Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Darksider's Den => Topic started by: Drydock on July 22, 2020, 06:00:56 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=3Zx3Ph3xsak&feature=emb_logo
Also, Amazon has several inexpensive punchs for making those 3/4" base circles.
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Thank You My Good Drydock!
I am actually impressed, the results look VERY MUCH like historical samples from some of the manufacturies
and I will try to contact him for pricing...
I myself will be using nitrated newsprint and Lee heeled C&B bullets, Newsprint was actually used during the Great Unpleasantness by smaller shops.
yhs
prf mvl
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I ordered the kit for both calibers. With the cigarette papers it is the easiest and fastest way I've ever found to make these cartridges, with no need for templates and time consuming trace and cut.
The built in powder measure for each is also a great time savor as well. It really is a well thought out kit. I've mostly been using round balls, but am highly likely to purchase an Era's Gone .36 mold in the near future. I have an Accurate heel mold (45-200x) for the French M1873 that works superb as a .44 paper cartridge bullet. I dip lube my cartridges, it has proved plenty enough for my shooting.
UPDATE: I succumbed to temptation and ordered the Colt Conical from Era's Gone. Found that the price included shipping. Better deal than I thought.
(Same day shipping. Nice.)
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My Dear Drydock -
I haven't heard from the fellow yet, if you don't mind my asking what does the kit cost?
yhs
prf mvl
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I've also inquired about the kits. I've already got CAPANDBALL's tools and am in the process of putting together the rest of what I need. Still need to alter some 1860's to use them tho... Unless the Belgium Colts might work, hmm....
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDtYhG4vKqc&feature=emb_logo
Pathfinder, you might try these. No modifications needed.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQAxp8dUiJQ&feature=emb_rel_end
And making your own paper.
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A 3/4" circle punch.
https://www.joann.com/nesting-paper-punch-circle-75in/12422184.html
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Drydock, thanks for the links. I've already got the 3/4" hole punch, wife teaches preschool, she had a whole bunch of different size paper punches, hope she doesn't miss one. And stocked up on cigarette papers and glue sticks. Have Capandballs set for both 44 and 36 calibers, trying to think ahead. Have already purchased the Johnson and Drow mold from Eras Gone and am just trying to get set up to cast again, kinda thought I was done with that as more available bullets came available on the market. Now I want to use the experience to teach my younger (20-24) kids how to do it, like I did my older (34-37) ones when they were in their teens. So the only thing slowing me down is my own laziness I guess. I will be checking out the Kerr Mold tho, that looks interesting. He said it would work with the 44 Navies, I wonder if it would work on an unmodified 1860, looks like it should. Also need to check out his 36 caliber molds. God I can't wait to retire and have time for all my little projects I keep collecting.
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He says in the video that it works with all the Italian .44s.
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I saw that, and if it works with the Navy I can't see it not working with the Army, I've learned over time tho that not everything works the way I expect it to.
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Looking at the miniscule clearance on the Kerr revolver it was designed for, I can't imagine it not working. But, as you say . . . ;)
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I also have concerns about the Lee Molds in this application. I have the .36 Lee mold, and while it works fine with loose powder, for which it was designed, it seems the shank is too wide to accomodate the paper cartridge and still load easily. Now mine is an old single cavity, i've had it over 30 years, and perhaps the newer ones are different, but in searching the net I've found no one using it in paper cartridges.
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I've also got the 36 and 44 Lee molds, and remember using both in my revolvers, can't say I ever even thought of using them to build up paper cartridges back then.
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Funny we all catch the same videos. Did anyone find out the costs on these? I have made them with dowels for a while, but this looks easier.
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The full kit was as above was quoted as $50, I just ordered both of the formers and a funnel for $35. With what I've already got, all I needed were the formers.
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I guess I can show what he sent me:
PAPER CARTRIDGE KIT PRICE LIST
Paper Cartridge Kit w/ .36 Former: $35
Paper Cartridge Kit w/ .44 Former: $35
Paper Cartridge Kit w/ Both Formers: $50
.36 Former w/ 1 Funnel: $20
.44 Former w/ 1 Funnel: $20
Both Formers w/ 1 Funnel: $35
All prices include shipping.
(FWIW I understand they're just starting out at this, prices may change as they match production with demand)
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Mogo, I'm planning on using a pair of 1851s and my Sharps .50-70 carbine for the Grand Muster next year.
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Excellent choice. That temps me to pack my army and Dance. I may be putting an order in as well
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THANKS DRYDOCK!
I guess I can show what he sent me:
PAPER CARTRIDGE KIT PRICE LIST
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Both Formers w/ 1 Funnel: $35
All prices include shipping.
(FWIW I understand they're just starting out at this, prices may change as they match production with demand)
THAT is a bargain! I will be ordering as soon as I hear from him!
TNX
prf marvel
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I tried to E-mail them twice about obtaining the kit and have received no response. What E-mail address are you guys using?
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Question ;I've got a pair of '51 Navies that I shoot once maybe twice a year. Do I understand it that when you install the cartridges in the cylinders, that the power and fire from the caps will go through the paper and ignite the powder ?? You don't have to open the back of the cartridge in any way ?
Isom
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Yes, you load them as is, and they fire just fine. That is the reason for the separate circle for the base, so that the primer flame only has a single layer of nitrated paper to go thru.
Navy Six, you have to go to the You-tube page and use the e-mail link in the description there. I understand I may have jump started a lot of orders for him, so it may take some time. Remember, he has a normal day job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Px4vBg2vwdQ
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Dustin is very quick to respond usually, I used the link on Monday night, got the response from him yesterday morning, ordered and he said it should ship today. Be aware that he uses a PayPal link for you to pay.
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I would say if you have not heard from him, check the address is correct and send again. Decided to order the combo set, sent the email at ~9, quickly got a reply, did the paypal and had reply saying it would be sent today. all that is me only periodically looking at the email and it was done in about 90 minutes. Big thumbs up on customer service here.
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I got a reply shortly after Drydock posted the info!
I am putting in my order today!
Our email and certain internet services in The Great Southwest has been slowed down remarkably in the last several weeks,
along with several outages.
long winded explanation below.
yhs
prof marvel
begin long winded explanation------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At first I put it down to too many people downloading porn more people on the web due to covid, but
further queries of my old resources from my prior dayjob has led me to dig out my old toolkit . The data gleaned
led to to the realization that we are experiencing greater than normal internet attacks from the usual suspects
in the far east and former iron curtain. Way more foreign players of "The Great Game **" are involved on the various
Social Media ( ie facebook, twit, news comments, etc) and a combination of a variety of attacks are being reported
by security sites that monitor such things. For example DDOS: Distributed Denial Of Service. Those attacks were
commonly considered simplistic "kiddie scripts" in the dim past but with a combination of well disguised remote botnets
and the resources of server farms run by a State Players, they are now a huge problem until combined efforts of
widespread Security personnel can snuff it. Until it happens again from different places.
As attack traffic,increases so does server load as the vendors try to isolate and remove it. Some regions experience
slowdowns more than others
** The Great Game" was a termcoined by Rudyard Kipling desribing the ongoing spying, political manipulation , and hostilites
during 19th century between the British Empire and the Russian Empire over Afghanistan, Persia, India and neighboring territories
in Central and South Asia.
https://guides.osu.edu/c.php?g=300070&p=7043825 (https://guides.osu.edu/c.php?g=300070&p=7043825)
end begin long winded explanation------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Now PLEEEAAASE make one for the Dragoon! (Have sent e-mail to that effect.)
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:) WOWZERS ;)
Atz a really nifty neat kit. It makes really nifty neat paper cartridges. Good Grief how boring. I thought Annealing cases was boring. I'd go knutz. However:
Those paper cartridges are really quite cool. The only "Butt" I see is having to modify the barrel lug to clear the conical. I offer an alternative. Off the gun cylinder loading. I don't load "On the Gun" anyway because Snubbies don't have loading rammers that ram (just look cool). I would suggest setting your Cap Gun up for easy take down and using a Cylinder Loading Stand such as the Tower of Power (Shameless Plug for Dick Dastardly).
I was just thinking how quick it would be at a Match to stuff 5 paper cartridges inna Cylinder with the loading stand. Really quick. Let us remember I personally couldn't bring myself to make hundreds of paper cartridges so that "advantage" is lost on me. I do however "dipper" load my Cylinders at a match and use a tower of Power ('Nother Shameless Plug for Dick Dastardly). Burma Shave
Hide and Watch
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Or, dear Casketeer, take a look at the Eras Gone "Kerr" bullet mold. And of course the .36s need no modifications to work with the Colt mold, or you could just use round ball in the cartridge. All of which would work superbly with a TofP as well.
Public service announcement: Received my New EG Colt mold, four days from order to mailbox.
Boring is true, I usally just do 5 or 10 a night in front of the computer. 30 days between matchs gives me plenty. Practice on the farm with loose powder and ball. I find I can store the .36s nicely in empty Wolf 9mm boxs.
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that is a pretty neat set but having fallen into the (bad, dubious,fascinating, frustrating) pick one, influence of a certain gun plumber who will remain nameless my guns are of the rather minuscule barrel length and lack any sign of that loading lever thingy. Since that requires loading off the gun cartridges really offer little speed in loading or convenience,
But that is a pretty cool setup.
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Well, I've done around a 100 cartridges using this kit:
1-Having the template on the former is genius. Being able to slide loose rolls up to tighten before cutting was also inspired.
2-The "20" and "25" grain spouts on my flasks work perfect with each caliber. Lot faster that way. Love the little funnel though.
3-.44s are easier than the .36s. Also these things hold together quite well.
4-I missed the Nobel prize awarded to the guy who invented the glue stick. Well deserved for this application.
5-My revolvers really seem to like these.
6-5 or 6 a night with a mixed drink in front of the computer passes time. My wife thinks my craft time is cute. Much more and the eyes start to cross.
7-Buying 1000 cigarette papers at the local smoke shop raises the suspicions of the local potheads. Stick to Amazon.
I like it!
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:) WOWZERS ;)
Atz a really nifty neat kit. It makes really nifty neat paper cartridges. Good Grief how boring. I thought Annealing cases was boring. I'd go knutz.
Ah My Dear Coffin
If you want REALLY BORING , try nitrating your own newsprint!
yhs
prof frugal
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I've got the Cap & Ball revolver paper cartridge former. https://youtu.be/GbMLIuAuHio Works as advertised and helps support a great you tube channel. Jw
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I made 30 this weekend in small batches. Made a few papers, came back filled them made a few more empties. Works well. I have only tried the .44s, as that is most what I am in need of. I went through a phase 10-15 years back and tried to do paper cartridges. Got tired of dealing with paper residue and at the same time came into posession of my plastic vials. These I like a lot. I am only using round ball, and I make the cartridges a little longer, it gives a bit more surface area on the lead to seal.
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:) Ha!! See!! ;)
My point Spizakly!! Mogo made 30 paper cartridges over the weekend. But wait, there's more, if you count shooting time only, skipping the schmoozing, flesh pressing, huggie bodying, and story swapping (cleaned up for a mix'd audience), on any given Saturday, yer gonna shoot up those 30 paper cartridges in about a minute and a half, or a little more, or just three stages of a CAS match.
I just can't bring myself to do dat. Now, if you've got 50 or so little old ladies in a musty old barn like place, just churning out paper cartridges . . . . . . . . .
Hide and Watch
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But iffin you're loading paper cat'idges at the clearin' table, ya gots more time fir schmoozin', flesh pressing, huggie bodying, and story swapping, iffin that's impotent to yas. ;D
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Ha. So I am fully prepared for you all to move away from me on the Group W bench for what I am about to reveal.
I own one pistol that shoots cartridges, and it started as a Percussion Remington. I have lots of cap and ball pistols. So, last year I started reloading 45 Colt, soon, I hope to add 44-40 to that. When I reload, I approach it like the scientist/Chemist I am and do so with respect and care. Each step is part of an SOP and it is followed, especially since I have a single press and a cheap balance. When it comes to cap and ball, I am equally careful, but more comfortable having shot/loaded them since mid 90s and they are sort of like the single shot front stuffers I shot in the 80s. So, if I did a nice chart in time comparison, the making of those 30 paper cartridges were far less time intensive than loading 30 brass cartridges, even if you factor in the fumbly thick simian fingers of mine loading the cappers. i am up to 36 now, and that 6 was just in a few minutes while my wife was on a business call when I got home from work.
I will follow the Amazon recommendation for papers. When I first did this in the 90s, I made the ends too thick and while I got 100% ignition, i dealt with residue sometimes. Also, had the joy of stopping in my pharmacy after a client meeting, so I am in a suit, and then asked for 300 rolling papers. They never looked at me the same. Later when I was working on my MBA, the teacher was explaining the stock market and basically for individuals, stock buying is like horse racing. Basically people buy stock in products they like. He remembered a student asking him if ZigZag was publically traded. I was the only one who laughed in a room of ~40. Teacher commented that he knew I must have experienced my undergraduate more in depth than the rest of the class. Later on a break one guy asked me what ZigZag was. I told him and several others and they never looked at me the same either. Ha.
Oh, and I will not confirm what is locked in my musty old barn. Did you hear something? Are people talking? Authorities asking questions? There is nothing in there. Honest.
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Even quicker with Round Balls: Roll the cylinder long, with minimal cut off at the bottom. (It does not take long to get good at this.) Leave the top uncut. Glue the bottom as usual. Drop the cylinder in the former, then drop in your powder charge. Drop in the ball. Squeeze the ball down tight on the powder, then twist the paper shut tight atop the ball. Cigarette papers will hold this twist. You are done.
I dip lube the ball end in melted paraffin, the paper holds the lube even better than the ball, and it squishs nicely in the chamber. Or just over lube the round after loading.
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That is a quicker approach. i had not thought of lubing them. I have a 2nd glue stick that I am rolling the ball in and sealing the paper over it. I see an expirment in my future.
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Extra points for the Group W reference ;D
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Thanks! For various reasons, that was an unofficial theme for our house in college. It was a bit before my time, but you regularly heard Steppenwolf on the stereo there. I find when I say it now many do not know it. Sadly I said "and the all moved away from me on the Group W bench" when a girl busted out laughing. Kick to the groin when she followed with "That is my dad's favorite song"
Ouch.
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Life is cruel sometimes. I try to pass on some classical experience to my son's. They know Thanksgiving means Alice's Restaurant, and they can taunt you with Your Mother was a hamster, and your Father smelled of Elderberries. Nothing important, but it's a start ::)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVMVPpdqrRI
And now he does have formers for the big iron.
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Ordered the formers w/funnel when I got home tonite, an hour later got an email that they shipped. Wow!
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I shot 40 a couple of weekends ago in my .44 Dance. It was at the Jesse James Farm Shoot. I did have some residue in the chambers, but had 100% ignition. I put lube over the balls on every other cylinder. There was no fouling issue at all. During cleaning, I noted there was less residue in the chambers. I will definitely continue with these. I normally load up a bunch of 1 dram vials with 25 grains of BP. I would estimate loading with the paper cartridges cuts loading time by 60%.
Caveat, when doing this, remember to cap your gluesticks when done. They do not work so well when you come down two days later to make more cartridges and have dry sticks.
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I shot a GAF match with my .36s this last weekend, no problems at all. I was using the Eras Gone Colt bullet, dip lubed, and they ran just fine. I was surprised that there was much less powder fouling in the chambers than with naked powder.
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Did you have any paper residue between shots? I pulled some out.
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I only checked when I cleaned at the end of the day. Most of the chambers had a paper ring at the bottom, but never more than one, it never affected ignition. No build up, just the one ring. This is with cigarette paper.
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Never hurts to have a couple of cartridge boxs: https://www.ebay.com/str/capandball/Cartridge-boxes-and-formers/_i.html?_storecat=1755395719
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I was finding rings. Removed them when I looked, but had 100% ignition.
I have made a couple of cartridge boxes for the 44, which means it is easy, especially since I do not have a drill press. I used a 1/2" paddle bit. I have not found a 15/32" one, it would be a tighter fit. The 1/2 inch works well for spacing. I use scrap 1 x 4 (5.25" in lenghth) and slice an inch off length wise. Mark the centers of the holes every 3/4 of an inch. It puts a 1/2 of wood on each end and 1/4 inch between each hole. I drill holes in the main piece of wood to 3/4" depth and 1/2 in the inch wide piece. They should line up. I had white linen scrap, so I made a 1.5 inch strip and glued to the back of both pieces as the hinge. I used scrap folders to make a sliding "box" I like to clean up old labels in my spare time. So I have a couple of options. You can print with a parchement background in word. I have also printed on old grocery bags that were cut to 8.5 x 11. Laser printers do not like the grocery bags, toner flakes off eventually.
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Those are really neat Mogorilla. Stupid question, but would the last one from Hazards be the correct one found on cartridges from Colt cartridge works, or was that a different one?
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NEVER MIND...duh... should really wait to ask questions til I’m fully awake,lol. Just read the label closer.
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Dustin now has an Etsy shop: https://www.etsy.com/shop/GunsOfTheWest
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Since Cartridges and primers are as rare as frog hair, I have been taking stock. I realized I am good on caps, powder and lead balls, so I have been making cartridges. I have monitored prep and all things involved and really feel I am down to 3 minutes a cartridge. This is from packet of rolling papers to final ready to shoot cartridge. I am pretty sure if you factor in depriming, cleaning cases, resizing, etc, that is much faster than my single stage reloader. If you get one of these (they are the bees knees), I recommend getting the Raw cigarette papers. I think they work the best and are somewhat thinner than Zigzags. They are readily available on Amazon. I plan on getting 250 of the 44 made before trying my hand at the 36.
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If I get the length right so I don't have to trim the bottom, I think I can do the twist top round ball cartridges under 2 minutes. Been making Dragoon rounds.
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Ran out of papers. just got some of the RAW ones last night. Opting to wait while I get a hole punch as my hand cutting stinks! I think I may try a hand again on the .36s. I have 200 44 ready to go.
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Thanks for link.
Ordered the .36 cal kit from Dustin.
I had tried paper cartridges before, from cigarette papers, but it was leaving charred paper in the chambers that DID block ignition after a couple of stages.
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Received the .36 kit today. Excellent! I have the video memorized by now.
Promptly turned around and ordered a 4-pack of replacement papers. The sleeves aren't the issue, it's the convenience of those nicely cut circles for the end papers.
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I just located a local source for the Raw brand papers and ordered a 3/4" hole punch from Amazon. I have a day off tomorrow and plan on making a few boxes to carry the finished cartridges.
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I've found a 5/8" punch works best for the .36s.
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Oddly enough I found that a typical pocket size wood match box can fit five .36cal cartridges from prior experimenting.
I'll just print out some size adjusted period covers to wrap them. I know sliding drawer-type is not a correct conveyance, but what the hey, they'll work. Besides it's a better use for the box containing those sorry excuse of a strike anywhere match they put out now with that crappy green tip.
Mogorilla, I'll field test them at the NCOWS National coming up in June.
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KVC has a small shoot this weekend, then the Jerry Barnes shoot May 1. I am 100% shooting them this weekend and not sure about next weekend. I am still up in the air on what to shoot at Nationals. I am definitely thinking that I will be shooting them at the Grand Muster.
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I'll see you at the Jerry Barnes 2-Gun Shoot too, then, along with Yuma Kid.
I have a craft paper cutter that punches 3/4" circles. That should be enough to cover the open span in that collar of the former.
Somehow ended up with an industrial size bag of large paper coffee filters. Next stop is hardware store to get stump remover for a potassium nitrate source.
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Observation: Been loading dragoon cartridges. Have now found that if I'm loading round ball cartridges I don't even get the knife out anymore. I just roll them close on the bottom, glue on the end, then drop powder and ball and twist. For the Dragoons I roll the ball on the glue stick as the paper is not long enough to twist, but works great that way too. The only time I cut now is when I'm loading conicals. Also, I have found that a 5/8" circle is neater and leaves fewer rings than using the 3/4" circle. This is a great kit!
Still waiting on that Nobel prize for the inventor of the glue stick.
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Had to spend some time off this morning, so tried to be productive. Made some boxes for the paper cartridges, one for some 45-70 cartridges and the start of a knife sheath, just need to paint it.
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That looks like a good morning.
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Loading the Eras Gone .36 Colt Cartridge Works bullet today, found another short cut: The most fiddely thing about these is finessing the glued bullet heel into the trimmed case, as opposed to simply dropping a ball into an uncut case. But a thought occurred.
So, cut a ciggarette paper in half, then apply glue to one edge and roll it on the former, close enough to the bottom end to not need trimming. Glue on the end cap. With the long untrimmed case standing in the die, drop in the powder. Roll the heel of the Eras Gone bullet on the glue stick, then simply drop it into the untrimmed case. Squeeze it down firmly on to the powder. Remove the cartridge from the die and roll between fingers to ensure tight adhesion of the heel to the paper. Now, lay the cartridge on its side on the table and put a knife edge into the bullet groove, and roll the cartridge along the table with the knife. This cleanly cuts off the excess paper, and you've got a nice, clean edged and powder tight cartridge.
This also works with the .44 Johnson and Dow bullet.