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CAS TOPICS => Gun Reviews => Topic started by: Crooked River Bob on April 05, 2019, 12:19:22 PM

Title: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crooked River Bob on April 05, 2019, 12:19:22 PM
Howdy, Gentlemen (and the rest of you varmints)

I would consider myself reasonably knowledgeable about muzzleloading firearms in general, but reproduction percussion revolvers are in a class of their own.  I have some experience with those and I own a Colt Blackpowder 2nd Generation 1851 Navy.  I have a number of references, including Adler's book on Colt blackpowder revolvers, and my dad had some original revolvers (although not a dragoon) which we shot when I was a kid.  So, I think I have a handle on the historical background.

Anyway, I'm thinking of getting a Second Model Dragoon revolver.  I'm not a collector.  I take good care of my guns, but if a firearm comes to live at my house, it should expect to work for a living.  It seems that Uberti has cornered the market on the Dragoons.  I don't think anybody else is making them at this time.  The Uberti Second Model Dragoons are widely available... Taylor's and Cimarron have them, and Dixie has them on sale right now at a very attractive price.  However, I'm seeing mixed reviews, which suggests the quality control may be inconsistent. 

I have also located two Colt Blackpowder Second Generation (not Signature Series) Second Model Dragoons, unfired, both at prices I would consider very reasonable, although it is certainly more than Dixie is asking for their Uberti.  I would pay the difference for a better revolver.  So, given the choice of a new Uberti from Dixie, Cimarron, or Taylor's, or an unfired Second Generation Colt Blackpowder version of the same revolver (I've seen mixed reviews of these, also), which do we believe would be a better choice for a shooter?

Second question, which is somewhat unrelated:  Taylor's Firearms (https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/blackpowder-revolvers/1858-remington-collection.html) lists an impressive array of 1858 Remington revolvers (I know, the teminology may not be exactly correct, but that's what they are calling them).  These range in price from $314.00 to $555.00, depending mostly on material and finish.  They show one near the lower end of the price spectrum with a "casted" steel frame, while most of the others in steel have forged frames.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of cast versus forged frames, in terms of precision, durability, and overall quality?  Also, it appears Pietta is making 1858 Remingtons and I'm interested in hearing how they compare to Uberti versions of this same revolver.

So, just to recap, here are three (hopefully) straightforward questions:

1.  Given the choice of a new Uberti replica of a Colt Second Model Dragoon revolver or an unfired Colt Blackpowder Second Generation version of the same firearm, which would be a better choice for a shooter?

2.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of a cast versus a forged frame on an 1858 Remington replica, from a shooter's standpoint?

3.  Given the choice of a new Uberti 1858 Remington revolver or a Pietta version of the same firearm, which would be a better choice for a shooter?


All knowledgeable responses which address any or all of the three questions will be appreciated and considered.

Much obliged,

Crooked River Bob

 
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 06, 2019, 09:25:34 AM

You've asked multiple questions.  However, there is a single explanation for all.  Well, not really.  There are actually several applicable points.  Colt Second Generation percussion guns were made up from a pile of Uberti parts.  Not Colt parts.  Uberti parts.  So those guns have all the same problems associated with Uberti guns.  They will need work.

While any of the current crop of percussion guns will work right out of the box (maybe), none of them will work well.  They will all need work.

Remington reproductions as well.  They will need work too.

I don't collect.  Ergo, I see no reason to pay any more for a Second Generation Colt example than a New Uberti from Cimarron.  ALL of the Colt 2d Gen BP guns I have worked on were pretty to look at, but trash on the insides.

I find Pietta guns easier to set up.

I have never noticed a "Cast" vs "Forged" frame in advertising.  I'll have to look.  I'm not a true Metallurgist.  I don't know that one is better/worse that the other.  I do know Ruger frames are ALL cast.  Nobody seems to mind.

OK,  I don't like Remington.  At all.  A Remington barks my fingers something fierce.  So I can't recommend a Remington at all.  YMMV
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Cliff Fendley on April 06, 2019, 12:04:33 PM
Actually in my limited experience I've found the Colt ones to be the worse of all and current production about as good out of the box as they have ever been.

It's as if the Colt 2nd gen ones were just going to be collected and looked at and never meant to fire. I've seen some with the timing and arbor fit so bad they probably were not even that safe to shoot.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crooked River Bob on April 06, 2019, 12:06:09 PM
Thank you, Coffinmaker and Cliff Fendley.  I did indeed ask multiple questions, and you responded to all of them, which I appreciate. 

I was aware of the Uberti/Colt Blackpowder connection, and the use of Uberti parts, but I thought the Colt Blackpowder guns might have been assembled from those parts with more care.  Evidently not.  I have not shot my Colt Blackpowder 1851 Navy much, but my limited experience with it suggested it could benefit from some gunsmithing to improve the action and timing.

Taylor's offers a service they call "Taylor Tuning" for their "suppository" revolvers (breechloaders, for the uninitiated).  I contacted them and asked if their gunsmith would go over and optimize their percussion revolvers, but the answer was "We do not offer tuning services on the blackpowder guns mostly because if you lighten them up they will not be able to set off some of the very hard caps that are on the market today."   Well, there is a lot more to tuning a revolver than lightening the springs, but I let it go.

So, it sounds as if the Uberti Dragoon may be the way to go, and leave the Colt Blackpowder Dragoon to be a "cabinet queen" for collectors.  Too bad Pietta doesn't make these!

Regarding the Remingtons:  I had a pair of Uberti 1858 Remingtons purchased new maybe 14-16 years ago, but never got around to shooting them.  They could have used some work.  The actions were a little rough in both, one had a slight timing issue, and cylinders were very difficult to remove and replace.  In any event, my son took a shine to them and I ended up turning them over to him.  Not sure if he still has them.  My dad had an original Remington which we shot occasionally when I was a kid.  It was a gem.  I don't have it, but I believe it's still in the family.

I believe Ruger championed the use of precision castings in firearms manufacture, and I have no prejudice against cast frames.  I was just curious as to why makers and sellers would utilize or specify one or the other.  You can take a gander at this, if you're interested: Taylor's 1858 Remington Page (https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/blackpowder-revolvers/1858-remington-collection.html?p=1).  The piece with the "casted" frame, made by Uberti, is in the third row, middle column on the first page, with a price tag of $347.00.  The last gun on the second page, also a Uberti, is described as having a forged frame and is priced at $398.00.  Evidently, Uberti values their forged frames higher than the cast ones, but I don't know if there is any practical difference.  The revolver shown on the first page, third column, top row, is made by Pietta and costs $314.00.  They don't specify whether the Pietta revolver has a cast or forged frame.  All three of these guns appear virtually identical to me.  The only difference I can find is the Pietta has a fixed blade front sight, and the Ubertis have dovetailed front sights.

In any event, I appreciate your comments, and will look forward to further discussion.

Best regards,

Crooked River Bob
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Professor Marvel on April 06, 2019, 07:28:57 PM
Greetings My Good Bob -

As Coffin and Cliff pointed out, the Italian BP revolvers all need some work "out of the box". They have gottne better in recent years, but
everything at least needs a "fluff and buff" and Uberti Colts all need the arbor adjustment plus more.

the following are just my opinions.
1) personally, if at all possible,  I prefer to physically handle any Dragoon rather buy sight unseen via mailorder.
    if that's not possible, then it seems the choices are "cheapest available" (like cabelas) vs somepolace like Taylors or Cimmaron
    or EMF that might offer "hand selected" at a premium.

2) once you have it in hand, play with it a tish, then send right off to Mike at Goon Works for a proper tune up and arbor corrections.
   I trust his work over "something" done at Taylors.

3) cast vs forged:  Whilst Ruger et al have achieved marvleous wonderment with modern cast steel technologies,  I don't think the
Italian C&B revolvers are anything close. when folks port a C&B revolver fort a loadiong gate, they often find casting voids.
It is important to remember the  Italians are building to a price point - they even use common red brass instead of a slightly more expensive
and much stronger "gunmetal bronze" .

So , knowing this, and what I know about mass production forgings, given the choice of 1858 Rem  Italian C&B pistols  I might  prefer a forged frame. However, that is merely a preference on my part, and I actually prefer Piettas over Ubertis.

Uberti "used to be" better at fit and finish , but Pietta has converted to CNC a while back and I don't see much difference.
Ubertis are smaller, more correc to the original, Piettas are larger, and fit my hand better.
Ubertis cost more, Piettas cost less.
UIbertis seem to need more tinkering , Piettas not so much.

If you want "the best" 1858 and cost is less relevant, you might consider some Santa Barbara Remingtons (no longer made)  , or the costly "Shooters Models".

hope this helps
prof marvel
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Abilene on April 06, 2019, 07:51:01 PM
Crooked River Bob, I'm going to do some reminiscing here about stuff I'm not 100% on, so don't take this as gospel.  Several years back when Uberti started producing the '58 conversion, they beefed up the frame and cylinder a bit, size-wise, and I think that's when they went to the forged frame.  When first announced (pre-production) in the gun rags, the gun was supposed to come with (or be available with) a percussion cylinder as well.  But it turned out to take too much fitting for them both to function well so they dropped the dual/purpose setup.  But they continued to use the new frame for the percussion guns.  I was part timing at Cimarron then and recall there being two separate bins of '58 percussion cylinders, for the new/larger and old/smaller guns.  Seemed to me at the time that this could cause a headache for guys who like a lot of pre-loaded cylinders and end up with mixed size guns, but I haven't heard people complaining.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Professor Marvel on April 06, 2019, 08:09:37 PM
Say Abilene, have you ever considered moonlighting as a "consultant" to wander over and "hand pick" for folks?

yhs
prof mumbles
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Abilene on April 06, 2019, 09:32:48 PM
Might be fun, but it's a hundred mile wander.  :)
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 06, 2019, 09:39:29 PM
First of all, thanks  for the recommendation Professor !!

 CRB, I basically agree with all the others here. The revolvers made in the '70s were basically abysmal. They had big chuncky parts that appeared to whittled out with a hatchet. This includes the Colt 2nd gens as well.
Today's Italian offerings are much better and for a class "A" shooter, a much better foundation to work with. Since I work on Uberti's and Pietta's, I'll not pick a favorite.  Suffice it to say Pietta's don't have the arbor problems (just some adjustment) but action parts need more work while the Uberti's have very nice action parts but have the arbor problem to deal with. As for the Remington pattern (and also mentioned), Pietta's are physically larger but Uberti has the adjustable front sight and the forged frame. Personal preference. 
   So I guess what everyone is saying is, if having a "pony" isn't the most important thing, new is best!!! (Otherwise, your screwed!! )

Mike
   
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Professor Marvel on April 07, 2019, 02:27:58 AM
I am happy to beat the drum for you Mike!

Whilst cooking some Brats for dinner I reminisced over forging vs casting and a couple of thoughts burbled
to the top of the swamp brain, to wit:

which is more desirable,
 a cast axe head or a forged axe head
 a cast knife blank or a forged knife blade
 a cast cold chisel or a forged cold chisel
etc etc.

I generally prefer forged over cast for the following reasons:
  they start with hot rolled steel stock - this squishes and aligns things nicely ( "grain" if you will )
 - they take the hot rolled steel stock , heat it red, and feed it into giant hammer forging machines, thus squishing it more and
   "compacting" the steel. 

forging is admittedly an old-school process, and as an amatuer blacksmith I am prejudiced in favor of it.

here is some propoganda from an an tique metallurgical handbook/textbook

Advantages of Drop Forging:
(1) Good grain flow is achieved.
(2) Faster speed of operation.
(3) Good strength of material is obtained.
(4) Little or no wastage of material.

Disadvantages of Drop Forging:
(1) Die preparation is a costly process.
(2) Die impression requires a good skill of work.
(3) Die maintenance is costly.

yhs
prof mumbles
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crooked River Bob on April 08, 2019, 07:28:34 PM
Thanks to all who responded.  This has been very informative.

If anybody who followed this thread is interested in knowing more, check this out:  Second Dragoons On Trial (https://www.gun-tests.com/issues/18_7/features/Second-Dragoons-On-Trial-We-Rank-Cimarron-Colt-and-EMF-5343-1.html#.XKveeHdFyM_)

The link takes you to an online article by Gun Tests magazine.  The article was evidently published in July, 2006, but I just found it today.  I always read magazine reviews with some skepticism because the writers are evidently afraid to say anything negative.  Not these guys!  They tell it like it is.  They compared three Second Model Dragoon replicas:  a blued Cimarron (by Uberti), an EMF with antique finish (also by Uberti), and a Second Generation Colt Blackpowder model, made by Iver-Johnson with I-J and Uberti parts.  I learned a lot.

Essentially, the Colt looked best on the outside, with correct markings and a nice blue job and color case hardening, but it was mechanically deficient and did not shoot well at all.  They found the chambers were .016" smaller than the bore (groove) diameter.  They did not give the actual measurements, but indicated the only way to fix the problem would be to ream the chambers and have a custom oversized mould made, so I'm assuming the bore was oversized.  I don't think I'll get a Colt!

The antique finish on the EMF was reportedly achieved with an acid dip.  The barrel was evidently not plugged during this operation, so the bore was also "antiqued," complete with pitting!  There was also some serious rusting on other parts where the acid had not been "killed."  They said Cimarron uses the same process to achieve their "Original Finish"... Maybe Abilene can tell us more about that.  In any event, I don't think I'll pay extra for the antique finish!  Other than the rust problem requiring detailed cleaning before testing started, and the bore requiring fire lapping,  the EMF performed pretty well.

The Cimarron was reportedly the best of the lot, although not without a couple of minor issues.  One of these was the loading lever latch would not hold.  The EMF had the same problem.  However, the reviewers rated the Cimarron very highly overall.

There's more, but if you were interested in this thread, or if you're thinking of getting a new percussion revolver as I am, you'll probably get a lot out of the Gun Tests article.  As noted, the article was published in 2006, so prices are different, and I don't think EMF sells the Dragoon revolvers any more.  However, the essential points still seem pertinent.  I expect I'll order a new Uberti and send it to Mike as the Professor recommended.

EDIT:  See Abilene's post (below) regarding Cimarron's "Original Finish."

Best regards,

Crooked River Bob
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Abilene on April 08, 2019, 07:49:22 PM
...The antique finish on the EMF was reportedly achieved with an acid dip.  The barrel was evidently not plugged during this operation, so the bore was also "antiqued," complete with pitting!  There was also some serious rusting on other parts where the acid had not been "killed."  They said Cimarron uses the same process to achieve their "Original Finish"... Maybe Abilene can tell us more about that.  In any event, I don't think I'll pay extra for the antique finish!  Other than the rust problem requiring detailed cleaning before testing started, and the bore requiring fire lapping,  the EMF performed pretty well....

Regarding antique finish:  Almost all finishes like this come from the manufacturer, in this case Uberti.  I antiqued a very few guns for Cimarron years ago when someone wanted one and only blued guns were in stock.  It was very labor-intensive (no dipping involved - just exterior surfaces).  Cimarron also paid some guys to antique a bunch of 1878 (TTN) hammer shotguns some years back.  Most of those looked like crap.  They also paid a guy to antique some pistols, but they also looked kind of like crap.  Especially the wood.  So, mostly it has just been Uberti.  They are supposed to plug cylinder chambers and barrels.   Maybe they don't always.  Pietta sent some samples of an antique finish once.  It was supposed to be "semi" antique, more of a worn finish with some blue still left on the gun.  Looked like crap, not like real wear.  It is a chore to try to make a pistol look very worn without taking away all the finish.  I do have one Cimarron antique finish 7 1/2" .45.  It looks exactly like my 1st gen .45 from 1901 (no finish) and I shoot them as a pair.  I also antiqued my TTN myself and it looks great.  Antique finishes are not for everyone.  I have shiny guns for when I'm more dressed up.  And I just ignore folks who say we shouldn't shoot antique finish guns because we are portraying folks shooting them when they were still newish.

As regards percussion guns, my choice would be Uberti just because I think they look better (there are exceptions, like those little Captain Schaeffer snubbies!).  The guns will need work no matter who made them.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crow Choker on April 21, 2019, 08:32:09 PM
Well it's been almost 2 weeks since the last post on this subject. CR Bob possibly you've already ordered/received a 2nd Mod Dragoon. If not, here's my 2 cents, maybe someone else is contemplating the same decision. I have a Uberti/Cimarron 2nd Model Dragoon I've had since 2007 and I love it to all the pieces it's made of. If I were to choose just one of the ten percussion revolvers I have (8 Ubert's, 2 Pietta), it would be the one and only. Like the looks, heft, caliber, and history. I agree mostly with what all has been posted reference the Pietta/Uberti difference. All of my Uberti Colts have mostly been trouble free except minor timing issues on a few. Four of them needed no arbor adjustment, I slicked up the innards on all just because they needed it..The one Pietta Colt (51 Navy 44 cal) worked fine and didn't have the terrible metal/metal and wood/metal fit I use to see in so many Pietta's. Minor stoning of the innards was all that it needed. The Pietta Remington I have works fine. Uberti 1860 Army Colt 2nd choice, Pietta 1851 Colt 44 caliber 3rd choice in case anyone is curious.

 The 'biggy' on my Whitneyville (Transition) Dragoon and 2nd Model Dragoon was the vertical loading lever catches (vs the horizontal ones on all of the other revolvers) that would fail a lot of times to hold the lever in place when firing. My Colt Walker has its own unique loading lever that needed its own Rx. What I had to do with the Whitneyville and 2nd Dragoon was file the V notch a bit deeper on the barrel catch on both by trial and error until it would hold the lever in place while firing. I generally load 40-45 grains of FFF in both. 30 grains didn't bother much, but that's a squib load in those big horse hoglegs. After careful filing, it took usually two attempts so the lever would stay in place. I can't recall who, but someone posted on the forum once (think in the STORM) that he had good luck replacing the spring in the loading lever with one with a little more resistance. Have been going to try that also, but haven't got around to it yet.The horizontal lever catches as on the 51 Navys, 60 Army, 61 Navy, and Remington have never been a problem. I do have a Uberti Remington 44 kit that is still under construction so it is no effect. I have a unfired 3rd Mod Colt Signature  Dragoon that is also of no effect---timing is good on it, guts will need stoning if I ever get around to shooting it, arbor need checking, mostly a safe queen.

 Interesting article by 'Gun Tests'. Mostly mirrors everything I've ever heard about the 2nd Gen Colts, Uberti's, EMF's, and other once upon a time' firearms. As previously noted, Pietta's once had terrible outside cosmetics, better now, I've always preferred Uberti's as they looked better, the minor internal needs always outweighed the once crappy looking Pietta's. Professor---interesting take on forged vs cast. As Coffinmaker posted, I neither have seen advertising listing the choice between forged or cast. Guess wasn't looking at the advert hard enough. Have to check it out also. I prefer Colts to Remington's, but enjoy the Rems, fun shooters too.

Note: Checked the 'r-cheeves' ref replacing the loading lever spring with one stronger. It was Montana Slim who did so in his Dragoon and he advised he never had the lever drop again.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 21, 2019, 10:56:35 PM
C.C.,  I too "enhance" the given setup on the loading lever (vert.or horiz.) by installing a "helper" spring which will do the trick. It's the same "fix" I used on my personal open top revolvers. As far as your Uberti's, they all have short arbors, I haven't seen one of any make that wasn't short except for the Piettas of the last several years (unless it has already been addressed). Proof would be a simple washer in the arbor hole and re-assembly. They'll all need "addressing". The Whitneyville is defiantly my favorite of the Dragoon series!! (You have excellent taste!!)
  The Dragoon for the OP will be acquired this Mon. or Tues and is a 1st Mod. (already on hold) which will be given the "Outlaw Mule" service which will include a coil spring conversion of the action, a cap post,  action stop, a bolt block, an action shield, a 3 1/2 lb hammer draw, a 2 3/4 lb trigger pull and a set .0025"-.003" barrel/cyl clearance.  A full diet of max loads is expected for the rest of the Dragoon's life!

Mike
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crow Choker on April 22, 2019, 11:26:54 AM
C.C.,   As far as your Uberti's, they all have short arbors, I haven't seen one of any make that wasn't short except for the Piettas of the last several years (unless it has already been addressed). Proof would be a simple washer in the arbor hole and re-assembly. They'll all need "addressing".


45 Dragoon, I know what your saying and respect that. Coffinmaker says the same, BUT-back when I went about doing my Uberti made cap and ball percussion revolvers, the four I didn't adjust the arbors on "really didn't need anything". Before doing anything I bought some of the Dillion brass buttons that Pettifogger recommended in his "How to do" information, but as I was busy at the time went the split washer route. Not liking the stainless steel 10mm (or whatever size they were), I bought four thicknesses of brass washers of the same diameter as the arbor and used them for all of my arbor fixes. Some took two, others were fine with one, just had to find the right combination. Liked them lots lots better, hold them in with a dab of grease, haven't lost one yet during disassembly. The four cappers I didn't do were so close to being perfect, even the thinnest brass washer I had was to thick. Thought of stoning them down, but have no problem with any of the four. Could they be adjusted to the Nth degree by using Pettifoggers or your method, probably so, but they were so close that the meaning of 'close' would need redefining.

 Of my three Uberti conversion type cartridge revolvers, one was right on, no matter how I checked its mating. My 44 Open Top needed adjustment as did my 38 Spec Richards/Mason. My 44 Richards II was a gem in a box of rocks, arbor fit no need of fixing, checked it every way possible. One of these days I hope to getting around to doing the Pettifogger Dillion brass button treatment on them. I realize you and Coffinmaker have had a lot more experience with the Uberti's and not trying to put that down, but I have five Uberti's that didn't need adjustment. Have read comments by others who advise they have found Uberti open top style revolvers also that were fine, not the normal, but I believe they're out there. Enjoy your posts, thanks for posting and educating us--- always informative.  Crow Choker


Crooked River Bob: I went to Taylors website and read what you posted about Taylors 1858 Remington Uberti choice's cast vs forged. Interesting--never knew Uberti offered a choice other than barrel length and finish on them. Never saw that, guess I wouldn't have as I haven't really been in the quest for another Remmie, never have seen any talk or writings about it either until you posted it. The Pietta I do have I bought used from another shooter and my Uberti is a work in progress kit I bought some years back, but like I advised, "a work in progress'.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: dddrees on April 22, 2019, 12:38:15 PM
Not having a clue about any of these guns. My only recommendation that you may want to consider is to see if Buds Gunshop sells any of these guns you are interested in. If so when ordering you have an option to buy their lifetime warranty. At least this way if you get a lemmon maybe that might give you an added b it of protection. I have yet to use their warranty but I have purchased a good number of guns through them and have always been more than satisfied with my dealings with them.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Abilene on April 22, 2019, 01:03:01 PM
...Of my three Uberti conversion type cartridge revolvers, one was right on, no matter how I checked its mating. My 44 Open Top needed adjustment as did my 38 Spec Richards/Mason. My 44 Richards II was a gem in a box of rocks, arbor fit no need of fixing, checked it every way possible. One of these days I hope to getting around to doing the Pettifogger Dillion brass button treatment on them. I realize you and Coffinmaker have had a lot more experience with the Uberti's and not trying to put that down, but I have five Uberti's that didn't need adjustment. Have read comments by others who advise they have found Uberti open top style revolvers also that were fine, not the normal, but I believe they're out there. Enjoy your posts, thanks for posting and educating us--- always informative.  Crow Choker
...

As I've mentioned before, my 4 R-M conversions from the early to mid 2000's all had short arbors.  My Type II .38 from about 3 years ago or so was correct.  Uberti may have corrected the arbor length, but I would not expect them to retrofit everything they still had in stock, and some short ones would still be in stock with the distributors for quite some time as well.  So it should always be checked.

It is also possible that Uberti corrected the arbors for cartridge guns only.  Those and the arbors for percussion pistols are two different part numbers (presumably the cartridge gun arbors are stronger?).

Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 22, 2019, 07:19:01 PM
Crow Choker,  thanks for the compliment and likewise, I enjoy all you guys posts! Always wanting to learn!!
 The only true way I know of checking is to drop a thin washer in the arbor hole and see if you can install the arbor and have the lug and frame meet . I've never found any that would (except for the mentioned later Pietta's and original 1st gen.) The "swinging the barrel to meet the frame" test won't work.

  I just checked a new (CS) in the box '72 OT and at minimum, it's .030" too short. That was the thickness of the washer and the lug butted right up to the frame , which means there's probably more space to fill in there (I didn't try more than just the one, I just wanted to test it just for this post.). I've found a single plug or spacer is superior to stacked shims held together with epoxy (JB) as the epoxy can compress.
  The Piettas I work on are naturally too long (I think the bbl/cyl clearances are typically  .004" - .006"  so just dressing the arbor down accordingly for a .003" bbl/cyl clearance is defiantly an easy operation!

Mike
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crow Choker on April 24, 2019, 11:56:41 AM
Mike I know what your talking about and the need reference the Colt open top style of revolvers, whether percussion or cartridge. The first method I read about to check the arbor fit was by using the twist method and seeing how much over gap (or under) there was. Then it was brought out that unless a person polished all of the burrs out of the arbor hole and anything on the arbor (esp around the wedge hole), a true determination couldn't be attained. Good and useful information. Other methods to go along with the twist and polish were the use of feeler gauges were said to be needed to get true fit and proper barrel/cylinder gap-again another true and useful guide. All guides I use, if there is anything else, I'm ignorant of it. If a shooter didn't want to use the Pettifogger or your method of adjusting the arbor/frame fit, some 10mm (preferably stainless) steel split washers could be dropped in the frames arbor hole to adjust the fit. 'Kinda' worked or at least bridged the gap some.

 I didn't like the split washer route because when you proceeded to install the wedge, you had to compress the barrel/receiver unit to get the wedge in. This provided some advantage, but I thought in case the gap was more than a split washer could fill, you'd have a partially compressed split washer that wasn't a solid gap fill. Also in the case of the four percussion revolvers that even my thinnest brass washer was to thick, when trying the split washer, the barrel/arbor fit was to much not allowing a good fit and improper barrel/cylinder gap. Also making it impossible to insert the wedge without trimming the wedge or wedge hole (which was a no-no). That's why I went with the four thicknesses of brass washers. Not as good as yours or Pettifoggers for a permanent solution, but it works allowing me to get a proper fit of the arbor and also a good barrel/cylinder gap within a hair close to the 0.003"(plus/minus) that works. As I previously posted, I just use a tad bit of grease to hold them in when taking the revolver apart. Sometimes one or both will be on the end of the arbor, but that's no biggey', haven't dropped/lost one yet. I'm avoiding epoxying them in due to the fact 'sometime' I want to do a permanent job on them and even so, the grease works fine. As a note, I've read a number of other solutions posted, some here on CAS and on other forums of those who say they have the best or another method, can't recall the specifics right now, but guess they worked. One of them I recall was "way out in left field' as to the procedure and method of attaining proper arbor fit. Doing to much for what needed to be done. Guess I'll quit, need to get some yard work done.  Yers- Crow Choker---Hey I'm a Roger--any more of ya out there?" I know of at least one. Named so as my Dad on his WW2 ship advised radio transmissions ended in a Roger.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Coal Creek Griff on April 24, 2019, 12:09:17 PM
10mm (preferably stainless) steel split washers

In the interest of clarity, I believe that we should be talking about #10 stainless split washers, which (I believe) are a little smaller than 10mm, except for the heavy-duty variety.

On the other hand, I could be very wrong about this.  Goodness (and my wife) knows how often I'm wrong.

CC Griff
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 24, 2019, 12:37:57 PM

CCG ...

Correct-a-mundo.  We are in fact talking about a #10 stainless split washer.  It's quick and dirty, simple and cheap.  The #10 washer sets down a little in the bottom of the barrel lug bore where the drill leaves a slight concave "dimple" in the bottom.  This will normally fix a Uberti barrel/armor fit.  Understand, 45 Dragoon and I have some differences with regard to Barrel to cylinder gap but no matter.  His washer and my washer both work quite well. 

We both agree, we have NEVER seen a Uberti Open Top nor Cap Gun with correct Barrel to Arbor fit.  If that fit is not corrected, there is no point in other work on the action.  Folks wind up chasing their tail trying to get the guns to set up correctly.  If you try and fix the head space and end shake on an Open Top without FIRST correcting barrel to arbor fit, you wind up with way too much head space and end shake when you get around to fixing the arbor fit.

My personal caveat is simple.  I don't like Uberti.  PERIOD. (Mike and I also disagree there) but no matter.  It is imperative .... Barrel to Arbor fit MUST be corrected FIRST!!!.  And again, yes, my solution without lots of machine work is a #10 split washer.  The Arbor will bottom and only minor sedge fitting will be required.  Burma Shave!!

HI MIKE!!

Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crow Choker on April 24, 2019, 02:10:16 PM
Well "Shiver my timbers"! I was thinking 10 mm, but if it's just a plain-o' #10 I stand corrected. For what's if worth I did go back in the forum 'r-cheevies' and found posts that said both, 10mm and #10 splitters' for a arbor fix. I'll have to dig around in the shop and see what I do have. I still have a small bag of em I bought for arbor work.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 24, 2019, 03:22:39 PM
Haaa!!  Hey Mike!!
   Well said, and since I'm not retired, I'm sorta like the ferry operator in Outlaw Josey Wales .  .  .   I've gotta sing the praises of Piettas and Ubertis with equal "in-thewseeazum" !! I can say that the 2nd gen Colts / ASM's (without a doubt!!) slow the shop down considerably!! There's a revamping of my website (way over due) that will reflect this  .  .  .   I'll also be offering New "ready to go" in the box revolvers as well.
   As I see it, both Pietta and Uberti offer a far superior product than we had/experienced in our younger days and possibly (in many respects) over the originals! Therefore, I don't think you can go too "wrong" with either!  Since this thread encompasses all replica revolvers, (and I know Mike doesn't like Remington's)  the Remington versions are quite remarkable arms after they've been "serviced"!! Just thought I'd throw that in since nobody else had .  .  .  nice thread !!!

Mike
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 24, 2019, 04:26:05 PM

Hiya Right back atcha Mike.  ;D

Full agreement.  I've been taking just enough work to keep from going completely Knutz.  That work also keeps me current with what is happening in the Cap Gun world. 

It's a fact.  The guns we are seeing now of recent production are leagues ahead of what we saw just a few years ago.  The offerings from Uberti and Pietta are really nice guns.  I still don't like Uberti but that is strictly a personal thing.  Once set up Uberti are fine guns.  I just like Pietta guns more better.  I can play with more bits and pieces to make some rather interesting and fun "never never" guns with Pietta.  I full realize the never never guns aren't histeraclly correct, but we aren't reenacting in CAS.  Just suppose to be having FUN.  Large gobs of FUN!!

A caveat though.  I don't like Remington.  PERIOD.  No matter who makes em nor caliber.  Personal thing.  I full realize there are those whom are aficanadsoes of Remington.  Some also like Boiled Okra.  Yhuck. 

Da Other Mike
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Professor Marvel on April 25, 2019, 02:56:31 AM

A caveat though.  I don't like Remington.  PERIOD.  No matter who makes em nor caliber.  Personal thing.  I full realize there are those whom are aficanadsoes of Remington.  Some also like Boiled Okra.  Yhuck. 

Da Other Mike

Ah My Dear Coffin-Mike

whatever exactly is it about the remingtons that burns your  offends your sensibilities?

I have a "pile o' parts" R&S that seems to present itself as the "perfect solid frame C&B" that was actually made, mainly because one
can pop out the grip frame and substitute whatever one desires...

If it is the knuckle busting I am very slowly playing with some sacrificial frames to see what can be done along the lines of a Rogers and Remington ....

but then it will be another "neverwas"  ....

yhs
prof marvel
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Coffinmaker on April 25, 2019, 07:14:40 AM

Ah My Good Professor   :D

And a happy Howdy Doody too ya two!!  Most happy too elucidate.  First .... Remingtons are ..... well ..... Ugly.  Colt pattern guns be suave and sleek.  They look right and fit the hand, balancing well, all of those intangible but describable things.

Then we have the pain.  Remington(s) bark my Social Finger something fierce.  Matters not how I hold em, what after-market grips I use, nada.  Remingtons' just assault me.  I don't like to be assaulted.  Atz why I also don't care for square back trigger guards onna Colt.  Peculiar I am ... or is it Particular.  Anyway ...... I just don't like Remingtons.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: 45 Dragoon on April 25, 2019, 08:37:21 AM
 Gotta agree with Coffinmaker !!! I just can't stand .  .  .  .  .  .  boiled okra!! Don't even like to look at it!!!

  As far as Remington's though, my intro to bp revolvers was a Rem. brasser ( 1978 ish) .  Mid. '80s I saw my first open top and was smitten and the Rem.  .  .  .  .    became "ugly"!!  Years went by (lots of um!!!!)  and I found myself being offered a trade for one of my " lesser" O.T.s with a Remington in steel!  Hmmmmm,  well Rems. didn't really look all that bad now (2014 ish) so, it happened!   Then a 5 1/2" model showed up in my safe (with a conv. cyl. of course)!! What a handy carrying size 45C six shooter!!  So,  I like um again!!!  They don't bite the finger and are intrinsically accurate (specially in 45C). So, I spent much too much time trying to figure out a coil handspring setup for them that would be SASS legal (no drilling the frame and such).  Besides, that's the most broken spring in a SA (Colt type action) so if ya can't fix that problem, no sense in fixing the others.  Finally got it and figured out the other two (it's so skinny in there!!) so now one could have a Remington with a Ruger life expectancy!!
  So, I guess I said all that to say, whether it's an Uberti, Pietta or any of the other previous makers, they can all be "modernized" with coil innards which makes me (and others) happy!
   
  So that's my take on the current production (as well as previous) Remington revolver.

Mike
 
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crow Choker on April 27, 2019, 05:32:00 PM
Not to keep this thread from dragging on into eternity, I found some posts reference the arbor washer fix that not only advocating the use of #10 or 10mm split washer use, but some that advocated the use of a 5mm split washer. These were what I used in my split washer attempt to fix the arbor fit. I had musta have had a brain stall reference the 10 mm use as the 10mm would be to large in diameter. I found the washers I originally bought for arbor fixin, they were 5mm splitters. They're approx. the size of a Colt arbor minus a bit and are approximately the same size as #10's give or take in outside diameter. I still contend that some Uberti arbors are OK or so close that a shim or washer is to much as in four of my Uberti cappers and Richards II, although many out in shooters hands are not as has been mentioned. Not all of mine were right and needed fixin. My brass flat washers are .01, .02, .03, and .04" in thickness. A 5mm split washer is .03" in thickness and approx. the same diameter as #10's, my flat brass washers are of the same approximate outside diameter. As Abilene advised he believed newer production of unknown time period are a lot better than ones of previous manufacturer. Reference Remington's, I like them, do carry and shoot them, they're a stronger frame design but like the Colt's better, just something about the lines. A lot 'Prettier" revolver if that term can be attributed to a firearm. ;D ---- Boiled or baked "Okra" is on my do not eat list-slimy concoction of whatever, at least as to my experience with the stuff.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Bunk Stagnerg on May 03, 2019, 05:05:24 PM
All things considered I would go for the third model Dragoon. Mostly because the loading latch is (somewhat) better and stays latched {usually}when shooting. As least if you stay away from warthog loads.
My third model is somewhat different looking because it has a fluted cylinder like the model P and the front and rear sight are dovetailed into the barrel.
I call it the 4th Model Dragoon. it is a lot heavier than my 1851 Navy but still fun to shoot.
Respectfully submitted
Bunk
 
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Pappy Myles on June 14, 2019, 09:39:26 AM
Last year I picked up a pair of Uberti 1951 Navy - London Models from Midway USA .  On Sale for 290 a piece. Almost a sequential pair by 1 number.....  Added slix nipples and did some work de-burring and working on the mainspring. Stoner the face of the hammer a bit to remove the burrs on the cylenter stop pen that causes cap sucking.  And cut the v notch on the hammer a little deeper and wider.    The thing about uberti's is they take a .380 ball vice the .375.   Mine shoot great and handle great.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crow Choker on June 27, 2019, 10:59:19 PM
My two 36 caliber cappers (1851 Navy and 1861 Navy) both prefer and have better outcomes with .380" balls also vs .375".
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: JimCunn on January 01, 2020, 12:25:12 PM
This is my first post, so please bear with me :-)

I have a Belgian Centaure (Centennial) 1st Variation, and Subvariation replica of an 1860 Army .44 made in 1963.  I've owned it since new.  It had two chainfires about 1964.  The second blew the barrel off destroying the wedge and the barrel stud/lug that accepts the loading lever latch.  Arbor is OK.  At the time, I wasn't able to find replacement parts that could be fitted.  I'd like to try again.  Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Coffinmaker on January 01, 2020, 01:33:40 PM

Well, lemme see.  That would be around 55 Years ago.  The Centaure has also been out of production for some years.  That would tend to make OEM parts difficult to find.  Your best and only choice is to Adapt and Overcome.

I would also suggest contacting Long Johns Wolf, whom lurks here on CAS City and had been known to have access to FROGS (Friends of the Centaure).  Might be able to help you find parts.

I personally have no idea if Pietta or Uberti parts are compatible but may be modified a bit to fit.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: llanerosolitario on March 09, 2021, 09:29:54 AM
From a shooter point of view there are no advantages in forged versus cast....in BP guns. In smokeless it does matter however, as investment cast frames, tend to be designed thicker, while forged ones tend to be designed more gracefully. Original Remingtons and Adams Beaumont revolvers were a casting, including cylinders in the last one.

Second generation Uberti Remingtons are oversized, and look “artificial”, not very much like the original. They are made using high tech electro eroding machining as the internal cuts are hard to mach8ne using traditional machinery. They are not known for being specially accurate among top MLAIC shooters....though probably Pedersoli is selling and Uberti revolver with a better barrel ( maybe a Lothar Walther?).

Piettas are closer to the originals...though Pietta employs very soft easy machining steel to ease production. They all shoot well, and have excellent finish. If only used with BP, it’s a good revolver.

 Brass framed Pietta revolvers are crap. The brass is not gun brass or bronze or bronze alloy but a cheap alloy that will tend to bend or stretch with use. I cracked a frame trying to unscrew a barrel...it cracked in the weakest part..the front lowest part with the  bullet shaped cut.

Old Uberti brass frame revolvers are good....very well made. Uberti Colt revolvers are very good revolvers.

Santa Barbara revolvers are among the better built and most accurate revolvers ever made...I had 2. They were made with excellent steel and even more excellent barrels. The internal parts were a bit delicate if abused.. The hammer spring was vey stiff, on purpose,  as demanded by World champions. It was a popular revolver among shooting circles in Germany, France and Spain, quite valued today but virtually unknown in USA.

The Centaure 1860 was the first and one of the best 1860 clones. Excellent finish, wonderful case hardening rivallling Colt’s, good steel, resistant internal parts. I have one.

The Euroarms Remington  was  a great neat revolver...accurate, very close in size to the originals...nicely finished, well made...the ones with “Lothar Walther” german barrels, marked so, are much sought after. I am looking for one.

Feinkwerbau in Germany made top revolvers...rarely seen outside Germany and very expensive. The Rolls Royce of Remingtons and Roger Spencers clones.

Pedersoli is marketing a Remington Pattern revolver, very accurate, as I said, suspiciously close to the old Ubertis, with and oversized wooden butt that has caused problems in some MLAIC championships..forcing owners to reduce it, for wood excess. I tried this revolver...it is accurate!

Pietta is making a “Shooters” Remington model with a special “gain twist”barrel, very very accurate but expensive.

Pietta’s standard Remington is  a good gun, thougth made with butter steel, at a very good price that shoots great and it is probably the best choice in Remington. For Colts, I would buy Uberti.

Second generation Colts were not entirely made with Uberti supplied parts...at least initial batches had frames made in USA if my memory is not failing, They are not a good investment.

I would avoid the Starr revolver by Pietta. Problems,,,..the originals worked ok because the faulty design was compensated with good steel. The Pietta clone is a lottery,,,it can go ok or be a nigth are. I had to repair one long ago..so long that I don’t remember the problem..it was the SA model.

In short:

For top accuracy:

Dont buy Uberti Remington, but go for Pedersoli, Pietta shooters, if you want to buy new. Expensive.

Second hand: Santa Barbara, Feinkwerbau...Euro arms Lothat Walther, Pietta Newmann ( rarely seen in USA).

For very good accuracy and even top if you are lucky:

Buy standard Pietta for Remington, with a dovetailed front sigth, avoid brass, or buy Uberti for Colt...old brass Ubertis are good. I had a second model Dragoon by Uberti...accurate.

Other revolvers:

Roger Spencer., by Euroarms...a good revolver, sligthly heavier, with trigger stop. The Feinkwerbau german revolver is a mechanical wonder, hard to find in USA.

Revolver to avoid:

The Starr clones in SA And DA...faulty design, originals better than copies.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: llanerosolitario on March 10, 2021, 03:17:20 AM
Haaa!!  Hey Mike!!
   Well said, and since I'm not retired, I'm sorta like the ferry operator in Outlaw Josey Wales .  .  .   I've gotta sing the praises of Piettas and Ubertis with equal "in-thewseeazum" !! I can say that the 2nd gen Colts / ASM's (without a doubt!!) slow the shop down considerably!! There's a revamping of my website (way over due) that will reflect this  .  .  .   I'll also be offering New "ready to go" in the box revolvers as well.
   As I see it, both Pietta and Uberti offer a far superior product than we had/experienced in our younger days and possibly (in many respects) over the originals! Therefore, I don't think you can go too "wrong" with either!  Since this thread encompasses all replica revolvers, (and I know Mike doesn't like Remington's)  the Remington versions are quite remarkable arms after they've been "serviced"!! Just thought I'd throw that in since nobody else had .  .  .  nice thread !!!

Mike

The originals guns are far superior to the Italian copies by far, specially Colts:

Piettas ara a casting, as I said, employing the softest machining steel in the industry. The Colts used better steel and were all forged, including small parts.

Uberti does employ forged parts and that’s why they are more expensive, but both Pietta and Uberti lack the gain twist rifling of the Colts and the authentic case hardening of the original ones. Colts in their time were expensive guns.

That’s why originals, when in good condition, all shoot well and in most cases, better than the clones.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Crooked River Bob on January 24, 2022, 11:18:50 AM
I started this thread a couple of years ago.  I somehow got distracted and had not checked it in quite a while, and I'm pleased to see the conversation continued.  The collective knowledge here is remarkable, and differences of opinion are expressed as only true gentlemen can.

I ended up with a Uberti 1st Model Dragoon.  I had a little trouble finding a Dragoon at the time, but Mike Brackett (of Goon's Gun Works) actually went out and bought one from a dealer he knew and then did the requested "Outlaw Mule" tune-up.  All I had to do was write the check!  I am very happy with this six-shooter.  I will say that any of the Dragoons will be "a lot of gun".  Old time plainsmen liked them for running buffalo... That ought to tell you something.  Might not be the best choice for a die-hard competition shooter in a match with time-based scoring, but that's not why I got it.

This has been a great thread.  Thanks to all who contributed!

Crooked River Bob
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: 45 Dragoon on January 24, 2022, 09:29:40 PM
Wow!! Thank you Kindly Crooked River Bob!!! Dragoons are definitely "fun guns" !!!!

Mike
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Keith H. on March 30, 2022, 01:44:48 AM
I've had all the different models over the 35 yrs. or so that I've been shooting them, armies, navies, walkers, pockets, polices, dragoons, and after trying and handling them all through good and bad, I decided to buy a 'last one' for me. Now we all know it probably will not be my last, but it's definitely what I consider the BEST for me. And that is the Uberti Second Model Dragoon. There are just far too many aspects of it that make it the best for me, it would probably take a book to explain them all, but there it is. Leaving her only black too, no conversion for me. A London Navy was a very distant second, but just could not catch up. If I were to get a London, it would not be considered my last, but merely as a kind-of little sister and friend to keep the 2nd model company...a helper if you will.
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: Cowtown on July 17, 2022, 05:07:09 PM
I know, I know... old thread. But still very informative and full of wisdom and great insight. Well worth reading several times.

Now you fellers got me wanting to get back into these masterpieces of the dark arts.

Having spent the morning watching YT videos on the 1862 Police and Pocket Police, that's now my hankering. Gonna hafta add one to my to my slowly growing collection of cap n ball guns.

I prefer the Colt style but I do have 2 of the 1858s that I have outfitted with conversion cylinders that are a ton of fun with BP loads.

All these guns do provide a feller with plenty of quality entertainment. 

 :)
Title: Re: Questions About Current Percussion Replica Revolvers
Post by: kwilliams1876 on July 18, 2022, 02:41:37 PM
Ok Ok Ok, maybe "some" of the 2nd generation Colts had issues, but surely not all. My '60 army, '51 and '61 navies are fine, and yes I shoot them. The most stunning revolver I have ever owned is a my Signature series Walker, the fit, finish, timing is just absolutely perfect and that says alot as I have had plenty of the others, the Centennial army, Navy arms, CVA etc all needed some extensive work. My new Uberti Scofield was a piece of junk. That all said, I gunsmith 5-6 days a week on black powder guns and have seen some real percussion revolver abominations over the years. If you get the chamber diameters the correct size from the start you are half way home. Uberti seems to have had a problem with muzzle crowns and forcing cones, maybe they fixed that. Heck ya' buy a saa Ruger and then spend 2 days tuning and de burring it.
kw