Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: King Medallion on April 08, 2021, 09:38:45 AM
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I'm having a bit of trouble getting my Presidio to cycle a round. I appears that the lifter doesn't lift high enough, and the round is catching on the chamber face. At this time, all I have for bullets are 400gr flat nose that really look like SWC's, (got them from Big Lube) and some 292gr (Blue Falcon). Both type will chamber and the bolt closes nice and tight, the way it's supposed to. I tried making a couple dummy rounds in hopes of getting something to work, so far, zilch. Neither bullet has a crimping groove. This afternoon I am going to make a couple more but with BP loaded but a fired/spent primer to keep from spillage. I don't think its the ammo. It just looks like the lifter isn't lifting high enough. Is there an adjustment for this kind of thing? Getting a little frustrated here.
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These guns are very sensitive to over all cartridge length and bullet shape. I tried the 292’s and if memory is correct, I had to crimp in the top grease groove in order to get it to feed. The desired overall length should be around 2.6 to 2.9” and this is dependent on the bullet nose shape. Your 400 SWC prolly wont work at all.
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If the cartridge elevator does not rise high enough, then maybe you need to add some metal to the end of the arm that enters the cavity at the bottom of the elevator?
I would probably start by adding a glob of epoxy glue or JB-Weld to test the concept out, unless I had a Tig-welding machine sitting idle in the garage...
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Has this rifle been working good, but since changing something it now has feed problems? OR - is this a new to you rifle that has never fed properly? If never fed properly, try pressing up on the carrier a tad to see if it will then feed. If it does, then put a dab of epoxy on top to test that as a working solution. ONLY after assuring the dab of epoxy works, then look at bending the lift arm slightly. That's an easy thing and can be put back to stock fairly easy.
Good luck - just realized, this is a 1876 rifle since it's posted in the 1876 forum.
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What KenH said. Was it okay before? Push up on the carrier from the bottom to see if it goes up a tad and then the round chambers okay. Make sure the carrier spring screw is tight (on the bottom of the receiver on the right side).
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It's my new Presidio carbine, haven't even fired it yet. I just loaded some .montana bullets I forgot I ordered, 365 gr fn. Does the same thing. I'll try your suggestion tomorrow. Thanks.
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Reference the lifter not “rising” enough to feed when your lever is at full throw forward, the lifter on my Presidio protrudes .185” above the receiver when measured at the forward most corner of the lifter on both sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dy1t1nJG/076-EAF22-B37-C-46-B4-94-ED-FFDFE790-EA46.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Check yours and see how it compares, there may be some junk in the receiver or a burr that’s keeping it from moving as far as needed to feed.
By the way, both my Presidio and my Chappy run flawlessly with my handloads using Montana Bulletworks 365 grain WFN’s that measure 2.258 OAL.
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DOK, check your PM's, I sent you one a few days ago.
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Replied to your pm.
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Checked receiver height, it protruded .164. Was no lifting it any higher either.
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King ,, PM sent.
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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For another data point I measured the lifter protrusion on mine .166". It functions flawlessly. Perhaps the trough is a little deeper on yours. From the top of the lifter to the bottom of the trough, mine measures 1.010".
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OK, I measured the depth of mine, it reads 1.0235. Thats to the bottom of the slot. Is the slot supposed to be there? Looking at the 45/75, it has a slot too.
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Its your ammo
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Lifter depth on mine (to the bottom of the slot) is 1.010” as well.
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Is the slot supposed to be there? Looking at the 45/75, it has a slot too.
Yes, the slot is the guide for the bolts' cartridge lip or rim tab (that little lip on the bottom of the bolt) rides in it, to get the cartridge lined up to the chamber. They are on all of Winchester toggle link cartridge lifters.
PS. Checked my Chaparral and the distance between 'top of lifter to the bottom of the slot' is 1.024". My 45/60 casing feed with ease. My belief and intent with Win toggles -- is to stay with originally designed or modern produced - original looking bullet shapes.
The tapered shape of a semi-wadcutter bullet could and has (in my case) led to the leading guide ring catching the chamber mouth. Original designed 'cone shaped' bullets allow the 'riding in and up' of the bullet and casing.
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Ok, I'll fiddle around with the ammo some more. Thanks for the help.
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King,
Try looking for something like this bullet... see link. https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/56-50-spencer-rcbs-82309-350/
or this.... https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/50-lyman-515139-330gr-bp-exp-fn/
Now, I do not know if either will give you the correct OAL but both are better designs than any SWC bullet and is still in your weight range.
Also, have you given up on casting your own?
If not then look for a Spencer 50cal mold as an option. Or go to the Spencer Forum above and see if someone has a 'cut down Lee 515-450' mold to drop a 350gr bullet, they would sell. It should be cheaper than an Accurate mold.
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No, I haven't given up on casting my own, just with the covid bs everything is out of stock everywhere. Montana bullet is not taking orders because they are so far behind. haven't been able to find a mold that isn't stupid money either. If anyone want's to cast some for me, of course I would pay, I can size and lube myself.
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I can send you a few Rapine 350s to try. These feed flawlessly in my Uberti 1876. At least that can help determine if it's a cartridge problem or a rifle problem.
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That would be awesome! PM on the way!
Thank you!
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Just ordered my first mold, an Accurate 51-350CL, 2 cavity.
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Good for you. Went to website and looked up the design. Looks like it will work for ya, since they labelled it for the 50/95.
Good luck, it can be fun and relaxing.
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Just ordered my first mold, an Accurate 51-350CL, 2 cavity.
Questions
1) What is your brass? -(348 based stuff - 50 alaskan etc is smaller rim diameter than the old original specs)
so 2) where is the base of the case in relation to the extractor and bottom tab as you cycle forwards? (thinking here that a smaller diameter rim could allow the round to hang down a little as it rests on the tab and then its skewey going in the chamber ?
just a thought - its a big fat near straight wall case - not gonna feed as easy as the others with more taper (like the others I would be looking to blame boolit nose shape first though)
(The bottom of the chamber on my 45/75 has quite a noticeable chamfer on the bottom edge) - maybe all around?
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Its Jamison 50/95 virgin brass. Can't tell you the rest right now, at work.
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Its Jamison 50/95 virgin brass. Can't tell you the rest right now, at work.
more'n likely made correct original size - if so my theory is no help (like a lot of theories eh? :)
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KM - How did those bullets I sent you work out? Does it cycle better?
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Haven't tried them yet, on the road getting home today from a hog hunt. I'll get on them this week!
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Ok, hope they help!
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Made a couple dummy rounds with these Rapine 350 bullets. They feed! However, something is still not right. Sometimes the bolt appears to bind on the carrier. Other times the shell gets caught kittycorner coming out of the tube. I'm thinking a trip for an action job will be necessary. I'm going to powder up a few of these bullets to try at the range.
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Took this thing out and shot it for the 1st time today. I used the 1st loads I made of Trail Boss and the Blue Falcon 276gr rfn bullets. They don't feed worth a hoot, but the first 2 shot ok (missed the bowling pin out there about 50 or so yards. 3rd round jammed up tight because the 4th round followed the 3rd out of the tube. Had to use a key to push the 4th round back into the tube, and while doing so the 3rd rounds bullet got push back into the case. (There is no crimp groove in these bullets.) All in all rather disappointed so far, something ain't right and I don't know what or how to fix it. At least it went BANG when the trigger got squeezed, so there's that.
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Did those small bullets still allow for proper overall length?
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They are short enough, but there is something else going on. The bolt seems like its binding on the carrier, shells coming out of the tube more than one at a time.
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I was thinking they may be too short. But if something is binding, you may need to take it apart to see what's going on. There may just be a burr somewhere.
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I think so too. I will try that, see what I can find.
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Yeah, that did sound sort of like too short of a cartridge for the "double feed". If you can load one round through the loading gate and it feeds fine, but loading two makes it jam, then the round is too short (determined by the location of the ramp on the front of the carrier). Does the binding you mention occur with the gun empty or only when trying to chamber ammo?
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When chambering a round
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Does the brass have any scratches on it after cycling? New rifles often have a lot of sharp edges, burrs and even remsining machining debris. If the brass is dragging across a sharp edge. It could feel like binding. Look at your brass (and bullets) with a magnifier for evidence of this.
I may be wrong, but I'm thinking that a teardown of the action is in order. Clean, deburr, polish and lubricate everything. Somewhere I have an article about tuning up a '76. But it's essentially the same process as a '73. There are quite a few online guides on how to do it. The single most important thing is properly fitted screwdrivers.
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PM sent .
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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Thanks guy's, for all your suggestions. I'll take it apart and have a look see. I've got a hammer/chisel, even a couple stones. Yes, the brass is getting scratched up a bit. I've watched a couple vid's on youtube on gunsmithing the 76, so I'll be revisiting them also. Those light weight Blue Falcon bullets appeared to be hanging up on the brass while chambering. I think because there is no crimp groove in those bullets. I'll play with it when time allows. I can always load/shoot them single shot to get rid of them.
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If the binding is while you try to close the lever to push the cartridge into the chamber, then try pushing up on the carrier from the bottom while closing the lever to see if that is smoother. If so, the carrier is not staying all the way up, usually due to insufficient tension from the carrier spring.
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:) Hummmmmmm ;)
Normally, a '76 wouldn't be in my wheel house, but I did work on a few in the past, and a Toggle Link Rifle is a Toggle Link Rifle.
A bullet with an excessively wide nose will hang up on the Barrel Breach Face. Anything even looking like a Semi-Wadcutter will hang up on the Barrel Breach Face. It's a Tube Magazine feel rifle. It will not play well without a firm crimp. Bullets without a crimp groove are a waste of time. They WILL turtle.
The "Double Feed" indicates your ammunition is too short. The Nose of the round in the Carrier Block has to be long enough to hold the next round far enough in the Magazine for the Return Ramp to be able to push the next round back into the tube.
The tolerance between the "Knob" of the Carrier Block Arm and the Raceway in the Carrier Block is such, you will not be able to get much if any Epoxy to change the lift. The lift can be changed slightly by CAREFULLY bending the Arm.
ALWAYS work on the cheapest part FIRST.
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Thank you for the tip. Sounds like I have a bunch of single shot bullets.
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Sorry I missed your OAL for your rounds???
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
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Sorry I missed your OAL for your rounds???
coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.
I'll agree with Coffin Maker ----double feed sez round too short - forget the book specs and load to suit the rifle.
Using blackpowder? yees? use enough powder compression to support the rounds from "turtling"
maybe forget the crimp groove and crimp into the top of the lube groove or just crimp wherever is best length for the gun
needs some crimp to turn the neck of the case in or else that will hang up on the chamber mouth .
My Uberti (45/75 rifle) has a quite noticeable chamfer on the chamber mouth
I cut some of my cases short and crimp into the top of the lube groove.
If I make em full chamber length and crimp over the ogive = use the powder column to support the boolit position - that works too
blackpowder makes life easy assembling rounds for lever guns.
I get your frustration!!!!!!!.
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KM - Any updates on your problem? Enquiring minds want to.know ;D
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Nothing yet, been bizzy.
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Just ordered my first mold, an Accurate 51-350CL, 2 cavity.
The mold finally arrived today! Vacation next week to Kentucky, then I will dive into this casting thing. I bought an old Lyman model 61 bottom pour pot at a gun show awhile ago, and got a Lyman 45 Colt mold too. And a bunch of lead. So now its a matter of finding that last ingredient, time.
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Mr. King if you find a supply of that time ingredient let me know, I have run short of that most all my life and in retirement it is not to be found!!
Seriously, good luck with it and keep us posted on the outcome.
P.B.
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So, loading up a few of the Barnes 450 JFN, AOL is 2.25. Feed and function perfectly, so far. I got some 330g bullets from Montana Bullet works I'm going to try also, with BP. I got a set of CH4D dies now so I'm fiddling with the settings. I will be using the RCBS bullet seat die to crimp alone.