1851 Front Sight

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I have to put a higher front sight on a Pietta .44 cal 1851 Non-Navy-cause-it-never-even-existed-in-the-first-place. Smokey Dave gave me the inspiration to turn it into a Dance wannabe. I found a photo of a Dance & Brothers with a octagonal barrel so that's the way I will go. Not that I can't file and sand the barrel round but because it will be a bit out of the ordinary, and I dislike ordinary.

I'll work it over with Pettifogger's 1851 tune-up tips and make this thing a fun shooter.

So, what I need to know is what is the best way to put a taller front sight on the thing? I could do a dovetail but I've never done that and really don't know how to approach it. I can silver solder one in like Smokey Dave did but I've never done that either. To complicate things, the dovetail for the rammer lug is directly under the front sight so I have to fill that dovetail first. So for a total newb at front sights, what is the best way to get the job done? Any good suggestions on the rammer lug dovetail, too?

Here's the thing as it is right now.



Here's the lower dovetail. I''ll file the retainer to fit the barrel and draw file it smooth but there will be a line around it. At least I expect there will. Solver solder that in, too, then draw file it off? Braze it in?



All input on this is welcome.

[Abilene]

Make a taller brass front post?  1/8" welding rod or

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I thought about that but I can't imagine one of those staying in the barrel, considering how tall it needs to be. I haven't calculated it out but it shoots really high. I intend to start with 3/8" and file as needed. A 3/8" piece of welding rod will look hokey at best.

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[Coffinmaker]

   Well, golly Gee Whiz   

I'm afraid you have already Poo Poo'd the Good/Best/Only way to do it.  Yes your going to have a line around your filler for the rammer lug.  It is the way of it.  Unless you re-blue the whole thing.  So, based on your beginner status.  Skip it.  You're in need of professional help    

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks for the input. I'm not afraid of re-bluing the thing. With the other stuff I'll do to it, it will need that anyway. I've just have never done a front sight installation. I'm leaning toward getting some brass flat stock and make a blade to install like Smokey Dave did. I may try filling around the rammer lug with silver solder, too. When I defarb the writing on the sides of the barrel, I can smooth that out, too.

[Coffinmaker]

   Marshal Will   

Well now.  Then lemme put fourth a suggestion.  My Evil twin was gazing upon your 1851 photograph and started whispering in my ear.  I have a pair of 1851 Conversions, by Uberti  (I know I know I always yell I don't like Uberti)     I also have a pair of Open Top guns by Uberti (I know I know I always yell I don't like Uberti)      I (of course) did not like the OEM barrel length (some surprise, yes) so I sit them to something more in keeping with MY idea of wonderful.  I cut them at the end of the Ejector housing (+ a sixteenth).  The look is TOO KOOL fer SKULE!!   It also eliminates that pesky rammer lug.  I know, My Uberti guns didn't have rammer lugs.  OEM conversions.  HOWEVER:

I also have a pair of Pietta 1860 Army pattern guns (Wish they had been Navy Pattern) that came with OEM 8 inch barrels.  I did the same thing.  I allowed Hacksaw MacGurk to have his way and cut 'em at the Ejector Housing.  The balance is SUPERB.  On all of these guns, I also Dovetailed new Solid Brass front sights.  Righteous.  The look is just TOO RIGHT.  If Desired, I can eMail some Tin Types to your Hacienda.

Also.  Suggest you consider running Cowboy 45 Special cases in your Pietta Never Never.  they run a treat.  Especially with the Barnstormer Bullets.  And APP.  Oh Yesssssssssssss.

Hide and Watch

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Now those are some good ideas. I already use the C45S cases in it and agree with your assessment there. I haven't found bullets I like in them yet but that will come.

The light definitely came on about cutting the barrel a bit. What an idea. It's almost too obvious and certainly less work than filling the rammer lug dovetail. As to balance, I never particularly liked 4-3/4" barrels on SAAs. On an open top design, though, it might just be acceptable, or even good! I guess there's only one way to find out. Now where did I lay that hacksaw?

As to the dovetail, I do like the look of a dovetailed front sight on an octagon barrel. I just havemnt done it before.

So, yes pics would be great. I'll pm you my email. Thanks for the great ideas.

[Johnson Barr]

Try lowering your powder charge and bullet weight to lower your point of impact. I have good luck using Hornady lead round balls well crimped in the case mouth. I started using 45CS with 12grs. APP 3Fg with a 0.7cc Lee scoop of Quaker grits to fill to the case mouth. Recently NCOWS placed 45CS brass on the 'unapproved list', so I've changed to using .455 Webley brass from Starline and purchased .455 Webley dies from Lee. I load the same .451 Hornady round ball over 16grs. APP 3Fg. Pics are of 8" paper plate targets with 3" sticky's at 15 yards. Last pic is side by side 45CS and .455 Webley round ball loads. 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Lowering the load and/or bullet weight are good suggestions. I may do that in the future. It will all have to be re-assessed after I get the project finished anyway.

Using round balls hadn't occurred to me although I have used 180 gr RNFP bullets and they do great in some applications. I might also try the RB idea.

I like those Webly loads. I don't shoot NCOWS because it's over 1000 miles to the nearest club but that doesn't keep me from being historically correct with my loading.

You've given me a lot of good information to think over. Thanks for that.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

One quick question about the Webley cases, JB. Does the thinner rim on the case cause any problems over the thicker C45S case rims?

[Johnson Barr]

Lee dies have the proper shell holder in the 3-die set. 455 Webley rims are larger in diameter than Colt rims as well as being slightly thinner. I have not had any issues with the 'go bang' in any of my Italian guns chambered for .45 Colt. Acme Bullets casts a 160gr. RNFP bullet, but I have found it too shoots higher than Round Balls with the same powder charge. As a side note; I have started loading Round Balls in all my BP OT conversions. A closer point of aim with factory sights is CAS target acceptable with an adjusted powder charge. Think 'cap-n-ball' loads with store bought brass cases.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks for the additional information. Obviously I'll have to include .451 round balls in my thinking when I start looking for accurate loads.

"Think 'cap-n-ball' loads with store bought brass cases."
I'll remember that.

[Yeso Bill]

I live a long way from a gunsmith and wanting dovetail front sights on my Henrys, I decided to cut my own.  Having never done it before, I ordered a jig:

Sold at Dixie:
https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/7019/category/355/category_chain/350,351,355/product_name/MT3700+DOVETAIL+CUTTING+GUIDE   or at Jedediah Starr:

https://www.jedediah-starr.com/closeup.asp?cid=90&pid=918

I'm sure they are the same jig.  I ordered from Jedediah Starr.  And I ordered the safe files from Brownells, plus built some by grinding on three corner hardware files.

I then practiced on schedule 80 PVC pipe, graduated to steel pipe and then took a deep breathe and did the guns. 

Depending on the sight you use, I believe pistol sights have a different angle and aren't as deep.  If you go this route, Coffin Maker or others can elaborate. 

The thing about this jig is on an octagon barrel, it can be shimmed up for a shallower cut or loosened and slid one way or another for a wider or narrower cut.  It can't get cock eyed. 

For sure, obtain your front sight first (and measure it about ten times) as I have observed with my factory rifles that all 3/8s" dovetails aren't equal.

If you are near a good smith, I'd suggest that route as I probably spent enough money and sweated enough blood to have the job done by a gun-smith.  But, having done it, I wouldn't hesitate to do another. 

Years ago I took a TOW Hawken rear sight and a TC Renegade in to who I thought was a good gunsmith to have him cut a rear dovetail for it.  This he did but he didn't bother to file off the round sprue on the bottom of the dovetail part of the rear sight,  This was counted in on his measurement and cut.  So, after he installed it, you could see plenty of daylight on each side of the sprue.  I was just sick about it and never forgot it.  Leave nothing to chance.

Billy   

[Smokey Dave]

Marshal Will, I'm sorry I'm late to the party. I was going to suggest cutting the barrel down, to eliminate the loading lever latch. Sometimes it's the easiest solution. If you don't want to do that, I believe Track of the Wolf sells dovetail sight bases, without a sight on them. That would work to fill the dovetail, but would require fitting and probably a re-blue.

As for the sight, soldering a little taller post in is pretty simple. You could start tall, and file down as you sight it in. You may find it's not going to be as tall as you think. It's the easiest route, and is fully reversible if it looks hokey to you. 

If you decide to do a dovetail sight, there is a jig for cutting the dovetail in with a file. It's not expensive, and it's pretty fool-proof. The name of it escapes me, but I'm sure it will turn up in a search.

If you're unsure about soldering the sight, just let me know. I have the full instructions, with pictures, up on another gun board. I'll be happy to direct you there if you'd like.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Bill, the dovetail guide I have is the same one you used. It is too deep for a pistol but I figured I can use spacers to keep it shallower as needed. Dave, I see that idea is a good one as you also suggested it.

I may just make a dovetail sight from scratch and cut the dovetail to fit. I can see a bit of hand work will be in order but nothing insurmountable. The photo I have of the Dance with the octabonal barrel does have a front sight that looks dovetailed so I may try to make one similar to that but with a taller blade.



Coffinmaker sent me a photo of his with the barrel shortened as you mentioned, Dave. It looks like the simplest solution by far. I may do just that.

I'm glad I started this thread. You all have given me some great direction.

[Yeso Bill]

Will,
     If you don't already have these, feeler gauges make excellent shims.

https://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Universal-Standard-Thickness-Measuring/dp/B07XPD9L1C/ref=zg_bs_10112916011_5?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J9QMRQ3DCXK6DZ81CD8V

Billy

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks, Bill. In addition to the ones I use for automotive work and guitar setup, I have two additional sets ready to come apart as needed. I figured they would do the trick. Some things just make sense, I guess.

[Smokey Dave]

Hey Marshal, something else I just thought of. If you don't want to cut the barrel, you could cut the latch base. Just cut it off flush with the barrel and dress it down with a file. That would be a pretty easy route to take. And since you're not going to use the loading lever anymore, you've lost nothing. Even if you decide you don't like it. It's worth a try.

Then all you need to worry about is, how you're going to do the sight. But it sounds like you've decided on cutting a dovetail for it like the Dance you're using for inspiration.

Looking forward to seeing how you tackle it all.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

You brought up a good point about filling the rammer lug dovetail. If I don't like it, I can always cut it off and go that route. I may want to do that just for practice to see how good a job I can do. I do like the shortened barrel, though. Another reason to not cut it yet is to give myself a shot at fitting a front sight when I can always cut it off if it's a trash job. Damn, just when I decide which way to go, one of you comes up with another good idea. I'll be sure to post photos as I go so everyone can be amazed at follow my progress, good or bad. LOL

I did dig out the rammer lug the other day. I found it in about the 30th box I looked in (there's a Murphy's law just for things like that). I also dug out a piece of .032 piano wire to make a new handspring. I've done those before and they work great. For some reason these Italian pistols have raunchy handsprings that break right away. It's a good thing, though, because since I'm messing with it, I'll harden the end of the hand itself so it wears better.

The other day I checked the barrel fit on the arbor per Pettifogger's method and it's only a thousandth or two snug when slid on. I guess nothing needs to be done there. One step forward already and I haven't done a damn thing.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Well, I decided it was time to start on this project. Even though I haven't decided exactly how to make the front sight, there is a lot to do and it was time to get going. It's good to start with a working pistol so I replaced the broken handspring today. I made it out of .032 Piano Wire. I press fit the flattened end of the wire into the hand and shaped the wire. Then I tried it in the pistol and it works fine. This is probably the third one I've done this way and had good service out of them. I did forget to harden the end of the hand first so that may need to be addressed at some time in the future.