Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => 1860 Henry => Topic started by: Tuolumne Lawman on September 22, 2018, 06:50:57 PM
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;D
Well, our illustrious moderator, Major 2 PMed me with a tip about a Henry for sale that I might be interested in. What amazes me is that just this week I learned I have a financial windfall coming, AND my wife came to me and insisted that the first thing I do is replace the Uberti Henry I was forced to sell! Of all the guns I had to sell, that was the one she hated to see me loose. (How did Major 2 know about the windfall?)
Well, the Henry is an original Navy Arms (Val Forgett) US made in New Jersey 1860 Henry from the 1970s! There were only a couple thousand made in the United States, before production was outsourced to Uberti in Italy. To me, this is the Holy Grail of centerfire replica 1860 Henry land! A deal has been struck, a deposit sent, and it will be coming my way soon. Wow! Thanks Major 2!
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Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!
It was like the great & Powerful Oz had spoken...
My Motto... "when Planets align ...."
I do believe in Henry's , I do believe in Henry's. I do, I do, I do, I do believe in Henry's, I do believe in Henry's, I do, I do, I do, I do!
To paraphrase a stolen Movie line ...eh Coffinmaker ?
Congrats
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GESUNDHEIT!! The planets aligned, The Great and Powerful OZ. Also Sprach Zarathustra!! Some days are just plain Diamonds. Some days you just have to ride the Valkyries.
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Wow, The more I dig into these early American made Henry rifles, the more excited I get. According to Andrew Bresnan of "The National Henry Rifle Company" (a Civil War reenacting group built around Henry rifles), there were around 3,000 of the Navy Arms, New Jersey manufactured Henries. Only 50 were .44 rimfire with the double firing strikers, and the rest were in .44-40. 1,000 of these were their "22" Carbine Model, which is what I think one of the ones Major 2 has. Bresnan had communicated with Val Forgett Jr. in the late 1990s to gather and verify information. Bresnan has been researching the Henry for 40 years, and is apparently writing a book.
They are truly different from the later Ubertis, and almost nothing is interchangeable. : lifters differ, trigger springs different, receivers use a second screw for take down like the later 1866 Uberti rifles, rather than the slide out side plates used by Uberti.
Here is an excerpt from his extensive series of wb pages on the Navy Arms Henry:
"Navy Arms manufactured the first reproduction Henry rifles. These were manufactured in the United States, not Italy. These are truly American made Henry rifles as were the originals which were produced by the New Haven Arms Company which later became Winchester Firearms. In an e-mail dated June 7, 1999 Val Forgett, president and founder of Navy Arms, confirmed this to me stating “yes the first Henrys were made in the United States-manufacturing was then moved to Italy by Uberti.” Navy Arms produced a limited edition of 50 Henry rifles marked .44 RF. These Henrys had the correct two-prong firing pin and were rim fire. I have been able to look at one of these Henrys. The owner of this Henry purchased a center-fire bolt and replaced the rim fire bolt and began shooting his with .44-40 ammunition and blanks. There was also another limited edition of 500 Henry rifles as well as a limited edition of 1000 Henry carbines with a 22 inch barrel. All of these were chambered for the .44-40 cartridge. I have been told by others that there were a couple of other limited edition runs of Henrys by Navy Arms. Navy Arms manufactured Henrys likely number less than 3000.
The Navy Arms Henrys are also different from the Uberti manufactured Henrys. The carriers will not interchange. The side plates of the Navy Arms Henry are held on by two screws while Uberti only uses one screw. The trigger spring on the Navy Arms is an internal two-prong trigger and safety spring while the Uberti Henry has an external trigger spring. The Navy Arms Henry does not have the magazine lock to prevent the magazine from just being twisted open and ruining the magazine spring. The Navy Arms Henry and the Uberti Henry are indeed two completely different guns."
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So don't go grinding too much on those unobtainable springs! :)
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Amen! I think the Henry will be stock, and for special occasions, mostly at the local match where the rifle round count is low. (the local environmentalists have all but shut down our range. They got an injunction preventing us from using steel targets!) Annual matches will see the 38-40 1866 getting more range time than the NJ Henry!
Wasn't there a discussion last year about another member having one of the New Jersey made NA Henry rifles? I looked but could not find the thread.
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Update, but sort of off topic.
I sent a deposit via paypal to the seller, and the payment was highjacked. When I hit send, his email was instantly replaced by one I never saw before, and the payment followed Not sure whether it was a malware in my computer using it as a back door into paypal, or my paypal account hacked. I have a claim opened with Paypal yo sort it out.
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yikes! good luck!
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Well, got the paypal debacle squared away, and he has the deposit. I just dropped his FFL at my FFL today so they can send him one to ship it to. Funds should go out this week.
This will not be a safe queen, even though it is rare. I'm not going to mess with anything, just keep it cleaned and well lubed. I'll probably just use it at our local matches. We only shoot 20-30 rounds each of pistol and rifle (because we can't shoot steel anymore because the leaf licking friends of the chipmunks got an injunction against us shooting steel, because it make lead dust!), We shoot clay pigeons and pop cans at 25 with the rifles, potatoes on a spike tree for shotguns, and fall down targets with 8"x8" blocks of wood taped to them to prevent splatter. We also shoot a round of cowboy trap.
For annual matches and the six stage monthly matches down in the valley, I'l mostly use the 38-40 1866 short rifle.
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Tree huggers ::)
What you need are some of these.... I use my CNC router to cut these from 1/2" High Density Polyethylene sheets
it does not splinter, crack and sorta heels after the round passes through.
I get 21 @ 16" from a 4'X8' sheet... and get a match or so from them before they are swiss cheese, cost is about $6 each.
They don't ring like steel but there is some what satisfying snap ::) spotters need to pay a bit more attention ….
but hey... it keeps the fruits & nuts happy ! well as happy as can be expected for the meddling twits !
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I love the concept of those PE targets! No splatter, but no "Ding!". Might be a bigger market for those than you think.
I see them varmint sized in the hardware stores already.
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Update, but sort of off topic.
I sent a deposit via paypal to the seller, and the payment was highjacked. When I hit send, his email was instantly replaced by one I never saw before, and the payment followed Not sure whether it was a malware in my computer using it as a back door into paypal, or my paypal account hacked. I have a claim opened with Paypal yo sort it out.
My Good TL -
firstly, I am following your aquisition
but secondly, did you figure out what happened with the paypal hijacK?
yhs
prof marvel
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Tree huggers ::)
What you need are some of these.... I use my CNC router to cut these from 1/2" High Density Polyethylene sheets
it does not splinter, crack and sorta heels after the round passes through.
I get 21 @ 16" from a 4'X8' sheet... and get a match or so from them before they are swiss cheese, cost is about $6 each.
They don't ring like steel but there is some what satisfying snap ::) spotters need to pay a bit more attention ….
but hey... it keeps the fruits & nuts happy ! well as happy as can be expected for the meddling twits !
My Dear Major -
would you kindly open another thread on this topic?
I am extremely interested .... and I bet others are too.
yhs
prof marvel
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PM sent
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Arghhhh! :P I hate waiting. Should be able to send the funds Wednesday or Thursday. While I am REALLY excited to get the original US made replica 1860 Henry, I am not giving up my 1866 short rifle in .38 WCF. It is so much faster to swing and line up. It is also deadly accurate, and slicker. I will probably save the 1860 for the local matches where the round count is low.
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It's on the way....then the 10 day Commiefornia hold.
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It arrived safe and sound at my LGS. The 10 day jail starts tomorrow, as I am waiting on my Mini-14 I got on Gun Broker to come in. It costs the same to do three guns as it does one.
Wow, it is gorgeous! The stock is American black walnut with an oil finish, instead of Uberti's red walnut with varnish. The front sight looks like period, a slightly rounded silver bump. I feels like the two originals I have handles in the past. It is NOT as beefy in the receiver as the Uberti, and the follower is smaller. The rear sight is an exact copy of the original, and only has a small, flush notch for the rear sight (when ladder folded down) instead of the taller one the Uberti has when the ladder is folded. The corners on the barrel and receiver are crisp and not polished down like the new Original Henry rifles are.
The only negatives are that it has a lever/trigger safety like an 1873, and the end of the barrel that rotates to load can be turned without the follower being pressed up the tube to the end. Serial number is 252A, do probably the 202nd Henry produced after the firt 50 in 44 rimfire. I cant wait.
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WAY KOOL!! Can't wait for the photos and range report ;D
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Went to the LGS and took some pics. Because I am going to be out of town when the 10 day Commiefornia jail is over it will be a couple weeks.
The Walnut stock:
(https://i.imgur.com/GIdJES6.jpg)
the front sight:
(https://i.imgur.com/1MadCMo.jpg)
The serial number and rear sight. It is 262A, not 252A like I thought. Notice the serial number is hand stamped! Also notice the fine machining on the rear sight!
(https://i.imgur.com/meX0UvX.jpg)
The lever safety. Also you can see the 1866 style sideplate screw. If shootingBP, it sure makes cleaning easier than the finger slicer side plates!
(https://i.imgur.com/kN4v364.jpg)
Side view of the receiver:
(https://i.imgur.com/rliPV56.jpg)
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That is a gorgeous henry, tuolumne. I really like the wood, looks way better than ubertis red stain.
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As a dedicated Henryista >>>>>
THAT is an outstanding find. Twer it mine, the only way you could pry it out of my hands would be with a CROWBAR!!! I am OFFICIALLY JELOUS!!
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I picked her up today! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
It is stiff as new, so pulled it apart to clean and lube it. It is dry as a bone inside, with traces of dried oil. and a slight hint of surface rust on some inside parts. I doubt if it has been lubed (or even fired) since it was new in 1976, 42 years ago! I am removing the lever safety with its truck spring heavy leaf spring (half of the trigger spring actuates to lever safety). I will keep it in a baggie. I am going to grease some stuff, but I decided not to polish any springs or anything, but keep it stock. I'll post some pics. later.
It is really sweet, and I think it will be a favorite CAS rifle.
More to come....
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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The carrier on this is BARELY big enough for the 44-40 and has a 1866 side cut! I know they made some 1866 in 38 special at about the same time as these (pre-Uberti),so maybe used the same carriers? Also, I know back then they had lots of original old gun parts. Maybe used original 1866 carries hogged out slightly to take the 44-40 round?
Another thing, the extractor is milled out of the same piece as the bolt. It is not flexible like the original Winchester 1873 type. Anyone know if the original Henry had a removable extractor?
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Most happy for you, a tad jealous too.
It conjures up fond memories of mine .... :)
Still glad I could help get you together with it
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Ah... you mention the 38 Cal. 66 ....I had one of those too....
I recall I traded for the 1866 about 1982 if memory serves .
it was an SRC, a sweet rifle...but I never :o disassembled it, never a issue either ...sold it in 88 ( same year I sold the NA Henry, which I bought back in 08 and got talked out of again in 16 ::) )
1988 was the year my Daughter was born , and the reason I felt I needed at the time to pad the coffers .
1988 was my pre-SASS entry era , the Henry had been for CW reenating .
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My good shooting pard, Hanging Judge Hemp, and I are going to a fun match on Sunday. It is an old style SASS match with smaller, farther targets, goofy lines in the shooting scenarios, and lots of props. Modeled after the way matches were 20 years ago. taking the New Jersey made Navy Arms Henry with me. Judging by what I found the tear down, it is unfired! Oh well, I don't own a firearm I won't shoot! It is six stages, though and I am bringing my .38 WCF 1866 short rifle too.
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I'd shoot it too.... Doubt you'll loose for the price you paid for it :)
Mine on the other hand was well used , no telling how many BP blanks were shot through it ( BTW my blanks were custom 444 Marlin brass shortened & neck down to feed ) and gaggle of 44/40 live rounds .
The bluing was well worn, and the only issue in all those years was a kinked magazine spring (because of the rotating muzzle has no catch which you already know about on yours )
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I'd shoot it too.... Doubt you'll loose for the price you paid for it :)
Mine on the other hand was well used , no telling how many BP blanks were shot through it ( BTW my blanks were custom 444 Marlin brass shortened & neck down to feed ) and gaggle of 44/40 live rounds .
The bluing was well worn, and the only issue in all those years was a kinked magazine spring (because of the rotating muzzle has no catch which you already know about on yours )
The two biggest tells that a NA Henry is US made and pre-Uberti are the 1866 side plate screw and no lock on the nose end of the magazine. My spring has no kinks, and the follower was in backwards.
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The two biggest tells that a NA Henry is US made and pre-Uberti are the 1866 side plate screw and no lock on the nose end of the magazine. My spring has no kinks, and the follower was in backwards.
follower was in backwards ? WOW you got the rarest of the rare... your gun shoots the other way ;)
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...the follower was in backwards.
Sounds like a "leader" instead of a follower. I've known more than a few "leaders" who "led" from the rear. Kind of backwards.
All joking aside, I get vicarious enjoyment from your reports about your new rifle. Thanks.
CC Griff
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Thanks! There is something special about owning this piece of history. According to my research, they only did 500 24" in 44-40, and 1,000 in the 22" carbine model. Knowing it was made by the New Haven Arms factory for Navy Arms adds an extra dimension. Even If I wasn't a CAS shooter, I would treasure this one.
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Another thing, the extractor is milled out of the same piece as the bolt. It is not flexible like the original Winchester 1873 type. Anyone know if the original Henry had a removable extractor?
You sure it doesn't just LOOK like it's milled out of the same piece as the bolt? I just can't see how that would work at all. The bolt loads the cartridge in a straight line, so the extractor HAS to be able to spring over the rim, doesn't it?
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(https://i.imgur.com/dqQyfHg.jpg)
Me and the new Navy Arms Henry at the old time type match today! Targets and scenarios like they were when SASS started. 25 yard rifle target, 10-12 yard pistol target, and NONE were the popular 24"x24" plates. You actually had to aim. I shot clean with the Henry, except the last darn shot of the match! LOL. Boy this sucker is tight. It was unfired until today. The pistols are an 8" barreled Cimarron 1860 Type II Richards Conversion in .45, and a Pietta 1851 .44 Caliber with a 4 3/4" barrel, and a Kirst gated Konverter in .45, with Kirst ejector rod assembly.
Also, on closer inspection, I believe the 1860 does have a separate extractor, not milled as part of the bolt. Fit is SO tight and close, it looked like one piece.
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TRUELY OUTSTANDING!! ;D
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Lookin' pretty svelte there, Mr. Lawman :)
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I blame myself ;D ;D
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LOL! Those are my Sunday goin' to meeting" duds. I figured since it was my first date with an elegant lady (the 1860), I ought to dress accordingly!
Me in my "Working Duds" with my prior Henry
(https://i.imgur.com/1OZNgHV.jpg)
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Now I have to load up more 44-40. I have 250 rounds of 38-40 for the 1866, but just one box of .44 WCF left after Sundays match. The Henry loved my load of 7.0 grains Trail Boss with a .428 Bear Creek or Missouri Bullet company 200 grainer. That load, not coincidently, gives me 1120 fps!!! Imagine that, the same velocity and bullet weight of the original .44 Flat rimfire. It is way below "the full case to base of bullet being maximum" alternative of Hodgdon. They said fill the case, and then figure 70% for a starting load. This is actually only about 85%.
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My wife and I were having a lazy day today, so we decided to do a Lonesome Dove and Return to Lonesome Dove marathon on DVD. It the scene where they take on Jake Spoon and the rustlers, you get a brief close up of the receiver of Cpt. Call's Henry. It clearly had the 1866 type side plate takedown screw, meaning it was an early Navy Arms manufactures Henry like mine. Not too surprising, as in 1987 when they were filming it, the Uberti made 1860s were not too common either. I have to confess that seeing Gus and Call with their Henry rifles when Lonesome Dove when it first came out caused me to want a Henry when I started in SASS in 1994.
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They did a pretty good job with guns and gear for the most part. In both movies, there were number of cartridge conversions (both Remington and Colts). Probably real ones, though maybe Millingtons or someone else's/
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Kenny Howell
He also did the guns for Sellick's "Last Stand & Saber River" & "Crossfire Trail" ( including the Evans ).
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Kenny Howell
He also did the guns for Sellick's "Last Stand & Saber River" & "Crossfire Trail" ( including the Evans ).
Yep, that's it. His name escaped me. Thanks.
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I own one of the Saber River guns. not the Selleck pieces though, there were 3 made in that comfig
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I own one of the Saber River guns. not the Selleck pieces though there were 3 made in that comfig
What one do you have?
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Type 1 Richards , blued & walnut
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Greetings!
BRAVO! Very happy for You! That's a piece of Henry History!
M.T.Marfield
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Update: Still using the Navy Arms original Henry as a main match rifle. Love it! It has so much class. I toyed briefly with getting a Marlin 44-40 and doing a later persona but just can't leave my Henry behind. Of course if I found a screaming deal on a Century Limited Marlin 44-40, I would be tempted to have it also.
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a coupla years ago I picked up a NIB circa 1989 Marlin Classic Limited 32-20.
It was unfired and precisely the caliber I wanted and what I was looking for.
I do have to say the Century Limited Marlin in 44/40 , case & engraved is a BEAUTY , Friend of mind just got ascreaming deal on one at the NCOWS convention....The Bucket list continues.
Glad you came to your senses and will keep the Henry :)