Sorry you had to find out the 'hard' way.  I don't think I would have guessed that after all these years they would be producing a 0.427" barrel in a '72 OT.  I would be curious as to what market they did this for.

I have for years now, after changing from BP to smokeless been slugging the barrels on everything that I get or question, just to be on the safe side.  Example is -- I have 3 - 44/40 pistols and 3 - 44/40 rifles. Yes, they do have different diameters.  Two older pistols and two older rifles have 0.427.  One newer Uberti pistol has 0.429 which I purposely bought to put a 44Spec cylinder in, for the correct 0.429.  The other rifle is a Rossi 44/40 that mics out at 0.428.  I have settles on a 0.428 bullet in the 44/40 smokeless rounds, just because.  I still will use 0.427 bullets in any BP shooting, I can do outside in the 44/40's.  The 44 Series -- Spec, Russian and Colt smokeless rounds will be 0.430, depending on molds used.

Good luck.
BRS

Quote from: Coffinmaker on November 05, 2025, 08:16:51 AM...It depends (no not the depends inna plastic package).  Way back inna Wabac (Thank you Sherman & Perfesser), prior to the C45S be available, I made thousands, cutting down 45 Colt and 45 Schofield.  the Schofield cases were my own experiments paralleling AJ with the C45S.  Those that say the 45 Colt case is thicker as you go down are correct.  However, it still works just fine.  Same same if you start with 45 Schofield cases.  Both cases get thicker as you cut them back to C45S length.  they will still load, crimp and shoot just fine.

Now about making the process easier.  There isn't "easier."  I personally used two methods.  I put together a case holder, pilot and cutter for my Lathe.  It worked quite well.  However, yule be standing there for hours to make a useful amount.  Next up, was my bench top case trimmer, with a cutter assembly for an electric drill motor.  I used a 14V cordless.  Same same, your gonna be standing there for a LONG time to make a useful number of cases.

Is it worth it??  In my opinion, NO.  Some lustrum ago, before the C45S was available commercially, sure, it was the only way to get 'em.  Today, the Cowboy 45 Special isn't all that expensive and in that light, the hours spent to make yer own just doesn't make sense unless you just have a ton of 45 Colt you don't know what to do with (still ain't worth it).  Plus, the Starline C45S cases have a case mouth of the correct thickness for crimping.  At this point in time, I consider making yer own to be a wast of time (unless you have absolutely nothing else to do).  Burma Shave

THIS ↑ ↑ ↑ time 2!

Same here (Garand fodder) I got factory Sellier & Bellot Garand Safe factory at a gun show a while back
So, I don't load for it.

I do wish I could find the Trail Boss article again.
I have 2.5 lbs. of the stuff and 1 unopened  9oz bottle. + a parcel used 9 oz'er

I need to shoot mine again too

Yep, just need the bigger screw, IIRC.

  HA! 

Yes They Will!!

  ladies and Gentlemen, Boys and Girls, Children of All Ages 

I did a captain Dumb dumb.  I am a Poster Kid for the 1871/72 Open Top.  The undisputed Swiss Army knife of single actions.  It is so so easy to fit additional barrels and cylinders to the base action and then shoot a bundle of different cartridges.  Most ALL the .38s, All the .44s and ALL the .45s, except I don't like 45 Colt nor 45 ACP in an Open Top.  However, I recently built myself a new Chameleon.  I didn't pay attention to my own mantra, and just put the 44s together.  HOWEVER:

My .44 Barrels arrived Roll Marked "44-40."  I thought, "How weird" 'cause neither Colt nor Uberti ever chambered the Open Top in 44-40.  Just kept on trucking, cut the barrels down to the Ejectors and called it wunderbar.  EXCEPT!!:

First match out of the gate, I noticed recoil al little heavy and at cleaning time had a bunch of fouling at the barrel breach and cylinder face that was a strange colour.  Oh well, cleaned 'em and put away.  Then a conversation I was having got me to thinking about bullets for the .44s as my favorite bullet is/was "out of stock."  Instead of .430 bullets I started thinking about .428s as they are in stock.  So I pulled out the 44 Barrel/Cylinder for the Open Top and started measuring and slugging.  Cylinder throats are a correct .430.  The Barrels are a different matter entirely.  The barrels really ARE 44-40.  The bore is .427.  When I tried the same same hard case .430 bullet I tested the cylinder with, as the bullet encountered the rifling, it STOPPED DEAD.  Wouldn't budge.  Had to flip the Barrel inna vise and drive it back out from the front.  So the gist of the story is, my 44-40 Open Top barrels really are .427 and require .4275 or .428 bullets.  In some applications, Uberti ain't paying attention to the usual "industry standard" of ALL .44s are .429 bore.  Luckily, both of my 44 Trappers are 44 Special and "should" be 429.  I will however, be slugging them soon as I can source a couple of soft bullets.  Hard Cast are a little too hard.  Burma Shave.

Oh, most forgot.  When shooting the 44 Open Top, All that weird fouling was caused by the oversized bullet trying to act as a bore obstruction.  Just glad I didn't have much bigger and more violent problems.  Could have been real nasty fer sure!!

Morning y'all.
Coffee and tea are hot.

Watching church service from my couch.

Congrats, Pony Express. Our season starts on Saturday.

'Tis 39 and sunny. High of 44 and sunny.

Slim

Thank you Major for posting Harris's 13 grain Red Dot article follow up. The original article had to be published in the Rifleman back in the 90's. I got so I started shooting more of the 13.0 Red Dot loads than I did in my stable of MILSURP's than using high velocity jacketed bullet loads. Less beating and still have the enjoyment of shooting the rifles. Never had a problem with bore leading.

 I still have the Harris AR magazine in the archives somewhere-probably the follow up article also, also the other magazine that was devoted to using lead bullets in a whole array of rifles. I'm a packrat for saving gun magazines. Have them in shop, wife kicked em out of the house years ago. Have AR back to the early 70's along with other major gun magazines with varying years. Have to look em up.

 Reading and posting in this thread has 'got me all riled up' to take out the Ol' military rifles and do some shooting. Have some ammo in 06 and 8mm loaded up in storage that needs to be fired, maybe do some more loadings, have around 3# of Red Dot cryin' to be shot. Only MILSURP's I've never used 'The Load' in are either of my M1 Grands as I figured there wasn't enough power generated by the load to work the action and a 30/40 Krag. The Krag came along after all of my work with the other rifles, just haven't got around to doing so with it but it is a 'been gonna' project.

BTW..
There is or was a similar article for TRAIL BOSS
complete with a graph for various 30cal. Milsurps.

I had it in file on my old laptop which went belly up. 
anyway, I can't seem to find it now on the internet.
There may be a link over on the Barricks Board.

When I began reduced loading for my Milsurps (my 1st one was French Berthier) I was rather fresh fish.
I did have some Red Dot, but Trail Boss was easily available.
I then also got a Krag and use Trail Boss exclusively,
Following suit for M1917 Eddystone, 03 Springfield, SMLE No. 1 Mk III*

The gist of the article was... Credit Pony Express

" While the website seems to be having problems, the gist of the article was, they used the same load(9gr) for several milsurp calibers in .30-8mm with all the same powder charge, with basically standard weight for the caliber bullets, with good results. So what you use for a Krag, can be used in .303, 7.62X54,30-06,7.62 Argentine, 8MM Mauser or Lebel, etc. I use 11.5 grains for most everything Military I load, except smaller ones like 6.5 Swede. Also, I just use 9gr in 30-30. Only one so far that didn't work was 8MM Mauser in a '98 Mauser with 225 gr cast, they keyholed. But the same load was great in a Commission rifle."

Indeed Sir    Posted here as a curtesy 

"The Load" is 13 Grains of Red Dot"

© 2014 - Ed Harris

Revised Sept. 27, 2007

My success in economizing by using up leftovers of misc. shotshell powder changed my approach to hand loading.  About 15 years ago I was given an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot from the estate of the late Vincent Marino,  a fellow gun club member who was an active trap and skeet shooter. I no longer reloaded shotshells, so asked myself, "what can I do with it?"

At the time my shooting was now mostly NRA-style high-power rifle, but using cast bullets in WWII militaries.  I was working at the time with a Winchester M1917 Enfield and a Smith-Corona M1903A3, both .30-'06s, and I also had a Long Branch No.4 MkII* in .303 and a Finnish M28/30 in 7.62x54R.  I needed several hundred rounds a week to practice offhand, reloading, and working the bolt in sitting and prone rapid, but didn't want to burn out my barrel or my wallet.  Powder used to be cheap, but then was $15/lb. (and is closer to $25 today! - or more), so cost is a factor in component choice. 

I used to ignore pistol or shotgun powders in reduced rifle loads for the usual reasons: the risk of accidental double-charges, fears of erratic ignition, and concerns with maintaining accuracy, and reduced utility with a low-power load.

Still, the caddy of Red Dot kept "looking at me" from the corner. Would it work? Looking at data in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual No. 1 and the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook suggested it would, so I tried it, much to my delight!

Red Dot is bulky compared to the usual rifle powders used in .30-'06-size cases. It occupies more powder space in typical charges than common "reduced load" rifle powders, such as #2400, IMR4227, IMR4198 or RL-7. The lower bulk density of Red Dot adequately addressed my safety concerns because it makes an accidental double charge far less likely.

After considerable experimentation, my friends and I found "The Load" of choice in most .30 and .303 calibers was 13 grains of Hercules Red Dot.  We found this a good starting point in any FULL SIZED rifle case of .30 cal. or larger. "The Load" has distinct advantages over more expensive alternatives, within certain limitations, which are:

1.      The case must be LARGER than the .30-40 Krag, and have a normal working pressure greater than 40,000 psi. The No. 4 Enfield in .303 Brit is OK, the 1896 Krag is not! 

2.      The rifle must be of MODERN (post 1898 design, suitable for smokeless powder, with a bore size of .30 cal. or larger.

3.      The bullet weight must be within the NORMAL range for the given cartridge.

4.      Inert fillers such as Dacron, kapok or are NOT RECOMMENDED! (Nor are they necessary).

Within these restrictions now engraved in stone, "The Load" works! The bullet may be either jacketed or cast. Gas checked cast bullets required in the .30 cals., otherwise you will get leading, but plain based ones work fine in the 8mm Mauser or larger.

"The Load" has shown complete success in the .303 British, 7.65 Argentine in the '98 actions (not the 1891 please), .308 Win., 7.62x54R Russian, .30-'06, 8x57 and .45-70 (strong-actioned rifles such as the 1886 Winchester or 1895 Marlin -- 12 grs. is maximum for 400 gr. bullets in the Trapdoor Springfield.

Since the article originally appeared I have heard from people who successfully used it in the 8mm Mauser, .35 Whelen, .375 H&H, .444 Marlin and .458 Winchester.

"The Load" fills 50% or more of a .308 Win or .30-'06 case. The risk of an accidental double charge is greatly reduced, because the blunder is immediately obvious if you visually check, powder fill on EVERY CASE, as you should whenever hand loading! A bulky powder measures more uniformly, because normal variation in the measured volume represents a smaller percentage of the charge weight.

Red Dot's granulation is somewhat less coarse than other flake powders of similar burning rate, such as 700-X, which aids metering. Its porous, uncoated flakes are easily ignited with standard primers. So-called "magnum" primers do no harm in cases larger than the .30-'06, but are neither necessary nor recommended in smaller ones.

I DO NOT recommend pistol primers in reduced rifle loads, because weak primers may cause erratic ignition, and their thinner cups can perforate more easily, causing gas leakage and risk of personal injury!

The velocities obtained with 13 grs. of Red Dot appear mild, but "The Load" is no pipsqueak! In a case like the .308 or .30-'06, you get (from a 24" sporter barrel) about 1450 f.p.s. with a 200- gr. cast bullet, 1500 with a 170-gr., or 1600 with a 150-gr. cast load.

"The Load" is fully comparable to "yesterday's deer rifle", the .32-40, and provides good expansion of cheap, soft alloys (10-13 BHN) at woods ranges.  Jacketed bullet velocities with "The Load" are about 120-150 f.p.s. less than a lubricated lead bullet of the same weight.  Longer-barreled military rifles pick up a few feet per second. My preferred alloy in the .30 cals. is a mixture of 5 lbs. of backstop scrap to 1 lb. of salvaged linotype. Wheelweights also work well, as do soft "Scheutzen" alloys such as 1:20 tin/lead in medium bores over .30 cal. and larger. "The Load" drives soft-cast .30-cal. to 8 mm bullets fast enough to get a nice mushroom, without fragmenting.

These cast loads out-penetrate factory .30-30 soft points, and kill medium game up to 150 lbs. well at short ranges up to 100 yards, when placed accurately. In medium and large bores like the .375 H&H or .45-70, "The Load" gives typical black powder ballistics for the bore. A 255-265 gr. cast bullet in the .375 H&H approximates the .38-55 at 1330 f.p.s. Soft 300- 405-gr. cast bullets are pushed at 1300-1350 f.p.s. from a 22" barrel .45-70, sporter are very effective on deer at woods ranges. Cast bullets over .35 cal. do not have to expand appreciably to work well on game if blunt and heavy for their caliber.

The Load" works equally well with jacketed bullets, and is a good way to shoot up those old pulled military ball bullets you have lying around. Jacketed bullets give somewhat lower velocities than with cast lead, due to less effective obturation and greater friction in the bore. I have use pulled GI .30 caliber Ball, and Match bullets with "The Load" for cheap 200-yd. NMC bolt gun practice. Accuracy is equal to arsenal loads, but I use my 600-yard sight dope at 200 yards. I expect 5-6" ten-shot, iron-sight groups at 200 yards using M2 or M80 pulled bullets and about 3-4" for the M72 or M118 Match bullets. I use these mostly in bolt-action rifles, but they can be single-loaded for offhand or slow-fire practice in the Garand as well.

These .30 cal. pulls shoot fine in the .303 British or 7.62x54 Russian, despite their being a bit small, because the fast-burning Red Dot upsets them into the deeper grooves. The 173-gr. Match .30 cal. boat tail bullets may not shoot as well at these low velocities as lighter flat bases in the 12" twist .308 Win. barrels, but they do quite well in ten- inch twist barrels such as in the '06, 7.62 Russian, .303 British and 7.65 Argentine.

The longer bore time of these 1400 f.p.s. (typical 170-180-gr. jacketed load velocity) practice loads makes errors in follow- through apparent, a great practice and training aid. The light recoil and lower report of these loads helps transition Junior tyro shooters from the .22 rimfire to the service rifle without being intimidated by the noise and recoil.

Zeroing is no problem in the M1 or M14, because "The Load" shoots into the ten-ring of the reduced SR target at 200 yards from your M1 or M14 rifle at using your normal 600 yard sight dope! The somewhat greater wind deflection blows you into the "8" ring at 200 yards with the same conditions you would expect to do so at 600 yards with M118 Match ammunition. This provides your Junior shooters some useful wind-doping practice.

The economy of a lighter charge is obvious. A full power .30-'06 load using 50 grs. of an IMR powder like 4064 today in 2007 costs 15 cents a pop, just for powder, at 140 rounds per pound (if you are lucky enough to still find new powder at $21/lb.) By  substituting 13 grs. of Red Dot you get 538 rounds per pound at a realistic cost of 4-1/2 cents assuming you pay $25 per pound at retail.  Greater savings are possible if you get the best price and buy powder by the caddy.  It is still possible to get an 8 lb. caddy of Red Dot for around $100 if you shop around.  Or just become an old vulture and hang around waiting for an old trap shooter to die and do his widow a favor!

Velocity and point of impact of "The Load" is not noticeably affected by varying powder position in the case. I shoot them either slow fire, or clip-fed and flipped through rapid-fire in the bolt gun with equal accuracy. Red Dot is very clean burning and is economical both on the basis of its lower charge weight, and its lower basic cost per pound compared to other "rifle" powders. If you substitute a stiffly jacketed 110-gr. .30 Carbine soft point bullet, which is designed for somewhat higher velocities than imparted by "The Load", you have a non-destructive "coup de grâce", small game or wild turkey load which shoots close to your deer rifle's normal zero, but at 25 yards!

Best of all, using a shotshell powder I already have reduces the kinds of powder I keep and eliminates the need for a special "reduced load" powder. This approach is ideal for rifle shooters who are also shotgunners, since almost everybody who reloads for 12-ga. probably has a keg of Red Dot already!

I now realize it is foolish to use heavier charges of more expensive powder for routine practice, varmint or small game loads in my center-fire rifles. I seldom shoot at over 200 yards, and don't enjoy wearing out expensive target barrels unnecessarily. Since I already have good sight dope and need to work more on technique and save my remaining barrel accuracy life for matches.

I am glad I found the way to get a lot more shooting for the dollar. Economical powder choice IS possible, and my reloading has become less complicated and more enjoyable simple since I realized I could do most of my rifle shooting with 13 grains of Red Dot!

Last edited on Thu Sep 27th, 2007 11:20 am by Ed Harris