Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => 1860 Henry => Topic started by: Tuolumne Lawman on June 26, 2020, 11:57:02 PM
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Just got notified by my local gunshop that Cimarron shipped me an 1866 Carbine in .44-40. Starting Commiefornia 10 day jail on it. When asked a couple months ago what I would like to do my next Cowboy Chronicle article on, I said "How about an 1866 saddle ring carbine in .44 WCF. Low and behold, it has arrived!
In the last 25 years, I have had a couple 1866 24" rifles in a couple calibers, and a 20" short rifle or two. A light, handy 1866 carbine, however, has eluded me until now. Unfortunately, I wish it was going to be the price they were 20 years ago, rather than the inflated north of $1,000 price they get now! It will be interesting to compare it against my HRA 1860 Henry 44-40. It is dead accurate, and I always shoot clean, including clay pigeons on the 25 yard berm....
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Greetings!
Keep us posted on that!
M.T.Marfield
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:) Hey TL ;)
Really really curious if you actually get one with Saddle Ring. Some recent production may prevent installing the Staple.
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:) Hey TL ;)
Really really curious if you actually get one with Saddle Ring. Some recent production may prevent installing the Staple.
Looking at a Cimarron inventory list, every caliber of 19" '66 is supposed to have the saddle ring. Guess we'll find out.
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I think I really got interested in an 1866 Carbine when I found an 1866 receiver in an antique shop in a ghost town south of Bodie, CA. It had rusted remains of barrel on it. Charley Gullet, who use to be on this forum back in the day had me pick it up for him, and hew actually restored it to .44 Henry centerfire over the period of a couple years. Then when I saw the nephew in Broken Trail handing out justice to the bad guys with his 66 carbine, it made me put a 66 carbine on my short list...
Realistically, if I had been a Henry toting lawman in the 1860s and 1870s, at some point I would have switched to a 1866 carbine for horseback use. For a static position, the Henry 16 shooter would rock, but a horseman needs a handier rifle.
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Oh My! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Picked it up today. It does have the staple and saddle ring, BTW.
Compared to my 1860 Henry, it is so light and handy, I can see why they were still made even after the 1873 was introduced. Action is smooth for a Uberti, BUT has a fairly heavy trigger. I really need to work on that after I do the "factory stock" condition review for the article.
Really glad I waited and got it in 44 WCF, instead of .45 Colt. It will handle Trple Seven loads that replicate the original .44 WCF round (1350 fps for 200 grain bullet...) which killed its share of game.
Working on installing a door and building a wall today, so will take some picks tomorrow. I'll even get a chance to use it at the local CAS match on Saturday!
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Will await photos!
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Here she is with my engraved Kirst 1860 Saber River conversion.
(https://i.imgur.com/n7764iL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/MWfmJYX.jpg)
This thing is so much lighter, handier, and shorter than the venerable 1860 Henry. I can see why it was so wildly popular with cowboys, lawman, bandits, ranchers, and Native Americans on the Frontier. Either use a leather thong around the saddle horn, or quickly remove from a saddle scabbard, it would be much easier to deploy than the Henry. Maybe the Henry would have an edge for defending the farm or homestead, but if you had to tote it or use it on horseback, the 1866 Carbine would be the king.
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:D SWEET!! ;)
Brass rifles ROCK ;D
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Had a chance to use it at the local SASS match yesterday. Two minor issues: The trigger pull was over 9 pounds, and it printed a little low at 25 yards, and three inches right.
The sight is an easy fix: I drifted the rear sight left and got it centered between stages, and used a high dead on hold until I can file the sight. That got it on target.
While 9 pounds would not matter at traditional, modern day SASS matches with 24"x24" targets at 10 yards, but our club shoots clay pigeons and pop bottles on the 25 yard berm for rifle targets! (a local anti-gun bunny but kisser group got a court order to stop us from shooting steel targets. because we were poisoning the world!). The 9+ pound trigger made it difficult to make clean hits on small targets at range.
After the match, I took it home and fixed the heavy trigger pull. Fortunately the Uberti 1866 and 1860 Henry rifles are very easy to lighten the trigger pull. With the weapon empty and action open, turn the rifle upside down and remove the exterior trigger spring screw and spring. The trigger moves freely, so push out the trigger retaining pin, and remove the trigger. On this sample, the top “sear” end of the trigger was very pointed, causing it to engage the sear notch in the hammer too deeply, making the trigger pull heavier than necessary, IMHO. I stoned the sear end of the trigger with a fine knife sharpening wet stone, and ever so slightly flattened the deep point. After several tries, the trigger pull was reduced to about 4 pounds and much smoother. DO NOT HURRY and do not take off too much.
I started a draft of the CC article, and included the info about the heavy trigger pull and how to fix it in the draft.
Next I need to see how it does on paper sand trim the front sight to bring POI up to 2" above POA at 25 yards.
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I have to asked then, having altered the gun ( to the betterment none the less ) you can't return it can You ?
Would you keeping it ? or selling it down the line.... ???
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My wife ceremoniously told me this is a keeper. (She thinks it is almost as pre pretty as the 1860 HRA Henry!) We have had a lot of positive changes in our life in the last 6 months, and she has given me an injunction that the only reason I can sell a gun is to buy a better one... Love my Wife!!!!
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My wife ceremoniously told me this is a keeper. (She thinks it is almost as pre pretty as the 1860 HRA Henry!) We have had a lot of positive changes in our life in the last 6 months, and she has given me an injunction that the only reason I can sell a gun is to buy a better one... Love my Wife!!!!
BOTH are keepers !
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Took the 1866 to the range to shoot paper, to see where it was shooting. Like the other member posted on this forum, it is shooting 8" low at 25 yards. The big problem was that it is shooting almost the same amount to the right! I checked and found the front barrel band/sight was loose. The screw is either stripped or snapped, and spins freely. I contacted Chip at Cimarron about a warranty return.
In over 20 years of evaluations for the Chronicle, I have never gotten a bad gun from Cimarron. I'll give them a Mulligan on this one, as long as they replace it.
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Chip at Cimarron. is sending me a new band/sight and screw. That should fix it. Now I need to trim the front sight 1/10" to 1/8" to bring it up. Actually only 6 inches below POA at 25 yards.
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I'm curious how you made the calculations for how much material to take off the front sight. If I only need to remove 1/10 to 1/8" of material that would be awesome. I thought it would be considerably more. My rifle is shooting about 7" low at 25yds. Although I'm taking multiple loads to the range soon to verify before doing any mods.
Btw. It could just be the picture but your front sight looks like it may be a tad bit shorter than mine.
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25 yards is 900 inches. Say 16" between front sight and rear sight, so divide 900 by 16, so 56. 56 times 1/8 is 7". 1/8" off the sight will raise POI 7 inches at 25 yards. I'll start with about 2/3 that, and work up. I was aiming at the bottom of the bullseye, and hitting about 6 inches low (I said 8, but it was 8 from the center of the bull, not the bottom where I was aiming.
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What I'm hearing is that you are using a 6 o'clock hold whereas I am using dead on aim. I will use the formula and see what I come up with. Thank you.
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Start with half, and bring the file to the range.
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Got the new sight and mounted it (it was the old sight that was stripped, not the screw). It is 16.5" from front sight to rear sight. Lopped off about 1/10" the top of the front of the front sight. Even though it widened the front sight some, the rear notch is still plenty wide for a good sight picture. That much should bring it up between 5.5" and 6.0" at 25 yards about 6 inches. We will see when I go to the range again. I'll take a flat file with me, and trim it down some more if I need to.
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UPDATE, UPDATE! Installed the new front sight, (which I trimmed down about 1/10"+) and went back to the range. Drifted the rear sight slightly left of center (about 1/32"), and dialed it in. Dead nuts on! POI is about 1.5" above POA at 25 yards. I then took out clay pigeons on the 25 yard berm, and even a clay pigeon on the 100 yard berm. Nice shooter.
Shot my 7.0 grain Trail Boss hand loads (200 grain Bear Creek moly coated bullet), some Black Hills and HSM .44-40 factory. Black Hills gave me 1 1/2" group at 25 yards, where HSM factory gave me slightly better at 1 1/4".
My trail Boss loads gave me 1 3/4" groups, but that is expected, as the maximum charges of Trail Boss are not as accurate. I did six shots rapid fire from a rest at a 2.5" group.
All in all, it was a great day. I'm glad my wife insisted I pay for it now and keep it, and not wait until the 6 month trial is up. It will alternate with my HRA 1860 Henry .44-40 as a main match rifle.
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Henry Repeating Arms claims their brass alloy used in the New Original Henry has the same tensile strength as steel. My manuals put 9.0 grains of Unique as being the max load for toggle link rifles. I am inclined to load some up for my Henry and my 1866. I have used it before in an original (post 1900) 1873, and it was incredibly accurate.
The CUP/PSI for it is well below the max for class one 44-40s (toggle link). A charge of 8.0 grains Unique gives 1130 fps from a New Original Henry (which duplicates the original 44 Henry) per American Rifleman article, and MD Smith and several others list 9.0 as max, but safe, for toggle link. Alliant, though says 8.6 is max, though their loads are always lighter than the manuals.
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Time for a questionable question, would that 8.0 grains of unique be fine for a revolver?
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John Taffin loads 8.0 of Unique. One of his favorite loads...
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Seems like it'll be fun for carry
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When Cimarron first came out with their P frame Thunderer, a DA Investigator I knew carried a 44-40 Thunderer with a 3.5" barrel in a pancake holster. Neat carry gun.... In the late 1970s, I also knew a Deputy in Washington state that carried a .455 top break Webley as a duty revolver.
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I'll try the 1866 again at the local CAS match Saturday. I will say, a 66 carbine is a lot handier than a Henry to tote around. 2 pounds less is a lot! I can see why the 1866 carbines were so popular in the West.
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Now only if they made the open tops in. 44-40
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Now only if they made the open tops in. 44-40
Yep, I would have a pair! You can get Uberti 58 Remington conversions in 44-40
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Remingtons are nice. But a open top would be better
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Greetings, TL!
Could You please give us some details about your Henry / 1866 handloads, specifically, your bullets: weight, diameter, lube, commercial or home-cast... All that stuff. As an alternative to GOEX FFFg, I've got Unique and Trail Boss to experiment with.
Ages ago, I acquired a box of Laser-Cast .427"-200gr bullets for 75% off retail; they measure out to 20 BHN on my LBT Tester. I was planning to add a few to my Range Scrap when I cast bullets, but on a lark, decided to seat a couple of boxes over 7.0gr Unique. I will test them soon...
Thanks Mucho!
MTM
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Just re-read this thread as I am picking up a 24" '66 Monday. Sure is a pretty one!
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Greetings, TL!
Could You please give us some details about your Henry / 1866 handloads, specifically, your bullets: weight, diameter, lube, commercial or home-cast... All that stuff. As an alternative to GOEX FFFg, I've got Unique and Trail Boss to experiment with.
Ages ago, I acquired a box of Laser-Cast .427"-200gr bullets for 75% off retail; they measure out to 20 BHN on my LBT Tester. I was planning to add a few to my Range Scrap when I cast bullets, but on a lark, decided to seat a couple of boxes over 7.0gr Unique. I will test them soon...
Thanks Mucho!
MTM
I use Bear Creek Moly coated 200 RNFP or Missouri Bullet Co, 200 grain RNFP interchangeably. Both I use .428" diameter. Primer are WLP Winchester Large Pistol. The brass is mostly Starline or Black Hills. Maybe a few Winchester or Remington range pick up hulls, too.
My rifle load is 7.0 grains of Trail Boss, for about 1140 fps from the 24" barreled Henry. Not sure of velocity from the 1866. 6.0 grains is actually a little more accurate, but I wanted to duplicate the .44 Henry ballistics. I have also used 7.0 grains of Unique, which runs about the same as the Trail Boss.
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Update! Local matches begin again next week. Think I will use the 1866 and my 1851 Navy Kirst converted. Need to warm up with the 1866, as I will use it as my rifle in Wild Bunch matches.
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I can't tell if that is spam or perhaps a language barrier?
Edit: the subject of this post , was in reference to a previous post which was deleted.
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I myself was puzzled ...I'm concerned about the .com he posted
I am Leary of posted unknown links ( i have altered it so it will not function )
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I'm confused????? ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
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What I'm hearing is that you are using a 6 o'clock hold whereas I am using dead on aim. I will use the formula and see what I come up with. Thank you.
6 O'clock easier to maintain consistent point of aim than center hold unless eyes are good enough to see the X in center of bull.
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Oh boy, is that the case with this child. I've gotten to the point where I have a little gap between the front sight and the target just to keep the front sight in focus. Reminds me of an old joke ;)
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My wife’s uncle Tommy who shot highpower matches at Camp Perry explained it to me [I was a newbe then] as ‘a pumpkin on a post’ of course at 1000 yds that a very very small pumpkin. A pea on a post?
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What I'm hearing is that you are using a 6 o'clock hold whereas I am using dead on aim. I will use the formula and see what I come up with. Thank you.
6 O'clock hold gives a more precise aiming point for Iron sights. I always use that hold to zero then switch to center hold for shooting SASS targets generally want my guns to shoot to point of aim vs getting them to hit center of bull while holding at 6 o'clock. Having said that when I shoot high power matches I do zero and adjust sights to hit center of bull with a 6 o'clock hold as the 6 hold is a more precise aiming point.
When I qualified for my texas concealed carry permit on needed to actually shoot a target at various ranges. A good friend who was an instructor for CCW suggested shooting the first round at the target then aim for that shots hole for all subsequent rounds again for a more precise aiming point. This assumes you shot a good shot with first round and hit target where you wanted.
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Henry Repeating Arms claims their brass alloy used in the New Original Henry has the same tensile strength as steel.
Sorry for the late ( by many moons) reply...
I did in fact investigate the alloy used by the Henry Repeating Arms Co, and I can verify that it is
a very fine quality Gun Bronze with tensile strength ( and other delightful properties) equal to or exceeding that of
commonly used gun steels.! It will stand up to any loads that a steel toggle link can handle.
Unlike our Italian replicas, which only use common red brass :-(
yhs
prof mumbles