the Botas I ordered for over two years, I may end up making some of these towards the spring and reenactment season ...
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/BotasPatternPic.jpg)
:)
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Wadd, I have watched your journey on this thread since the beginning with nothing but admiration. How ever it occurs to me that bought the revolver because it is what you could afford and in the holster who could tell the difference. But now you are spending money to make it prettier but it still doesn't change a pig's ear into a silk purse ::). Wouldn't it make more sense to sell the incorrect pistol and buy a correct 51?
Please don't take this as any sort of criticism. I am just curious.
Will Ketchum
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Will,
Good point .... the thing is that I just don't LIKE .36 cal weapons ...
Long story ... at 18 I was running a crew of laborers for Manpower ... not that I had any managerial skills mind you ... I was the only one who could be counted on to be sober ....
Anywho, we had this Huge guy named Tiny ... he was like an adolescent mentally ... and one night the was doing a pub crawl when he tried to move on a pregnant prostitute.
She pulled out a Beretta and said, 'You SOB, take one more step and I'll filll you full of holes!'
As he was walking forward, he said, I am told (I did not hang with them), 'Aw, Honey, yuh wouldn't do that....'
You could almost see Wallace Berry saying that ina bar scene ...
That is when she emptied the Beretta's clip point blank into his belly.
Thankfully he was a big child and didn't throttle her on the spot. Instead, he went to his car and drove himself to the emergency room.
The bullets just bounced around in his prodigious fat layer.
That was Friday and he was loading trucks on Monday.
Ever since then I have eschewed anything under .44cal.
INMHO.
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And, to be honest, a lot of the reenactors use .44cal '51 colts 'cause they can make more smoke ....
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Will,
Good point .... the thing is that I just don't LIKE .36 cal weapons ...
Ever since then I have eschewed anything under .44cal.
INMHO.
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And, to be honest, a lot of the reenactors use .44cal '51 colts 'cause they can make more smoke ....
A lot of things don't make sense...for example, .44 Navies....That's all you can buy in the shops around here...the top of the line is a .44 steel-frame model for $339.99.
The rest are brass framed & start at $199.99.
Decent used C&B's are available on GB at generally modest prices.
For better price on NEW, check Midway USA, Cabelas, etc.
Renactors who want the most smoke & noise use dragoons & walkers.
But, well-stoked, the .36 is as good as the average guy's load in a .44 (I'm speaking blanks).
Regards,
Slim
Slim
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I have never used a gun in anger or in self defence. Still, i purchase every weapon I own with that possibility in mind ... Like General Thompson, I believe that any gun much smaller than .45 Cal to be not too worthy ... I mean, if I am going to carry that kind of weight around, I will at least have it a .44 cal. ...
http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/web/genthomp.htm
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I have never used a gun in anger or in self defence. Still, i purchase every weapon I own with that possibility in mind ... Like General Thompson, I believe that any gun much smaller than .45 Cal to be not too worthy ... I mean, if I am going to carry that kind of weight around, I will at least have it a .44 cal. ...
http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/web/genthomp.htm
So what caliber are your pocket pistols? ;)
Will Ketchum
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I actually have two of them ... both in .32 S&W ...almost all that is available out here .... and I would only be carring them with my Schofields .... and the pocket pistol would be my last choice ...
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/SWModel4BesideHolster.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/32CaliberRemingtonConversionjpg.jpg)
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WWE, Have you made yourself a pair of botas yet?
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Santee,
Nope: I have had a pair on order from a very respected leathermaker for over two years ... but I am beginning to give up hope ...
I have a set of patterns for some 'breed leggings' (northern versions of botas) and that does give me an option of making my own ....but I am sure they will be a poor imitationof what could have been had I gotten the original pair.
So I am thinking of making these sometime towards the spring. I got the pattern from the Possibles Shop:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/BotasPatternPic.jpg)
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WWE:
Posting here a little late in the game as far as this thread is concerned, but I thought I'd add the following information as regards to Californians in the mid 19th Century:
My hometown in the Eastern High Sierra of California was founded by a man named Samuel Bishop.
(http://i55.tinypic.com/30d83n5.jpg)
He came to this howling wilderness in the Owens Valley, east of the Sierra, near the Nevada border from Fort Tejon in 1861 and established a cattle ranch along a creek for the purpose of sending beef north to the boom town of Aurora, Nevada. Mark Twain lived in Aurora at the time and wrote the book: Roughing It based on his experiences there. The town of Bodie was later (in the 1870s) established nearby.
The area around Samuel Bishop's ranch soon became a town called "Bishop Creek," and later, after 1889, just "Bishop."
It was wild here in the 1860s with trouble from the hostile Paiute Indians and many shootouts among Cowboys in the cowcamps of the Owens Valley. This area is only 80 miles south of Bodie, the wildest town in the Old West. Bodie made Tombstone and Dodge City look like children’s daycare centers by comparison. Read Gunfighters, Highwaymen & Vigilantes by Roger McGrath about this area. There are still many wild horses (mustangs) around here.
Before he came to the Owens Valley, Samuel Bishop was a justice of the peace at Fort Tejon. This is what Captain Gardiner of Fort Tejon wrote about Samuel Bishop in 1858:
“I have here a Justice of the peace on my hands…and he, the Justice, is now preparing himself by reading a thick volume of California laws. His appearance is not very judicial. He is in his shirt sleeves, with a hat considerably the worse for wear, a huge pair of Mexican spurs, with buckskin leggings, and of course, what no Californian travels without, revolver in his belt.”
Was Bishop’s revolver an 1851 Colt’s Navy or a Colt’s Dragoon? Gardiner doesn’t say but surely if it was carried in a belt it was one of two. California was a rough place back then.
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Bishop Creek,
The name rings bells all over but I can't remember why .... I'lll look it up tomorrow .... Thanks!
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Here is the trail gear that I use with my 1850s era California impression. My impression has been documented as an easterner that adopted some of the traits of Californio culture but is still a gringo nonetheless. It is also part of my Nicaragua Filibuster impression. The bag is buckskin with an original 1850's rubber button, bone-handled knife, Washington holster with roller-buckle belt, Colt 2nd generation "Navy Six", militia knapsack and custom plains rifle with silver-handled bowie knife. My congreve matches and packaged Colt rounds are ca. 1860s but the rest is predominantly 1850s.
-Dave
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Real nice Dave, real nice.
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I second James Hunt's opinion. VERY nice! Some of you gentlemen should wander on over to The American Plainsmen Society when you get a chance. You'd fit right in. Not to mention a discussion on California history from that period is sorely needed. (I hope this isn't considered shanghaiing; that's not what I had in mind.)
Caleb
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Thanks Caleb. That sounds like just my thing.
-Dave
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Bump for Wahkahchim
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Hey WWE
Here is my Copy of the original Main & Winchester Holster you post several month ago.
One word to the belt. I do not know who made this belt.... anyway, they do not tool the belts this way!!! never in the 1850 - 1860. This kind of craftools came much later, 1880´s. Normaly they use plain belts (several military belts) and carved, not tooled Holsters I will also post pics.
Will post some knifes of this time periode later, also as spurs.
have a great day
Andy Rombach
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Other holsters
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California style 1870 Holster, simple tools where used on this holster
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California style fighting knifes made by my selfe
Have fun
Andy Rombach
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Other fighting knifes
So long
Andy Rombach
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Another selfmade knifes
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Sothern California / north mexican spurs 1860
handmade by my selfe
Andy Rombach
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Reproduction of August Buermanns California style 1870 style spurs with 3 inch wheel
Andy Rombach
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Hey WWE
Here is my Copy of the original Main & Winchester Holster you post several month ago.
One word to the belt. I do not know who made this belt.... anyway, they do not tool the belts this way!!! never in the 1850 - 1860. This kind of craftools came much later, 1880´s. Normaly they use plain belts (several military belts) and carved, not tooled Holsters I will also post pics.
Will post some knifes of this time periode later, also as spurs.
have a great day
Andy Rombach
With all due respect Andy I made the belt and despite your statement to the contrary they did use stamping 1850-60 at times in California - I was fortunate enough when I lived in So Cal many years ago to inspect several private collections in the Santa Barbara area and stamped leather was part of most of those collections from as far back as the Spanish Colonial era. I've also had the pleasure to inspect several collections nearby me in Northern New Mexico that includes stamping - in fact the stamps that my neighbors the Navajo use for tooling silver, which dates back to at least the 1850's, were originally leather stamps adapted for stamping silver.:
While my stamping on the belt is admittedly not an exact copy of any original sit is inspired by some work (I seldom make exact copies anymore. After 30 years of doing it I prefer my own muse and now mostly only do historically inspired pieces) from that period such as this belt that dates from the 1850-60 period:
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/spanish/87_2.jpg)
In general carving tended to be more common in the early days as well as more or less plain belts, but there are plenty of exceptions. But then again I am not a re-enactor as such and overall I am not interested in just the common, but the entire "catalog" of historic artifacts and especially the esoteric. IMO neither "way" is better - justr different......
As for chaps being made from bark tan vs chrome: I agree depending on era - pre circa 1880 the majority of chaps would have been made from bark tan, but after that the use of chrome tanned increased until by the mid-1890's or so they became the most common.
And by the way Andy you do some VERY fine work sir........
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Hey ChuckBurrows
Thanks for the Informations. We can not know it all :-\
Anyway, the have tooled leather since the 1000 years bevor Jesus was born, and most of them use metall tools. It is not the Question of tooling, it is the question of the style of tooling. May be the old leathercrafters use Navajo siver tools, have never seen that :(
I have not seen much cartridge or gunbelts tooled in the 1850´s. Most of them where straight belts, most of the time only with a simple border line. Ore figural stitching. On Holsters they use knifes to cut out little lines, or use simpel leather tools, most of them where selfmade.
As I know the first stamping tools, as we know them, came out in the 1860.... may be you´ll know it better.
For the crome leather. Well, the have crome tanned leather since 1865 - 1867, and some saddlerys use them on chaps as well. I does not use it for my chaps. Most of the well known Companys use the natural tanned stuff. R.T. Frazier use crome Lather for chaps since 1895, mostly on batwings, sometimes on shotguns. H.H. Heiser and C.P. Shipley use crome tanned stuff as well on the havy rodeo and working chaps since ca. 1910. Many saddle Companys use the chrome stuff for saddlestrings, because it was much more stronger (sorry, dont know the right word) than natural tanned straps and strings...
No Question, if you do no reproductions it is up to you what leather you use and which stams you use. The main thing is that the customers love it!!! Andyway you also do great job.
Have a wonderfull day
Andy Rombach
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Bump!!
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Update,
I have so far gotten the Claveras, Jacket and tie ...
I have a gun-that-never-was: a ASM.44 CAL. '51 Colt ... a slim Jim holster for it and a correct belt ...
Andy Rorbach was kind enough to sell me a nice set of spurs with horizontal spurs that can be worn with the set of Justin Ropers that I have ,,, and I will make/beg/borrow or steal to make some buckleless (i.e. leather) spur straps before reenactment season (by next spring)> I still have not recieved the Botas, and hope to make them by spring ...
I just have these few projects to do before I start on these ...*S*
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Update,
I have so far gotten the Calveras, Jacket and tie ...
I have a gun-that-never-was: a ASM.44 CAL. '51 Colt ... a slim Jim holster for it and a correct belt ...
Andy Rorbach was kind enough to sell me a nice set of spurs with horizontal spurs that can be worn with the set of Justin Ropers that I have ,,, and I will make/beg/borrow or steal to make some buckleless (i.e. leather) spur straps before reenactment season (by next spring)> I still have not received the Botas, and hope to make them by spring ...
I just have these few projects to do before I start on these ...*S*
Update # 2:
I am pretty much where I left offf ... working on other projects ...
I now have a Cap N Ball Lyman Plains pistol ...
And here is an old shot of the Californio look ... circa 1850-1860:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/CalifornioProfile.jpg)
Here is my new (to me ) Lyman Plains Pistol;
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/LymanPlainsPistol.jpg)
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Good stuff, pard!
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Thanks,
I only wish my humble, broken Spanish was much better: The audience that I really want to 'tag' is young Hispanics, most have been given no clue as to early California History and how much they have to be proud of ...
TTFN,
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Wadd, there is a lot of archaeological evidence of US surplus (mostly mex war vintage) arms and accouterments being sold in California during the gold rush but the reliable old hunting pouch is, in my opinion, the best bet for the following reasons.
1. Most military reenactors carry their military traps as "surplus" in their civilian impression also. Since it is over represented, I like to give the nod to civilian apparel.
2. A civilian hunting bag is easy to work with. It carries my powder flask and bullet bag on the trail easily enough. When I am stalking or firing repeated shots, the bag and flask are in my shirt of coat pocket for easy access. I have greased patches in my stock and dry patches in my pocket.
3. I have a capper on a thong attached to my bag or (with firelock) I prime from my powder measure. (I rarely carry a priming horn when carrying 3F in my horn)
For leathers, I recommend a California holster, hunting bag, belt, & sheath knife. Keep it simple and elegant.
-Dave
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Tsalgidave,
I have two distinct characters that I portray, about 20-30 years apart ...
The first is a Californio from the 1830s-1840s (I have given up on an 1850s Californio ... they were not to trying to 'fit in as they were in 1850 the Californio Style was more 'static'.
I have a Lyman Plains Pistol and Pedersoli Scout, both in .50 Cal, that seems more realistic ... but I think I have to pick up a Mexican style saber ...
It seems that Californios did not wear boots but more of a brogan ... although it does not have the square toe that was extant at the time, The closest that I have found is a pair of Justin Ropers sans tongues. I have also gotten some hard to find straight 'Shanks that will work with a low heel ... a copy of an old Buerman design ... not actual but close ... Now I have to make some buckleless spur straps and then fabricate some Botas and I will be set .... I hope to emulate the Berellessa Family before Fremont and Kit Carson had their effect on them ....
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Richard Henry Dana documents the sale of US-made shoes to the Californios in large numbers so an 1830-40s-era work shoe with California spurs and botas de talon are spot-on accurate. For 1830's-40's weaponry, I'd get a period hangar with provenance of importation to California or have a blacksmith replicate one based of photography/paintings. Typical firepower would not likely include a pistol but rather a plain eastern rifle or fowler (flintlock). Californios were not known for their leather working quality. Most of the finely made Californio leather items are believed to have come from either Mexico or South America and their industrial made goods were imported from the US and Europe. You could carry an old surplus musket from the Napoleonic/Pre Napoleonic era, likely of Spanish, English or even Russian design.
I can't wait to see what you end up with Wadd. Sounds like you have a great project going and have really made some strides with it.
-Dave
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Tsalgidave.
Here is the Lyman Plains pistol ... a stock shot I got from the Lyman Website:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/LymanPlainsPistol.jpg)
Same with the Pedersoli Scout (my camera is kinda fuzzy):
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/PedersoliScout.gif)
These are pics of the Bridger Bag from October Country:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/PossiblesBagFrontLeft.jpg)
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/BridgerBagUnfinishedRear.jpg)
These are very similar to the ones I got for the Justins ....
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/CalifornioSpurs.jpg)
These are a pic from the internet of the Justin Ropers:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/CalifornioSpurs.jpg)
Here is a pic with the bag in Action ... doing the Squatter's Riots last summer:
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/WellsI.jpg)
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Hello everyone, this is my first post; I came across this thread while researching about the typical costumes Mexicans wore in the 19th century, specially the Charros/rancheros and hacendados (land owners). I wanted to make my own vaquero costume or possibly buy one; I am doing some historical work here in Texas about the original cowboy, i.e., the Mexican cowboy and I wanted to look the part. I searched for paintings that might depict Mexicans of that era to give me some idea of how they dressed. I also went to some San Antonio charro shops but they only sold post 1800's charro suits and I want the pre 1800's suits.
While searching I befriended a Mexican man from Monterrey, who told me to search for "chinaco ranchero" or "traje chinaco," and told me the names of a few painters/artists from the era who depicted Mexican life in the 19th century. Well the info was great and I was able to find some Flickr groups/sets that specialized in Mexican cowboy culture: http://www.flickr.com/groups/927225@N20/
My problem, though, is that I need some info on how to make my own suit based on those pictures or find a place where I can buy the suit exactly as it is portrayed in those pictures. I found an online Charro store from Mexico where they make them the traditional way by hand, but they only ship withing Mexico
Here are some pictures I found in that Flickr group:
"Ataque a la Diligencia" from mid 1850's. Just outside Mexico City
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5443/9502512629_66afb17fce.jpg)
"Asalto a Diligencia" by Manuel Serrano, circa 1855
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7048/7055134135_1ee18fc184.jpg)
"Portal del Coliseo Viejo" from Casimiro Castro y J. Campillo's "Trajes Mexicanos" book 1855-1856.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7038/6854096153_579922a39a.jpg)
A lancer fighting a French Zouave during the French invasion of Mexico in the 1860's
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3465/3216997386_ccc061c9c1_z.jpg)
El Ranchero from the book ”Los Mexicanos Pintados por si Mismos” from 1842
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3278/3068825446_c913fd7cc8.jpg)
Just killed a Frenchman or gringo
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4100/4881833991_049b8fda64.jpg)
My friend also gave the name of a few Mexican movies that depict the era. I was only able to find 5 of them on Youtube. i dont understand Spanish very well, but they show how it was back then
"El ahijado de la Muerte" set in late 1840's early 1850's (scroll to 0:28)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y01m5Zv841Q[/youtube]
"Bugambilia" set in the 1860's
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UERz3IvsT3U[/youtube]
"La Feria de las Flores" set in 1852 (check minute 13:00 if you dont want to watch the whole thing)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqC-416ST8Y[/youtube]
"Camino de Sacramento" set in the early to mid 1840's (scroll to minute 4:06)
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyjJWgLGDro[/youtube]
"Historia de un gran amor" set in the late 1830's
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5q8_ypu7go[/youtube]
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. . .I'm thinking that a person might have carried a small tin in a pocket with some paper cartridges, common at that time . . .
A little nit-picking, paper cartridges were made up with conical balls . . . the '51 Colt doesn't have enough clearance to allow for loading other than a round ball, much less a conical ball with a paper cartridge attached . . .
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A little nit-picking, paper cartridges were made up with conical balls . . . the '51 Colt doesn't have enough clearance to allow for loading other than a round ball, much less a conical ball with a paper cartridge attached . . .
Every 1851 Colt I have seen accepts paper cartridges with a conical ball attached. Colt issued a two cavity bullet mold (round ball and conical) with every pistol sold. Colt produced envelope (paper) cartridges for most of their percussion revolvers. In 1851 the army bought 393,304 paper cartridges for use and the soldiers preferred them over loading with a flask.
Ken
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Maybe I got my head up where it's dark and hard to breathe ? I have a couple of Uberti '61 navies that take a paper cartridge with a conical ball jes' fine, plenty of clearance under the ram. I have not been able to manage to get a conical ball loaded in the Colt 2nd gen. '51 Navies I have, much less with a paper cartridge attached. I'd appreciate some tips, sincerely !!
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I've heard those Californio jackets wore like iron. What were the originals made of? Wool? Wool and cotton?
Also are there any photos of original 19th century examples?
Skeet
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Maybe I got my head up where it's dark and hard to breathe ? I have a couple of Uberti '61 navies that take a paper cartridge with a conical ball jes' fine, plenty of clearance under the ram. I have not been able to manage to get a conical ball loaded in the Colt 2nd gen. '51 Navies I have, much less with a paper cartridge attached. I'd appreciate some tips, sincerely !!
Ah My Good Collie -
No, you are not sufferring from a cranial inversion. What you are experiencing is one of the problems with Replicas vs Originals.
Most of the 1851 Replicas do not have sufficient space for a conical, and amongst the common mods for "more better historicity" is to open up the clearance.
yhs
prof marvel
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Sorry to resurrect a zombie thread here, but I’m pretty new to the CAS thing.
I’m building a persona based on my actual Californio ancestors, and this thread has been massively illuminating
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This is a photo I’ve always loved, as it shows some actual ancestors of mine, the Lugo family of Southern California, though this was taken after they has sold off or lost most of their ranchos
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Mickey,
That picture is awsome. What a great heritage to portray.
Dave
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This is a photo I’ve always loved, as it shows some actual ancestors of mine, the Lugo family of Southern California, though this was taken after they has sold off or lost most of their ranchos
That is a great legacy you have there. The Lugo family played such a huge role in the development of Southern California. I think of Horace Bell's account of meeting "Old Man Lugo".
"Soon after my arrival at the Angels it was my good fortune to visit the home ranch of possibly the most , eminent Spaniard in California, Don Antonio Maria Lugo, by the Spaniards designated as "El viejo Lugo," by the Americans as " Old man Lugo," the patriarch of the numerous Lugo family, once so rich, powerful and influential. Don Antonio Maria Lugo was eminent, not as a politician or as a man of learning, but as a man of princely possessions, of great generosity and unblemished honor. To be a kinsman of old man Lugo, in the remotest degree, was an assurance of an ample start in lands and cattle with which to commence the battle of life. To give the reader an idea of his great importance, it was always said, and I believe truthfully, that old man Lugo could ride from San Diego to Sonoma, a distance of seven hundred miles, sleep every night on his own land, change horses every day from his own herds, and eat beef slaughtered from his own cattle on the entire journey. As a man of vast possessions, of unbounded generosity and strict integrity, old man Lugo was without a peer on the whole California coast."
Bell eulogized him in later accounts as well.
-Dave