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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => SCORRS => Topic started by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 10:50:51 AM

Title: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 10:50:51 AM
Good morning,
Yesterday I took possession of a few old firearms.  These have been in a wooden box up in a room above a shop for years.  Not in the greatest of shape but I'd like to get to know more about them and how to inspect/repair in order to shoot.  Along with the Mauser C-96, colt model 1872, Savage model 1899,  1918 Lee Enfield, Ranger 12 gauge, and a AMD percussion cap long gun of some sort, I found a Remington revolver.

I looked all over the internet, I'm not good at that sort of activity, and have determined it's what some call a model 1858, which is supposed to be a percussion gun.  This doesn't look like a percussion revolver but I read some were converted from percussion to cartridge.  This revolver seems to have a two piece chamber (cylinder ?), perhaps the back half was cut off and a non percussion part was attached?  I assume the cylinder with the six bores in it is called the chamber?

It has 'PATENTED SEPT 14. 1858' on the top of the barrel with 'E. REMINGTON & SONS ILION  NEWYORK U.S.A.'  underneath. There is a 'C' stamped on the right side of the barrel just ahead of the mainframe, an 'A' stamped on the left side of the barrel just ahead of the main frame, there are two 'J's stamped on the chamber near the rear 180 degrees apart from one another.  There is an 'S' stamped in the frame above the hammer pivot screw head on the left side, and an 'M' stamped on the left side of the frame just behind the brass trigger guard.

The serial number 33250 is stamped on the bottom of the barrel.

The gun has a tag attached to the trigger guard, it is an RCMP laboratories tag dated Nov. 5 1985.  It has a case number and an inspectors signature on it.  I don't know the history of the gun and whether it was involved in a criminal case or perhaps just some kind of gun registry. The owner has been dead for over 20 years, I got the firearms from his nephew. 

The back of the tag has the serial number-33250, the make-Remington, the Model-New Model Army, type-HG, action-R, caliber-.44, shots-6, barrel-200MM, rifling--------------.

So that's about all the info I have about this revolver and wonder how/where to look for info about the date of manufacture, what kind of ammo is it meant to shoot, where to find a schematic of parts and how to disassemble and inspect it.  And anything else about it that anyone can tell me.  Like what's the difference in a New Model Army and an Army Model, who used them, any significance about this particular model, etc.

Thank you in advance.
Al

Oh yea, this gun is dinged up and filthy, I have to get it apart and cleaned up, but in the meantime would I be hurting it if I took the grips off and just soaked the whole gun in solvent for a few days to eat some of the crud off?.

Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: DeaconKC on February 16, 2022, 12:30:02 PM
Okay, congratulations on a great find! There are a couple of us here familiar with the C96, so go ahead and ask questions. As to the Remington, yes there were conversions made. As far as soaking it, yes, remove the grips and then put it in some odorless Mineral Spirits overnight. This will soften up any old grease and fouling. Wipe it down and then take an old toothbrush to it to get off any gunk left there. Clean and oil normally.

And we love pics here!
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 01:21:31 PM
Thanks for the reply.
I looked up the Mauser and found a lot of info on it.  It's a Red 9.  It has the slot in the grip for attaching the buttstock, but alas, I couldn't find the buttstock or anything else that would have been with it.  I'll go back to the barn and look around for it.  The shop is full of old Hudsons, one banger industrial engines, riding and pack saddles, more wooden spoke wheels than I've ever seen and nothing new.  There were about 20 firearms and I was given seven, plus a couple disabled and beyond recovery ones, so I feel very fortunate, I think the Mauser was the newest item in the place, and it's in the best shape of any of the guns I got. It's a 9mm and after I learn how to strip it down and clean it I'll take it to the range.

Any idea on how to tell when this Remington was made?

Any idea how I can find out what cartridge and caliber it would use?  the RCMP tag said 44 caliber but I don't know if that would be before or after the conversion, it looks like the cylinder is just as old as the rest of the gun so I don't think it was bought in the last few decades. I found a box of old CIL made dominion cartridge 455 Colt cases in the box but I presume those would be for the Colt.
I also found a bullet mold and some lead bullets that I measured to 0.4295" which Wikipedia says fit the 44 S&W special, Remington 44 magnum and 44 S&W Russian, but there were a dozen other guns hanging around there of various calibers.

Any Idea where to look for disassembly instructions?  I'd hate to break something taking it apart.

I also got a cartridge belt with a holster but it's a left hand and I'm right handed, I'll go back and see it the right one is there.

Thanks again,
Al
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Major 2 on February 16, 2022, 01:44:40 PM
This is stuff of imagination, finding a stash of old firearms, car(s) or a motorcycle.
The thought makes me giddy.
Congratulations, maybe buying a Lotto is in order  :)

Please post photos
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Coffinmaker on February 16, 2022, 01:59:51 PM

For me, it would be of articular interest to see some photos of the Colt 1872.  If an Original Open Top, it will be chambered for .44 Henry Flat or .44 Stetson.  It will NOT be a .45

The Remington is interesting.  Period Remington were converted to other than a .45.  If later or a reproduction, the Remington will be .45 although the .455 cartridges pique my curiosity.  Don't think they will run in any of the old guns you have snagged.

Play Safe Out There

PS:  Pictures pictures pictures.  We all absolutely LOVE PICTURES!!
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 02:54:52 PM
Well I keep trying but can't get pictures to load onto the post.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Major 2 on February 16, 2022, 03:13:26 PM
Perhaps you have to reduce them in size
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 03:20:17 PM
Pictures
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 03:23:27 PM
And
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 03:37:05 PM
Man, I hate computers.  this is a pain.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Abilene on February 16, 2022, 03:40:01 PM
Your "Colt 1872" is an 1873 Single Action Army pre-war (mid-1890's or later.  The 1872 was just a patent date on the frame) and may be worth more than all the others combined.  What caliber?  The s/n will tell the year it was made.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 04:22:45 PM
OK I'll put up some Colt pics.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone posting Colt pics in a Reminton section.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 04:30:06 PM
And, 
The front screw that attaches the trigger guard is missing and the piece that keeps the cylinder from turning backwards is missing.  I believe the part that holds the cylinder is attached to the trigger guard with a piece of string.  I'll have to take it apart to see what's going on in there.  Maybe a broken spring or a missing fastener or...
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: River City John on February 16, 2022, 04:36:21 PM
OK I'll put up some Colt pics.  I hope it doesn't offend anyone posting Colt pics in a Reminton section.

We're not offended. We're jealous. A very nice cache' of firearms indeed.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Major 2 on February 16, 2022, 04:49:30 PM
offended ?  No      I'm envious !

Ditto To what RCJ said ...Jealous, .....& envious of your barn find :) 
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 05:02:58 PM
I'm having a hard time believing it happened.  A few of us were around a fire burning limbs from trees felled to make a turn around at the end of a ridge road.  I was telling of an old broken side by side shotgun that I was trying to fix for a buddy.  It had a guys name and 'The Mount' engraved in between the barrels. I discovered after a few hours, no days, on the computer The Mount is an old estate in England, and also discovered the owner of the gun was in the British Army and died during WWI. I even found the graveyard he's in.   My buddy and I decided we would fix the shotgun and try to track down surviving family members and see if they wanted us to ship it back to them in England.  One of the guys listening to my tale said he had a bunch of old guns that have been lying around his shop for 20 years and he wasn't going to ever use them and they were mine if I wanted.  Still pinching myself hoping I don't wake up.  I always hear of others finding a mint GOT or a Flathead Ford in a warehouse or barn.  I waited 72 years and now it's my turn.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: DeaconKC on February 16, 2022, 05:54:25 PM
Okay, you want to get the Wolff spring pack for that Mauser Broomhandle. Stay away from +P ammo with it. The Winchester White Box 115 grain FMJ is loaded very close to original factory specs from WW1, when your pistol was built. Actually Wolff will have springs for all the guns you have there. And I desperately want some info on what looks like a S&W in your pics.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 16, 2022, 06:31:22 PM
Which one is the S&W looking one?
I'm not a handgun guy, as you most likely deduced.  I shot a 1911 at  CFB Wainwright in the late eighties.  I was more into the FAL FN 7.62MM C1 A1 and  the 30 and 45 cal machine guns. I didn't take up handguns until about 10 years ago and all has been 45 auto.  But I'm a handgun guy now.  The majority of my shooting the last while has been 6.5 CM precision target and 45-70 anything I can hit.

OK I'll  google Wolff spring pack to know what your talking about as well as +P ammo.

Thanks for the replies.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: DeaconKC on February 16, 2022, 08:22:45 PM
The smaller hammerless nickel gun that is roughly in the center of your group photos. Like this one?
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Abilene on February 16, 2022, 11:18:37 PM
According to Colt, that SAA is from 1897.  The bolt (or cylinder stop) that is tied to the trigger guard is missing from the frame.  If the cylinder will rotate backward when the gun is pointed up but not when the gun is pointed down, then the hand (or pawl) spring is broken.  The left side of the gun shows the head of the trigger screw in place but it should protrude into the hole on the right side, which looks empty.  Probably a wrong screw. 

Uberti gripframe screws from the last number of years fit the Colt, so you could get the front triggerguard screw from them.  But considering the gun, it deserves a Colt screw, plus needs that trigger screw.  It looks fairly complete.  You really should spend the several hundred for a Colt letter.  I'm not an expert but it could be worth $2500 easily IMO. 

Oh, BTW, the Remington conversion is very cool, too!   :)
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 17, 2022, 11:07:30 AM
Thanks for that.
There's a place where one can get history for a gun using the serial number?

With the hammer cocked, the cylinder wont rotate backwards no matter what direction it is pointing, or what position I am holding the gun in.  But if I press the trigger back and move the hammer forward the cylinder will rotate backwards.

The nickle gun is an Iver Johnson safety hammerless 32 caliber five shot.  Looks to be about an 1898 DOM.  But it's been deactivated, has the barrel welded shut, the five chambers in the cylinder welded, the break latch at the top is welded as is the hinge.  Don't know why but I suspect one of the, in my opinion, ridiculous gun laws we have in Canada.  Not sure but I think barrels less that 4-1/2 inch are illegal.

I'm looking around for some breakdown and assembly instructions for the two revolvers, don't want to have a part fly across the garage to be lost forever while taking one apart out of sequence, then I will dismantle and inspect both to ascertain what parts I may need.

The other gun is a EIG pinfire, can't get any info on that one, I manage to find a couple that were sold at auction but no model numbers, just looked the same i the pic.  As far as I know pinfire is obsolete adn I can find no info as to what the DOM of the thing is, but I've only spent a few hours looking so far.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Professor Marvel on February 19, 2022, 09:44:55 PM
Greetigs My Good Mad Miles

you have hit a jackpot there alright.
i am sure others will comment on your highly desirable Red9 Mauser C96.

The colt revolver #173549 puts it at
Year of Manufacture 1897, Model SINGLE ACTION ARMY
as others have related, getting it "lettered" by Colt would be a great idea, it usually costs $100 to $200 USD

you can start here
https://coltarchives.com/
https://coltarchives.com/archive-letter-info
https://coltarchives.com/orders-%26-pricing

however, it is possible that Colt might not have any records on your pistol, please see this auction site as an example

https://www.ancestryguns.com/shop/early-1873-mfr-antique-colt-45-single-action-army-revolver-ivory-nickel-saa-rare-1st-year-4-digit-serial-number-saa-in-45-colt/

(https://www.ancestryguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Early-Production-Colt-Black-Powder-Frame-Single-Action-Army-Revolver-5.14.21-CR-Antique-0021-100x100.jpg)

The Remington revolver looks like the real deal, the 1863 New Model Army (often called the Mod 1858), the serial number 33250 puts it in the batch (serials 23000 to 6800 )
shipped in 1863.

your  "1858" conversion is a classic "thin plate" conversion, in which a thin steel plate is dovetailed or otherwise attched at the breech section of the frame,
and the cylinder is machined down at the rear to accept a thick cylinderical extension usually attached by brazing or silver solder, since
modern welding techniques were not yet developed, at which point both the original cylinder and extesion were drilled, reamed, and chambered for the
desired cartridge. The first factory conversions were usually .46 Remington, but non-factory conversions could be anything in the .44 heeled cartridges
on up. A chamber casting would tell you.

Can you possibley post a photo of the barrel engraving, the ser number and the numbers on the grip frame under the wooden grips?

If you get a chance to go visit the barn again, we would all LOVE to see photos of the stuff there!

I will see what I can dig up on your pinfire later

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 20, 2022, 10:02:30 AM
I found out about the wolff springs and now know what +P ammo is, thank you Deacon.

Abilene, the trigger pivot screw is broken, I found a site that has one and will get that coming on Monday.  Still looking for the Front trigger guard screw.  The colt is in pretty nice shape and fairly clean compared to the Remington, but I'll still dismantle both and make sure everything inside is what it's supposed to be.

Thanks for the links Professor. I took a couple pics of the numbers again.  Both under the barrel and under the grips there is a large 53, the 53 is about 4 times the size of the serial number. 

Perhaps the most interesting thing I found was a piece of old paper under the grips.  Looked to be linen paper.  The owner of the gun wrote about getting the converted cap and ball "six shooter" from his Dad for a birthday present.  that side is not dated.  On the other side he describes being on harvest leave , they did let farmers have leave during harvest time if the could to help bring in the crops during the war.  Doesn't say what country but he was from Alberta Canada. Under that he discribes the German army near Stalingrad, Russians holding how he expects a new front before freeze up and how he expects victory at the end of the war.  Another piece of history. 
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 20, 2022, 10:12:19 AM
I was afraid of flattening out the paper to get a pic but manage to without tearing it.
The pic of the paper in the hand frame is like it was when I took the grips off, I should have taken the pic yesterday when I first saw it but thought it might have been info as to the caliber and cartridge he was using.

Thanks for all the guidance, it's been interesting.  But I'm not getting any work done, just plopped in front of the computer screen, or scrubbing guns in the Varsol tank.  I have a camshaft to degree, a deck to replace, a....
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Major 2 on February 20, 2022, 11:02:09 AM
What a treasure trove time capsule WOW !
The paper should stabilized and framed, maybe with the gun in a two-sided glass shadow box.

Very Very Cool
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: DeaconKC on February 20, 2022, 12:58:55 PM
Glad I was able to help a bit. And Thank You for posting the pics of that note, what an awesome find!

PS: Will you take a used kidney for that Broomhandle? ;D
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Trailrider on February 20, 2022, 06:55:53 PM
I was afraid of flattening out the paper to get a pic but manage to without tearing it.
The pic of the paper in the hand frame is like it was when I took the grips off, I should have taken the pic yesterday when I first saw it but thought it might have been info as to the caliber and cartridge he was using.

Thanks for all the guidance, it's been interesting.  But I'm not getting any work done, just plopped in front of the computer screen, or scrubbing guns in the Varsol tank.  I have a camshaft to degree, a deck to replace, a....

Aw, you don't want to mess with all that old iron. Just send it all to me. I'd even pay the postage.  ::)

Seriously, what a lucky find! The only thing about researching things like that is that it can become addictive! I should know. I tracked the history of a Sharps carbine and the youngster who worked for the Army as a teamster, 1875-76... off and on for over forty years, and am still tracking some of his relatives!  :o

Have fun. Stay well and safe!
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Cap'n Redneck on February 21, 2022, 12:38:57 PM
Regarding the pinfire:  does it have the letters "ELG" stamped inside an oval?
If so, then it was proofed in Liege, Belgium in 1892 or earlier.
From 1893 the Liege Proofhouse added a small crown on top of the oval.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 21, 2022, 02:25:46 PM
Yup, Cap.n, it does,  on the cylinder an E then below an L and G.  I thought the L was an I but it is in kinda rough condition.   Right below the oval is an M
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Cap'n Redneck on February 21, 2022, 04:18:56 PM
The "M" would be a sub-inspectors mark. 
Judging from the photo I'd guess it's a 7mm or 9mm calibre?
These were inexpensive "Saturday night specials".
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 22, 2022, 04:27:16 PM
Great thanks for the info.

I think I've got the Remington identified.  I talked to one of the Cascity members today for about 45 minutes,  He seemed quite sure it's a transition gun with a type one armourer 's conversion in 44 caliber.  Great guy to talk to and new quite a bit about these guns.  Now I just have to get ammo and see if it fits and shoots.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: River City John on February 22, 2022, 04:41:08 PM
(Just a note of caution, do not use modern ammunition loaded with smokeless powder.)
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Professor Marvel on February 22, 2022, 11:52:41 PM
Great thanks for the info.

I think I've got the Remington identified.  I talked to one of the Cascity members today for about 45 minutes,  He seemed quite sure it's a transition gun with a type one armourer 's conversion in 44 caliber.  Great guy to talk to and new quite a bit about these guns.  Now I just have to get ammo and see if it fits and shoots.

.44 Remington Conversion ammunition is not usually found in the stores.
Best to get it looked at by a qualified "old timey guns" expert and achamber casting.
The bore will take a .451 to .454 lead bullet (best to slug it to be certain)
And it will probably be a .44 Remington healed cartidge which should not be confused with the
.44 Remington CF which was made for the Remington Model 1875...

I will have to do some research to see what the appropriate cartridge will be....



Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on February 25, 2022, 04:27:28 PM
I spun the barrel off the pinfire.
The cylinder chambers are approx. .3265" at the rear, .3065" and at the the front.
The throat of the barrel is approx .294.  I Don't have a ball small enough to slug it.

I just took the measurements with a caliper so I don't expect them to be exact.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on March 11, 2022, 09:48:24 AM
I took the barrel off the Remington to slug it. Couldn't think of a way to tap the lead down the barrel without harming the gun otherwise.  With the barrel off I could put it into a soft jaw vise with a wooden support under the barrel end.  I pushed one slug straight through and another just and inch or so into the muzzle end then back out.  The rifling is 5 right which made it difficult to measure.  I couldn't just measure straight across the lands and the grooves like I could if it was a even number barrel.  I could measure land to groove.  I got a few tips and advice from some gunsmith types over in the Shooters' Forum, that and a few other measureing tools I have lead me to decide I have a .435" bore with .449" grooves.

So that solves one of my problems, at least now i know what the bore size is.

So, now to bullets.  I have found a guy who makes heeled bullets with a .427" heel and a .449" sealing ring, a larger diameter such as .451" may be better, I don't know but this is the only guy I could find in the country who has a stepped bullet mould (mold?)  He casts bullets for his own use, I don't know if I can talk him into making and selling some to me.  The closest brass I can find that will (maybe) fit into the chambers and have a small enough rim to clear the ratchet post is the 44 colt.  It has a .451 neck and .427" mouth so will work.  I slugged the cylinders at .451" so I may have to hone them a touch.  Will also have to get, devise, make, buy some type of crimper along with a die set.  But getting bullets will be the next on my list.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Drydock on March 16, 2022, 08:29:02 PM
You need to get over to the www.coltforum.com and let some of the experts have a look at that SAA.  I also would be leery of doing anything to that Remington.   That not a common item at all, you do not want to damage or alter it.   
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: AntiqueSledMan on March 17, 2022, 05:46:23 AM
Hello Bad Miles,

It does indeed sound like it was converted to .44 Colt Original.

Here's what I have listed for dimensions.

Rim - .483"
Base - .456"
Neck - .455
Bullet - .451" with .429" Heel
Case Length - 1.100"
Cartridge OAL - 1.5"

The cartridges I load for my Pietta/Howell Conversion end up with an OAL of 1.555",
which leave plenty of clearance in the Howell cylinder.
It's a fun cartridge, but don't hot rod that old iron, keep your loads light.
I shoot a LEE 450-200-1R Black Powder Bullet with a Heel swagged on the base.

AntiqueSledMan.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: 38OVI on March 17, 2022, 09:18:03 PM
I tried to see if I could find Loren G. Cornell on Fold3.com, but there are only 2% of the Canadian Military records available.  Tried ancestry.com which led to www.findagrave.com  Loren G. Cornell, born in Alberta 21 August 1923, died 31 January 2015.  Memorial # 194059454 age 91
Just a thought it could bee him.
Title: Re: Help identifying a remington revolver
Post by: Mad Miles on March 18, 2022, 11:19:24 AM
Thank you.
The Colt is a pretty solid gun.  The cylinder stop bolt was attached to the trigger guard with a piece of string.  It's broken.  Also has a broken trigger screw.  I have a screw and bolt coming in the mail.  The front trigger guard screw was missing but I have found one and installed it.

The Remington is in a bit rougher shape but I'm getting it together piece by piece.  I found a hand for it and have the thing cycling fine.

The person in Ontario is going to sell me some of his heeled bullets and I have brass so I'm set to load up some mild rounds to test fire.  He sent me a dummy round with the hand.  Fit in the cylinders nicely.  I put a primmer in the case and shot the round into the barrel.  It stopped about half way down and I tapped it out the muzzle.  Seems to have the lands and grooves nicely formed and looks like it's going to seal the barrel OK.

That's him, I now have the registration papers for the firearms and he last registered them in 2007.  I also have his firearms licence born 1923 issued in Alberta. 

Thanks again