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Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Bruce W Sims on October 21, 2014, 08:52:18 AM

Title: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 21, 2014, 08:52:18 AM
Dear Folks:

Not only am I new to the whole "reenactor" thing but I still have a lot to learn about uploading pictures here....
so apologies in advance.

I recently became an avid patron of Black Powder and that has pushed me in the direction of historically accurate
Scout dress to go along with my shooting activities. I have attached a picture of Burt Lancaster's dress as a
Civilian Scout in post-1881 Arizona in the movie Ulzana's Raid. . I have a couple of questions.

a.) The dress varies considerably from the Plains dress I usually see in the resources I have found so far. There is a bit of fringe but not like the 4-6 inch stuff I have seen in some of the costume shops. There is also a bit of ornamentation across the chest that
I don't see in other places.

b.) The coat length is down to the crotch like a range coat or scout coat, so its not like those Biker Jackets from the 60-s. It also seems to be made of a kind of suede rather than a heavy wool like a town coat or even a sack coat.

c.) The pants may be buckskin or maybe just canvas dungerees--hard to tell

d.) The boots/moccasins are definitely a suede-type leather.

e.) The hat is also problematic because it is not a standard slouch hat.

I'd hope someone can favor me with some comments about the authenticity os this costume for 1880-s Arizona and
how I could begin to fashion something similar for myself. So far all of the places I have looked want me to dress-up
like something out of Buffalo Bill's Wild West Show.  Thoughts? Help?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Niederlander on October 21, 2014, 09:07:05 AM
Do you have questions, just posting a photo, or what?
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: pony express on October 21, 2014, 09:40:04 AM
While I can't help much with what exactly a civilian scout might have worn on the trail, I can say that Hollywood probably isn't the best way to get accurate information. Probably most anything worn by an ordinary cowboy of the period would work. There's lots of photos posted in this site, you might try searching in the NCOWS and Historical Society boards for some ideas
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Niederlander on October 21, 2014, 11:02:58 AM
Sorry, when it first came up, all I could see was the picture.  Jim Hanson of the Museum of the Fur Trade wrote a book on the dress of scouts and buffalo hunters that you can usually find quite reasonably.  The Time-Life book "The Scouts" would be another good source.  You can also Google names like Frank and Luther North, and William Comstock.  Since an awful lot of scouts started out as Mountain Men you could also look in that direction.  I'd have to agree with Pony that Hollywood is usually a fairly poor source.  Most scouts seemed to have dressed more as day laborers than what the movies would have you believe.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on October 21, 2014, 11:10:16 AM
Look up Al Sieber who was head of the Apache scouts for a while - here's one link to him wearing a buckskin jacket similar to that in Ulzana's raid

http://www.sharlot.org/library-archives/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/08-03-13_po0813pb.jpg
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 21, 2014, 11:29:30 AM
St. George's Notes XXI - Indian Scout Uniforms...
« on: August 02, 2005, 12:42:43 PM »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every so often - someone wants to do an Impression of  a Scout - more often, an Indian Scout or someone associated with them.

That way - they get to use all sorts of bits and pieces that they figure a scout would wear.

There was a difference, though.

Early on - such fanciful dress would've been a common sight, since those folks would not've been subject to a uniform - but after 1866 - things changed, because prior to that time - Indians employed as scouts and guides were not actually soldiers but were considered employees.

The history of Indians employed by the Army is a long one - Indians having aided the Army in the Revolution, the War of 1812, and on both sides of the Civil War - with at least one becoming a General.

In 1891 - the War Department manned some Cavalry Troops and Infantry Companies with Indians - but these men served as regular troops - wearing the standard uniform - and 'not' as Indian Scouts.

On 28 July 1866 - the Congress authorized the Army to have a Corps of Indian Scouts.
There was an  'actual' uniform that came about in at that time - and they wore cast-off and obsolete uniforms.

In 1890 - special uniforms were prescribed - with that uniform being proposed by First Lieutenant Edward Casey - Commander of the Indian Scouts Troop at Fort Keough, Montana, who wrote the Secretary of War with his suggestions.

War Department Circular - dated 15 August 1890 - authorized a distinct uniform virtually unchanged from that of the one suggested by the Lieutenant.

It included a Black felt fatigue hat with a 3 1/2" brim and a 3 1/2" crown, A White hat cord with a Red strand intermixed decorated the hat, along with a special hat ornament.
The standard Dark Blue shirt was modified to have a deeper collar "to hold a neck-handkerchief".
The overcoat was unusual insofar as it was designed to fit over 'all' accouterments.
It came within 10" of the ground, featured a long rear slit to allow for more comfortable seating on the saddle and it at also had a pointed hood.
A surviving example is in the Collection of Fort Sill's Museum.

The Scout Dress uniform was generally similar to the standard uniform with chevrons, trouser stripes  and other trim of White with Red trim.

When that uniform changed in 1902 - the White with Red trim remained.

From 1890 until early in the twentieth century - Regulations called for Indian Scouts to wear Silver-colored crossed arrows on the Dress Blue uniform's Brass helmet plate.
The Quartermaster Depot initially stocked this insignia, but by 1900 all initial purchases were exhausted.

Lieutenant Casey recommended:  "Two arrows, crossed, to be made of nickel or of some white metal, three inches in height, the letters USS in the intersection' as the ornament for the special Black hat.

The Office of the Quartermaster General Specifications Number 318, dated March 1892 - depicts this insignia.
The Philadelphia Quartermaster Depot issued several hundred of these insignia and in November of 1893 - placed a second order for 323 additional devices - as the cost of .15 each.

As an aside - in the 1960's - a partial original insignia was used to make a die and restrike copies were made of this unique insignia.

No complete original hat devices are known - though the Philadelphia Depot had 275 in stock in March of 1901.

Prescribed in 1902 - the block letters USS were worn on both the collar and the hat - until they were withdrawn in 1907 when the Army removed all Campaign hat insignia.

In 1902 - the Bronze letters were also worn on the collars of service coats until the Army changed to a collar disk in 1910.

Also in 1902 - the Army decided not to issue the Indian Scouts a new dress uniform - issuing Service uniforms only.
Specifications of 1915 call for Gilt letters of the same design and style of the older Bronze letters.
No evidence has been given to suggest that they were produced, as there was no Dress uniform requiring their issue.

In March 1921 - the Indian Scouts became a part of the Detached Enlisted Man's List - and were authorized a collar disk featuring the crossed arrows - unlike that of the regularly-issued disk for that element - the Great Seal.
Few would actually wear this insignia, as by that time there were only 23  men eligible.

With the adoption of the crossed arrow disk - the USS disk disappeared completely.

In the '20's and '30's - Indian Scouts served as a labor force - assisting carpenters, plumbers and others.
They wore whatever insignia was available as they faded into the mists of history - though one Apache Scout Detachment continued to perform military duties (a wide-ranging description, to be sure) until disbanded in 1947.

In speaking of reference books - a very good reference on Indian Scouts is:

"The Indian as a Soldier at Fort Custer, Montana" - by Upton.

It goes into much of the material surrounding those soldiers and is well-written and well-researched.

No idea where a copy may be found.

The Indian Scouts pictured are in the standard Army dress, though - as required.

Another good book for your references is:

"To Live and Die in the West - The American Indian Wars" - by Hook and Pelger, and available through Osprey.

Yet another is:

'Wolves for the Blue Soldiers' - Dunlay

And:

'Scouting for the U.S. Army, 1876 - 1879, the Diary of Fred M. Hans' - reprinted from the South Dakota Historical Collections, in 1981

If you want a more 'colorful' look and yet a 'realistic' one - Frederick Remington's artwork is pretty accurate and has the added feature of some color.

What I'm referencing here - is the 'standard' uniform as laid down in Regulations and seen at the Fort or in Garrison.

'On Campaign' - as often noted - there was sometimes a wider variety of clothing worn.
Varieties of that are seen in Remington's work - as well as in pictures taken in the field.

The Indian Scouts were led by white Officers - detailed from their parent Branch.
That Branch was most likely Cavalry and they were to return to it upon completion of their assignment as Commanders of those detachments.

They would've worn the Crossed Sabers of that Arm.

Non-Commissioned Officers were drawn from the ranks of the Indians - as were those in Regular units.

The only photo of an Indian Scout - a Crow from Troop L, 1st Cavalry - wearing any sort of hat ornament, by the way - is one of an NCO wearing a pair of the M1872 Crossed Sabers.

Take that for what you will...

Unfortunately, as far as historical accuracy is concerned - Hollywood muddied the waters a long time ago through 'artistic license', and thus was born the "John Ford Reference Library" - a wholly-ficticious, yet dangerous place to draw an accurate picture of the Frontier Army.

The above covers Indian Scouts.

White scouts would wear the commonly available civilian clothing, and not articles of uniform, since association with the Army wasn't something to be overly proud of, as the Frontier Army was looked at as if it were a parasite on the public treasury - despite the often dangerous duty, and even commissioned Officers were viewed askance.

Some articles of equipment would be available - sold, as mentioned earlier, by deserters.

The Quartermaster contract wagoner/freighter - of which there were many - were sometimes supplied with obsolete weapons and ammunition as may be available on Post - but it was more a case of outfitting the 'wagon' than the man - like supplying a spare wheel.

Good Luck, and Happy Researching...

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Gabriel Law on October 21, 2014, 11:35:14 AM
It is difficult to get true accuracy from a period studio photograph, as many times, articles of clothing have been provided by the photographer from his studio inventory.  But its better than relying on Hollywood's impressions.
One thing you will see every time, in an old time photo, is the men have their hats pushed back so light can hit their faces, and thus make a better photograph.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 21, 2014, 02:39:20 PM
....and that is why I took this route.......since I just KNEW you fellas would be awesome!
Thanks for all the hints and suggestions.
Here are a couple of things that I have found.

a.) I've become gun-shy about studio photographes since I found out that many studio-s
kept props and clothing to dress people in a style that was consistent with what observers would expect to see.
What I was hoping to find was something more along the lines of what clothes looked like "on-the-job".

2.) The Indian scouts themselves definitely wore uniforms are, at least uniform dress for years. Their officers
seemed to play fast-and-loose with the dress codes. The ones I am having trouble with are the Civilian Scouts
who were contractors (as it were) for the Military. I have a picture of William (Medicine Bill) Comstock in what looks like
a collarless shirt, collarless vest and a heavy town coat. There was a studio shot of John Y Nelson but even with his whole family there it still looked staged. The worst seems to be bits like Buffalo Bill Cody and that "indian jacket" supposedly worn by Kit Carson.

3.) Now I did start to go through some old Sears Catalogs back to 1906 to get an idea of what sort of work clothes a fella working as a Civilian Contractor might wear but then I feel like I am guessing at it.

Anyhow....thats what I have so far.
Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: River City John on October 21, 2014, 04:05:40 PM
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/a80cacaa.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/a80cacaa.jpg.html)

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/b9ceda11.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/b9ceda11.jpg.html)

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/Scouts.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/Scouts.jpg.html)

Just to wet your imagination.

(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/DSCF0847.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/DSCF0847.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 21, 2014, 05:17:59 PM
If you're wondering - then refer to the above-mentioned references.

They wore what clothing as was available during the time frame from the dry goods stores.

The catalog you refer to has earlier reprint editions - most Public Libraries have copies, or can order them - and they also have shelves full of books on items of dress used by all periods, so find a librarian and ask for their help.

The idea that they were 'colorful', and were adorned with all manner of Indian garb may have been true - once - but that was when the last of the fur trappers finally died off, or were too infirm to leave the towns they eventually were drawn to.

After that, they wore what every other civilian wore at the time - and they didn't wear trouser belts like the 'hero' seen in the photo does - that's a 'Hollywood' thing, as were the various 'Wild West Show' outfits that the Eastern public thought all men wore on the Frontier.

There's a wide divide between the 'reel Old West' and the 'real' Old West', and using the 'John Ford Reference Library' as a source can lead one astray.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Pitspitr on October 21, 2014, 05:58:54 PM
+1 on Jim Hansen's book.
Also check museums. Museum of the Fur Trade and the Cody center come to mind.

Another thing to consider is that not all the props were owned by the photographer. There are photo's of Bill Cody and Texas Jack Omohundro wearing the same coat. It belonged to Cody and is on display at the Cody Center.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on October 21, 2014, 07:54:48 PM
More Al Siber Photos, not all studio images....
Al Sieber Photos (https://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=&oq=al&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGNI_enUS476US476&q=al+sieber&gs_l=hp..0.41.0.0.0.5015...........0.)

The Museum of the Fur Trade, Scouts, etc. book is a good one, bit is centered mainly on the scouts on the Great Plains and not the far SW scouts.....
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: pony express on October 21, 2014, 10:01:43 PM
Wonder what the date of this pic is?
http://frontierpartisans.com/773/al-sieber-chief-of-scouts/

Seems something like that could be made up with off the shelf CAS clothing pretty easily
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 22, 2014, 08:04:30 AM
Great suggestions..... thanks for everything. I'll follow-up on those resources.

The two things that I want to avoid are the garrish colors and loud embroidery that seem so common
in many of the pictures. I know that modern dyes and textiles tend to be far more loud or striking
in their visual impact while the 19th Century clothing tended to be a bit more muted. In like manner the pictures of the
Civilian Scouts replete with 6" fringe, and heavy embroidery just does not look like what a working stiff
would have worn out on a mission or campaign. When I compare the Civilian Scout to his Native American counterpart
the difference is telling. For instance, in most of the group shots of the N/A Scout units I don't see a lot
of beads and baubles though for studio shots there is certainly a lot more.

Another thing that I have noticed in many of the modern re-enactors is how fresh and clean everybody looks,,,, like they just stepped out of a display case at one of those "sutler" websites. Seems to me that if a guy was on the frontier and wearing the
same clothes day after day and maybe boiling his uniforms once a month to kill the flea and tick eggs, the uniforms would
have looked a lot more care-worn as in the case, say, of the Apache Scout photo-s. Are there any re-enactor groups who go in for this sort of realism? Am I going over the top?  Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Pitspitr on October 22, 2014, 08:33:55 AM
Most of us look fairly clean at the beginning of the weekend, but by the end of the weekend there are usually some new patches (right Doug?) and lots of new or bigger sweat stains.  ::)

Seriously though, you're right most reinactors' uniforms do look too clean and too new. I wash mine when they get dirty and patch them when they wear through. They look new and clean when they are new but the longer I have them the more wore in they look.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 22, 2014, 08:48:30 AM
Then instead of washing your stuff in the washing machine - try washing it by hand in a washtub and rinsing with the hose and letting it air-dry over a bush.

That way, it'll gain a different type of wear and won't be 'quite' as thoroughly sanitized.

You could use 'Castile' soap or one of the 'Camp' soaps that are touted as being good for everything - but in reality, all you're trying to 'seriously' wash are going to be those parts that come into direct contact with your skin, in order to avoid irritation, while the rest is pretty well taken care of by the sudsing.

Look for a soap without any sort of scent.

Another way for them to gain 'character' is to actually 'wear' them - and you can do that when doing chores or hunting.

There are threads on this over on the 'Historical Society' forum and the 'NCOWS' forum - find them and read them.

Remember - studio photos showed the gaudy stuff that folks 'back East' expected, as well as finery.

The reality was much plainer and grittier and there aren't a lot of photos of that.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Pitspitr on October 22, 2014, 10:38:59 AM
St. George, Supposedly Ivory is supposed to be a good choice too. Supposedly their recipe hasn't changed much over the years.

Below is a line drawing from an early photograph of Conrad "Little Buckshot" Wentworth.  But again as you say plains style and posed.
(http://www.memoriallibrary.com/NE/Loup/1906/Image/80~.jpg)

And from which this photo was posed to simulate.
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/DSCF0847.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/DSCF0847.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 22, 2014, 10:50:53 AM
I'm gonna guess that "buckskin coat is more likely a sheep or buffalo skin turned inside and leaving the underside turned out to
produce the fluffy cuffs and collar. I'll also guess that the footwear may be moccasins but probably the higher ankle or calf-height version. Certainly the plainer more utilitarian look is what I have in mind.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Major 2 on October 22, 2014, 01:21:35 PM
I've always liked Joe Grandee's art,  do a Google and hit images...there are several good examples

My personal coat is a Smoke tan deerskin frock length fringed at the yoke and skirt , it has 4 original Waterbury 7/8  C within the eagle & shield.
Fringe also runs the sleeve seem and the collar is an oversize lay-down.

At one time it sported Major's bars ( but that was 14 years ago) the coat itself was made for me in 1991 , prior to several films
I did... "Geronimo, an American Legend" 92 or 93  & "Son of the Morning Star" 1991 and "North & South Heaven & Hell" 1994.
Might of even had it on "Rough Riders" ??

Though Robert is right, "shouldn't  use films as your data base,"  there were a number of us, what we called the "Migrant Film Workers Cavalry" and we did our homework...  ;)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 22, 2014, 03:09:12 PM
I suppose one could use 'Pears' or one of the other 'tar' soaps - and any of the home-made variants sold by Civil War sutlers could work, if it had lye in it and wasn't scented - the lye being a most common additive of the time, and many produce it today.

Stay away from any of the 'modern' soaps, though - you want to use a 'natural' soap on your clothing -and  mostly, you'd prefer it if it just didn't smell, but smell it will, of woodsmoke, gunpowder, sweat and maybe even horse sweat, if your shooting has a mounted group, so settle for a more or less 'general' cleaning.

Scouts Out!

Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Niederlander on October 22, 2014, 04:33:16 PM
Re-enactors or "undead" (living) historians looking too new and fresh is a subject that HAS come up at Musters.  The best way to not look like that is to wear your stuff regularly, preferably while you're working outside.  As Jerry said, we look pretty clean at the start of the Muster, not so much by the end!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 22, 2014, 05:00:49 PM
I hadn't remember the lye....maybe that would be a good "aging" agent...who knows.

Best.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 22, 2014, 11:02:33 PM
No - what makes for a good 'aging' agent is 'wear' and you don't fake that - you achieve that by actually using and wearing the gear in the rain and in high summer sun and by letting nature affect it.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 23, 2014, 09:31:41 AM
No - what makes for a good 'aging' agent is 'wear' and you don't fake that - you achieve that by actually using and wearing the gear in the rain and in high summer sun and by letting nature affect it.

Scouts Out!

Kind of as a side-note and along those lines, George, I have also wondered how well people "wear" their personna in their daily
lives. In my public life I do a lot of work with Vets and the Military, so their is a kind of carry-over---of sorts--- when I think of the contractor role of the scouts and my own contractor role. In thinking about a re-enactor role, I imagine that there are two ways to approach this. The first that comes to mind is a sort of theatrical approach where a person dresses in period garb, shoots period pieces and generally takes on a role for the day. Another way I see is to actually assume the personna of the individual on a day-to-day basis by seeking to assess the World and its conditions through the eyes of a person of the selected era. I understand that a number of the Hollywood actors use this approach in playing a movie role and sometimes even need help getting out of that place when the end of their movie work on a particular picture comes along. I wonder if any of the folks you know go quite this far with their work? Thoughts?

BTW: I have been devouring old photo-s and have noticed two interesting trends. One is that the "chief of scout" position is usually a civilian contractor and dressed in typical work clothes of the period, so thats a help. I also notice that whether civilian contractor or Native American, non-studio portraits have almost none of the fringe, buables and bangles commonly assocciated with our image of a Western Scout. In fact, I have found only one Cheyenne Scout who was wearing the typical fringew shirt (ala- "tonto") in all the pictures I have looked at thus far.
Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Pitspitr on October 23, 2014, 11:01:04 AM
This is the only person I know who actually wears his reenacting clothing everyday. Usually he'll have a hat on but no apron.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/280x200q90/834/57300050.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/n657300050j)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Drydock on October 23, 2014, 04:57:02 PM
I'm reminded of a reinactor at Gettysburg who wanted to know where I'd gotten the Montana peak campaign hat I was wearing (Bought for $5 at a surplus store in upper NY 17 years previous) because "It looks like its been worn daily for the last 10 years!"

I just laughed and said "That's because I've been wearing it pretty much daily for the last 10 years."
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 23, 2014, 05:10:33 PM
He's also been known to wear a nightcap and nightshirt...

Much in the way of the clothing can be worn day-to-day - especially in smaller towns or towns more towards the South and West, where 'working man's garb' is a common sight, and men wear what they're most comfortable in.

That'll put wear on the clothing used for your Impression easily.

As to Al Sieber in his role of 'Chief of Scouts' - he dressed as I'd outlined - like any man who bought his working clothing from a dry goods shop and expected it to give good service.

If you wonder about your 'approach' - think about what you're trying to do and behave accordingly.

If you want to educate and give as honest an impression as possible of an earlier time to those who may be watching - and learning - then take care with your outfit and its authenticity and try to honor those who went before and their times.

If you want to be theatrical - well, I really have no words...

I invite you to read 'Confederates In the Attic' by Tony Horowitz, as he takes it upon himself to follow a group of modern-day 'hardcore' Confederate reenactors as they go about their lives.

You'll get a glimpse of yet another take on historical reenactment and those who 'really' embrace it.

Mostly, folks are adults who have a firm grasp of reality and don't get sucked into the fantasy, but...

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Niederlander on October 23, 2014, 06:10:36 PM
Fantasy?  This is a fantasy???!!!!  You're right about most people having a fairly firm grasp on reality.  Of course, there's the whole "Fantasy Football" thing........ Personally, I play lead air guitar in a fantasy '80's rock band......................
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Drydock on October 23, 2014, 06:28:05 PM
This explains much . . .
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Trailrider on October 23, 2014, 06:40:08 PM
If you are doing an impression of Al Sieber, do you need to include wrapping your foot in bandages?  ::)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: pony express on October 23, 2014, 07:10:09 PM
Fantasy?  This is a fantasy???!!!!  You're right about most people having a fairly firm grasp on reality.  Of course, there's the whole "Fantasy Football" thing........ Personally, I play lead air guitar in a fantasy '80's rock band......................

What do you do for the Fantasy 80's rock band hair? Ned Niederlander with a mullet, this I gotta see!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Niederlander on October 23, 2014, 07:18:20 PM
Yep, the mullet, the parachute pants, the Members Only jacket............
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Drydock on October 24, 2014, 03:38:07 AM
http://www.eyebleach.me/
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Charles Isaac on October 24, 2014, 07:12:43 AM
I wanted to be a rock star. I would have had a guitar fashioned from an M60.

It's all part

Of my rock n' roll fantasy.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Pitspitr on October 24, 2014, 09:18:06 AM
He's also been known to wear a nightcap and nightshirt...
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/DOMM%202012/GAF2012196.jpg)

Next thing you know there's liable to be a picture of me and a cell phone...then I'm going to have to assign him KP...AGAIN  :)

But we digress.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Charles Isaac on October 24, 2014, 09:56:28 AM


I made the mistake of askin' that dude for a caramel macchiato. Luckily all he had in his hands was a spatula and not that huge Swiss boominshooter, so I survived that particular encounter.



Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Delmonico on October 24, 2014, 11:16:45 AM
(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i200/Delmonico_1885/DOMM%202012/GAF2012196.jpg)

Next thing you know there's liable to be a picture of me and a cell phone...then I'm going to have to assign him KP...AGAIN  :)

But we digress.

Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Delmonico on October 24, 2014, 11:20:35 AM

I made the mistake of askin' that dude for a caramel macchiato. Luckily all he had in his hands was a spatula and not that huge Swiss boominshooter, so I survived that particular encounter.





I was just pointing out the direction to Starbucks, about 200 miles that way.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Delmonico on October 24, 2014, 12:09:36 PM


I invite you to read 'Confederates In the Attic' by Tony Horowitz, as he takes it upon himself to follow a group of modern-day 'hardcore' Confederate reenactors as they go about their lives.

You'll get a glimpse of yet another take on historical reenactment and those who 'really' embrace it.



I need to reread that book again, it's been at least 10 if not more years since I did.  There is something in the book that drives me crazy and you see it at Civil War reeactments, watch the HC series Civil War Journal and you will see it in there when they use footage from events.  It's the salt pork, I swear every Civil War reenactor thinks that the army removed the fat back from pigs, put it in barrels of brine and threw the rest of the pig away, either that or they don't think things through.   

The whole hog was cut up and put in the pork barrel, the fatback was used to flavor the messes beans or was sliced and fried to eat only when you were scraping the bottom of the barrel.   Now it you got to the store, what they have for "salt pork" is only fat back, to be used to flavor beans and other purposes it's useful for.  If you want salt pork to match the ration pork you are going to have to buy shoulder, loins or other large cuts of pork and brine them for at least a couple weeks yourself.

If that is not handy, or you don't want to make it, then switch the ration to the dreaded salt beef, aka salt horse, it can be bought in any store, they only cut seen commonly today is brisket, but at least it has meat on it, one can slice it and fry it for individual rations or boil it for the whole mess.  Wait till a week or so after March 17th and you can often buy it cheap and freeze it, most of us know it as corned beef.   Yep either the fatback or the beef does not have quite enough salt in it to keep it like the product of the time.   

   
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Pitspitr on October 24, 2014, 12:23:51 PM
Yep, I knew it...


 :)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Delmonico on October 24, 2014, 12:52:59 PM
Yep, I knew it...


 :)

Well I tend to be fair, someone even used my camera and I think I'm saying, "about 10 minutes till the snow gets here."   
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Blair on October 24, 2014, 12:59:57 PM
Del,

I have never been real fond of Corned Beef.
While in the US Navy, I was waiting in the chow line (aboard ship) for it to open for serving.
Watched one of the Mess cooks open three 25 lbs. cans of Corned Beef in a row. Each of these cans had maggots corned right along with the Beef. This meat had to be maggot infested before it was corned or otherwise preserved!
This was not served to the crew! It was "Shit" canned as we called it. "Thank you Cookie!"
But, it does make the statement toward contracting out to the CHEAPEST producer for Government bids.
Shit canning such large portions of poorly preserved meats, 100 + years ago simply wasn't an option.
Few people understand what is involved with preserving meats today. Thanks for your posting.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Delmonico on October 24, 2014, 01:10:47 PM
Canned corned beef aka bully beef (Brit) or embalmed beef is not the same as corned beef brisket.

If doing a full PC military ration it does not matter if you like it or not, that is the rations and either eat it or go hungry.

Canned corned beef was not issued to the US Army till around the time of the Span/Am War and was used a lot in WWI.  WWII SPAM pretty much took it's place.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Blair on October 24, 2014, 01:34:37 PM
Del,

This canned Corned Beef, in 25 lbs. cans was, (for the most part) full Brisket of corned beef.
Once it had been canned, there was no way to inspect it other opening the can or by weight.

Still not fond of Corned Beef. However, Corned Beefed Hash with eggs on a cool morning, is something can enjoy.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Delmonico on October 24, 2014, 02:01:44 PM
Canned corner beef is made from beef graded as utility, canner and cutter and the whole carcass is deboned and coarsely chopped after brining in salt and a nitrate.   There is only as much brisket as each carcass has on it.   Most sold today in the US and Great Britain (much more popular in Great Britain)  is processed in Brazil from range cattle.  Prior to the Falklands war, most of it was processed in Argentina, but containing  tensions between the two caused the change.   

Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Blair on October 24, 2014, 03:17:21 PM
Okay Del,

Where do you want to go from here?

I thought I was supporting what you had said about preserved meats. Was I incorrect?
Was I incorrect in what I said, or was I incorrect in my offer to support your position on preserved meats?
None of which has anything to do with the original poster question.
My best,
 Blair

Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Delmonico on October 24, 2014, 03:41:40 PM
We are talking about two different methods, one is with a salt/nitrate  brine and the other is canning, so take it where you want.  BTW the nitrate is not needed but it lets the beef have a pink color rather than a grey color.

The calling of the canned corn beef as corned beef brisket was not true and I explained it.   

So I don't see the problem other than you seem to be a bit offended that I made everything clear.  Why are the true facts a problem coming out?   

And I was talking about brined/salt beef as being a more suitable product to buy at the store for Civil War rations over the salted fatback people buy and call salt pork.   Canned corn beef was not on the market till 5 or more years after the Civil War.   
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Niederlander on October 25, 2014, 06:18:46 AM
Returning to our regularly scheduled program.....I was just looking at the Time-Life book "The Scouts".  There are indeed some good pictures of scouts in authentic dress.  This is one case where paintings from the period might be a better source that photographs, as no one seems to have spent a lot of effort to photograph scouts as they appeared in the field.  (There aren't even a lot of pictures of the ARMY in the field from that period, either.)  While the paintings can obviously be a bit romanticized, the better painters had at least SEEN these people as they actually were, so they're not a bad source.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 25, 2014, 07:45:07 AM
I know this may sound silly....but with as much talk as there was earlier about diet, I'm wondering if there should be more in the way of smell and fat stains on the clothing. I'm not saying that re-enactors need go to the trouble of splashing or spattering themselves with grease to look authentic. What I am suggesting is that with as much open-fire cooking as folks did, and as much fatty foods as they were exposed to, seems like a lot of those old old sepia photo-s would reveal a kind of grimey, greasy look to the front of the shirts and jackets as well as the front of the thighs. Put another way, doesn't it seem like a lot of those photo-s show folks to be a bit tidy? I am reading "50 Years on the Trail" by Nelson and his report of living on the plains for months at a time --- and as much hunting and trapping as he did--- I'm guessing the guy should have had a pretty good build-up of stain and organic material on his front. Thoughts?

BTW: I also noticed that Lancaster seems to have laces dangling on the front of his coat as well as what appear to be buttons. I'm thinking that this might be as matter of using whatever is at hand, but it prompt a question. Are there any resources that speak to the providers that sutlers would have gotten their "dry goods" from for resale on the Frontier. I notice that in quite a few of these threads there are references to "dry goods" being sold, but little to describe what and where these goods would have been secured from. Montgomery Wards?  Sears? Did the Military have contracts with particular contractors that furnished goods for resale? Sometimes, for instance,  when I am looking at items for the Military there are things such as pistol holsters that a Service Member might have bought for themselves. I'm wondering if these were locally produced or if there were sources back East that turned such things out in numbers?  Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 25, 2014, 04:11:56 PM
The 'dry goods' that you ask about were supplied by the large mail order houses and wholesalers.

The two largest companies with probably the best-known catalogs were 'Sears, Roebuck & co. and Montgomery Ward & Co.' - they - and wholesalers in Omaha, Chicago and New York supplied the West - initially via steamboat and wagon - then by rail.

The military contracted for foodstuffs on the open market - their Quartermasters purchased locally what livestostock and produce the Post needed, and they were known to drive a hard bargain.

Articles of issue - such as a holster - were provided by the Quartermaster Department - through the Arsenal  - sometimes Rock Island, sometimes Benecia when talking about leather - and issued to the unit as Unit Property, and kept on the Property Books.

If lost or damaged, the soldier who was issued said item was then docked his pay and a new item then issued in place of the lost one - there was no 'store' for him to walk into to buy a replacement.

The Army did not operate a 'Quartermaster Sales' operation during the era - they did not purchase for re-sale - if a soldier wanted a spare, he stole it and hoped not to get caught, or he bought a similar item from a Sutler, who would usually overcharge him for the privilege, but it was often of better quality.

Soldiers 'could' decide to 'lose' an item, if the item had a value to them, like a rubber groundsheet or wool blanket - but money was money, and there was damned little of it in his pockets at the best of times.

Another way was to buy items from the effects of the deceased, and that was a good way to send money home to a loved one.

Soldiers of the Frontier Army weren't paid much - 'when' they were paid - and they didn't accumulate much, because there was no need - they weren't the 'gear whores' of today's Army, with footlockers crammed full of fobbit gear, Rambo knives and Wiley-X shades.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Trailrider on October 25, 2014, 10:46:40 PM
Scouts, teamsters, packers and other employees of the Quartermaster Dept., were paid more than the individual private soldier. In 1875-76, for example, a teamster was paid $30 per month, plus one meal a day! Scouts, such as Buffalo Bill Cody, the Norths, et al, were paid as much as $100 per month! Civilian employees were often in the field with the troops, and supplied with firearms and ammunition, depending on their duties and the likelihood of getting into a firefight with Indians. Sometimes, a trusted scout, such as Frank Gruard were sold a Colt's revolver, and also given another (by General Crook, in this instance). It wasn't uncommon for these people to "lose" a rifle, pistol, etc. In one case, a teamster had around $16 deducted from his pay for the loss of a Trapdoor Carbine, cal. .45, and 100 rounds of ammunition! The latter sounds a bit suspicious IMHO. Essentially, he bought the piece and ammo, since loss or expenditure of ammo in combat was not chargeable! In another case, one of the five Sharps Carbines charged against Co. G, 3rd Cavalry, probably was sold to a young civilian teamster through this process, and he carved his name in the stock to distinguish it from the other four pieces. These were issued to these employees, along with ammo (there were 50,000 rounds of .50-70 ammo a Sidney Barracks, NE, in late fall 1875)! It is probable this teamster liked the carbine so much that he "acquired" it, though the records don't confirm it. There is sufficient circumstantial evidence to confirm the theory, however. 8)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Charles Isaac on October 27, 2014, 11:39:35 AM


Some really great info in this thread! I often wondered about those "lost" and "stolen" Indian War arms.





Each of these cans had maggots corned right along with the Beef. This meat had to be maggot infested before it was corned or otherwise preserved!
This was not served to the crew! It was "Shit" canned as we called it.



I hear of this ceremony in the old Navy and those Sailors would have had a use for that rotten corned beef.

Google  "shellback ceremony" and hit "images". It will really blow your freakin' mind.

Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Blair on October 27, 2014, 01:42:35 PM
Charles,

Be careful... who you antagonize.
We all, now know, that whole Beef Briskets were not corned and canned. Ever!
The "real" canned corn beef was corned, chopped, and then canned, Don't you know anything?  ;)
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 27, 2014, 04:38:13 PM
I guess that stuff about the beef is, in its way, the same sort of thing I am running across concerning Civilian Scout
dress. I have a lot of information about regulations for the Indian Scouts as well as the Infantry and Cavalry troopers
from 1868 to 1890. All well and good. But regarding the Civilian Scouts there just does not seem to be much. As I say, I have posed pictures such as the well-known portrait done of William ("Medicine Bill") Comstock. There are also the fanciful pictures of Buffalo Bill Cody--enbroidery and beads and all. Somewhere there must be pics of these contractors in their "work clothes" rather than their "Sunday-go-ta-meetin'"-s. I'm thinking about simple things like footgear, for instance. I'm guessing boots rather than shoes......a pretty safe guess. But then there is the question of how far up the calf, and whether they favored the cavalry boots or the lighter moccasin boots. I also discovered that belt loops didn't show up before about 1885-1890 or so, which could suggest that braces (aka"suspenders") were a lot more common until then. In the hopes of getting more insight I just finished
"Fifty Years on the Trail"--the autobiography (aka: "as told to") of John Y Nelson but except for his talk of buying store clothes to go back East and impress his family (...he never did make that trip...) there not one word about what he wore.

I'm trying to imagine how a guy who bounced from pillar to post across the great plains and transitioning from Indian village to Wagon Train to town and ranches and back agin would have kept himself covered. The easy answer was to replace whatever wore-out with what was at hand...but that doesn't quite say it, does it? Thoughts?
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Blair on October 27, 2014, 05:03:54 PM
Bruce,

I am sad to say the subject of beef, in any form, ever came up.
I wish I could offer more in your search.
It does seem that some folks have given you some good leads in your quest.
My best,
 Blair
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on October 27, 2014, 07:08:07 PM
Scouts in less formal clothing - more later

Yellowstone Kelly
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/YellowstoneKelly2-2.jpg)

Fred Remington
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/remington-botas.jpg)

Bill Cody
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/bill-cody-3.jpg)

Yuma, AZ - BTW these coats are not buffalo hide turned inside out - the hair on section are add ons and the coats are usually made of lighter weight braintan deer or elk. Below is such a coat and you can see the inside the dark brown is due to heavy smoking for water resistance
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/yuma-scout.jpg)

(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/scout-coat-1.jpg)

Bill Cody wearing that coat
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/bill-cody-2.jpg)

Custer Scouts - Black Hills expedition - California Joe Milner on the far right - the image is from R. L. Wilson's "The Peacemakers's" and the caption lists all names (my copy is on loan or I would post them). Note the gent next to Ca Joe is wearing a buckskin shirt/jacket and what appear to be angora hair on wooly chaps. A second thing to note is that three of these scouts are riding mules and not horses. Mules reportedly did not like Indians (difference in smell?) and vice a versa
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/custer-scouts.jpg)

Hank Wormwood in working clothes - scout for Crook on the Rosebud, etc.
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/hank-wormwood.jpg)

Charles Stobie and Jim Baker standing.
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/c-stobie-jim-baker.jpg)

California Joe Milner - purportedly Custer's favorite Scout
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/ca-joe.jpg)





Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on October 28, 2014, 08:04:41 AM
BINGO!!  Great pics, Chuck!! That really gives me something to go on.
Thanks very much.

BTW: I had head that comment about mules a few times. Apparently they had
a better level of endurance than the vast numbers of Army ponies. I remember
seeing a picture of General Crook and his mount - "Apache" - from his time during the campaigns
in the Southwest. There was also a comment about Wild Bill Hickock using mules
to accomplish some of his dispatch deliveries while a scout. Probably does not cut the romantic image
that a spirited stallion might, but.....

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on October 28, 2014, 12:33:46 PM
You're welcome - the four Custer Scouts on the Black Hills Expedition are:
Will "Medicine Bill" Comstock, chief of scouts. - either this is wrong or the picture is from an earlier expedition/campaign (Washita perhaps?)since Comstock was killed in August of 1868
Ed Guerrier, a half-blood Cheyenne
Thomas Adkins, courier
Moses "California Joe" Milner

Custer in his "Life on the Plains" wrote that he first met Joe near Fort Dodge in October 1868 just prior to the Washita attack:

"He was a man about forty years of age, perhaps older, over six feet in height, and possessing a well-proportioned frame. His head was covered with a luxuriant crop of long, almost black hair, strongly inclined to curl, and so long as to fall carelessly over his shoulders. His face, at least as much of it as was not concealed by the long, waving brown beard and moustache was full of intelligence and pleasant to look upon. His eyes were undoubtedly handsome, black and lustrous, with an expression of kindness and mildness combined. On his head was generally to be seen, whether awake or asleep, a huge sombrero, or black slouch hat. A soldier's overcoat, with its large circular cape, a pair of trousers, with the legs tucked in the top of his long boots, usually constituted the make-up of the man I selected as Chief of Scouts. HE was known by the euphonious title of "California Joe"; no other name seemed ever to have been given him, and no other name appeared to be necessary."
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on October 28, 2014, 01:02:43 PM
Why no pant's belts in the west?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2006, 03:14:39 pm »     

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We've covered this before and there's more in the back pages - but once more - we'll re-visit.

Though 'belts' have been around - 'trouser' belts haven't, since there were no trouser loops.

They're essentially a turn of the century invention.

Braces, galluses, or suspenders - all were used during the time - as were the high-waisted trousers.

They were effectively 'hidden' - both from view and from entanglement - by vests and coats - and 'all' men wore those as working dress.

If you didn't like wearing a pair - for reasons best known to yourself - then the adjustment belt was available at the rear and could be tightened as needed.

Many men did this - using friction to hold their pants in place.

The sewn trouser loop wouldn't become a 'staple' of men's furnishings for many years - despite what's seen in the 'John Ford Reference Library'...

I 'do' like this quote from the Dodge City Live Stock Journal:

"A fashion item says that leather belts are in favor.
They were in favor here at one time.
Perhaps there was a difference in them.
Ours were studded with cartridges, and were very popular..."

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

******

Now that said - for good examples, look at the various reprint catalogs of the big mail order houses, that you can find at both the Public Library and at Barnes & Noble's - they reprinted different pre-1900 editions of both the 'Sears, Roebuck & Co.' and the 'Montgomery Wards & Co.' catalogs, and they're a wealth of information on just what was 'really' worn at the time.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on October 28, 2014, 01:52:11 PM
re: belt loops - while not popular until after 1900 there is a pair of buckskin pants in the Museum of the Fur Trade's "Scouts, Buffalo Hunter's Sketchbook, etc." that does have some so while not common they were apparently used by some. On the other hand the belt or lace up at the back of the pants works well and with high waisted pants a belt can be worn at waist highth and will generally stay in place without loops.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Pitspitr on November 06, 2014, 05:07:34 AM
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o26/RiverCityJohn/Scouts.jpg) (http://s116.photobucket.com/user/RiverCityJohn/media/Scouts.jpg.html)
Cody's coat today

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/661/eiHQYJ.jpg)[/

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/538/3r9W0A.jpg)
IMO The condition of Cody's coat coupled with the fact that he's know to have loaned it to other scouts for photo's, confirms that it was not his everyday go to work coat.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on November 06, 2014, 11:24:46 AM
thanks for the images - first time I've seen the backside. There's one here in Durango in the shorter "scout" style similarly decorated. The bead work looks maybe Arikara.

The gents in that first group image are: E. Green, Wild Bill Hickok, Buffalo Bill Cody, Texas Jack Omohundro and E. Overton - this was a theatrical production in the 1870's.
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on November 06, 2014, 12:10:36 PM
Thanks, Chuck:

I've been also finding quite a bit of confusion about the knives that the scouts are carrying.

References to knives carried by Native Americans always seems to characterize them as "trade goods" or
"butcher knives" which are pretty non-specific descriptions. OTOH, the knives attributed to "Mountain Men"
and on display seem to be more of the Bowie Knife architecture. This wouldn't unsettle me so much
except that judging from the outline of the sheathes in the photographes it seems that the
common-carry was something more along the lines of what we might call a simple Survival Knife albeit
with a heavier and longer (7 inch?) blade. I tried going out to various knife-makers in MUZZLELOADER
magazine but they tend to focus more on the scouting and hunting culture of the Eastern half. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: St. George on November 06, 2014, 01:08:59 PM
You 'do' know that this topic's been discussed many times on the 'Cutting Edge', 'Historical Society' and 'NCOWS' forums, don't you?

Sources are even cited.

Men carried what was obtainable, and the most common knife of the Old West was a skinner - a 'Green River' type - because they were ubiquitous - sold in the towns, and by sutlers, and traders and because they 'worked'.

When one looks at original knives associated with Indians - and Scouts were associated with them - what's seen are the variations of utility blades sold throughout the West and handled with whatever the owner liked - often rawhide-wrapped and tack-decorated.

Surviving knives have often been sharpened to within an inch of their lives, because they were sharpened with rocks, but as long as what was left of the blade held an edge that could cut - it could still be used, so it wasn't discarded.

Scouts Out!
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on November 06, 2014, 03:16:08 PM
as St George noted it's been discussed in detail. The most common knives used by Indians, Mountain Men, and Scouts up through the 1870's were of two basic trade knife types:
1) pre-1850 there was the scalper made mostly by English Sheffield makers such as John Wilson here's an example of an 1820's era scalper - this is from the Museum of the Fur Trades "Fur Trade Cutlery Sketch Book"
http://www.furtrade.org/store/books?product_id=126 - IMO a must have for anyone interested in historic knves:
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/ff-blades/scalper-001.jpg)
These typically had half tangs and thin blades in the 6-8" range

The other style that became the most popular after 1830 (albeit they began being made in the 1770's) was the so-called butcher with the most common blade lengths being 7-10" length and again the blades were thin by modern standards usually no more than 1/8 thick. Thousands were imported from England by again such makers as Wilson, but by the 1840's the Green River knives made by Russell in the USA were making a large dent in the market. Butcher's were made with either half or full tangs with the fill tangs becoming more popular by the 1850's. On the later full tang knives 5 iron pins were used to attach the slabs to the tang. The three cutler rivets as still seen on these knives are post 1880.
Here's a link to a vintage 10" Green River with a five pin handle
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/4/2/5/1/6/9/webimg/605653845_tp.jpg


While other knives such as Bowies, Spanish Belduques, daggers, etc. were available and used by some scouts and later period mountain men the most common knife, if commonality, is important to you then a 7-8" butcher style is the way to go. IMO the big curved skinners were common to buffalo hunters since in reality they are fairly specialized usage knife whereas the butcher was a more general purpose knife. While Russell still makes the Green River in both finished knives as well as blades only they need to be changed to five iron pin handles to be period correct and easy fix especially of you buy the blade only and do the handle yourself or cover the three rivets with a rawhide "repair". On the other hand 1870 and later vintage butchers by Wilson and Russell are often available on Ebay and other sources for decent prices with the bonus you are using a knife from the period you are portraying.  A knife like that carried in a simple Indian style sheath like the one Charles Stobie is wearing would be a very appropriate and commonly used combo by white or mixed blood scouts for the 1860-1870's era:
(http://www.wrtcleather.com/1-ckd/scouts/c-stobie-jim-baker.jpg)
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: Bruce W Sims on November 06, 2014, 03:28:40 PM
What?...no Elkhorn handles or brass fittings?

Sheesh ::)

BTW: I went to GOOGLE Images to confirm a suspicion about the Green River Buffalo Skinners.

I gotta tell ya that as "popular" as they may have been it seems that extreme curve would really
make them stand out. I've gotta feeling that this may be one of those DIY sorts of things.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Title: Re: Ulzana's Raid - Scout Dress
Post by: ChuckBurrows on November 06, 2014, 03:33:53 PM
BTW - even period Bowies seldom had thick blades with the majority being no more than 3/16" just forward of the spine with a distally tapered blade - a blade tapering/thinning in width from the guard to the tip even on the blade lengths of 8-12". While some period blades were thicker, thicker blades - 1/4" and more, are a more modern concept for survival/military use. In the past knives were generally used as knives and not as pry bars or for cutting metal container straps or opening cans, etc. as is not uncommon today in a survival/military usage and for fighting a thicker 1/4"+ blade really has no more advantage than a blade of around 1/8" thick at the spine.