How powerful is .44-40 in a rifle? Is it obsolete? (No)

[Doug.38PR]

The .44-40 and .30 Carbine  are two of the most underrated and even laughed at cartridges.   Yet at one time they were both very popular among firearms users.  With the advent of ARs and Magnum calibers, most peoppe don’t even know these cartridges or the guns that shoot them even exist.

But, taken for what they are, they are actually excellent rounds that are still quite effective.  The .30 Carbine is basically a .357 Magnum shot out of a rifle with a fast 110 gr ball bullet.  More powerful than submachine guns and more compact than a full rifle or even modern AR/M4 carbine

The .44-40 lever action carbine is basically shooting the power of  a .44 Magnum handgun with the accuracy and capacity of a lever action rifle with very little recoil.   Such rounds have put down quite a few deer over the last century and a half.  More than any other game round save the .30-30, so we are told.   

In terms of power, these rounds make noticable dents in plate targets designed to withstand up to .44 Magnum handguns.  The .30 Carbine almost stretches right through.

And the beauty of it is, the recoil on both of these is less than the AR15 out of guns that are far more compact

[Trailrider]

There is no question that the .44-40 can be loaded hotter than most current factory ammo...IF the rifle or pistol is strong enough. The Winchester M1892 and its modern counterparts (Rossi, Miroku) and the Old Model Ruger Vaqueros fall in this category. That is NOT to say it is the equal of the .44 Magnum at the top end.  However, the .44-40 has accounted for a lot of game, and has served as a self-defense round, as well.  As a hunting load, I would restrict both the .44-40 and .44 Magnum to game under 150-200 yds, with proper bullet placement.  For Cowboy Action Shooting, I load both cartridges to 950 ft/sec (NOT the same powder charges!) from a 7-1/2" barrel OM Ruger.  With a 213 gr. lead bullet, the .44 Magnum actually requires LESS powder to reach the same velocities due to the smaller case capacity of the magnum brass! I've seen the Maggie give the coup de gras to a Shiras moose, which had been downed but not out from a .300 Weatherby Magnum rifle!

I would certainly take any of the .44's over the .30 Carbine. Some Korean War veteran Marines I've talked to over the years stated, that while the Carbine could certainly kill, when compared to the .30-06, against winter-clothed enemy, it definitely lacked stopping power! The Marines got rid of the M-1 and M-2 Carbines after Korea due to unreliability in ultra-cold weather. Your mileage may vary, of course.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

The .44-40 and .30 Carbine  are two of the most underrated and even laughed at cartridges.   Yet at one time they were both very popular among firearms users.  With the advent of ARs and Magnum calibers, most peoppe don’t even know these cartridges or the guns that shoot them even exist.

But, taken for what they are, they are actually excellent rounds that are still quite effective.  The .30 Carbine is basically a .357 Magnum shot out of a rifle with a fast 110 gr ball bullet.  More powerful than submachine guns and more compact than a full rifle or even modern AR/M4 carbine

The .44-40 lever action carbine is basically shooting the power of  a .44 Magnum handgun with the accuracy and capacity of a lever action rifle with very little recoil.   Such rounds have put down quite a few deer over the last century and a half.  More than any other game round save the .30-30, so we are told.   

In terms of power, these rounds make noticable dents in plate targets designed to withstand up to .44 Magnum handguns.  The .30 Carbine almost stretches right through.

And the beauty of it is, the recoil on both of these is less than the AR15 out of guns that are far more compact

  Pretty much spot-on. The 30 Carbine and the 32-20 are quite similar when the latter is loaded pst blackpowder ballistics. And yes the 44-40 from a rifle is quite similar to a .44 Magnum from a revolver. Yes, the 44-40 can be loaded to be more powerful, but for most of us there's really no need. Since I switched over a few years ago.to revolvers for hunting, I've found that more power really isn't necessary. In my experience .44 and .45 caliber bullets striking game at 900-950 fps tend to "make the trip" and whistle on across the pasture for parts unknown, so.what's the point in heavier loads?

  Cartridges such as those mentioned never really needed more power, rather they needed better bullets. The pointy bullets originally loaded in the 30 Carbine, 44-40, 45 Colt et al, don't do much in flesh. Bullets with nice wide Flat points do better.

   Elme Keith's SIXGUNS is a great read on this subject as he had vast experience shooting animals with every caliber imaginable

  CHT

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[scrubby2009]

Are we going to discuss the present-day tactical usefulness of the old rounds? Or just as they relate to the overlooked tools originally designed for them? I'd happily trust my '73 in any common game or predators encountered in the Sierras where I live, and for a tactical choice, it seems perfectly fine. 12+1 of 1000 to 1100fps 200gr projectiles that can be dumped in a few seconds, an action/magazine that can be very quickly "topped up" in a prolonged debate, and as it's been pointed out, RNFP bullets (in soft lead) have pretty decent stopping/deforming characteristics. I couldn't speak to any autoloading/detachable mag type weapons or the calibers associated with them.

[David Battersby]

 I shoot a lot of Lever Action Silhouette with a Uberti 1873 in 44WCF.  Using black powder most of the time.  Using standard pressure smokeless and black powder it does quite well.    I was told by a few fellow shooters when I started that the 44WCF was marginal at best and I would never knock down the 200 meter rams.  Hogwash!!
 I do occasionally "ding" a 200 meter ram. Usually if a ram doesn't fall it is because of the hit on the edge of the target with less than half of a bullet. (a rare talent I have developed ) Yes there are times when a good hit on a 200 meter ram fails to knock it over. The same is also true for folks using 35 Remington, 38-55 , 30-30 and yes even 45-70.   So I don't feel under gunned.
 Then there was the day at a big competition when two shooters were dinging 200 meter rams with a 30-30 loaded with heavy bullets and a case full of Varget.  My 44WCF was knocking over those same rams with every hit.  Again, soft lead bullets and Swiss 2F.
 How powerful is the 44WCF (44-40)?   For me impressively powerful.

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

I shoot a lot of Lever Action Silhouette with a Uberti 1873 in 44WCF.  Using black powder most of the time.  Using standard pressure smokeless and black powder it does quite well.    I was told by a few fellow shooters when I started that the 44WCF was marginal at best and I would never knock down the 200 meter rams.  Hogwash!!
 I do occasionally "ding" a 200 meter ram. Usually if a ram doesn't fall it is because of the hit on the edge of the target with less than half of a bullet. (a rare talent I have developed ) Yes there are times when a good hit on a 200 meter ram fails to knock it over. The same is also true for folks using 35 Remington, 38-55 , 30-30 and yes even 45-70.   So I don't feel under gunned.
 Then there was the day at a big competition when two shooters were dinging 200 meter rams with a 30-30 loaded with heavy bullets and a case full of Varget.  My 44WCF was knocking over those same rams with every hit.  Again, soft lead bullets and Swiss 2F.
 How powerful is the 44WCF (44-40)?   For me impressively powerful.

   I've never shot steel rams, so much of what I say can be considered....well..."communicating from my rectal orifice".

  David do you know the velocity of your load?

  In my 1866 Sporting Rifle I shoot a compressed charge of Swiss 3Fg under this 220 gr. cast FP-

 

  MV is right at 1300 fps. I've shot it out to a little over 300 yds. and was surprised at the accuracy.

  CHT

 

[Coffinmaker]

While I don't have photographs or any drawings, I do have an educated opinion. 

Some Lustrum ago when I was still casting bullets AND hunting game ...... I found the perfect (MY Opine) .45 game bullet.  A 265Gr Keith Type Semi Wad Cutter.  I never had anything I hit with it ... get back up.  Ever.  Also superbly accurate.

Since the original Subject line was "How Powerful ... etc" yet began with a declaration rather than actual questions, I can also further Opine ...... at the effective ranges the cartridge (44-40) was designed for .. "ENOUGH"

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

While I don't have photographs or any drawings, I do have an educated opinion. 

Some Lustrum ago when I was still casting bullets AND hunting game ...... I found the perfect (MY Opine) .45 game bullet.  A 265Gr Keith Type Semi Wad Cutter.  I never had anything I hit with it ... get back up.  Ever.  Also superbly accurate.

Since the original Subject line was "How Powerful ... etc" yet began with a declaration rather than actual questions, I can also further Opine ...... at the effective ranges the cartridge (44-40) was designed for .. "ENOUGH"

  I completely concur with Coffinmaker and have eaten a few hundred pounds of venison felled by .44 caliber SWC's at relatively sedate velocities. The problem with them in this caliber is it's difficult to make them work in the length-challenged actions of '66's and '73's.

  I've often wondered if large flat nose knock steel over more readily than bullets with the small, almost pointy bullets that were originally loaded in the 44-40.

 CHT

[David Battersby]

   

  David do you know the velocity of your load?

  CHT  Cast in 30-1 alloy my Lyman 427098 copy from Accurate molds is about 215 grains in weight.  #6.5 grains of Swiss 2F launch it right at 1300fps like your load.    The same boolit with NRA 50/50 lube and a hefty charge of Reloader 7 put the muzzle velocity up to 1360fps.  Not a lot of difference.  The Swiss load is more accurate but some times on a humid, misty still day shooting black powder is not a good idea. The smoke just hangs, and hangs, and hangs.......
  You don't need to know anything about the 200 meter steel rams. I was just giving my first hand experience and was relating to other cartridges known to be more powerful .    Hehehe.
  I can only guess that in part the soft bullets have a long dwell time on the target. At the "sedate" velocity they don't disintegrate but expand and drive from stem to stern.   
  On a side note I worked up a load with a card wad filler and 25 grains of Swiss 1.5F . It is not as accurate as the load listed above beyond 100 meters, but.....   When the closest targets (chickens) would stick into the backstop like a tomahawk thrown by the Jolly Green Giant or "fly" over the 40 meter backstop and knock over someone's 50 meter pig .... Well, just maybe I didn't need that much cartridge. Never broke or cratered a chicken, but I got some dirty looks from range officers and target setters.

 

 

 

 

[Bryan Austin]

Hello guys!!

The 44-40 is certainly under rated and has been neutered since WWII....and again in the 1960's.

John Kort made a video several years ago of him shooting (scoped) Javlina's at 300 meters, knocking them down every time...using black powder loads and an original style bullet.

In 1875, Doc Pardee made 20 consecutive shots @ 100 yards inside a 4" circle without wiping between shots....1,300fps advertised.

I replicated that load (scoped) using smokeless powder Reloder 7 with a few different bullets...even the 240gr @ 1,300fps safe for the 73'.

I have tested and shot nearly 3,000 high velocity high pressure loads replicating Winchester's 1903-1946 High Velocity loads that were used in the Winchester 92' @ 1,600fps

I have also tested Swiss FFG black powder loads in original unheadstamped 1880's semi-balloonhead cases and achieved 14,000psi leading me to believe that early cartridges were certainly much more powerful than today's SAAMI MAP loads. Goex FFFG resulted in 12,500psi and those same loads in modern Starline brass only made it to 10,500psi.

I have published my results of 83 different tests (can be downloaded) using a custom 20" MGM barrel and the PressuretraceII strain gauge system. USE AT OWN RISK of course: https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire/pressure-testing

I have tons of information on the "44 Center Fire" web site: https://curtisshawk21.wixsite.com/44centerfire

If a shooter will learn the history of the 44WCF, it's capabilities and limitations, he can master the rascal!! I haven't yet, but I am getting there. Still blind as a bat but I am having tons of fun.

Also many youtube videos, crude but functional! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYun1sOP_i62Xg05tbtGVsA/videos

Recently I have been trying to revert back to open sights and shooting at 265 yard targets!

In this particular video, ignore I incorrectly spelled word "Warriors", I used the Winchester 73' with 6.4gr of Trail Boss to bombard the 265 yard targets as well as my revolver and High Velocity (1,600fps loads) using my Marlin 1894CB

[Cliff Fendley]

John once told me he was using his Marlin when making that 300 video. It's pretty impressive I think.

[Bryan Austin]

John once told me he was using his Marlin when making that 300 video. It's pretty impressive I think.

That is correct, he also used a scope. I took my scope off of my Marlin but I will put it back on. I can hit 265 yard targets using open sights, both Marlin Buckohorn/Ladder and 73' Buckhorn sites...but it is not fun. I can not see where I am hitting so I have to use a spotting scope with a video recording. After each shot I stop the recording to see where the shot placement was so I can make corrections if needed. John had a heavy influence in my learning. Basically he confirmed what I did know or at least what I thought I knew.....LOL   I miss not being able to ask him questions.

[Slamfire]

 Having read lots of your post & articles,, you are doing a fine job filling in for " HIM " John would be proud.

  Coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

[Bryan Austin]

Having read lots of your post & articles,, you are doing a fine job filling in for " HIM " John would be proud.

  Coffee's ready ,, Hootmix.

Thanks Hoot!!!

[greyhawk]

Thanks Hoot!!!

Bryan
I scrounged up a handful of old Dominion semi balloon head 44/40 cases - going to do a chrono test in the next couple weeks - lets see if your 100FPS velocity increase shows up - thats had me intrigued since you posted it a while back. Will post numbers and test method when I giterdone.

[Bryan Austin]

Bryan
I scrounged up a handful of old Dominion semi balloon head 44/40 cases - going to do a chrono test in the next couple weeks - lets see if your 100FPS velocity increase shows up - thats had me intrigued since you posted it a while back. Will post numbers and test method when I giterdone.

Different brass can produce different velocities and pressures. Below is what I had...

40gr by weight of Goex FFFG with .18"-.20" compression pending balloon size/volume...usually .21 with modern brass (no balloonhead).

  Modern SL Brass - 1,235psi @ 8,305psi
  REM-UMC - 1,248fps @ 10,037psi
  WRA's - 1,272fps @ 11,001psi
  1880's Unheadstamped - 1,356fps @ 12,648psi
  Mixed Headstamps and primer sizes - 1,276fps @ 12,755psi

40gr by weight of Swiss FFG with .18"-.20" compression pending balloon size/volume...usually .21 with modern brass (no balloonhead).

  1880's Unheadstamped - 1,373fps @ 14,285psi

Simply guessing that since Dominion is rather young compared to the unheadstamped brass, my guess would be that your velocity will be around 1,250fps from at least a 24" barrel with a good chamber and .429 bore.

However, I can not wait to see your results....there is a good reason why I do not gamble...LOL!!!!!!

I forgot to add that all of those are from a 20" tight chamber MGM barrel. My Marlin 1894CB 24" seems to stay close to those velocities.

[Bryan Austin]

Looking back at my old 2010 data....

Revolver, all modern brass.
Grains by Weight with compression

Mav Dutch 200gr Big Lube

Swiss FFG 40gr @ 960fps
Swiss FFG 38gr @ 935fps

Goex FFFG 40gr @ 916fps
Goex FFFG 38gr @ 900fps
Goex FFFG 32gr @ 813fps


FWIW!!

6.4gr Trail Boss 24" barrel @ 925fps
6.4gr Trail Boss 5.5" barrel @ 820fps

[Bryan Austin]

Another FWIW!

40gr/w of Swiss FFG, as above, in my original Marlin 1889 gave 1,365fps

[Cliff Fendley]

That is correct, he also used a scope. I took my scope off of my Marlin but I will put it back on. I can hit 265 yard targets using open sights, both Marlin Buckohorn/Ladder and 73' Buckhorn sites...but it is not fun. I can not see where I am hitting so I have to use a spotting scope with a video recording. After each shot I stop the recording to see where the shot placement was so I can make corrections if needed. John had a heavy influence in my learning. Basically he confirmed what I did know or at least what I thought I knew.....LOL   I miss not being able to ask him questions.

Bryan, what would the twist be on that marlin 44-40? 1-36? I think John told me but can't remember.

[Bryan Austin]

Bryan, what would the twist be on that marlin 44-40? 1-36? I think John told me but can't remember.

I think so. I think they are all 1:36. I know my MGM barrel is 1:20 :-)