Special Interests - Groups & Societies > The Winchester Model 1873

45 Colt loads and Miroku Winchester 1873

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BikerTom:
I'm contemplating buying a new-in-the-box Miroku manufactured Winchester model 1873 in 45 Colt.  I'm not interested in originality.  I just have stumbled upon a MW with the features I like.  CCH.  Octagon 16 inch barrel.  45 Colt.  Highly figured wood.

The reason I'm choosing 45 LC is because of the straight wall case which allows reloading on a progressive, etc.  Also, I already have the cases, dies, powder, primers, etc.  The bullets will be either plated SWC or jacketed hollow points.

Concerning the use, it will probably make a few trips a year to the range to punch paper or ring gongs.  Otherwise, it'll be a safe queen. 

Researching the 1873 toggle link action, I've read and have been given numerous caveats.  Mostly concerning 1) the fragility of the action and 2) blowback into the receiver (from light loads fabricated to accommodate the fragile action).

Concerning the allowable pressures for the 1873, in a similarly themed thread on The High Road, the late RCModel said, "SAAMI spec for 45 Colt is 14,000 PSI. That is the only pressure suitable for use in any rifle with a toggle-link action."   

I'm limiting the reloads to one of two powders: Hodgdon Titegroup and Winchester 231.  Dunno which, yet.  Yes, I know there are better powders, but given the current market, I'll stick to what I have. 

But the Hodgdon website shows, for example, the starting load for a 300 grain bullet is 5.2 grains = 11,300 CUP.  Maximum load is 5.8 grains = 12,900 CUP. 

My question is, based upon RC's post (that 14,000 PSI is suitable for a toggle link action), then the above loads for the Titegroup data should pose no problem? 

(However, given the advanced metallurgy available today, along with Miroku's computer enhanced fitment of parts, surely their 1873s are stronger than the original.)

That's question #1.

Question #2 has to do with complaints I've read about debris/soot blowback into the action because the cartridge case didn't "seal" in the chamber upon firing.  I think it was suggested that this is especially acute with 45 Colt cases with thick walls like, Starline.  (My cases are Winchester.)

Again, I'm inquiring solely about 45 Colt.  And my loads will be about in the middle of "starting" and "maximum."  I already know that the 44-40 cartridge produces no such phenomenon, but what about the 45 Colt?  Is that an issue with modern smokeless powders? 

I'm assuming the more pressure in the cartridge, the better the seal. 

Finally, question #3.  If I complete the purchase, I'll likely start with plated SWC bullets.  I'll use those until I develop a familiarity with the rifle.  I already have several lever rifles with more powerful cartridges, and a couple have tube mags, and I'm familiar with the caveats concerning pointed bullets.

But in the 1873, SWCs should pose no problem? 

Thanks for your consideration.

Coffinmaker:

 :)  Biker Tom   ;)

Well, you have some good information as well as some "Old Wives Tales."  The toggle Link action, especially in current manufacture is a LOT stronger than some would have you believe.  It is suitable for ammunition all the way up to SAAMI spec ammunition.  I would not, however, recommend 300Gr bullets.  There is no valid reason to run bullets that heavy.  Also, toggle Link rifles DO NOT play well with Semi-Wadcutter bullets.  A Toggle Link rifle WILL jam alot with SWC.

NEXT UP:  45 Colt cartridges WILL NOT seal the chamber is OEM form.  the brass is simply too thick, no matter the manufacture.  You will not however, get much blow-By back into the action.  The Blow-By is concentrated at the front of the mortice for the Carrier Block and the front of the Carrier Block.  That Blow-By will create fouling over time that will cause the Carrier Block to jam.  Heavy loads will only mitigate the Blow-By a small amount.  The only solution to Blow-By in a 45 Cut rifle is to anneal the case mouth to soften it to expand.

You mention 45 ACP??  You cannot get an OEM rifle from anybody chambered and altered to shoot 45 ACP.

Stay Safe Out There

PS:  YES, The Miroku replica of the 1873 is stronger than an original.

BikerTom:

--- Quote from: Coffinmaker on March 23, 2021, 10:45:46 AM ---You mention 45 ACP??  You cannot get an OEM rifle from anybody chambered and altered to shoot 45 ACP.

--- End quote ---

Oops.  Sorry.  Brain freeze.  Corrected.  I meant 45 Long Colt.  Or 45 LC.

But, what is this? 
--- Quote ---in a 45 Cut rifle
--- End quote ---

And, no SWC or 300 grain bullets.  200 grain?  180 grain?  Is there an optimum weight?   How about a 200 grain HP? 

Thanks for the response.   

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DeaconKC:
I took Coffinmaker's advice when I started loading 45 Colt in my 1866 Yellowboy. Same basic toggle action. I am using 8.0 grains of Unique under a 230 grain cast lead RNFP and have not annealed my cases. I DO get a good bit of fouling in the action, so I clean the gun after every match, most matches seeing about 50-60 rounds through the rifle. It would probably run a good deal more, but I just clean all my guns after a match.
And welcome to the place!

BikerTom:

--- Quote from: DeaconKC on March 23, 2021, 11:57:09 AM ---I took Coffinmaker's advice when I started loading 45 Colt in my 1866 Yellowboy. Same basic toggle action. I am using 8.0 grains of Unique under a 230 grain cast lead RNFP and have not annealed my cases. I DO get a good bit of fouling in the action, so I clean the gun after every match, most matches seeing about 50-60 rounds through the rifle. It would probably run a good deal more, but I just clean all my guns after a match.
And welcome to the place!

--- End quote ---

Thank you.  230 grain bullets.  Is that optimum for the 1873?  Because after his post I'm shopping for 200 grain flat point. 

Also, Unique is a fairly dirty powder anyway.  But I might take his advice and anneal the cases.  Maybe I'll try it both ways for comparison's sake.

When you clean the gun after matches, is it simply a matter of pulling off the side plates and blowing compressed air, dousing with Hoppes, etc? 

Or do you have to take the toggle link assembly apart?

Thanks again.

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