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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Pitspitr on March 06, 2021, 06:30:19 PM

Title: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 06, 2021, 06:30:19 PM
I might have to shoot the Grand Muster as a sailor.  ::)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8844/KiJlG8.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1108/mVvMGk.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7985/lv399Y.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9930/L9baXj.jpg)
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Niederlander on March 06, 2021, 06:50:43 PM
I wonder what the NB on the stock means.   I REALLY need to shoot that rifle as some point.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Drydock on March 06, 2021, 07:10:10 PM
Someones initials I suspect.

Sailor Jerry.  That sounds familiar . . .

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=B3c0AcjC&id=8239654F34639A9AE90AE9334989BDF715687C3D&thid=OIP.B3c0AcjCrVulbxBEPnMJvgAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR07773401c8c2ad5ba56f10443e7309be%3frik%3dPXxoFfe9iUkz6Q%26riu%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fi1319.photobucket.com%252falbums%252ft662%252ftattoodoblog%252fSAILOR%2bJERRY%252fflash1_zps58117df4.jpg%26ehk%3dpuEpnzoXDGNexvSkO4gTZnnL0%252bKMG8ZW4n281Z6pQY8%253d%26risl%3d%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=640&expw=445&q=sailor+jerry&simid=608055558287595322&ck=F2F44F0C86C8701810CA8B08B8457679&selectedIndex=31&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0

https://sailorjerry.com/en/
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Niederlander on March 06, 2021, 07:18:07 PM
They seem way too nicely stamped to be initials, which are usually carved in.  (At least in my experience.  I'm often wrong, by the way.)  I know I've seen a picture of Marines with these things.  Wish I could remember where.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Dave T on March 06, 2021, 08:36:37 PM
Am I correct in thinking that is a Remington-Lee? Or, is it something else I am totally unfamiliar with?

Dave
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: DJ on March 07, 2021, 07:05:20 AM
Looks like an M1882.

I believe the "NB" is for "Naval Brigade."

I like it.  Shot it yet?

--DJ
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: River City John on March 07, 2021, 08:02:13 AM
"C" a company designation? "42" the arsenal rack stamp?
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: DJ on March 07, 2021, 12:18:22 PM
Regarding the M1882 models, Myszkowski says in his "The Remington-Lee Rifle" that the Naval Brigade in question was the Naval Brigade of the Massachusetts State Militia.  He shows a photo with stamps in the buttstock laid out similar to your rifle .

If you go to Grand Muster as a naval militiaman, in addition to putting the uniform together, are you going to need a dialect coach?
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Major 2 on March 07, 2021, 04:24:39 PM
May be of some help
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: 1961MJS on March 07, 2021, 07:23:10 PM
Ummmm, Camp Jerry is a might far from water except during Nebrasky Thunderstorms n such.  Maybe Drydock's mobile headquarters needs an anchor...

Later
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: 38OVI on March 07, 2021, 07:37:34 PM
Any need of a spare magazine?  I've got one.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: pony express on March 07, 2021, 08:07:15 PM
Ummmm, Camp Jerry is a might far from water except during Nebrasky Thunderstorms n such.  Maybe Drydock's mobile headquarters needs an anchor...

Later


Somebody has to patrol the irrigation canal.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 08, 2021, 03:53:45 AM
Any need of a spare magazine?  I've got one.
YES! what will you take for it? Pm me. Also looking for a cleaning rod
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 08, 2021, 06:24:46 AM
Someones initials I suspect.

Sailor Jerry.  That sounds familiar . . .

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=B3c0AcjC&id=8239654F34639A9AE90AE9334989BDF715687C3D&thid=OIP.B3c0AcjCrVulbxBEPnMJvgAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR07773401c8c2ad5ba56f10443e7309be%3frik%3dPXxoFfe9iUkz6Q%26riu%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fi1319.photobucket.com%252falbums%252ft662%252ftattoodoblog%252fSAILOR%2bJERRY%252fflash1_zps58117df4.jpg%26ehk%3dpuEpnzoXDGNexvSkO4gTZnnL0%252bKMG8ZW4n281Z6pQY8%253d%26risl%3d%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=640&expw=445&q=sailor+jerry&simid=608055558287595322&ck=F2F44F0C86C8701810CA8B08B8457679&selectedIndex=31&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0
Almost makes me regret not having supported the inked arts. Almost
When did the Navy start marking their stuff USN? This one has US on the barrel, receiver and butt plate

Ys, Dave you are correct. I haven't shot it yet. I got my shot a couple of hours before I bought it and by the time I got home I really didn't feel very good. I did load the second magazine, and I'm not overy impressed with it. I wish the spring was heavier. I did read where the Army sent some of them to Ft. Randall SD for testing.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 08, 2021, 08:42:45 AM
Ok, after reading the article in American Rifleman, it appears to be a model 1882 produced for the Army, but some of them ended up in Navy hands after testing was complete. Strange part is that the serial number appears to fall in the M-1885 range. The rear sight appears to have been changed as for that serial number range it should have had the 1879 Trapdoor buckhorn instead of the Buffington.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: DJ on March 08, 2021, 10:21:40 AM
According to "The Remington-Lee Rifle," the Army bought a number of Lee rifles in the 1884-85 time frame and by late 1885 750 had been delivered and over 700 of those issued for troop trials.  In annual reports between 1886 and 1891 there are mentions  of Buffington sights on some of those rifles--possibly as unit replacements.  A Boston firm bought several hundred of the Remington Lees from the Army in 1891, and the Navy promptly inquired about buying them for the Massachusetts Naval Brigade.  Apparently a deal was struck and in 1892 208 of the former Army rifles were issued to the Naval Brigade.  The Brigade marked its rifles the way yours is marked, with letter, over numeral, over "NB"--some were stamped and some were painted.  Both the barrel and receiver should have "DFC" stampings for the Army's inspector, and there may also be a vestige of the original DFC Army cartouche in the stock, although the reports about the Massachusetts surplus dealer suggest some degree of refurbishing that could have affected the markings.

Sounds like a rifle with an interesting history--not very many of them took that journey.

--DJ
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 08, 2021, 11:27:22 AM
Thank you DJ
On this one you can kinda, sorta see where the cartouche was, but it isn't legible. I'll have to look more at the markings this evening.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 09, 2021, 08:15:49 AM
Hi DJ

Your description was almost like you were looking at mine except... of course the wood cartouches are, for all practical purposes, gone. I don't find the DFC on the barrel. Where would I look for it? The serial number falls well outside the range that would be expected. The serial number I'm seeing looks like 2340 or 2240. It's my understanding the the Navy put a second serial number on them? Could I be looking at the wrong one. Where would you look for the Remington applied serial Number? It does seem to have large chunks of old, dried and hardened cosmoline in places so some of the markings could be under there. I'm looking forward to giving her a good thorough cleaning.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Books OToole on March 09, 2021, 08:51:07 AM
In the for what it's worth column:

I knew an old guy who served in the "Naval Infantry" in WWII.

One of his stories involved shore duty guarding a cross roads intersection out in the desert in North Africa.  The roads were barely discernable and there was nothing for as far as he could see.  So he took off his helmet and used it as a stool to sit on.  And then along comes a staff car.  And guess who is in the staff car....

Books

Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Major 2 on March 09, 2021, 09:01:59 AM
Hopefully it wasn't Rommel  :o

Probably worse for him if it were Patton .
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: DJ on March 09, 2021, 10:01:18 AM
The facts presented are primarily based on Myszkowski’s "The Remington-Lee Rifle,” rather than my own research.  The conclusions, suggestions, and speculations are mine (and entirely my fault if they are way off base).

Early rifles were marked on the left upper receiver flat:
THE LEE ARMS Co. BRIDGEPORT CONN USA, PATENTED NOV 4th 1879” and had “E. REMINGTON & SONS, ILION, NY, USA, SOLE MANUFACTURERS AND AGENTS” on the left receiver wall.
“Later” guns had the same E. REMINGTON marking on the left upper receiver flat, instead of the Lee marking, and “PATENTED NOV 4th 1879” on the left receiver wall.

A total of approximately 11,000 M1882s were made:  Serial number range for Army trials guns should be between 8800 and 9900, and for other contracts between 8000 and 25,000.  Calibers were .45-70 for Army guns, and either .45-70 or .43 Spanish for other contracts.

Probably the three most obvious keys to narrowing your rifle down would be the manufacturer’s legend, the caliber, and the serial number.  In looking at your photos, I believe I see “LEE” and “CONN” on the upper flat, which would be consistent with an early M1882.   I wonder if you have missed or misread one or more digits on your rifle—a serial number in the 2000s should fall in the range of the M1879 rifles, which, while generally similar in appearance, are quite different from the M1882.  Not to put ideas in your head, but I would expect a four-digit serial number beginning with “8” or, more likely, “9.”  I would use a jeweler’s loupe and strong light to check the number closely.  It might help to swipe it with alcohol or light oil to help increase contrast.  And, of course, use a nonfiring dummy to check caliber—or check visually:  a .45-70 the chamber would have no “step” for the bottleneck of the cartridge. 

As to the trial guns, the barrel should be marked “US VP” ahead of the receiver, and “DFC” on the left barrel flat.  The receiver should have “US” below the legend (I cannot make that out on your photo) and “DFC” on the right receiver rail.  I don’t have an M1882, but I believe I have seen DFC stamps on similar era guns, and it is quite small.  The stock cartouche is described as a script “DFC” in a box, and behind the triggerguard there should also be a DFC over “P.”  Also be aware that at least some of the Naval Brigade guns were reportedly assembled by mixing and matching parts—the surplus dealer’s 250 rifles yielded a total of 208 serviceable rifles for the Navy’s purchase.

I also note that there were reportedly thousands of new and complete Remington Lees, likely including M1882s, in stock at the factory during the 1886 bankruptcy, and it would be a strange thing if some of those were not still available in 1891-92, when the Navy was buying rifles for the Naval Brigade.  So it would not be too much of a stretch to expect some non-Army trials (as in, non-DFC marked) guns with legitimate Naval Brigade markings.

Let us know what you figure out.

--DJ
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 09, 2021, 12:06:58 PM
Yes, It has the US and the VP on the barrel where one would expect. It has the US on the side of the receiver and DFC on the right receiver rail. It has the US on the butt plate. I didn't see a DFC on the left side of the barrel, but then if I remember correctly there is a fairly heavy scratch on the left side of the barrel below and behind the US VP.
It doesn't really "look" like a parts gun and it has all the US's where they are supposed to be so I really expect that it IS 45-70 as the seller said. Really the only thing that confuses me is the serial though it is quite possible that I am mis-reading it as it is quite small. I did try to read it in good light with magnification, but that doesn't mean I couldn't have mis-read it. I will look at it again.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Major 2 on March 09, 2021, 03:57:24 PM
It is very cool,  and Dj's text is very interesting , I'm enjoying this thread   :)
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: DJ on March 09, 2021, 04:50:03 PM
The factory serial number would be on the left receiver flat aft (towards the butt) of the manufacturer's information (except on the earliest Sharps-manufactured M1879s, where I believe they are on the same receiver flat but towards the muzzle).  Some serial numbers appear to be deeper than the other factory markings, and others seem to be very lightly struck.  My impression is that the five-digit numbers are generally shallower than the three- and four-digit numbers--perhaps a function of the slightly greater surface area with the additional numeral being stamped, but they often vary.  Alignment is often a little off and the variations can give the impression that "somebody" added it later.

For many Navy-issue rifles (as opposed to militia) the Navy added its own serial/inventory numbers, usually on the receiver rings, along with various inspector stamps.   

If you don't have one, get a jeweler's loupe--you can get one (or several in a set) for very little money at the "cheap tool store," and they reveal so much more than a magnifying glass.

--DJ
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Niederlander on March 09, 2021, 08:37:27 PM
It is very cool,  and Dj's text is very interesting , I'm enjoying this thread   :)
It IS a really cool rifle.  First one I've ever seen in the flesh.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 10, 2021, 06:18:30 AM
So I got home from the school board meeting last night and stripped it down. I had googled youtube videos on Remington-Lee disassembly and watched one on removal of the 1899 bolt. After much trial and error I finally found that it is quite different from the 1882 bolt. I soaked it down in Kroil and got to work with a bronze brush, a toothbrush and a screwdriver scraping and brushing the old caked on Cosmoline and grease and rust out of all the cracks and crannies. Action-wise I'm optimistic that it is going to be a lot smoother to operate once I put it back together. Barrel-wise I'm not nearly as optimistic of how well it will shoot. Lots more pitting going on than it looked with all the old grease in there. I still don't have it "clean" but it is cleaner and I will finish it up tonight

DJ, you were right. the serial number appears to be 8840. I still have not found the DFC on the barrel. I'm doubting that it is still there. That area of the barrel looks like it spent some time riding on a hard surface in the back of a jeep or a pickup or boat or some such.

I have found a couple more magazines and have a repro sling and cleaning rod coming from S&S

Hopefully, the barrel will be accurate enough to make a skirmish run on the stages at the Grand Muster this summer and who knows it might even still be able to ring the 300yd target.

Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: DJ on March 10, 2021, 07:05:19 PM
Here is an M1879 Remington Lee--slightly older cousin to your M1882.  The two most obvious differences are the bolt handle being in front of the rear receiver bridge and the Lee-Cook magazine instead of the Lee-Diss that yours uses.  The earlier Lee-Cook magazine used a sliding cartridge retainer to hold the cartridges in the magazine--apparently before the designers figured out how to make solid magazine lips that worked--the sliding button is on the left side of the magazine.

The Navy initially contracted for 300 M1879 rifles, and, after fulfilling that contract, Remington made about 1,000 more.  However, the additional rifles varied from the Navy contract by using a Remington Rolling Block-style rear sight instead of a Trapdoor-style buckhorn, and having a muzzle configured to take a (really) long Remington socket bayonet rather than a standard Trapdoor bayonet, leading to complaints about bayonet interchangeability.  The Navy later bought 700 of those "non-contract" rifles, and this particular example is one of those.  Receiver markings are similar to yours, but with a P over WMF Navy inspection mark on the barrel.  And, of course, no Army markings. 
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Silver Creek Slim on March 10, 2021, 08:00:59 PM
Very nice rifle.

Slim
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 11, 2021, 06:26:58 AM
Very nice rifle.
+1
That's yours DJ?
I finished getting mine clean last night. I'm not very optimistic about the barrel. I'll just have to see how it shoots. If it isn't very good, I guess I'll have a pretty cool wall hanger.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Niederlander on March 11, 2021, 07:15:35 AM
I'll bet it does better than you think.  I'd try it with Trail Boss loads as well as black powder.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 11, 2021, 08:22:15 AM
I'll bet it does better than you think.  I'd try it with Trail Boss loads as well as black powder.
I hope you're right.

It's pretty pitted most of it's length, but it's really rough about 2-3" from the muzzle. Before it was clean most of that didn't show up. Even if it shoots good enough for GAF matches, I'm pretty confident it won't be shooting any 5" groups at a 1/2 mile like my modern Remington will.

I'm planning to shoot it with Trailboss first but I really hope it shoots well with real BP.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 11, 2021, 08:28:12 AM
Also Ned if I don't find the m1879 rear sight that I think I still have, I will be wanting yours. The rear sight on this one is bent and the windage adjustment is pretty loose. Plus I'm not a huge fan of the Buffington.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Books OToole on March 11, 2021, 09:16:41 AM

Probably worse for him if it were Patton .


 ;D -  Patton chewed his but for nonchalantly sitting on his helmet.

Forrest reported to his officer after his tour. Explained what happened and his CO said of Patton. "#*@& him."
Forrest never heard another word.

Books
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Wooly Dan on March 12, 2021, 09:26:05 AM
Nice rifle.  Does this mean i need to be addressing you as Admiral Pit Spitter, and are we changing our organization name to Grand Navy of the Frontier?
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: 1961MJS on March 12, 2021, 10:03:02 AM
Grand Navy of the Plains, (GNOP).
Commodore Pit Spitter. 

If headquarters moves to Arizona we'd be the Grand Navy of the Desert.   ;D

Later
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 12, 2021, 10:50:23 AM
 ;D
Actually, there is a Nebraska Navy ( https://history.nebraska.gov/blog/great-navy-state-nebraska ) but I'm not an Admiral in it ( I keep hoping  :))

Also after learning more about this rifle, it was actually an Army rifle before it was in the Navy. (thank you DJ)

I have another magazine, a cleaning rod and a sling coming for it. It cleaned up pretty well except for the bore. I just don't know how that will be. I put it back together last night. Hopefully I'll get to try it out this weekend.

Ned, I did find that buckhorn sight (and another Buffington)
380VI, I did receive the Magazine. Thank you!
DJ, I think i did find the DFC on the barrel, but it is really faint
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Delmonico on March 12, 2021, 03:11:36 PM
;D
Actually, there is a Nebraska Navy ( https://history.nebraska.gov/blog/great-navy-state-nebraska ) but I'm not an Admiral in it ( I keep hoping  :))




This Admiral will see what he can do. ;)
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: DJ on March 12, 2021, 03:59:56 PM
Glad the rifle is working out--it really is a neat piece. 

As a trials rifle the Remington Lee was parceled out alongside the competing Winchester Hotchkiss and Chaffee-Reece rifles in 1885, reportedly to 149 different Army companies.  Somewhere I believe I read that included Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery units, but I cannot find that reference right now.  In any event, the 700+ rifles procured averaged out to about five rifles per company. 

So you have the Naval Militia option, or if you just keep your hand over the Naval militia marking so the inspecting officer can't see them, you can authentically represent any of a wide variety of Army units.

Be sure to post pics in uniform!

--DJ
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 13, 2021, 05:15:29 PM
And some of them went to a fort within a couple of hundred miles of here
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 22, 2021, 06:24:15 AM
In the last couple of weeks I've found and acquired a repro cleaning rod and sling and 2 extra magazines. I also installed a 1879 trapdoor "buckhorn" rear sight that I had on hand.

Yesterday I was able to get out and shoot it. I was using my Trailboss loads so it was quite pleasant to shoot and with that load I was pleasantly surprised at how well it shot. It appears to be one of those rifles that when I put it to my shoulder the sights just naturally align on the target. All of the magazines functioned well, even fully loaded.

Accuracy was better than I expected  given the roughness of the bore (I didn't try it on my long range steel targets) and seemed to be at least good enough for skirmish runs. Horizontally everything was in a nice straight line, though it did string some. It appeared that the m-1879 sight was sliding forward during recoil and adding elevation to the sight. (I'm going to have to figure that out)

I can't wait to get out and try some full power BP loads at 300 :D
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Drydock on March 22, 2021, 11:26:48 AM
I sense much coolness in your post.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 22, 2021, 11:56:12 AM
I sense much coolness in your post.
;D

It was the only one of the three rifles that I shot yesterday that I was really pleased with the way it shot.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Niederlander on March 22, 2021, 09:41:57 PM
Told you you'd like it..............
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 23, 2021, 08:20:48 AM
Told you you'd like it..............
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was waiting for the, “I told you so.”  ;D
Honestly, with as bad as the bore looks, I have no idea why it would shoot at all, but I'm happy it does
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Drydock on March 23, 2021, 02:08:27 PM
Sometimes the best way to clean these old bores is to shoot them.  Some pits turn out to be various bits of old crap and lead.  My shorty trapdoor I swear has over 100 years of lead blowby soldered to the metal by undersized smokeless loads.  The more I shoot it with proper BP loadings, the better it looks. 
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 23, 2021, 02:18:27 PM
Most of the pits in this one didn't show up until after I cleaned it. I was hoping that shooting it might help. It wasn't that I was afraid to shoot it; just afraid that I wouldn't be able to hit anything with it. ::)
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Drydock on March 23, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
Just make sure you have Ned shoot it, so you know it's the rifle and not you . . .




 ;)
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Niederlander on March 23, 2021, 05:22:41 PM
With my penchant for breaking guns, he may not want me to shoot it.  But I'd really like to!
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Major 2 on March 23, 2021, 05:33:41 PM
Have you considered fire lapping the bore ?

Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: 1961MJS on March 23, 2021, 08:45:48 PM
Hi
If you slug the bore and you have to tap the ball the whole way down, that's a good thing.  It don't always happen though.  In short, it could be worse.
Later
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 24, 2021, 06:09:09 AM
Just make sure you have Ned shoot it, so you know it's the rifle and not you . . .
Wouldn't that be the process if I couldn't hit anything with it?  ::)

With my penchant for breaking guns, he may not want me to shoot it.  But I'd really like to!
Oh, WTH. Ever since I bought the Spencer from you and had the front sight fall off before I had a chance to shoot it, it seems like you must have rubbed off on me 'cause I'm breaking guns at least as often as you. I broke my M1a last year for cripes sakes! :o How do you break an M1a? ::)

Hi
If you slug the bore and you have to tap the ball the whole way down, that's a good thing.
Yeah, that ain't happening. I already know that from cleaning it. There's a really rough, loose area about 2" in from the muzzle

Have you considered fire lapping the bore ?
I think I'll keep shooting and cleaning it and see what happens.
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Niederlander on March 24, 2021, 10:30:48 AM
I don't think you're in my league yet.  I've broken an M1A, an M1, a Remington 870, a Ruger Vaquero, a Mini 14................
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 24, 2021, 11:49:53 AM
I don't think you're in my league yet.  I've broken an M1A, an M1, a Remington 870, a Ruger Vaquero, a Mini 14................
Yeah...maybe not quite.

I've wore out a mini-14. Does that count?
Title: Re: US Navy?
Post by: Pitspitr on March 24, 2021, 01:00:15 PM
I found another magazine