Author Topic: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 … no, 2021 … no, 2022 National Muster  (Read 9659 times)

Offline Quick Fire

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #100 on: January 10, 2021, 08:05:49 AM »
I saw that one Smoke, but I need the earlier one for the time period I am trying to portray. Thanks anyway
QuickFire                                 Lt. Colonel, Division of Nebraska                                                                                                                                                                          GRAND ARMY of the FRONTIER                                                         
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #101 on: January 14, 2021, 12:52:46 AM »
Quick Fire, and other GAF Comrades:

Apologies yet again for my delay in responding to recent posts (... as well as to your PM inquiries, Quick Fire, which I will address here in this post ...) but nothing I do seems to activate notification from CAS City to me of any responses to threads I have started, or posted in, nor do I get notice of any personal messages for me ...
 :-\  ???  ::)

Anyway, an excellent place to get a proper Pattern 1871 haversack would be "Poor Richards' British Gun Shop & Historical Reproductions" in Phillipsburg, NJ - http://www.richardsreproductions.com/great-britain.html  I have bought quite a few items from Jay Richards and have been well pleased with all of them.

As for correct insignia, there really isn't much (if anything) available in the way of reproduction NWMP insignia.. However, the main reason there are no such reproductions ... and why that isn't really a problem for a NWMP impression ... is because there was no such insignia for anyone below Commissioned Officer status!

Other Ranks (i.e. NCOs, Constables, Sub-Constables) had no insignia other than the NWMP buttons on their uniforms, together with such rank chevrons/badges or trade/efficiciency badges they were entitled to wear.   

So, ideally, you just keep yourself at a "lowly" rank  ... and then you "don't need no stinkin' badges" ... ;)

If you look at period photos of NWMP Other Ranks ... you will see what I mean: no badges on headdress, nor on the collars or elsewhere on the tunic ... except for rank insignia for corporals and above -  ...




North West Mounted Police NCO rank insignia from 1876 until into the 20th century were as follows:


As I believe I mentioned earlier, being rather too long in the tooth (and too 'bulky', frankly) to have any chance of credibly passing myself off as an active Constable, I have elected to do my impression with the rank of Sergeant, which may lend a wee bit more credibility ... though I will certainly not be anywhere as svelte as Sgt. Bagley here -



I have yet to sew on my rank insignia ... mainly because when I got my canvas stable jacket, I decided it needed a bit of alteration, so I delayed attachment of rank insignia until I have that done.   I didn't like the spacing of the buttons on the stable jacket when it arrived ... they were spaced too close together and grouped a bit too high to look quite like the spacing and positioning in the period photos ... and since the jacket actually arrived quite a bit too big (... as if that would usually be a problem with clothes for me! ...) I could actually take apart the whole front and move the edge seams in to eliminate the existing buttonholes completely, so I will be able to re-position the button holes and buttons more to my liking. Taking the front closure apart like that required me to remove the standing collar, for re-attachment later once the front closure is reworked.  It turned into a project which was starting to challenge the limits of my modest tailoring skills so I put it aside for a while, but must really get back at it now that the Holiday Season is behind us.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Quick Fire

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #102 on: January 14, 2021, 07:13:56 AM »
Thanks RsJ for your response. BTW where did you get your seargents chevrons and crown.
QuickFire                                 Lt. Colonel, Division of Nebraska                                                                                                                                                                          GRAND ARMY of the FRONTIER                                                         
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #103 on: January 14, 2021, 03:15:02 PM »
Quick fire:

As you likely know, Other Ranks chevrons and crowns used on tunics during the Victorian era were larger than most such insignia worn on modern service uniforms, so those intended for present-day dress and mess dress uniforms are best for re-enacting purposes, both for their larger size and also because they are available with the appropriate scarlet backing (or other appropriate backing colours such as blue, black and green, as may be appropriate.)  These are the ones I ordered -
https://www.wyedeanstores.com/3-bar-service-stripe-sergeant-queens-royal-hussars-badge

Similar items are available from Canadian uniform accessory suppliers, but the prices are similar or even higher ... and the other reason I ordered from this UK vendor is that it was the only place I found the correct "Canadian yellow" (as they call it) 1¾" wide worsted twill braid (tape) for the outer leg seams of the overalls (trousers), breeches and such (e.g. I will also use it as the distinctive coloured band around the bottom of my pillbox cap) -
https://www.wyedeanstores.com/image/cache/haberdashery/narrow-fabrics/laces/twill-lace/45mm-royal-canadian-mounted-police-yellow-worsted-twill-lace-800x800.jpg

My crowns (as worn above the Sergeant stripe) are Canadian Army Dress Uniform Warrant Officer crowns, which were given to me by a friend in the Canadian Forces so I didn't have to buy mine, but the equivalent item with this same UK vendor, for appropriate size, would be this:
https://www.wyedeanstores.com/badges-by-type-rank-badges/warrant-officer-class-2-wo2-lifeguards-hand-embroidered-badge-large-crown?limit=100 

For clarity, when ordering for export from the UK you would pay the lower "exVAT" (excluding Value Added Tax) prices shown in finer print below the main listing price ...

By the way, for more trivial background information than you likely want to be burdened with, this is the so-called "Queen's Crown" in use both during the current reign of Queen Elizabeth II and also during Queen Victoria's reign. (Although stylistically a bit different, modern insignia are similar enough to be satisfactory.)  I am constantly correcting people who insist on using a "Queen's Crown" and "King's Crown" distinction (which you may have seen mentioned) but that is not historically accurate, and is nothing more than a convenient means of differentiation which really got started only in the latter part of the 20th century, since Elizabeth II became the monarch, by collectors of relatively modern military badges ... based on a mere coincidence. 

In fact, at the beginning of his or her reign, each monarch chooses which of several British royal crowns will be depicted - usually in a rather artistically stylized form - in conjunction with their personal royal cypher, and that crown also is used throughout their reign on other official insignia, such as military badges.  The crown used during Queen Victoria's reign was the "St. Edward Crown" ... but in fact she simply chose to continue to use the same crown as her predecessors, going back to at least George II ... so it has been chosen by more Kings than Queens.  However, when her son succeeded her on the throne in 1901 as King Edward VII, he decided to change to a representation of the "Tudor Crown", and his 20th century male successors (George V, Edward VIII very briefly, and then George VI) also happened to choose the same crown, but when Elizabeth succeeded her father in 1952, she opted to again use a representation of the St. Edward Crown ... so it really has nothing to do with whether the monarch is male or female (as this erroneous modern way of referring to the two styles would suggest) but rather is a matter of the personal choice of each individual monarch ...



Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #104 on: January 14, 2021, 03:37:22 PM »
Taught me something today, Rattlesnake. I also believed it was the sex of the monarch that determined the style. Just a heads up to all you British reenactors, this month on the 22-23 in 1879 the Battle of Rorkes Drift occurred. That happens to be our club shoot so the Webleys will see some action along with my 1873 Winchester musket and its socket bayonet. Time to sing Men of Harlech.
"Give'em hell, Pike"
 There is no horse so dead that you cannot continue to beat it.

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Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #105 on: January 14, 2021, 04:44:49 PM »
Ed,

That is an outstanding rifle and a great outfit!!

Since we are talking about British reenactors, What Price Glory is now carrying a Blue Serge Patrol jacket.

https://onlinemilitaria.net/products/7789-British-Blue-Wool-Patrol-Jacket/

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Offline Quick Fire

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #106 on: January 14, 2021, 06:41:19 PM »
Cool
QuickFire                                 Lt. Colonel, Division of Nebraska                                                                                                                                                                          GRAND ARMY of the FRONTIER                                                         
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #107 on: January 15, 2021, 12:48:02 AM »
Just for the heck of it, here are the Royal Cyphers of the four kings who preceded Victoria on the throne ...

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #108 on: January 15, 2021, 01:16:48 AM »
And the Royal Cypher of Victoria ...

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier


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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #110 on: January 28, 2021, 05:13:52 PM »
I might have a line on a RNWMP Colt NS, if it works out I’ll post photos. Always wanted one.
"Give'em hell, Pike"
 There is no horse so dead that you cannot continue to beat it.

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #111 on: January 31, 2021, 10:10:23 PM »
Careful folks, the holster in the Ebay link posted by Major2 is not a NWMP holster, to my knowledge, and differs from the standard patterns of NWMP/RNWMP?RCMP holster.  It appears to be a bog-standard British/Empire/Commonwealth holster as used by military officers ... which has been "mangled" by having part of the holster body cut away to expose the trigger and triggerguard.

As I posted earlier in this thread, all issued Canadian Mounted Police holsters have always differed from this standard military pattern in the method of securing the flap (with the sole exception of a holster similar to this which was worn only by Sergeants Major and Commissioned Officers for a brief period in the 1890s and a few years after 1900.)  Military holsters such as the one on Ebay have a stud on the flap, with a strap coming from the back to engage the stud. The revolver holsters issued by the Mounted Police had the stud mounted to the body of the holster, engaging a slot/hole on the flap ...



Mind you, I guess one shouldn't expect too much from an Ebay seller who uses the description "Northwestern Canadian Mid. Police" ... and talks about a "canadian mounted police single action colt revolver"  - which is something that has never existed - and mentions "the 1870 era of it's use", considering that the NWMP used the Adams revolver when it came into being in 1874, and thereafter the Enfield revolver until 1904 ...

   ::)

As for the Colt New Service revolver, at least in relation to GAF activities, I would extend the caution that the Colt New Service was not introduced until late 1898, and was not adopted by the newly renamed RNWMP until 1904/5.

Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Major 2

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #112 on: January 31, 2021, 10:31:25 PM »
Good on you RJ ,  thanks for correcting that faux pas

I had no dog in the fight 
when planets align...do the deal !

Offline Quick Fire

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #113 on: February 01, 2021, 02:33:40 PM »
RsJ, another great post. From my research, while the 73 colt peacemaker was never issued at least one was owned as a private purchase by an officer. Also several  colt made revolvers were owned by officers of the NWMP, including an 1851 navy conversion and an 1878 colt double action revolver.
 
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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #114 on: February 03, 2021, 10:10:12 PM »
Well my 1917 vintage Colt New Service .45 RNWMP revolver arrived. This has always been one of my grail guns. The SN is 145404 [crane matches] with RNWMP 1897 stamped on the backstrap and MP on the grip bottom. I looked in my Arms and Accoutrements book [page 189] and found it in a shipment of 200 Colt NS’s shipped to the Commissioner of the RNWMP on October 16, 1919. It looks super and has a great trigger pull. It has black rubber grips that were damaged and repaired, the ejector rod button was incorrect [maybe a OP, wasn’t screwed on correctly but wasn’t cross threaded] so I robbed one from my heinz .38 NS and ordered a repro for the .38. I horse traded a 1915 .455 British NS that was all original but the finish was not very good imo. I had 600.00 in the .455 but I’m not sure how many years ago that was. The issue with the RNWMP Colt that I hope you guys can help me with is that the bbl is stamped .45 COLT while the cylinder is a .455 but the patina on the frame, crane, bbl and cylinder look a 100% match to me. Nothing is refinished, every stamping is sharp, screws are clean. Correct me if I’m wrong but are the 5 digit sn guns .455 while 6 digit sn guns are .45colt? Thinking the cylinder has been switched but when? Would a RNWMP armourer replaced a damaged .45 cylinder with a .455 if that was all he had? Could it have been shipped that way and never corrected? Really doesn’t matter to me as its the real deal even if it is mixed up. Here are pictures the seller posted. I’ll take better ones tomorrow.
"Give'em hell, Pike"
 There is no horse so dead that you cannot continue to beat it.

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #115 on: February 03, 2021, 10:44:12 PM »
That is a nice gun! 

Is the cylinder reamed for .45 Colt?  I have 1915ish NS that went ot England.  It is .455 but was reamed for .45 Colt. 
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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #116 on: February 03, 2021, 10:50:43 PM »
Nothing’s been reamed, the cylinder is original .455, 45lc or 45 Schofield will not chamber. I have .455 loads and plan on shooting it tomorrow.
"Give'em hell, Pike"
 There is no horse so dead that you cannot continue to beat it.

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #117 on: February 03, 2021, 11:07:58 PM »
Interesting.  Maybe Colt used up left over parts after the war to fulfill the contract?  Colt certainly has a history of using "not correct" parts up to fill orders or push products out the door.

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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #118 on: February 04, 2021, 12:36:23 AM »
Perhaps another possibility is that the barrel was replaced, using a .45 Colt-marked one?  As you know, the RCMP purchased these revolvers in both calibers, with .455 to be issued west of Ontario (the environs of the original NWMP and RNWMP, while those in.45 Colt were kept in the East.  Perhaps a rebarreling was required, and only a .45 Colt-marked barrel was available at the time?
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #119 on: February 04, 2021, 10:29:17 AM »
I’ll have to backtrack some. I tried my .455 loads this am and only 2 out of the 6 fired, the other 4 had just a very slight inpact on the primers. Too much space between the rear of the cylinder and the breechface. I tried my .45 autorim loads and while they were a very tight fit they all fired. Then I tried some 45acp in moon clips and they chambered but were problematic as the differences in cases and clip dimensions made some fit ok and others too tight to work smoothly. I also tried .45acp without moon clips and all fired and were easily extracted with a fingernail. Sooo, the bbl is probably legit and the cylinder is the question mark. It doesn’t look like a shaved cylinder as there is an ‘H’ stamp on it. The ejector has definitely been messed with though. I wonder if the front of the cylinder has been faced off a little? The cylinder mic’s 1.595. No endshake and total lock up on all 6 chambers. But the final insult to this 102 year old is the topstrap has been d&t and then plugged and touch up blued. I found that in the daylight. Much sadness. Hurt my heart. Why would somebody do that to a true historical Colt? But it rings steel, has a buttery smooth action and has a true RNWMP provenance. A historical shooter.
"Give'em hell, Pike"
 There is no horse so dead that you cannot continue to beat it.

 

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