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91
STORM / Re: 44 Colt to 44 Special
« Last post by Mako on April 06, 2024, 08:24:29 PM »
You are arguing about something I never said or implied. Look at my original statement. I never said there was a factory "production run".  I merely said there are at least two in existence in .44 Russian (thus not a wive's tail).  Whether they are considered "prototypes" is irrelevant to my original statement that they exist.  Yes production Open Tops were .44 Rimfire, I do not dispute that.

They also had prototypes in .32 and .38 Colt, referred to as "Baby Open Tops" by collectors. A few of those are around still.
  • True you never said "Production Run" (but we are confused), and what does it mean when you told us you would look up the limited run that took place '82 or '83?
  • I believe McDowell never talks about a complete example of any "Baby Open Top".  This is very common with prototypes and pattern room guns.  They are "noodlings", concepts, wild ideas, (fill in your bank here).   
You are being selective in what you post from the book. Why don't you also post page 294 of the book that shows the two .44 Russian 1872 Open Tops, serial No. 4 & 6, while you are at it?  That is as relevant as the page you posted, certainly? I won't even get into the "Baby Open Tops" in .32 and .38 Colt, which were prototype only.
  • Weren't the only two known .44 Russian Open Tops also prototypes?
The thing that confuses me is that McDowell has been presented as the ultimate expert on the Colt 1871-1872 Open Top (almost a "he who cannot be questioned because he wrote the book" veneration) and then his assessment of what construes an actual "legitimate" 1871-1872 Open Top is treated as unimportant.  Please see his statement below in the attachment from page 280.  Later, when he writes about prototypes it appears to me (and please remember, I am easily confused, bemused, bewildered, confounded or sumth'n ) that he treats "prototype" examples as merely the musings of the pattern room mechanics, designers and gunsmiths, but even he doesn't classify them as true 1871-1872 Open Tops, he specifically and intentionally calls them "prototypes". 

I actually understand why he treats them that way.  In the world that some of us have lived and worked in there are many, many, many prototypes, pre-production samples, pre-production trial run pieces and all kinds of partial variants.  Many items are one off or are "Frankenstein" assemblies.  These are in many cases not even serialized or have name plates attached.  They don't go on the books and would confuse even the most diligent project manager or plant supervisor trying to weave them into the tapestry of the named "Type".

McDowell includes just the .44 Henry Rimfire revolvers as "the type" (unless altered to .44-40 after leaving the factory) as you can plainly read on page 280 .  What he is doing in that statement is practicing disambiguation.  He is making sure we all understand the breadth and depth of the type before he begins talking about exceptions.

I would proffer that what Coffin Maker and Abilene nicely pointed out was that we should limit the scope of what a True 1871-1872 Colt Open Top is to be exactly the same as what R. Bruce McDowell wrote they were... ".44 Rimfire for all revolvers unless altered to centerfire (.44-40 WCF) after leaving the factory".  Everything else is a prototype and no different than the equivalent a modern "wildcat" cartridge in a firearm not originally intended to be chambered as such.

Respectfully please consider my argument,
Mako

92
Colt Firearms / Re: Tascosa Joe's latest toy
« Last post by Major 2 on April 06, 2024, 08:16:43 PM »
Sure  :)
93
Colt Firearms / Tascosa Joe's latest toy
« Last post by Tascosa Joe on April 06, 2024, 07:50:13 PM »
I will try to get Major 2 to post a couple pictures of it.
1899 4 3/4" .45 Letters to Factory Nickel and Ivory.  It has blue screws, they were not listed in the letter. SN: 179XXX.
94
STORM / Re: 44 Colt to 44 Special
« Last post by Coffinmaker on April 06, 2024, 10:50:20 AM »
 :) Fun Stuff  ;)

Some Lustrum ago, I had an itch.  Just couldn't let it go.  I just had to have something just like but not quite the same as the 44 Henry Flat partners.  SO:

I sourced up an 1866 Sporting Rifle in 44 Special, acquired a special Carrier Block for short cartridges (made my own too) which allowed the rifle to run 44 Russian.  Then added .44 Cylinders and Barrels to my Uberti Open Tops to also run 44 Russian.  This combination was super kool, except the rifle fouled out terribly (different story). 

I also went another route, Whereby equipped my 1860 Henry Replicant with a Carrier Modification to run with Cowboy 45 Special cartridges and also run C45S Cartridges in my Uberti Open Tops chambered 45 Schofield.  Also works a treat as a substitute Henry Flat round to run in companion guns.

As an aside.  As a retired Gun Plumber, and in my not so humble opine, Uberti should NEVER have chamber their Open Top in .45.  The chamber walls are just too damn thin (another story too).  Please remember, Colt NEVER converted any Percussion Anything to .45 for that very reason.  Burma Shave

Most forgot . . . combined the above with my replicant 1878 Hammer Doubles with All Brass 12Ga hulls.  Just plain SUPER FUN
95
STORM / Re: 44 Colt to 44 Special
« Last post by Tuolumne Lawman on April 06, 2024, 09:00:17 AM »
You are arguing about something I never said or implied. Look at my original statement. I never said there was a factory "production run".  I merely said there are at least two in existence in .44 Russian (thus not a wive's tail).  Whether they are considered "prototypes" is irrelevant to my original statement that they exist.  Yes production Open Tops were .44 Rimfire, I do not dispute that.

They also had prototypes in .32 and .38 Colt, referred to as "Baby Open Tops" by collectors.  A few of those are around still.
96
STORM / Re: 44 Colt to 44 Special
« Last post by Mako on April 06, 2024, 01:50:43 AM »
You are being selective in what you post from the book. Why don't you also post page 294 of the book that shows the two .44 Russian 1872 Open Tops, serial No. 4 & 6, while you are at it?  That is as relevant as the page you posted, certainly? I won't even get into the "Baby Open Tops" in .32 and .38 Colt, which were prototype only.

Making absolute statements can troublesome, I believe you may have hoisted yourself with your own petard.  Please refer to page 295 below which follows the page 294 with the photos you are referring to.

However I notice that that McDowell refers to the .44 Russian variant as a "PROTOTYPE".  Maybe your argument is with McDowell...  However he did "get into those two pistols (.44 Russian), even though they are in fact "Prototypes" "(pardon the paraphrasing).

I must confess I must be losing my ability to quickly find information as I get older, I can't find anything in  chapter "The Colt Model 1871-1872 Open Top Revolver" about a small factory run of revolvers in the .44 Russian cartridge in 1872 or 1873. Is it in a different chapter, or even different book?  Dennis Adler also doesn't write about any limited run that I can find.

Ever the humble student, and voracious for information, please school me.

~Mako
97
The Barracks / Re: I need a .38 cal. Mills pistol belt.
« Last post by smoke on April 05, 2024, 10:04:57 PM »
I don't think he has 2'' webbing? 

I do have one of his Fair Weather Christian belts in .45.
98
The Barracks / Re: I need a .38 cal. Mills pistol belt.
« Last post by Major 2 on April 05, 2024, 09:59:52 PM »
You might try Dave Carrico
99
The Barracks / I need a .38 cal. Mills pistol belt.
« Last post by smoke on April 05, 2024, 09:58:09 PM »
I'm looking for a .38 cal. Mills pistol belt but a 2'' belt.  Navy blue or tan.  H buckle type.  Coon Creek used to carry one but now it shows unavailable. 

If anyone help on this would be appreciated!!

Thanks!!
100
STORM / Re: 44 Colt to 44 Special
« Last post by Tuolumne Lawman on April 05, 2024, 08:05:48 PM »
 You are being selective in what you post from the book. Why don't you also post page 294 of the book that shows the two .44 Russian 1872 Open Tops, serial No. 4 & 6, while you are at it?  That is as relevant as the page you posted, certainly? I won't even get into the "Baby Open Tops" in .32 and .38 Colt, which were prototype only.
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