Wild West Tech, Another Mistake

[Will Ketchum]

I was watching Wild West Tech on the History Channel last night and Keith Carradine was talking about Tom Horn and how when he escaped from jail he grabbed a pistol that was some type of new fangled auto.  Then they went on to describe the Luger and why Horn couldn't figure it out.  Now I can't recall what type of pistol Horn grabbed but I know it wasn't a Luger.  Tom Horn was hanged in 1903 and the Luger didn't come out until 1908 and I bet there weren't any in the West until,several years later.

If any of you recall what type of gun Tom Horn grabbed when he broke Jail let me know and I promise to put it in my notes.  "True West" magazine had an article on it once and it seems to me it was either a Savage or a Browning

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Will: Somewhere floating around in cyberspace is the post from last night, don't know where it went! 

I have always heard it was the Luger, It did come out in 1900 in 30 Luger.  It was a streamlined version of the Borchardt that came out in 1893. (Clumsy and ugly)  This is the same Borchardt that designed the 1878 Sharps rifle also known as the Sharps-Borchardt.

I think you are thinking the German Army version called the P08, in 9mm Parabelum (9X19)  They didn't want the 30 caliber, thought is might be a bit wimpy.

[Will Ketchum]

The article I referred to showed the gun and I know it wasn't any where close to being a Luger. 

Again my lazyness bites me since I didn't bother to look up the dates on the Luger before I posted the message.  You are correct the Luger was introduced pretty much as we know it in 1899/1900 according to "The Standard Catalog of Firearms"  I hate it when I do that   When I get back from Ackley Iowa I'll have to go through my True West magazines and see if I can find the article.

Will Ketchum

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[Delmonico]

I now have also been doing some thinking, I have seen a picture of the gun and I think it was a Savage.  I think the Luger it from a movie either "Tom Horn" with Steve McQueen or "Mr. Horn" with I believe Keith Carradine playing Tom Horn.

I will do some digging, Tom Horn has always fasinated me.  I have always believed they hung him for a crime he did not do, but they did not hang an innocent man!

Always thought if you were going to kill someone it would be wiser to do it at long range with a rifle, just makes sense and the further you are away the safer (wiser?) you would be.

[Will Ketchum]

I to have been fascinated with the Tom Horn story.  About 1975 I hadn't heard of him and a guy I worked with hunted the ranch where the shooting took place.  It was still a hot topic out there he brought a book about the shooting and the trial.  I was hooked.  I also read his book "I, Tom horn" and another buy Will Henry.

He was definitely a product of his time.  I don't think he shot the kid.  He knew too much and the powers that be in Cheyenne were worried he would talk and hung him out to dry.  In his own mind I don't think he felt he had ever killed a man who didn't deserve it.

Like you said he wasn't innocent, whether he killed Willie Nickell or not.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

With all the hubub recently about if, Billy the Kid, Jesse James or Butch and Cassidy died when it was said they did, it is interesting that they have not brought up Tom Horn.

The hanging wasn't public like most of the time, a case could be made for him living to a ripe old age, there was money backing him up, some of the same interest that bankrupted Johnson County and got that bunch off Scott free. 

[RowdyBill]

I to have been fascinated with the Tom Horn story.  About 1975 I hadn't heard of him and a guy I worked with hunted the ranch where the shooting took place.  It was still a hot topic out there he brought a book about the shooting and the trial.  I was hooked.  I also read his book "I, Tom horn" and another buy Will Henry.

He was definitely a product of his time.  I don't think he shot the kid.  He knew too much and the powers that be in Cheyenne were worried he would talk and hung him out to dry.  In his own mind I don't think he felt he had ever killed a man who didn't deserve it.

Like you said he wasn't innocent, whether he killed Willie Nickell or not.

Will Ketchum

I know a little of Tom Horn, and perhaps have not read as much as yourself, but I think he probably did kill that kid.  By most accounts, Tom Horn started out as an honorable guy, then slowly turned into a ruthless killer (which a person would have to do to be an effective regulator).  There are many accounts of him sniping squatters and such, so it's very easy for me to see him shooting that 14-year old kid.  Heck, from a distance that just looks like another squatter, right?  Maybe the closet filmmaking account of the type of guy Horn was isn't to be seen in movies such as "Tom Horn" or "Mr. Horn", but perhaps the Marlon Brando character in "Missouri Breaks".  Likely he wasn't as eccentric, but every bit as dastardly.

[Delmonico]

I need to dig into my referance material, but I think Tom Horn most likely killed only 2-3 men.  As all such folks from the "Old West" the legend grows through the years.  Then folks take either side and the stories grow.  I think the real Tom Horn lies between the mad Missouri Breaks type and the Tom as portrayed in the movies and his book.

I have to go upstairs and pack my briefcase this afternoon to meet a guy for coffee and help him build a personna.  The book I am thinking about is one I ame going to take.  Will try to get back on the exact count later.

[Capt. Hamp Cox]

In the Jan/Feb 2001 issue of American Handgunner titled "Gun Grab: The Hit Man Incident." It discusses Horn's escape attempt and notes that historian Lee A. Silva has discovered the handgun in question in the possession of the deputy's grandson and namesake, Richard Proctor, listing it as a .32 caliber Browning Model of 1900, serial number 56666. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_150_25/ai_67886007

A couple of other interesting related articles are at:

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/staley/horn_vs_hollywood.htm
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/staley/tom_horn.htm