Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => USFA CSS => Topic started by: hatman on December 06, 2015, 07:06:34 PM
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Howdy folks,
I guy at the range last week mentioned he had a USFA 1847 Walker in a "brown patina" finish.
His dad bought it, he thinks, about 20 years ago and it was recently willed to him.
He said it's never even been taken out of the box.
He was curious, and so am I, as to what fair market value might be.
I googled up one reference was that they sold for about $1000 about 5 years ago.
For my own curiosity, would this be an Italian parts/USFA-assemble gun?
Thanks.
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A USFA 1851 Navy new in box sold for $905 a few weeks ago on gunbroker. I would think a Walker would go for more but not really sure.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=512824498
As I understand it all of the USFA/USPFA percussion revolvers were made with Italian parts, some were Armi San Marco and some were Uberti.
Here is some good info about USFA/USPFA percussion revolvers:
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-percussion-revolvers/106789-first-blackpowder-gun-my-birthday.html
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-revolvers/22621-colt-2nd-gen-blackpowder-mystery-gun.html
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A USFA 1851 Navy new in box sold for $905 a few weeks ago on gunbroker. I would think a Walker would go for more but not really sure.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=512824498
As I understand it all of the USFA/USPFA percussion revolvers were made with Italian parts, some were Armi San Marco and some were Uberti.
Here is some good info about USFA/USPFA percussion revolvers:
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-percussion-revolvers/106789-first-blackpowder-gun-my-birthday.html
http://www.coltforum.com/forums/colt-revolvers/22621-colt-2nd-gen-blackpowder-mystery-gun.html
Thanks LP. Interesting info.
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The USFA cap and ball revolvers were few in number, and unfortunately , were not well documented. I myself spent a bit of time searching about and could not find any documentation that USFA produced a Walker, but that doesn't prove much since USFA was well known to take Italian parts and build a beautiful "one of" at the drop of a hat.
They were "supposed to" build Remington 1858's but except for the "show guns" none every showed up.
I hope Gary or the other USFA experts show up soon ....
yhs
prof mumbles
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I got to see the "Walker" this week out at the range.
Turns out it's a 3rd Model Dragoon.
It's definitely been fired and is missing the wedge screw.
It did have a very nice antique finish.
I didn't see any identifying marks, but it did come with a nice old box and a USFA owners manual.
I told him I'd buy it for $500, but that he might get a lot more, maybe.
He replied he'd be willing to sell it to me for $1000 and I declined.
He said he'd post it on gunbroker at some point.
I may have jumped on it at $1000, but I didn't because I've spent way more than anticipated for some cool guns in the last couple months and my Uberti Walker is a great shooter.
Does anybody think I'm an idiot for passing up an antiqued USFA Dragoon for $1000?
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I was certainly enthralled by that USFA 1851 Navy that I posted a link to earlier but to be honest I'm not really a collector. That said, IMHO I think you were right to offer $500 and right to pass on $1,000. Usually if something is not 100% New in Box the value drops considerably. I could be wrong though, it might be rare enough that it still has collector value after being fired. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in.
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End of story:
Guy comes to the range today and plops the Dragoon in a wood presentation box with accessories on the bench and says it's mine for $500.
I said I'd buy it if I could shoot it successfully first.
I hit a couple clays at 50yds with two cylinders (max 5" group).
I just finished cleaning it. :)
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I hit a couple clays at 50yds with two cylinders (max 5" group).
I just finished cleaning it. :)
Well played : )
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Hatman,
Might you share some pictures of this weapon?
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Hatman,
Might you share some pictures of this weapon?
I'd be happy to, but I don't know how to post pictures.
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If you have a picture of it on your computer, you can go to the additional options (at the lower left corner of the reply box) and select the attach button to select the photo (from the folder it is in on your computer). It should show up as an attached file and when you post, it will show up in the reply box. Might take a couple of tries, but a good way to learn. :)
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Attempting to post a pic...
Hey, it worked. Thanks Pangaea.
As you notice, it's missing the wedge screw, but we used a Uberti Walker screw worked for the tryout.
Seller gave me a replacement screw today. I'll have to antique it.
Seller also told me he found another antiqued Dragoon in his deceased dad's belongings.
He said he'll probably put it on gunbroker at some point.
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I checked with a long term employee of USFA just to confirm and we never did an antique Dragoon. Also, the fit of the BS and TG is not up to USFA standards.
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I checked with a long term employee of USFA just to confirm and we never did an antique Dragoon. Also, the fit of the BS and TG is not up to USFA standards.
Interesting.
Any idea who the manufacturer may be?
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Curious as to made you think it was a USFA gun?
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Were I about to risk real money, I'd be betting it's an ASM.
Coffinmaker
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Curious as to made you think it was a USFA gun?
It came with a USFA owners manual (which covered several BP models).
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Were I about to risk real money, I'd be betting it's an ASM.
Coffinmaker
Aah interesting.
I'm kinda stuck, but it shot well.
I guess I overpaid, but such is life.
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it shot well.
That would be worth a premium to me...
Any other markings on the gun? Top or bottom of the barrel?
Anything on the case?
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That would be worth a premium to me...
Any other markings on the gun? Top or bottom of the barrel?
Anything on the case?
Only markings are fairly crude serial numbers in a couple places (1988).
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One thing we seem to have ascertained, whatever it is that you have, it is not a USPFA or USFA product. ???
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"It came with a USFA owners manual (which covered several BP models)."
That of itself is interesting. Could you list the bp models in the owners manual?
Is there any chance this could be a USFA Dragoon that somebody antiqued on their own? Perhaps they damaged the backstrap/trigger guard and it was originally a better fit.
I agree with yahoody, if it shoots well that's worth something.
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"It came with a USFA owners manual (which covered several BP models)."
That of itself is interesting. Could you list the bp models in the owners manual?
Is there any chance this could be a USFA Dragoon that somebody antiqued on their own? Perhaps they damaged the backstrap/trigger guard and it was originally a better fit.
I agree with yahoody, if it shoots well that's worth something.
The front cover of the manual states United States Patent Fire-Arms Company.
Sections I - IV are generic instructions for bp revolvers
Section V is loading recommendations for:
- Walker Colt
- U.S. Dragoon (1st, 2nd, 3rd models)
- 1860 Army
- 1851 & 1861 Navy
- 1862 Police & Pocket Navy
- Baby Dragoon & 1849 Pocket
Section VI includes schematics of all the above models
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OK, now here's something that might be a helpful clue:
Upon taking a closer look at the gun under bright light I see the cylinder has, in addition to a pretty indecipherable scene etching with a horse there is an etching of "US PATENT".
Right above that is another etching only partially readable. It starts out "MODEL" then it looks like "US" and the rest is just a guess with "NR".
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hatman, on original, 2nd Gen and 3rd Gen Colt's the writing you describe would normally say "COLT'S PATENT" and "MODEL USMR". The fact that is says "US PATENT" eliminates Colt as the manufacturer and might be a clue as to who might have made it.
Have you taken the revolver apart yet? Uberti sometimes puts their symbol on the frame underneath the trigger guard.
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Yes, it could be USMR.
If so, what would that mean?
No, I not yet taken it apart except for basic cleaning.
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USMR stands for United States Mounted Rifles as these Walker/Dragoon guns were originally designed for the Cavalry, to be carried in a saddle holster.
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USMR stands for United States Mounted Rifles as these Walker/Dragoon guns were originally designed for the Cavalry, to be carried in a saddle holster.
Aaah, thanks for that.
So assuming that this really is an ASM gun in antiqued and beat up used condition and it shoots well, what do you think might be the appropriate price?
I'm asking because although the seller and I settled on $500 under the assumption it was a USFA, we chatted today about these findings in this thread and he agreed that a re-negotiation is fine (he's a good guy).
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Obviously a VERY good guy.
Wondered what a Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon was actually worth myself.. $350/380.
ASM...in rough condition? even less imo.
http://www.sportsmanswarehouse.com/sportsmans/Uberti-3rd-Model-Dragoon-.44Cal-Black-Powder-Revolver/productDetail/Black-Powder-Pistols/prod9999010501/cat100006BP
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/112387/uberti-1848-3rd-model-dragoon-steel-frame-black-powder-revolver-44-caliber-7-1-2-blue-barrel
http://www.texasjacks.com/goods/guns-n-stuff/percussion-revolvers-3/walker-dragoon-1/dragoons-3rd-model-1.html
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Well...being that you asked
a new Uberti is Regular Price: $449.9 Sale Price: $379.99 right now at Cabela's
The ASM was about $150 new in final years .... 15 -18 years ago
And less, as there were ASM kits....
I'd say in today's market 175.00 - $200.00 and that's being fair
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By the look of it on fit and finish ...my guess would be a kit gun originally and even then not very well put together.
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I'm of two minds here (don't bring me into this ???) I personally "think" it's an ASM. It's in "rough" cosmetic condition. I't cosmetic
condition is rough for anything made in the 20th/21is centuries.
Major 2 - Is being more than "Fair." Kind is more likely.
There is something to be said for "it shoots good." For an ASM, rough, $150 is top money if "it shoots good). I personally wouldn't want
to assign a value unless I could take it apart and put a "glass" on all the markings.
Coffinmaker
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If it really shoots a consistent 5 inch group at 50 yards I'd gladly pay $150 for it, as long that 5 inch group is at point of aim. I wouldn't care what it looks like or what brand it is. That would be better performance than my Colt 2nd Gen 3rd Dragoon, which is admittedly a very good looking gun. So far it's shooting 6 inch groups about 18 inches high and 6 inches left at 25 yards.
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I'm of two minds here (don't bring me into this ???) I personally "think" it's an ASM. It's in "rough" cosmetic condition. I't cosmetic
condition is rough for anything made in the 20th/21is centuries.
Major 2 - Is being more than "Fair." Kind is more likely.
There is something to be said for "it shoots good." For an ASM, rough, $150 is top money if "it shoots good). I personally wouldn't want
to assign a value unless I could take it apart and put a "glass" on all the markings.
Coffinmaker
I was going for fair.... kinda fair ;)
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I've decided to give the seller $250 for a couple reasons:
- He was good enough to accept a renegotiation so I'm good with rewarding him a little for that
- It does come with a nice wood presentation box
I've made worse purchases over the years and $250 doesn't break the bank.
Thanks for all the feedback.
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I think that's fair for both parties. I would still compare the screw sizes, nipple sizes and serial number fonts to see if you can rule out any manufacterers. Any news about the other purported USFA he has? Does it have USFA markings or is it blank like this one?
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I'm the fellow with the two 3rd Model Dragoons. I am a bullseye pistol shooter for 20+ years and been around guns for 49 years now. I am an avid revolver shooter and have shot Master Class scores with my Smith 625-6, including many 100's on timed and rapid fire and even a 97-6x from the 50-yard line. I own a Hammerli 280, a Feinwerkbau AW93, several M1911's, a Python, a Freedom Arms .454 and lots of other fun guns.
My Father in Law lived in Orange County, CA and liked to go to the gun show in Costa Mesa at the Fairgrounds. He passed away three years ago and I made many trips to his house to help take care of his wife. He had LOTS of stuff he gathered over the years. Two years ago I found one of the Colt Third Model Dragoons and brought it home. This is the one I sold to hatman.
Last month I found another gun. This one is also in a wooded casr and has a powder flask with it. Pretty nice case, not the best but very acceptable case. The 2nd gun looks very much like the first but slightly less wear. It is also antiqued to make it look very old but mechanically it is in very good condition.
Both guns came with the wood boxes and included an owners's manual. Here is a scan of the cover of the owner's manual:
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Manual.jpg)][URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Dragoon%20Manual.jpg.html](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Manual.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Dragoon%20Manual.jpg.html)[/url]
The manual is cream colored. I is four inches wide, six and a half inches tall and is 52 pages long.
The gun has no markings as to who made it. They cylinder does say US PATENT and USMR on it. It also has the name of the engraver on it in very small print " W L Ormsby So NY ". Yes, that is the name of the real engraver. The scene on the cylinder is that of a Calvary Charge.
So, what you all are saying is that someone got ahold of a kit gun and had the cylinder engraved, antiqued the gun, printed PHONY owners' manuals and built a presentation box for it? That is what it would take to do as you suggest.
I don't know, you could be right. My Father in Law liked to buy guns at the gun show and he had plenty of disposable money. These guns would certainly catch is eye and he could buy them no problem. What this means is there are others just like them floating around and probably sold in California.
Is this information of more value?
Thanks!
Bill
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More info is always good info. The engraver? The "real" engraver?
More on him here:
http://www.coinworld.com/news/us-coins/2015/03/Engraver-W-L-Ormsby-was-a-renegade-bad-boy.html
I have a replica colt box for a SAA that looks to be a perfect copy from the late 1870s. But made in ply wood. Nicely stained ply wood at that :) Real one would have been solid wood. But I like it and almost worth what I paid for it.
Love to see more photos of the manual, gun and case.
Look anything like these?
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11299711
http://www.icollector.com/Armi-San-Marco-3rd-Model-Dragoons-Cal-44-SN-E58_i20699833
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I just noticed on the back cover of the owner's manual it says COPYWRITE on it!! That is a mis-spelling! It should say COPYRIGHT on it! The plot thickens! A real company would not make a basic mistake like that.
Could this be from CHINA?????
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Forgot the most important thing Bill..."A warm WELCOME to the USFA forum :)"
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Thanks for the welcome! I showed the manual to my wife, who has some experience with publishing. Se says the manual is VERY amateurish!
I am busy taking more pictures and scanning more of the manual. More to come, stay tuned, don't touch that dial......!! 8)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon_Servicing%20Instr.jpg)][URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Dragoon_Servicing%20Instr.jpg.html](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon_Servicing%20Instr.jpg) (http://[URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Dragoon_Servicing%20Instr.jpg.html)[/url]
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Drag_Load%20Specs_WColt.jpg)][/[URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Drag_Load%20Specs_WColt.jpg.html](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Drag_Load%20Specs_WColt.jpg) (http://[/[URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Drag_Load%20Specs_WColt.jpg.html)url]
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon_Ref%20Catalogue.jpg)][/[URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Dragoon_Ref%20Catalogue.jpg.html](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon_Ref%20Catalogue.jpg) (http://[/[URL=http://s2.photobucket.com/user/Salty111/media/Dragoon_Ref%20Catalogue.jpg.html)url]
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Years back, and even more recently, there were some unscrupulous snake oil sales folks, defarbing Italian guns and passing them to
unsuspecting buyers as "originals." Some were well enough done, some folks who should have known better, fell into the trap.
Later, closer inspection proved them to be forgeries. Shootable, but forgeries none the less. Could be your FIL was caught up in
the Gun Forgery tom foolery. Wouldn't be the first, Won't be the last.
A lot to be said for a nice shootable forgery.
Coffinmaker
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Cruizer Bill,
To echo Yahoody, welcome our our forum and thank you for the additional information that you have added to this topic. Hope to see more of you here!
CJF
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Set.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Cylinder.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Cylinder%20Top.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Under.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Trigger.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Drag_Parts%20Diagram.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Drag_Antique%20Stat-Fact%20Proof.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon_Manual%20Replace.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon_Warranty.jpg)
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(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Dragoon%20Contents-diagram.jpg)
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This is what I usually do....
(http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y24/Salty111/Bill%20036.jpg)
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Ormsby was the guy who made the original engraving for the cylinder scene on original Colt's of the 19th century. Almost all replicas have this scene stamped on the cylinder but they leave out or subsitute the word "COLT'S".
The lettering on this Dragoon's cylinder reminds me of some Armi San Marco revolvers I have seen but that is not conclusive proof it isn't a USFA revolver since USFA revolvers were actually made from both Armi San Marco and Uberti parts, with final fit and finish done by USFA.
The serial numbers on this Dragoon do not look like any Armi San Marco or Uberti that I have seen but they do look like the one USFA I have seen. That's not much to go on. My personal opinion is that this Dragoon could be a USFA. If so, it is probably one assembled from unfinished parts after they stopped selling percussion revolvers, not one that was given a special antiqued finish.
This is just my opinion and I am certainly not an expert.
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I know nothing about BP guns. But the serial number stamping on this last one sure does look like later USFA SAA guns I own.
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I'm no true expert (ex = has been, spert = drip under pressure ::) ). However, the drawings included in the "USFA" book were lifted from
Uberti explode view drawings, right down to calling out the item numbers for the parts.
At this point, without a tear-down and detailed inspection under magnification, it's all just a WAG (Military acronym for Wild Ass Guess).
My only hard thought (oh the pain) is, it's not a USFA built gun. ASM, Uberti, "other" but not USFA.
Coffinmaker
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This one looks a lot less "antiqued" than the one the original poster posted. Is the serial number font the same on both?
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Let's attack this from the manual standpoint. Does anyone have an owner's manual from US Patent Firearms Manufacturing Company or USFA? Especially for a black powder revolver but any manual at all? Ever seen a real Owner's Manual for a USFA gun? ::)
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This one looks a lot less "antiqued" than the one the original poster posted. Is the serial number font the same on both?
Yes, they look the same to me, but mine is a bit rougher.
Hey Bill - you wanna swap guns? :P
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Suspect both guns have a maker's mark some where. Paper is easy to duplicate...steel not so much.
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I am enjoying this post as it has turned into a really fine mystery. I am hoping it can be successfully resolved.
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In the meantime, I'm off to the range to shoot mine some more. :)
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I removed the grips and the only thing I found was another serial number on the grip frame. It matches all the other serial numbers. I took out my good magnifying glass under strong light and looked for any markings on the gun. there are absolutely none. No sign of any manufacturer's or proof marks being removed. The parts used in this gun never were marked in any way.
Any former US Patent Firearms Company employees out there? Come clean with us, did you ever build any revolvers as prototypes our of unmarked parts?
Why would someone build a revolver out of totally unmarked parts, then etch the cylinder to match the originals but say it was US Patent instead of Colt Patent, then antique the gun, then build a wooden case for it, and then print PHONY owner's manuals?
BTW, when I took off the grips and looked at the wood underneath, it is BEAUTIFUL work! Wonderful wood work, good wood!
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Why would someone build a revolver out of totally unmarked parts, then etch the cylinder to match the originals but say it was US Patent instead of Colt Patent, then antique the gun, then build a wooden case for it, and then print PHONY owner's manuals?
The Italians build thousands of such guns and parts gun kits, many of which are imported to the US. Cylinders are rolled in Italy.
Cases can be had in many places.
http://www.billscases.com/
Manual? No clue on the manual. But I'd bet USPFA had them printed, flaws and all. Easy to get a manual.
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The cylinder scene would not have been done by a counterfielter. It is a roll stamp that pretty much all the replica manufacturers have, so the cylinder scene is already there before a counterfieter even gets their hands on it.
Did you remove the trigger guard? Some manufacturers put a lot of markings under the trigger guard.
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Hatman,
Can you remove your trigger guard and see if anything is there? I checked under the grips and only found another matching serial number.
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try pictures here to compare both gun's serial numbers.
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I like the Lifetime Warranty. ::)
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and a "historial letter". :-[
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I've never seen a BP manual but looks authentic to me.
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I asked this question on another board and found another fellow with a USPFA black powder revolver. His manual matches mine in appearance:
http://singleactions.proboards.com/thread/16397/real-patent-firearms-gun?page=1&scrollTo=184470
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Cruzier Bill, are you going to shoot this revolver? If you do, please post a report.
Hatman, have you shot any paper targets?
I still think these could be USFA and I'm interested in how accurate they shoot.
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Cruzier Bill, are you going to shoot this revolver? If you do, please post a report.
Hatman, have you shot any paper targets?
I still think these could be USFA and I'm interested in how accurate they shoot.
It shoots as well as most of my bp revolvers.
I still plan to take off the trigger guard looking for marks, but lately I've been enjoying my newly acquired flintlock pistol. :)
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Here's something to ponder.........
Notice the page from the manual entitled NOTICE OF FACTORY PROOF ?
I don't see and proof marks on either revolver.
If the USPFA manual say's that there are proof marks that should be left alone and if found to have had them removed the revolver or parts would be replaced then why would both these "USPFA" revolvers have no proofs?
HH
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I don't think the USA requires proofmarks on cap n' ball revolvers since they aren't considered firearms. Colt 2nd Generation cap n' ball revolvers didn't have proofmarks, just the manufacturer's name. IMHO lack of proofmarks could be considered evidence for these being unfinished USPFA/USFA guns.
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In my opinion, your 3rd Dragoon serial number 1921 had its origin at USPFA. It is in a known serial number range for USPFA Dragoons. Serial numbers 1936 and 1950 were special USPFA Custom Shop Dragoons embellished by master engraver Dennis Kies. Also the "U S PATENT" roll engraved cylinder is another indicator.
It is also my opinion that, although your 3rd Dragoon started out in life at U. S. Patent Fire Arms, it was never completed by this organization. Instead, it was dumped onto the marketplace along with dozens of other unfinished USPFA percussion revolvers in the 2000 - 2001 timeframe. These revolvers were in the white and carried no barrel address or frame markings. Some had blank cylinders while others had roll engraved cylinders with the USMR and U S PATENT etched cartouche which would have encircled the serial number.
Many of these revolvers later acquired COLT'S PATENT stamps on their frames and Colt / Hartford barrel addresses. Some of the revolvers like your Dragoon remained unmarked and were completed by various craftsmen in a variety of configurations, while others were blued and case hardened by Turnbull Restorations.
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Chain-fire that is some great information. Thank you for posting.