.45 Big Groove Bullets and accuracy??

[rifle]

I really can't hack on the 45 pistol bullet or the 44 pistol bullet with their sectional density not being the best for shooting long range or mid or short range either. They can perform. I've got a Winchester/Ubert 1873 Sporting rifle with the 30 inch barrel chambered in 45 Colt. It's kilt more ground hogs marauding in the fields ,digging tractor bouncing holes , than any gun I've got. It will do the job even though it shoots like a rainbow. I've drilled those enemies of the hay wagon out to 400 yards and beyond. With the pistol bullet and it's terrible sectional density and ballistic coefficient. It seems to me if you go back to basics and give the rifles a chance they can perform. Some won't. Cerrosafe chamber moulding alloy is the place to start figuring things out.  The chamber has to be reamed well and in conjuction to the bore and the grooves. If the chamber is cock-eyed the rifle won't shoot well. The bullet has to be the right alloy for the gun and the loads too. The 1-20, 1-30 bullet alloy tin to lead is a good place to start after it's determined the chamber is right. Besides the M-16 I cut my shooting teeth on muzzleloaders. Standard with them is....find the right load for the gun. The load it shoots best with. That's after it's determined the barrel is proper. No tight spots or loose spots ect. ect. The crown has to be 100% concentric with the bore. Not every gunsmith will do a job on a crown for form and function and make it concentric with the bore using a "snug" piloted reamer. Lever actions can have bad crowns since they are cleaned from the muzzle and....coming from Italy means things can come from the factory a little off kilter. I ordered my rifle from Navy Arms. I recieved thre that went back due to defects. The forth I kept and ,I swear, it's like one of those "One in a Thousand" guns Winchester used to sell.  The first rifles had rifling problems in a couple. Actual factory boo boos that were visible just "looking" down the bore. Machining screw ups. They went back. Barrels can look good but be "too far off" to shoot well. The crown is an easy one to fix. Tight spots take a good bit of lapping. Loose spots make the barrel terrible and cause a barrel change to be in order. A person can put a real tight patch in an oiled bore and run it from the breech to the muzzle and back then.....push it thru the barrel with an even speed and force. Feel for tight spots where the patched jag gets tight or loose. If the barrel is bad you can feel it sometimes.  Anyway...just like the Buckskinners do with the muzzleloaders the right load for the gun has to be found. Even hard cast bullets on top black should be tried with a grease cookie. The lube pill/grease cookie has to have the right lube on it. The lube used with black powder is as important as anything else in the load chain. Lube can make or break a good load. If people say Pearl Lube works then give it a try. I bet if the rifle in question was loaded with a cartridge and blackpowder tube dropped in and compressed a mild amount and held in there with a firm crimp it would start showing signs of shooting well. Thing is...if the bullet ain't loaded straight it won't shoot straight. I'd try  that Meachum Tools seating die that seems to me would hold the bullets straight and true and get them in the case properly. It's construction is such that  a bullet that fits the die can't go in cockeyed. I'd say it's the best one. Better than Redding's competition seating die. Primers are important too. They have to be coupled with the amount of crimp,or the lack of it, to help. The primer can move the bullet forward even before the powder gets going. That causes a powder chamber that is too open when the powder takes off. The bullet can move,stop and then go again if the primer gets it out of the case. Bad for blowback too. Federal 215 primers work well in some loads but....standard primers work better in some loads. Anyway a 45 bullet can do the job if it carries enough lube that can fly off as soon as the bullet exits the barrel. A grease cookie can work too as long as the lube recipe is good. Wax is not a good lube. It only carries the "lube" suspended in it since lube is so soft. Get the right amount of lube that is soft enough on the bullet ,or behind the bullet in the case of lube cookies, and the lube won't stick to the back of the bullet or too it's lube grooves. Get the bullets made of the right alloy which would be 1-20 I'd bet. Tin to lead in lbs. Get the bullet going at least over 1,000fps. Use a firm crimp and some mild compression. Use the right lube(I lke beeswax,paraffin wax and mutton tallow in equal amoumts. Some like the lube part of the mix to be half of the recipe. Hard fouling in the barrel interspersed at random in different places each shot makes a gun shoot like it has a bad crown. Check the crown for wear or factory defect. Have someone do the crown using a "piloted" reamer and make sure they use the tightest pilot they can get on the lands. Get some Cerrosafe and slug the chamber and the bore to check for defects and to find the right bullet diameter. A bullet .001 or .002 over the groove diameter would be something to try but at least make sure the bullet is at least the same diameter as the grooves in the barrel. Obstuation doesn't always happen consistantly exactly the same each shot. Don't rely on a process that can be irregular. Make the bullet fit the barrels grooves  right off the bat. Make sure the bullet is "round". Bullets aren't usually round as they come from the mould. Round bullets shoot better. Bullets that aren't round shoot irratically. One kewl thing to do is.....mark the cases all in the same spot and mark the bullets all in the same spot and load the bullets in the finished cases with the marks lined up and in the chamber the same way each time. Magic marker on the bullets or a tiny scratch on the nose before it's dropped out of the mould half. Do that while testing loads. One at a time. Single shot. Or.....go to one of the forums where the black powder cartridge Silhouette people are discussing these things and ask questions. Just don't let anyone tell you a shorter 45 bullet can't shoot well because of it's sectional density of it's ballistic coefficient. They can shoot well. Maybe not like a 510gr. 45 bullet but well enough to plink at targets out to 200yds. at least. Have faith. I ain't no expertt but I can advise and suggest things as well as anybody.  

[Springfield Slim]

Just a thought, are you using the 250 or the 200 grain Big Lube(tm) bullet? Also what diameter, .452 or .454?  I personally shoot 44-40, and I can hit a 12 metal plate with my Henry at 100 yds all day long. Don't have any 45 Colt rifles.

[1860]

This has been a very good discussion for me, always good to here other peoples input and ideas.  I'm gonna have to spend a little quality time with different crimps and I think compression might also be an issue-(I'm gonna try more powder along with more compression).  The chamber/barrel are ok, I had trouble with the chamber when I first bought the gun and Uberti replaced the bbl-(it shoots fine with smokeless).  I may not be using the 45 much, I just bought a 44-40, either way I will be using .38s and they have a blowback issue as well so I'll apply some of this to them...

Slim,  I've tried both .452 & 4

Thanks
60

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[Steel Horse Bailey]

To Quote DD - "There's learnin' goin on here!"

Great informative posts.  Howdy Doody: - Rifle: - you fellers really got yer $hi ... stuff together!

[Dick Dastardly]

FWIW, I'll be shooting some long range side matches at "Hang 'Um High" this weekend, mostly tomorrow.  I'll take some careful notes and  report back.  My pistol caliber rifle will be a Browning 92 44 Magnum.  I'll also be shooting a 38-55 Winchester and a 45-70 Remington rolling block.  All will be stoked with Holy Black and Big Lube™ boolits.

May the winds be favorable, the light gentle on the targets and the sights clear and crisp.

DD-DLoS

[trickshot]

rifle,

I understand most of what you wrote, but could you please explain in more detail how a person goes about determining:
if the chamber is reamed well and in conjuction to the bore and the grooves,
the crown is 100% concentric with the bore,
factory boo boos that are visible just "looking" down the bore.

Live Free

[w44wcf]

The Fox Creek Kid wrote:

No offense pardner, but the .45 Colt is not a good rifle round. Period. Mike Venturino did extensive testing years ago comparing 44-40 to .45 Colt and could never get the .45 Colt to group as well in an Uberti.

I have owned a .45 Colt Marlin 1894 Cowboy rifle  since 1997, and will say that if Mike had used my rifle when doing his testing, he would have found that the .45 Colt round was easily as accurate as the .44-40's he tested.  WIth both black and smokleless, this .45 Colt rifle has delivered 1 1/2" 10 shot groups at 50 yards if I do my part. Smallest 5 shot groups have been under 1".

Regarding accuracy of the .45 Big Lube bullet at a distance, I have found that they shoot fine at 100 yards, but at 327 yards (distance to the steel javelina NRA high power silhouette target) they are not accurate at all, with bullets impacting several feet apart!   Somewhere between 100 and 327 yards, accuracy starts to really deteriorate. I'll be trying them at 200 yards to see how they shoot at that distance within the next month or so.   

THE REASON:  is that this bullet has a very wide meplat (nose). I have found that other .45 Colt bullets like the 454190 and RCBS 250 with smaller nose diameters will shoot just fine at 327 yards. 

As another example of accuracy deterioration at longer distances with bullets having wide meplats.......a friend was using a 400 gr. LBT bullet in his .45-70, and it shot well at 100 yards.  As he tried shooting them at longer distances, he found that accuracy went downhill quickly.

Rifle wrote:

I really can't hack on the 45 pistol bullet or the 44 pistol bullet with their sectional density not being the best for shooting long range or mid or short range either. They can perform.

Yes indeed, I have found that to be true.  No doubt, the higher sectional density bullets launched by the .45-70 are superior, don't sell the lower sectional density / ballistic coefficient pistol bullets short.  With both my .44-40 & .45 Colt rifles, I have been able to shoot some 6"-8" groups at 300 yards.  Even Winchester, back in 1899, recommended their .44-40 for 300 yard shooting. 

w44wcf     

[Mad Mucus]

Well.... today my 24" .45Colt Marlin Cowboy and I managed to throw 50 x PRS 45-250 BigLubes(1st casting WW+2%tin and not perfect fillout) into a paper plate size paper target at 50yds, off sandbags, with enough inside a 4" group to extract a grin.

Good enough for me mate.

Mucus

[w44wcf]

1860 wrote:

-(I'm gonna try more powder along with more compression)

In dissecting some factory UMC headstamped (pre 1910) .45 Colt cartridges I found that they had about .20" of compression. I have found that that amount of compression has worked very well, giving good accuracy and less fouling.
 

I will be using .38s and they have a blowback issue as well

I shoot .38 Specials loaded with b.p. in my .357 Marlin Cowboy rifle.  I have found that if I anneal the case necks that it eliminates blowby just like it does with the .45 Colt .

Have fun!
w44wcf