56-56 & 56-50s - Originals and centerfire - a basic Comparison

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Attached is a photo of original rimfire Spencer rounds next to thier modern centerfire conversion counterparts.

56-50:

On the left is a Taylor's 56-50 with .512 Modified LEE 350 grain bullet in a Starline case.  Next to it is a military 56-50 rimfire with no headstamp  

Besides the orignal being rimfire and copper, it is slightly longer and heavily crimped over the ogive of a .515 to .520 diameter bullet to insure maximum combustion (Christopher Spencer thought this was too much crimp, and introduced his 56-52 rimfire with a healed bullet like the 56-56.  It is interchangable with the Military 56-50)

.56-56:

On the far right is a modern centerfire .56-.56. It loaded with 4-D dies and uses a Buffalo Arms modified 50-70 case cut to just over an inch (about 1.012"). It is loaded with the Rapine 370 grain, .535 diameter healed  bullet (.512 heal),  outside lubed (like 22 rimfire) with Alox lube on the exterior of the bullet, though I rubbed off most for the picture.

Next to it is an original Civil War vintage .56-56 rimfire (which was actually designated as "No. 56 cartridge for Army and Navy Spencer repeaters"  The number .56 refered to the case diameter at both base and mouth.  It was actually nominally .54 caliber, with bullets I have checked ranging from .536 to .542. You will notice it is copper, and only .85 inch with a 375 grain outside lubed bullet.  

The reason it has a shorter case than the modern cases is that its bullet had a very short heal with a deep groove that the very mouth of the copper case crimped tightly into.  The Modern Rapine bullet ( RAP 535370) has a longer heal than the original, so BAC makes the cases .2 inch longer to help grip this longer heal.  Modern brass cases can not form the same way copper did, and rely on a shallow taper crimp.

With the .56-56, I find that very hard cast .535 bullets (I use wheel weight lead with some linotype added) stay crimped better and lead the barrel far less.  I tried pure lead, but the crimp would not hold  (especially with heavily compressed loads), and they tended to come apart feeding in some original Spencers.

Note:  GAD custom Cartridges offers original length .85 inch case, though these must be used with the Rapine 546375 mould that has a shorter heal.  You would need to cut down the 4-D crimp die to use the shorter GAD casess, as 4-D is regulated for the BAC 1.12 cases.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I might add that my 1860 pimp gun likes the hard cast 535370 bullet over 38.5 grains volume of 777 FFG.  Last night, after replacing the front sight with a taller one,  I shot a 1" center to center 5 shot group from a rest at 25 yards.  It was basicly a large, ragged hole.

Later, I had gone back to the house, about 125 yards+ from the burm on the range below the house. It was at about 45 degree angle from the back deck to the burm. I found I had 6 rounds left in my jacket pocket.  I loaded up the Spencer on the back deck, and aimed at a pop can on the burm, 125 yards away.  All six shots either hit the can or bounced it around.

[Crazeyiven]

Tuolumne Lawman-

What OAL on the center fire...esp the 56-50?

Thanks

David

[Appalachian Ed]

David -

My 1860 Romano likes OAL 1.590. That's a 280gr. Romano custom mold over 37gr. FFF Goex in a Cut down BB 50-70 case with the rim turned down a bit. Feeds like butter. Lead is hard 19-1 Linotype to Pure lead.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Ed, I had some Romano bullets once and I had always thought his were 320 gr. Granted, I never weighed one. 

[Crazeyiven]

Appalachian Ed-

Thanks for the information.  The details were helpful.

Thanks again,

David

[Appalachian Ed]

I just weighed a bunch, and with the alloy I am casting using they are 307gr. The mould blocks are marked 280, so I have always assumed they were 280 gr.  Thanks for the input!

[Black River Smith]

Appalachian Ed,

I am curious, What make is the rifle you are firing in your attached photo.

Looks like a brass frame, centered hammer, no forearm, a dropping lever/block.

Looks like a Maynard

[Appalachian Ed]

It's a Keen & Walker Confederate carbine. Sometimes refered to as a Confederate Maynard or Perry. approx. 282 were made in 1862 for the confederacy by Keen & Walker of Dansville, VA. Mine is a Romano copy. Larry Romano is the only person to ever reproduce this carbine, and he did so in VERY limited quanities. He has made around 37 of these. They are exact in every detail to an original.
The gun has a tilting breech that is loaded with either loose powder and a bullet, or with a paper cartridge. There is a brass sliding seal that is 'dragged' forward by the expanding skirt of the bullet that seals it up when fired. It leaks NO gas when fired.  I shoot a .54 Lyman improved minie over 35 gr. FFF goex.

[Fox Creek Kid]

If I'm not mistaken, Stonewall Jackson was reputed to have been mortally wounded with one, Ed.

[Black River Smith]

Very nice and unique.

Thanks

[Appalachian Ed]

That's the story, it was a Keen that killed Jackson.

[Militaria-books]

Thanks Tuolumne Lawman - this information on the 56-56 was very helpful to me and I am looking into getting a reloading set.

[El Supremo]

Hello, and thanks on the General Stonewall Jackson - Keen and Walker history:

Sorry to butt-in, but please allow me to add a bit so it's not lost.

As of 06SEP25, I have two of the Romano Keen's, #'s 30, which Larry made for me, and #37, which Larry made for a now retired skirmisher.  Both are unfired.  I have not gotten around to firing them, and so far, neither has Larry fired his #1. FWIW, I have asked on the N-SSA Forum who has Keen skirmishing experience, with zero responses.  Appalachian Ed was very kind to chat with me years ago. 

History:
You can make of the following, whatever you might.  The big, thick book about Gen. Jackson's life has no specific firearm death details other than several shots happened. Romano's older website did include a comment that while more than one shot was fired, a Keen fired the fatal one.

Years ago, I asked Larry for more info.  He shared that after he built his and it was introduced on display in his Ft. Shenandoah booth, he walked with two friends one evening across the bridge over Back Creek.  He was hailed by a skirmisher sitting there who said his family were kin to Gen. Jackson, and family oral history included the fatal shot came from a Keen. 
Larry told me that the person sent him a letter about the matter, but it's lost in his shop files.  Larry said others in his family read the letter. He also said older N-SSA Forum archives included all this, but those archives are lost. Based on over twenty-five years of close dealings with Larry, I trust his memory on this. Thanks and smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[shilohdiver]

does anybody have any ideas on how to get a good crimp on a 56/56 bullet?

[El Supremo]

Hello, shilohdiver:

An excellent question!

I have not crimped 56-56's, and for limited tests relied on the bullet heel to be a reasonably tight, friction fit in the case mouth.

Joel Foss, in Maine, gave me several original 56-56/56/50 rounds in good condition. The COPPER cases are about half as thick as present day center fire BRASS ones.  The original copper 56-56 rounds are slightly crimped with the bullet's OD at the case mouth being a few thou less than the OD of crimped case mouth.

My guess is those are slightly crimped, but in a way that did not materially reduce the exposed bullet OD.  I recall many here sharing the orig 56-56 bores had deeper grooves at the start of the breech's rifling, and ALL the chamber casts I have of original 56-56 chambers present a lengthy tapered leade into the rifling, not a shoulder.  Maybe that chamber design was a way to manage the odd round profile for minute of blouse accuracy.

There are, via Google AI search of How is the case crimp imparted on 22 rimfire ammo? Images —- some interesting stuff.  I think I saw a pliers-wire insulation stripping tool that imparted a collar crimp.  Ingenious.

Might call Ch4D. 

My recollection, from a 1974 meeting in the garage of Ferris Pindell, who made some of Win's 22 dies, at least Winchester used a complicated split collar and angled fingers to impart a "rolled" case mouth.  I recall seeing a photo of a 1980's setup, possibly from Corbin, that allowed the uncrimped round to spin on rollers with a pressure edge pushed by hand on the case neck. There is an old book on how factory produced 22 rimfire was made.  I think it was about Aquilla's line in the Phillipines.

Uniformity of rimfire, heeled target 22LR ammo crimp is a big deal.  Bullet "pull" variation impacts velocity spread.  While seemingly less important for us, velocity spreads of over 60 fps within 850-950fps muzzle velocities can create misses on skirmishing targets at 100 yards. 

Hopefully guru's here have a simpler way that avoids one's teeth. Smiles.
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny

[shilohdiver]

I wonder if a hand held pipe cutter could be used if the cutting wheel was ground down and it just applied pressure to tighten the neck instead of cutting the brass

[El Supremo]

Hello:

More pondering:

CH4D knows what it's doing, and makes 56-56 dies that reportedly impart crimp.

I measured an original 56-56 and found that there is about .0025" less bullet main body OD above the crimp. That seems to be the key aspect.

The accuracy issue of the bullet's main body OD being reasonably mated to a particular rifle's groove OD, AND fit the case mouth has been my challenge, especially with cut-down .935" long 56-56 cases having .019" thick walls.  These can be managed if the bullet to bore fit produces desired accuracy. 

Last I read here, CH4D had run some 56-56 dies, which are otherwise a long wait item. 

Smiles,
El Supremo/Kevin Tinny