I want to load reduced power charge loads in 30-06 (bolt action) and wonder is fillers are recommended as the charge weights of the powder are listed in the teens. What works for the folks actually shooting the events?
Also, wouldn't hurt my feelings if you share your secret family recipe for a sub 1,400 fPS lead bullet load that will do the job at 40 yards and under.

No filler needed with Trail boss
I see sub 1400fps with 165 gr. lead hy-tec bullet.
Start at 70% and get to 80% case.
03 Springfield

The good news is Trail boss is available; the bad news is its bit pricy

   Hey There Ramblin 

Just a quick little "Heads Up."  The more common "fillers" folks think of for light loads are extremely dangerous with Smokeless Powders.  Often, the filler material absorbs the moisture (yes, Agness, there is moisture in smokeless) from the propellant, congeals, and the propellant hardens as well creating an obstruction.  Chamber pressure goes through the roof.  Literally.

There are those whom recommend "Backer Rod."  I have personally never tried it.  YMMV

Thanks for the info, Major 2.
I still have 1/2 pound of Trail Boss from 2020 ($28.00 label on bottle) that I can use. I previously bought 170 Gr Gas Checked cast coated bullets from Quality Cast. Quality Cast is now closed so I'll need a new source for bullets moving forward. Where are you getting your 165 gr. lead hy-tec bullets?

Quote from: Ramblin Ron on November 14, 2025, 12:18:22 PM165 gr. lead hy-tec bullets

 Missouri Bullet Co.  I think they are  #1  Whitetail.
Both Red & Black bullets are the same just different color coating.  I use these in my 03
Start with 11.5 grains of Trail boss settle around 12-12.1
I find accurate enough @ 50 yards

FYI
The Bullets on the left 1st photo are192 grain (don't recall source)
are used in my 30/40 Krag same bullets, though one is Gas Check.
Not realty needed as GC  I'm shooting my gun @ 1235- 1260 FPS

Back in the 80's or so a writer/shooter for The American Rifleman by the name of C.E. Harris published an article in the AR called "The Load" in which he used a universal 13.0 grain load of Red Dot powder using cast lead bullets in a number of MILSURP rifles. Having a collection of MILSURP's and being a caster and loader I loaded up a good number of rounds using 13.0 grains of Red Dot and hard cast bullets. Caliber's and rifles used and shot were: 30/06 US 03 Springfields (Both A1 and A3), US 30/06 WW1 1917 Eddystone Enfield, WW2 British SMLE .303 Enfield's, WW2 7.62x54 Russian Mosin Nagans, and WW2 8mm German Mausers. All of the bullets were from Lee molds using gas checks.

 (Edit note)-I used gas checks as the molds I was using were designed as such. I've heard of reloaders not using them when using sub velocity loadings, but that leaves somewhat of a bullet base not square as in cast bullets designed not needing GS's, resulting in poor sealing of gas at the bullet base. The velocities 13.0 grains of Red Dot can produce will be in the 1300-1500 fps anyway which can produce leading with softer lead. A home cast lead bullet with a GS is way cheaper than any jacketed bullet anyway, esp at todays pricing.  FWIW I've  used Unique powder also in my rifles cast lead bullet sub-velocity loadings. Used info from a published popular magazine about doing so some 10-12 years ago. Worked OK, but didn't do as much work with it as I did with Red Dot. Several other powders were in the magazine issue to use for the sub-cast loading, but never tried them. I've used Trail Boss  in 45 Colt some but never in anything else.

All of the loadings for all of the different calibers were pretty accurate at 100 yards or less, nothing 1"MOA, but fun shooters at water filled milk jugs and steel cans, big bean cans, and various other this and that. Fairly accurate and all pleasant to shoot. No shoulder killer's, fun pleasant loadings to shoot. No problem with powder charges being lite up. They're not intended to be 1"MOA or less loadings, but alot of the groups at  times were pretty impressive.

Alot of the shooting I did with them were shot in wandering around a large family pasture with timber and a river running through it. Glorified woods walk, shots taken at ranges from 25 yards to 200 alot off hand with no rest. Fun and enjoyable shooting.

I did experiment using loadings of Red Dot between 12.0 and 14.0 grains of Red Dot. The loadings under 13.0 grains showed some loss of accuracy, loads between 13 and 14.0 grains had a little more oomph but no greater accuracy. I still load and shoot some of these 13.0 grain loadings in the various calibers when not wanting to have to put up with all of the recoil and trying to get jacketed bullet accuracy out of these old girls. Can enjoy  the rifles without being beat to death, can do several hours with them and not wish I had quit earlier. Look up 'The Load' or 13.0 grain Red Dot rifle loadings. The info is on the web.

Indeed Sir    Posted here as a curtesy 

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

© 2014 - Ed Harris

Revised Sept. 27, 2007

My success in economizing by using up leftovers of misc. shotshell powder changed my approach to hand loading.  About 15 years ago I was given an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot from the estate of the late Vincent Marino,  a fellow gun club member who was an active trap and skeet shooter. I no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?"

At the time my shooting was now mostly NRA-style high-power rifle, but using cast bullets in WWII militaries.  I was working at the time with a Winchester M1917 Enfield and a Smith-Corona M1903A3, both .30-'06s, and I also had a Long Branch No.4 MkII* in .303 and a Finnish M28/30 in 7.62x54R.  I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet.  Powder used to be cheap, but then was $15/lb. (and is closer to $25 today! - or more), so cost is a factor in component choice. 

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.

Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight!

Red Dot is bulky compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addressed my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot.  We found this a good starting point in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger. "The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:

1.      The case must be LARGER than the .30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi. The No. 4 Enfield in .303 Brit is OK, the 1896 Krag is not! 

2.      The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3.      The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4.      Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gas checked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plain based ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .303 British, 7.65 Argentine in the '98 actions (not the 1891 please), .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield.

Since the article originally appeared I have heard from people who successfully used it in the 8mm Mauser, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .444 Marlin and .458 Winchester.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever hand loading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones.

I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load.

"The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges.  Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.  Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second. My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 5 lbs. of backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:20 tin/lead in medium bores over .30 cal. and larger. "The Load" drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get a nice mushroom, without fragmenting.

These cast loads out-penetrate factory .30-30 soft points, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.

The Load" works equally well with jacketed bullets, and is a good way to shoot up those old pulled military ball bullets you have lying around. Jacketed bullets give somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for cheap 200-yd. NMC bolt gun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice in the Garand as well.

These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boat tail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 today in 2007 costs 15 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to still find new powder at $21/lb.) By  substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot you get 538 rounds per pound at a realistic cost of 4-1/2 cents assuming you pay $25 per pound at retail.  Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.  It is still possible to get an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot for around $100 if you shop around.  Or just become an old vulture and hang around waiting for an old trap shooter to die and do his widow a favor!

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the bolt gun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders. If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine soft point bullet, which is designed for somewhat higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de grâce", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards!

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get a lot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!

Last edited on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 11:20 am by Ed Harris

BTW..
There is or was a similar article for TRAIL BOSS
complete with a graph for various 30cal. Milsurps.

I had it in file on my old laptop which went belly up. 
anyway, I can't seem to find it now on the internet.
There may be a link over on the Barricks Board.

When I began reduced loading for my Milsurps (my 1st one was French Berthier) I was rather fresh fish.
I did have some Red Dot, but Trail Boss was easily available.
I then also got a Krag and use Trail Boss exclusively,
Following suit for M1917 Eddystone, 03 Springfield, SMLE No. 1 Mk III*

The gist of the article was... Credit Pony Express

" While the website seems to be having problems, the gist of the article was, they used the same load(9gr) for several milsurp calibers in .30-8mm with all the same powder charge, with basically standard weight for the caliber bullets, with good results. So what you use for a Krag, can be used in .303, 7.62X54,30-06,7.62 Argentine, 8MM Mauser or Lebel, etc. I use 11.5 grains for most everything Military I load, except smaller ones like 6.5 Swede. Also, I just use 9gr in 30-30. Only one so far that didn't work was 8MM Mauser in a '98 Mauser with 225 gr cast, they keyholed. But the same load was great in a Commission rifle."

Thank you Major for posting Harris's 13 grain Red Dot article follow up. The original article had to be published in the Rifleman back in the 90's. I got so I started shooting more of the 13.0 Red Dot loads than I did in my stable of MILSURP's than using high velocity jacketed bullet loads. Less beating and still have the enjoyment of shooting the rifles. Never had a problem with bore leading.

 I still have the Harris AR magazine in the archives somewhere-probably the follow up article also, also the other magazine that was devoted to using lead bullets in a whole array of rifles. I'm a packrat for saving gun magazines. Have them in shop, wife kicked em out of the house years ago. Have AR back to the early 70's along with other major gun magazines with varying years. Have to look em up.

 Reading and posting in this thread has 'got me all riled up' to take out the Ol' military rifles and do some shooting. Have some ammo in 06 and 8mm loaded up in storage that needs to be fired, maybe do some more loadings, have around 3# of Red Dot cryin' to be shot. Only MILSURP's I've never used 'The Load' in are either of my M1 Grands as I figured there wasn't enough power generated by the load to work the action and a 30/40 Krag. The Krag came along after all of my work with the other rifles, just haven't got around to doing so with it but it is a 'been gonna' project.

Same here (Garand fodder) I got factory Sellier & Bellot Garand Safe factory at a gun show a while back
So, I don't load for it.

I do wish I could find the Trail Boss article again.
I have 2.5 lbs. of the stuff and 1 unopened  9oz bottle. + a parcel used 9 oz'er

I need to shoot mine again too

I bought around 750 rds of PCU 30/06 Garand ammo around 3 yrs ago, still shooting it besides my own 150 grain FMJ loads. I did load up 90 loads of hardcast Gas Check lead ammo for my Garands around a year ago. Ten each of three different powders, varying grains, not really reduced loads, just to see what cast loads would work if any. Still haven't shot em, wanted to see what works best. Figured if one or more of the powder loadings won't cycle the action, could be fired in a bolt action MILSURP.

I recall the article you are talking about using Trail Boss in reduced loads. I'll have to try and find, I'm sure it is in one of the many mags I have in the archives. Empty agriculture boxes that held two 2 1/2 gallons of various herbicide's and crop oil are great for storing magazines. Can get a pretty good stack of em in a box. Saved alot of them from when farming with my Dad and after that a cousin supplied me with what I wanted. Rarer now since alot of that weed killer is used and sold in large plastic barrels. Sad as hardly any farmers take the time to cultivate with row cultivators any more, too many acres to cover. Hate seeing all that junk going onto the ground.

I am currently using 10gr of 700X under a 160gr lead bullet in .30-06 for about 1400 fps.

Slim

Quote from: Silver Creek Slim on November 19, 2025, 09:25:03 PMI am currently using 10gr of 700X under a 160gr lead bullet in .30-06 for about 1400 fps.

Slim

I recall in that magazine I mentioned in one of my previous post's the use of 700X. I've never tried it in reduced rifle loads but did use it some back in the day loading 38 Spec wadcutter and 45 Colt cast loadings. Bought a pound of it once to try, but had enough inventory of other powders I never bought anymore. Didn't have a problem with 700X.

Quote from: Crow Choker on November 27, 2025, 07:55:27 AMI recall in that magazine I mentioned in one of my previous post's the use of 700X. I've never tried it in reduced rifle loads but did use it some back in the day loading 38 Spec wadcutter and 45 Colt cast loadings. Bought a pound of it once to try, but had enough inventory of other powders I never bought anymore. Didn't have a problem with 700X.

30-06 reduced loads listed here.
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Definitely read their methodology before you try any of the loads.
http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm


Use at your own discretion.

I have used Pet loads for reduced *30/06 ,303 Brit and 30/40 loads.
(* not for my Garand)
I also have one for my French Berthier all with Trail Boss

I had a Spanish 1916 Mauser that had been converted to 308
 but I sold it to a gent along with my dies.