Got the Belgian Spencer

Started by John Brooder, October 14, 2024, 03:55:50 PM

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John Brooder

What a beautiful piece of work!  Made by Falisse & Trapmann for Brazilian cavalry in 1873 and converted by unknown, possibly the factory, to centerfire in 1877 according to what I have read..  Serial numbers matching breach block, carrier block, cocking handle, forend ring, barrel on bottom, receiver on front, butt plate, forend wood, tubular magazine and handle with both Belgian and Brazilian proof marks.  Looks all original.  Sorry about the photos.





"It's Good to be the King"

John Brooder







There re many more photos so if there is something that you want to see please let me know.  As far as the barrel twist, I have misplace my rifle cleaning rod and cannot provide that at this time.  The bore looks pretty clean but I haven't given it a good



Thank you for looking. 
"It's Good to be the King"

El Supremo

Thanks, John:
Lucky you.
More photo's please.
Will standby on twist.
What related stuff are you seeking, please?
Smiles,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

John Brooder

Kevin, Thanks! The only thing that I would love to find is a Brazilian, Belgian or other period made 56-50 center fire cartridge but they appear to be rare as hen's teeth.









"It's Good to be the King"

John Brooder

"It's Good to be the King"

John Brooder

Used a 6-inch pistol cleaning rod with a bearing in the handle and a jag with patch to measure twist and it made a 1/4 turn in 6-inches.  Did this 5 times and it was a 1/4-turn each time.  Does this equal 24:1 twist or are my complete lack of math skills coming back to haunt me.
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El Supremo

Thanks, John:
Your 4X6 twist at 24" helps.

"HERBERT" a SSS Member, posted a while ago that he owned a Belgian Spencer with 24" twist, and that it shot well with 350-380gr. bullets.

Marcot shows a French rimfire Spencer cartridge, but not a center-fire cartridge. I will ask a friend in Maine who sees Spencer cartridges at gun shows to help. If you have a photo of one, please add it to your Thread. Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

El Supremo

Hello, John:

More on cartridge:

Searched the Internet for Belgian and Brazilian 56-50 cartridges. A website popped: WWW.Munitions.org.
Using its search box, two vintage centerfire cartridge photo's are presented. I emailed them, since I cannot Post here via my DROID cell.  Perhaps, please, you can add them to this Thread. Maybe someone will share more about them and IF any might be available.

Also, your much appreciated photo's do not  show a blade extractor. Maybe the Lane version is used. 

The photo's appear to show cases that might be duplicated with modern ones. I can send you some 56-50 centerfire cases to test fit.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

John Brooder

Thanks for the information Kevin!  I'd love to get ahold of a fresh 56-50 centerfire case.  I am happy to pay for one.
As far as the extractor, see the photos below.  I don't know Spencer's that well yet but there is a blade that slides along the inside of the receiver.  It is smaller/shorter than the one in my 1860.



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El Supremo

Big help, John:

I noticed a dark line on the inside of the action in a photo. Your latest photo seems to show the shorter blade, spring assisted version, not the Lane that rests at 6:00 relative to the chamber.

Thanks for your PM'd contact info.  I sent some cases, etc for test fitting. They have a lightly wider rim OD and should extract better vs. STARLINE's with narrower rim OD. I can supply cast bullets to simplify your process.

My next pkg will include some bullets to use for measuring the bore's groove and land diameters.  I see .516" groove and .500" land OD's in 1865 Models, but have no info on the Belgian ones.  It's simple to gently drive a slightly oversized slug into the muzzle for preliminary dimensions. If you have no measuring tools, I can do it if you return the slugs to me. 

Your Belgian Spencer presents a great opportunity to gather more
Info that is not in Marcot. Perhaps you can share:
1. Is the firing pin spring loaded so it retracts below the block face before the block is lowered?
2. What are the thicknesses of the receiver at the top, front and above the lever?  These vary with other Spencer 56-50 models.
3. Please try to post a close-up, sharp photo through the buttplate opening that shows the butt end of the outer magazine tube.
4. Oh, what is the approx. length of the chamber?  Another Belgian Spencer seems, from.an Internet Auction site, to be converted to 50-90. I am not sure how a much longer 50-90 could be even single loaed. Maybe the auction house is mistaken.

Many thanks, John.

El Supremo/Kevin Tinny
Pay attention to that soft voice in your head.

John Brooder

1. Is the firing pin spring loaded so it retracts below the block face before the block is lowered? 
I don't think so but I don't know how to check this?

2. What are the thicknesses of the receiver at the top, front and above the lever?  These vary with other Spencer 56-50 models.
Top of  receiver 1.159"
Front of receiver 1.173"
Above the lever  1.013"
- Please note these were taken with a dial caliper - i have had so-so accuracy with these -I have a digital in a box somewhere that I will try to find

3. Please try to post a close-up, sharp photo through the buttplate opening that shows the butt end of the outer magazine tube. 
See photo



4. Oh, what is the approx. length of the chamber? 
1.16" but it is very approximate - see photo below



Another Belgian Spencer seems, from.an Internet Auction site, to be converted to 50-90. I am not sure how a much longer 50-90 could be even single loaed. Maybe the auction house is mistaken.
See photo above. I don't see how a 50-90 fits
"It's Good to be the King"

DJ

I'm also curious about the firing pin.  It doesn't appear to have a retaining screw on the side, and from the rear it appears to be dovetailed into the block.  Does it just slide back a little and then lift out?

As for whether it is spring-loaded, if there's a working spring, when the action is open, you should be able to slide the firing pin forward, and it would slide back when you release it.  From photo #4 (top of open action) it appears that the firing pin is in the forward position, which suggests no spring, or at least a spring that isn't working.

Liking the detailed photos.

--DJ

John Brooder

Please excuse my terminology.  I haven't learned to speak Spencer fluently yet.  You are correct that the there is no retaining screw on the flat firing pin on the side of the breach block but I don't know how you remove it?  It does not just lift out unless this one is stuck.  The rest of the round pin that is within the block and strikes the centerfire cartridge does not appear to have a spring associate with it.  If you lever the action vigorously the pin falls back into the block.  If you lever it slowly it stays protruding until it is fully open.  That is the best I can describe it. If you have additional questions, I will try to answer them.
"It's Good to be the King"

matt45

Were these manufactured from scratch, or did they start with Spencers imported into Belgium. All the serial #'s tell me they were hand-fitted.

John Brooder

Matt, Good question!  Hopefully others with more knowledge will reply.  What little I know is that Marcot 1983:157-158 calls them copies but admits little is known.  I think that I read somewhere that someone has argued they were made with old Spencer machinery but I cannot find the reference at the moment.  Howsoever they were manufactured, these Spencers are very well made. Thanks for the reply.
"It's Good to be the King"

John Brooder

Thanks to Kevin/El Supremo, I was able to place a dummy round into the chamber (it fit like glove) and eject it.  Smooth as silk.  I also put 3 dummy rounds in the mag tube and cycled the action.  Again, wonderfully smooth with ejections that tossed the round out of the breach. And was able to drive a lead fish weight through the bore and got average of 0.5155 groove and 0.496 land. Reading about taking it apart to clean now.
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I don't know anything about Spencer rifles, but I am enjoying the posts. Thanks.
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John Brooder

Thanks Lucky! 

More.  I finally took the lock plate off - the internals look different from the other Belgian that I have seen.  The buggered screws are not my doing.








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