Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: Drydock on May 05, 2021, 09:23:13 PM
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https://www.gunbroker.com/item/896032335
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I think that one is Armi San Marco.
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...nice piece!
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No, it's a 2nd model. ASM only made the 1st Model.
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I think that one is Armi San Marco.
Has A Uberti engraved on the barrel ( 4th photo )
Drydock is spot on
I also took note of the vendors other listings :D
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Shot my 7 inch 45 colt schofields yesterday 1 is about 2-3 inches high at 10 yards the other an equal amount low. I find the hammer a bit of a reach for my strong hand thumb. I may need a bit of sight black to aid in picking up the front sight
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My winter acquisitions, 2x rare S&Ws. A New Model #3 Australian, & a DA 44 in 38 WCF. Both appear to be functional, will take to range next week.
Have sent a couple hundred to S&W Historical Society to get papered.
Brian
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Bought it. It'll match well with my 5" Navy Arms Schofield. Good use for my latest government check. At least when the country is bankrupt my grandkids will have something of value. The Navy Arms ones had the best Black Powder Bevel on the cylinder, and mine works well with Triple 7 in the CS case, and a 454190 with beeswax/olive oil in the grooves.
Navy Arms had the best box too.
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Nice, congrats :)
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Got it. 1997 production, unfired, very nice feeling action, SN 4XXX. The little sepia toned warning paper, telling you the line on the cylinder from the bolt is normal for this action, is still in the box. Wonder where this thing has been for 24 years? The SN on my 2003 5" Schofield indicates under 1000 a year production.
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Well, I thought it was unfired, sure looks like it, but on the kitchen table this morning, took it apart to remove certain lawyer accursed parts, and they're already gone! No wonder it felt so good. Maybe (?) it's unfired, surely no more than a cylinder or two.
So out to the range. Smokeless loads grouped nice, right where I pointed at 7 yards. Then I started feeding BP rounds into it. 25 grains 3f OE under a BL PRS bullet in the S&W case. 50 rounds later I had to stop because the box was empty and I'm low on primers for reloads. But this thing eats Black Powder like no other Schofield I've ever handled. Felt like 50 rounds of smokeless. Cylinder still spins free. Whoopee!
My 5" Schofield will tolerate 777, brought some of those along to try, but this one shoots the real stuff no problem. This one's coming to the Grand Muster.
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I think Drydock is getting more attention for his Uberti because it is almost unheard of for one of those to be able to work so well with BP.
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Yup! ;D
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I guess my previous post looks a little odd since the post that prompted it has been removed, but that's okay. Still very impressive, Drydock! I feel sure the big lube bullet must have been the key.
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Yeah, I'm a little over the top here, but its truely been unusual the way this thing has worked. I want to try it with the 454190 bullet when I can get some more primers.
Honestly, I orginally posted the link because I thought it would be a good deal for someone else, but ended up buying it myself after a while.
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Would you explain ..." took it apart to remove certain lawyer accursed parts, ???
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Hammer block.
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Drydock,
I am green with envy. My S&W 2000 Schofield won't get through 5 rounds of black powder before locking up tight from the fouling. And this with OE and Big Lube bullets. I'm going to try Black MZ (supposedly the same as APP) since I have a pound or so left. It's not supposed to foul near as much as the real stuff.
Dave
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I've found 777 works decent in my other Schofield. I get a little drag, but it does not tie up. My #3 Russian also works well with it, I'll probably transition all my top break loads to that just to have the same loadings for all. For a while it was the only powder of any kind I could get!
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Drydock,
I am green with envy. My S&W 2000 Schofield won't get through 5 rounds of black powder before locking up tight from the fouling. And this with OE and Big Lube bullets. I'm going to try Black MZ (supposedly the same as APP) since I have a pound or so left. It's not supposed to foul near as much as the real stuff.
Dave
The S&W 2000 was touted (by S&W) to be a duplicate of the original. It WAS NOT! The original Schofields had the cylinder that was shorter than a Colt's SAA so that it would not accept the .45 Colt's round. I have never been able to find documentation, but I believe the reason for the shorter cylinder was because the original prototype could not handle the full-power Colt's Army round. Therefore, S&W shortened the cylinder and extended the barrel back to meet the front face of the cylinder. The Army then came out with the .45 Revolver Ball ammo (nowadays known as .45 Schofield). When logistics foulups resulted in Schofield-armed troops getting supplied with the longer Colt's round, the Army discontinued the latter and issued the shorter round for both guns. When Uberti, et al, came out with the replicas, they stayed with the original frame size, extending the cylinder so it would handle the .45 Colt's round. The problem with that is that it eliminated the barrel extension, so BP doesn't work well. When S&W came out with the 2000, they SHORTENED THE FRAME so the cylinder is the shorter version, but nobody could substitute a longer cylinder. Problem may be that it won't handle BP that well either.
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Just to continue the speculation: This Schofield has a rather long, generous forcing cone, combined with a relatively tight (.008) barrel /cylinder gap. Forcing cones vary wildly on the Uberti's, from ones like mine to none at all. It is my thought that a more generous cone leads to better operation with BP, catching and holding more of the lateral dispersal behind the bullet until the pressure drop of the bullets departure draws more particulate matter down the bore. Also a tighter cylinder gap increases the velocity of the escaping gas/fouling, helping keep the cylinder face cleaner. (Bernoulli's law) My 5" Schofield has a decent forcing cone, but not as good as the new one. (That is actually older) I also have a Uberti #3 Russian in .44 RUssian, and it's cone splits the difference between the two schofields, and it's performance reflects it.
Most recent production I've seen tends toward the "None at all" end of the spectrum.
Simply put, I suspect the better performing Italian top breaks have proper forcing cones. Opening up the forcing cone to proper spec would help a lot on many I feel. Combine with a generous lube capacity in a smaller case (Russian, Schofield, C.S.) you might get acceptable performance. I cannot speak for the 2000 S&Ws, but it probably would not hurt to check.
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...Simply put, I suspect the better performing Italian top breaks have proper forcing cones. Opening up the forcing cone to proper spec would help a lot on many I feel. ...
Interesting theory. It should be a good project for some Schofield owner (who hasn't been able to shoot BP in it) to load up some BP ammo and test by shooting some and documenting how long til binding up. Then cleaning gun, opening cone, and shooting same ammo. Then later they could try other things like different ammo or bullets.
I wonder if 11 degrees would be the goal, similar to some SAA's?
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I am fairly certain most know the largest reason the Replica Schofields (include the Smythe 2000) do not fair well on BP. When Uberti lengthened the cylinder to accept 45 Colt (why were they dumb enough to do that), the longer cylinder eliminated a very important Cylinder Bushing that was also, by design, a superb deflector of Gun Gas.
Also, the forcing cone at the barrel breach is quite important. I a "sort of" answer to Abilene's question, I, for years have added the popular 11 degree forcing cone to ALL of the Cap Guns I build.
I have heard from several sources, of folks having good luck with 44 Russian cases in Schofield and some success with Cowboy 45 Special. No Guarantee though, as this is second and third hand information. My own experience, first hand, is Replica Schofield DO NOT play well with BP. Best of luck though. Schofields should play with BP.
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If you go to the 'Frontier Iron' forum and do some digging, you'll find that a myriad of questions and answers will tell you the tale of the Schofield.
You'll learn about the S&W Model 2000 and how it came to be, the early replicas and their manufacturers, gunsmithing and reloading for same.
Scouts Out!
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I will offer my personal perspective on why the lengthening of the Schofield cylinder to .45 Colt was a good business idea. Personally, even though I do reload, I probably would not have gotten a Schofield had it only been in .44 Russian. I now own two of them because I could use the Colt round, simplifying my ammo logistics. Not being a shooter of the holy black, they run fine on smokeless. But I think there are a lot of shooters out there like me, that a Schofield in .44 Russian would have been bypassed.
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...Simply put, I suspect the better performing Italian top breaks have proper forcing cones. Opening up the forcing cone to proper spec would help a lot on many I feel. ...
I've had 2 Uberti Schofields. The first one shot black all day long and wouldn't foul out. It was one of the short barreled models and I wanted the full army length barrel. When I got the chance to buy a full length model, I gave the shorty to my son. Now the full length model has been a lemon from day 1. It didn't have the least bit of a forcing cone, so I bought a forcing cone cutting kit from Brownell's and proceeded to cut one. I actually ended up cutting the cone a little too deep even, but it still won't shoot BP.
Of course, it wouldn't shoot smokeless without locking up either (until I found the issue, but that's another story)
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If ya'll would just shoot Colts like God intended, you wouldn't have these problems!
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If ya'll would just shoot Colts like God intended, you wouldn't have these problems!
I'm very inclined to agree with you and think the Ordnance Dept should have followed that advice in 1875 but no they had to play with the Schofield and ultimately ruin the issue 45 Colt cartridge to allow for the wimpier S&W (lol).
To understand what shooting a Schofield was like I bought the S&W 2000 version when I got the chance. The man who sold it to me said he didn't think it would run with BP but I was hoping Big Lube bullets and higher grades of BP would make it possible. Hope springs eternal but don't take it to the bank. Big Lube bullets and OE powder still fouled the Schofield so bad I couldn't get through more than 4 shots in a row.
Dave
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The numbers would indicate these things are built in small batchs, mostly by hand. Everything varies, including cylinder to frame clearance. A few thousanths here and there is probably the difference between one that works with BP and the ones that just won't. Cases that are in the .44 Russian volume range seem to work best. I'm very lucky to have one that works great, and two that are acceptable.
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Neither S&W nor Uberti built these to be used with black powder - that someone would do so didn't even register.
Scouts Out!
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Neither S&W nor Uberti built these to be used with black powder - that someone would do so didn't even register.
Scouts Out!
Short sighted fools, both of them! Who builds antique designed firearms and and never considers they might be fired with the original ammunition and propellent? Guess S&W and Uberti do.
Dave
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To be fair, I suspect less than 1% of purchasers would have even tried BP, and they have to be chambered for readily available factory ammunition that does not exceed their pressure tolerance. BP ammunition pretty much requires handloading, which voids the warrenty. Frankly, the vast majority of folks who have bought these are not CAS shooters either.
To even have them being made at all is something of a marketing miracle. I'm amazed Uberti is still making them 26 years later.
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To be fair, I suspect less than 1% of purchasers would have even tried BP, and they have to be chambered for readily available factory ammunition that does not exceed their pressure tolerance. BP ammunition pretty much requires handloading, which voids the warranty. Frankly, the vast majority of folks who have bought these are not CAS shooters either.
To even have them being made at all is something of a marketing miracle. I'm amazed Uberti is still making them 26 years later.
Exactly, and not only still making them , but still introducing variations I:E: the latest American model.
S&W discontinued their offering as non-profitable in the niche market, however
Uberti, nothing short sighted or foolish, thrives there as USFA's Donnelly ultimately discovered.
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Well then I stand corrected!
Dave
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I have loaded BP, Pryodex, and 777 for the Schofield. My best results were with FFG Goex, a big grove SPG lubed bullet, a grease cookie under the bullet, and the cylinder arbor greased up with SPG. IIRC, I could get about two stages with it, before I had to start squirting it with Moose Milk between stages. It seemed to get the fouling but not the grease.
I handled an original Schofield and have shot some original No. 3 Russians. They all had a generous baffle on the front of the cylinder around the arbor, protruding well below the rear of the barrel and forcing cone. It was effective at keeping BP fouling off the innards of the cylinder and around the barrel. A few years ago, someone was actually retrofitting Schofields with an Uberti Open Top style baffle.
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Driftwood Johnson has posted pics in the past about his Schofield with "BP friendly" mods machined by Happy Trails.
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Original S&W Top breaks of all types also had quite a dramatic cut away sculpting at the topstrap juncture above the barrel to help divert fouling away from that critical area. I doubt modern pressure/strength requirements would allow that to be done now.
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Driftwood Johnson has posted pics in the past about his Schofield with "BP friendly" mods machined by Happy Trails.
Just sent a PM to Happy Trails asking what modifications were done and if he's still doing that kind of work. Hope to hear something positive on the subject.
Dave
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fwiw put 43 bp rounds thru it today. One fast session out on the farm to clear a box of loose rounds to reload. These were 20 grains 3f Olde Eynesford beneath a 454190 lubed with 50/50 olive oil/beeswax, in a CS case. Wanted to reload with 3f 777 so they would work in my other Schofield as well. 85 degrees, 70% humidity. No hangups, no drag, cylinder still spun free after the last round. And it was HOT! Very accurate as well, all my 45s really like that bullet. Not as much powder as the earlier rounds, but not as much lube either. Teardown for clean shows almost no fouling on the arbor. Lube was straight Ballistol.
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I wouldn't mind my Schofield being able to shoot BP. I wonder how much it costs to put that collar on....
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Make sure you've got a good forcing cone, and try the CS case with a well lubed bullet. It might work fine!
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:) Actually ;)
Wabac (thank the Perfesser and Sherman), Lengthening the Schofield Cylinder to be chambered in 45 Colt was a VERY good idea. All one ever heard or read or saw was some tyro whining and complaining they really really wanted a Schofield, but it wasn't available in 45 Colt. Uberti obliged. Smart Business.
Also correct, the Replicant Schofields were never intended for BP. After all, why would modern shooters want BP!! Perish the thought. S&W thought the same when they brought the Schofield back under their own Moniker, also with the long cylinder. My question has ALWAYS been, "Why would you want 45 Colt??" The gun is just fine with 45 Schofield cartridges and even better with 44 Russian cartridges.
Would that someone somewhere would be willing to cut back either Uberti or S&W Cylinders and include to old BP Bushing. Or, Better yet, manufacture an "accessory" Cylinder with said Bushing. There is an outfit that makes accessory cylinders for Ruger Old Army. Might be something right up their alley.
Play Safe Out There
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But if you came out with a shorter cylinder, how would you lengthen the barrel?
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But if you came out with a shorter cylinder, how would you lengthen the barrel?
Good point. As for why would they think anyone would shoot black powder in a Schofield. They might have given a thought to the hundreds of thousands of "black powder" revolvers they and their fellow Italian gun makers have sold in the United States. We stupid Americans seem to like shooting the old propellent, unlike all those enlightened Italians.
Dave