Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => 1911 & Wild Bunch Shooting => Topic started by: Dusty Boddams on August 25, 2017, 07:49:58 AM
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Official start date 1-1-18. Per Happy Jack. So get ready for an exciting 2018 in wild bunch! Dusty Boddams
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Nobody has anything to say so I'll break the deafening silence. Please don't get me wrong, I like Traditional WB. Like the guns, the gear and the uniforms. This however sounds even more like ipsc in cowboy boots than Modern WB IS. 7 rounds in a mag looks like a spotters headache and a definite increase in difficulty to the average SASS shooter who without the 5 rd mag/ 5 target order to help keep a 20 plus round order of engagement straight in his head is going to have problems. We ain't getting any younger and this imo is going to make it harder. This won't affect the A shooters as they already shoot ipsc and it actually makes their life much easier but to a SASS shooter who competes with SAs 3 weekends a month and a 1911 the other weekend not so much. Time will tell, I might be full of buffalo chips but don't think that I like this 'improvement'.
As an afterthought. You know those great big cowboy hats with those big brims really get in the way, slow me down something fierce, maybe the WB Committee will allow smaller brims on just the front part style'o cowboy hats next year too. Couple of conchos on the brim, a horsehair braid and a Montana peak! Shooter ready. Beep!
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I've always seen 5 rounds in the magazine as sort of Oxymoron. 5 round magazines has always made WB nothing more than CAS with a 1911. Of course, I have real deep Heartburn with what SASS has done to Wild Bunch anyway so it actually made some sense that SASS would limit magazine capacity along with screwing up everything else.
It's sort of a "What Took Ya Sol Long" sort of thing. Trying to figure out why that magazine thing is so Long?? Maybe we should put more rounds innit?? Who'd a thought. Novel concept ... that.
Time to clean and oil up my Broom Handle yet?? Thought not..
B. Ed, Think you've got a pretty valid stand too. 35 round pistol stage be fun to keep track of. No it wouldn't.
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WB is getting more like the GAF. ;)
Slim
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Wild bunch is not part of my old west.
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... that's because it ain't Cowboy - it's Mexican Revolution. The Cowboy era was gone by then.
Anyone who can count to 5 can count to 7, at least he/she oughta be able to.
I haven't seen the rule change. Does it men that you get more targets to shoot at or more rds to fire at the usual number?
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Coffinmaker, I was thinking about this as I drove 2 hrs to my clubs monthly match today. It could work if the match creator used 4 and 7 target arrays rather than 3 and 5 like we use now in sass. 4 targets could be a nevada sweep or multiples of and the 7 would be just a sweep but again multiples would work but get real complicated ie a triple tap sweep of the 7 tgts.??? Still think it'll be a spotters nightmare. Just thinking out loud. Next thing they'll want to paint the steel between shooters.
What'd you think of my hat idea?
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O. O. O. O.
1 2. 3 4
7 6. 5.
Continuous Nevada sweep
21 or 28 rounds
Start on #1 each mag
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O. O. O. O.
1 2. 3. 4
5 6. 7
Sweep but not continuous
Start #1 each mag
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O. O. O. O. O.
1 2. 3 4. 5
7 6
Nevada sweep
Start on #1 each mag
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O. O. O. O. O.
1 3. 5. 4. 2
6 7
Outside to center
Start on #1 each mag
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O. O. O. O. O.
4 3. 1. 2. 5
7 6
Center to outside
Start on center each mag.
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O. O. O.
1 2. 3
5 4
6 7
Nevada sweep
Start on #1 and end on 3
With each mag
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O. O. O.
4 1 2
3
5 6
7
Nevada sweep start and end on center each mag.
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These were written and well thought out sweeps that are simple and shows that 7 rounds isn't more complicated it's just more shooting and just to be clear more is good! These were written by HooDoo Brown and pardon the pun but I think he did a bang up job! Good stuff! Dusty Boddams
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I might, I said might, have to amend my initial post, Dusty. I do like your post. But, throw in a miss or two, a malfunction or two with a double tap of these sweeps and lost you are. I like what Matthew McConaughey said on Colbert a while back "Found myself right where I left me." We've got 4 months to practice getting lost and found.
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B.E., it's going to be a little different and interesting that's for sure. I don't really see a spotter problem if folks are paying attention. The biggest issue I think is going to be non intentional tactical reloads :o and movement with the slide forward for a big ole stage DQ until shooters are conditioned to 7 round mags. We shot a super stage yesterday that covered 100' movement. 10 shotgun targets with 4 flipped birds 6 reactionary and 40 rounds pistol with no dumps or double taps. For a total of 50 rounds. Truly put the wild in wild bunch! Our big state sass WB match is coming up nov. 4-5 so I don't know if the match director will turn us loose shooting 7 rounds at our monthly until after that. I did go out and run some 7 round stages in private and I tell you B.E. It really is fun. I know it's not but 2 more rounds but when we didn't have but 5 to begin with that's what 40% more? Heck as far as getting lost lost because of a malfunction I can do that with 5 so 7 is a given! Remember they can't dish out but 1 procedural! Dusty
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Sooooooo? Making sure that you shoot each target the correct number of times??? The heck with the target order. Take the one P and be done with it!! Good idea??? The RO might possibly try to do a Spirit of the Game penalty but I'm not a gamer, I'm old and easily confused. Hard to prove. Sounds just like a plan. We used to shoot with a cowboy and that was his plan on just about every stage. Order schmorder. He had a lot of fun but if you followed him you better watch out.
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My wife had already figured out the sweep patterns that would work. Something in her quilter's brain that can make order out of chaos.
It remains to be seen how things world out in the real world. Like Ed said - you can foresee lots of "What the heck did he do .....?" looks on the faces of spotters and a lot of PEs awarded.
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WB is getting more like the GAF. ;) Slim
Forget the #$%&! order! Make 'em all knock downs, and shoot 'em all 'till they're dead.
Yee-Haw! ;D
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I'm with you! I like knock downs. For one thing, it enforces a power factor.
Only problem is the constant resetting. That becomes an issue with some people once fatique sets in towards the end of a long hot day of shooting.
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Talking about knockem all down. I created an elaborate WB match years ago for my club including a dummy Browning 1917 WC prop gun, (when you pulled the trigger a tape player would play a loop tape of a machine gun firing.) After the main match was done we would move things around and I would set up 60 knockdowns targets consisting of plates on stands, the range plate rail, our clubs shotgun knockdowns and bowling pins. We would pick cards out of the hat to form 4 man teams. Betcha cant guess who they were. Each team would assign 2 shooters to start with shotguns (and 1911s), one with a rifle (and 1911) and the last with his 1911 (and a rifle). Each shooter had 15 designated targets to knock down but then he could help another shooter out. All guns were loaded to the max. Extra guns were staged on the long table where the 1917 was staged, after firing they went back on the table and were cleared there before being moved. Anyway, when the beep went off all four guys cut loose until every target was down!! VERY dramatic to say the least. I wish I had video of it. Fastest team won. Everyone had a blast!
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I've always seen 5 rounds in the magazine as sort of Oxymoron. 5 round magazines has always made WB nothing more than CAS with a 1911. Of course, I have real deep Heartburn with what SASS has done to Wild Bunch anyway so it actually made some sense that SASS would limit magazine capacity along with screwing up everything else.
It's sort of a "What Took Ya Sol Long" sort of thing. Trying to figure out why that magazine thing is so Long?? Maybe we should put more rounds innit?? Who'd a thought. Novel concept ... that.
Time to clean and oil up my Broom Handle yet?? Thought not..
B. Ed, Think you've got a pretty valid stand too. 35 round pistol stage be fun to keep track of. No it wouldn't.
Cas with a 1911? Maybe where you shoot. In one of the matches I shot recently after WB was done they moved the 1911 targets in and used them for CAS rifle targets and they were still at the max recommended distance for CAS.
You need to get out more and try a little variety.
wM1
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Forget the #$%&! order! Make 'em all knock downs, and shoot 'em all 'till they're dead.
Yee-Haw! ;D
Yee-haw indeed!!!! That's my favorite kind of stage! In my above post that 40 shot pistol with 10 shotgun had no double taps,no dump targets but it had 4 airborne pigeons , 12 falling plates,2 dueling trees, 3 oxygen tank bells, targets from 8 yards out to 45 yards but that one was a big plate about 2' square lots of 15-20 yard targets. That includes a plate rack called the snuff can because that's what was used to trace the targets out with. So I don't know does that sound like a cowboy match today? ;D
My god! Thinking about it that was a GAF war without the great costuming! ;D ;D
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Talking about knockem all down.
All guns were loaded to the max. Extra guns were staged on the long table where the 1917 was staged, after firing they went back on the table and were cleared there before being moved. Anyway, when the beep went off all four guys cut loose until every target was down!! VERY dramatic to say the least. I wish I had video of it. Fastest team won. Everyone had a blast to say the least.
Dramatic - yes. Fun - yes - but .....
I know of a case where during such a team event, a shooter with an original '86 45-70 suffered a squib due to powder contamination when the lube melted in his loads. He fired again and blew the barrel of his rifle.
He sued the commercial reloader and won damages as he has specified a lube known to better resist warm temperatures.
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There is indeed a risk in multiple shooters shooting at multiple targets simultaneously. I've cut lumber in half with rifles as a posse event during a regional or state shoot, don't remember which. And as I've said on other threads, I was standing behind a shooter who blew up his 3rd gen Colt SA with a gross overload and was also present when a new shooter dropped his mag follower on a partially loaded Henry magazine with disastrous results. What we do is dangerous. Potential squibs were dicussed and shooters could opt out of the event. We shot it 3 or 4 times that day I'm thinking, luckily with no problems.
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... that's because it ain't Cowboy - it's Mexican Revolution. The Cowboy era was gone by then.
Anyone who can count to 5 can count to 7, at least he/she oughta be able to.
I haven't seen the rule change. Does it men that you get more targets to shoot at or more rds to fire at the usual number?
You are right PJ, it ain't Cowboy. I live in the period 1861 to 1885. Wild Bunch is too modern for me.
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I live in the period of 1896 to1912. What makes WB too modern imo (even though I like it and compeat) are the modern custom 1911s and speed holster gear. 1911s or A1s only, original or repro pistols, one or two hands, magazines IN a pouch. It's simple. Let the FILM be the guide.
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I agree on the modern WB gear - IPSC leather gussied up to look western. Horse feathers! Some just gotta have the edge, real or imaginary.
I don't like the use of two hands in CAS - period - as it just ain't Cowboy.
Re: the problem with the Henry .... I've been present twice when three rds detonated in a Henry after the nose cap was dropped with disasterous effect on the rifles and one of the shooters. I know of others as well.
In one case, it was on the clock, t'other right at the loading table.
I no longer think such events are a good idea and I lower the follower on my Henry with care.
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I agree on the modern WB gear - IPSC leather gussied up to look western. Horse feathers! Some just gotta have the edge, real or imaginary.
I don't like the use of two hands in CAS - period - as it just ain't Cowboy.
Re: the problem with the Henry .... I've been present twice when three rds detonated in a Henry after the nose cap was dropped with disasterous effect on the rifles and one of the shooters. I know of others as well.
In one case, it was on the clock, t'other right at the loading table.
I no longer think such events are a good idea and I lower the follower on my Henry with care.
"I don't like the use of two hands in CAS - period - as it just ain't Cowboy."
Exactly! As you previously stated, IPSIC with cowboy boots.
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Forget the #$%&! order! Make 'em all knock downs, and shoot 'em all 'till they're dead.
Yee-Haw! ;D
Sounds great :).....let us know how many people showed up Friday to set up and how long it took ;D ;)
I really don't care one way or the other on the 7 round mag change, never heard a complaint. Only problem is now I have to invent a bunch of sweeps based on 7, 14 and 21 :-\ Maybe it will be a fun problem ;D. Multiples of 5 were easy to write stages with, and you could make the stage flow with the rifle the same order or similar.......plus I have about ten years of stages saved to get ideas from. Think now the rifle will be 7 rounds most of the time, should be a wash on how much brass to shag.
If we're gonna be pushing for using the guns as intended let's do away with 6 rounds in the shotgun :o ::)
Jefro :D Relax-Enjoy
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I really don't care one way or the other on the 7 round mag change, never heard a complaint. If we're gonna be pushing for using the guns as intended let's do away with 6 rounds in the shotgun :o ::)
Jefro :D Relax-Enjoy
Look, if you're gonna interject with reason, logic and common sense, this discussion has nowhere to go .... :>)
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I see a whole new sass gunsmithing modification that all WB shooters will have to have....7 rd '97 shotgun mod. Load 7 in your 1911 and 7 in your '97. And don't forget about those WB cowboy hats with the brim only on the front.
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97's were made to hold 6 two and one half inch shells. They will not hold 7. 1911's were made to hold 7.
wM1
PS Get a 73 with 30" barrel you can load a bunch.
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Forget the #$%&! order! Make 'em all knock downs, and shoot 'em all 'till they're dead.
Yee-Haw! ;D
Sounds great :).....let us know how many people showed up Friday to set up and how long it took ;D ;)
We did it at A GAF Muster with a Gatling gun! Great fun! But everyone was pitching in. The model of Gatling we were using used steel "tubes" loaded with a .45colt round, the original model would have used the tubes loaded with loose powder, ball and percussion cap. So everyone that wasn't setting targets was loading tubes and magazines.
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Workin' on it.
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... that's because it ain't Cowboy - it's Mexican Revolution. The Cowboy era was gone by then.
Anyone who can count to 5 can count to 7, at least he/she oughta be able to.
I haven't seen the rule change. Does it men that you get more targets to shoot at or more rds to fire at the usual number?
That's like the '97 shotgun, the cowboy era was gone when that came out.
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Tell that to the cowboy shooters that single feed their '97's.
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That's like the '97 shotgun, the cowboy era was gone when that came out.
I've got to disagree there. All the cowboys and settlers didn't sell their horses and wagons on January 1,1900 and buy Fords. The Native Americans didn't move into houses and drink tea with their pinky stuck up on 1-1-1900. They didn't close down the saloons and brothels and fire the lawmen as the towns had become so civilized. The banditos, renegades and criminals were still out there, the cattle still had to be herded and moved to the railhead. The major conflicts between settlers/military and the Plains indians had ended but there was plenty of wild west at the turn of the century, it just wasn't the same as 30 years before. The cap and ball guns became cartridge guns, muzzle to breech loader to Henrys to Winchesters, double guns to the 1887 to the 1897. The wagon train evolved into the iron horse which eventually became the Model T. Technology drives change, everyone wants an edge or the newest thing. Some cowboys, criminals and lawmen embraced the development of the double action revolver and eventually the 1911, others didn't. The change was a gradual thing. The cowboy era had certainly changed by 1897 but was not gone.
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97's were made to hold 6 two and one half inch shells. They will not hold 7. 1911's were made to hold 7
Backing up to wildman's comment. Weell, you CAN get 7 in a 97 if you try hard enough. I started experimenting with these 2 inch shells 3 years ago. My original 2 inch shell held six .33 oo buck shot with the voids filled in with #9 shot. These WB loads use a #408 powder bushing with clay dot powder and a 7/8 oz #9 shot bushing in ww hulls. The wad is a red claybuster cb1138-12. I also put a 5/8 in diameter over shot wad punched from my mty primer container cardboard slipcovers. The hard part was the crimp die. I didn't want to shorten my vintage Bair/Pacific steel crimper so I shortened and modified an old mec aluminum one. The loaded shells are 2 inch give or take a few thous. Seven fit and feed in my three 6 round altered Winchesters (a 97, a Norinco trench and my M12 trench). I have seen them bump the front of the ejection port but I'm thinking that a slight tilt to the left when racking the gun should get the round where it needs to go. Don't know if they'll ever be particularly useful but it can be done.
As they say in France ta-daaa.
Redid the photos. I've found that if I crop my photos before I upload them to my jpeg app they will stay right side up.
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I just got the official notice of change here in Victoria Someone should post the changes here.
I tried my '97 with 2 inch roll crimped rounds but gave it up. The short shells got lost in the feed cycle.
However! I shortened some split neck AAs to 2 3/8" and roll crimped. VOILA/Eureka! They worked AND got six in an unmodified magazine. I was happy about that.
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Has anyone shot a match with the 7 rd rule? Our club match creator designs our WB matches to be shot as CAS matches too so he has kept the 5 rd only rule so that SAAs and 1911s can be used. I haven't been to a dedicated WB match since it got cold.
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I have. Several. No big deal, but a little more latitude on stage writing. Some are cutting back on the rifle rounds. A few difficulties with loading some 7 round mags in slide forward position. Several other changes take a little more getting used to.
wM1
PS BE you could probably get more than 7 in that 97 if you cut em a little shorter.
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If I cut them any shorter I'd have to leave something out.
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Just for Grins and Giggles, a couple of years ago I went to a WB match with a pocket full of Aguila Mini Shells. 7 inna magazine was absolutely no problem. Fun too. Of course, nobody around here wanted to actually shoot WB. They just wanted to shoot Cowboy with 1911s. SASS still put WB inna toilette.
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It might be "Cowboy" with a 1911 until you have a stage with 210 pistol rounds. ;)
wM1
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I don't have that many mags I'm afraid. 30? Maybe if I were 'John Smith' from Last Man Standing.
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There was some mag borrowin goin on.
wM1