Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Winchester Model 1876 => Topic started by: oldguncrazy on September 12, 2014, 09:12:18 PM
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Hello all, I'm new. I ran across this forum looking for parts for 1876 model 2 in 45-75(I think). Its 6900 serial range with a printed dust cover. Bought from outwest (was in a barn) it was partially frozen but me and my father have it all apart now. Brown and rusty, we soaked the internals(bolt, toggles) in Evaporust. Bore is actually starting to look decent after lots of soaking and cleaning. I'd love to get it shooting but thay might be wishful thinking. Needs hammerspring, firingpin, magazine spring, extractor and rear site. Prob more. Stock is dry and shrank up but kinda fits the look of the oldgirl. What is you guys opinion? Try to get her shooting or just functional and throw her above the fireplace? Im a novice with Winchesters, how hard is it to get the timing set etc? Any help or tips greatly appreciated.
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Heck, get her shooting! You'll love it. ;D
You can get new parts for original Winchesters from Homestead Parts (http://homesteadparts.com/shopcart/commerce.cgi?product=Winchester_1876&cart_id=1410576219.1395).
There should be no "timing" issues on these rifles. With the proper parts, it should fit and work just fine from the function standpoint.
You can buy brass and bullets from Buffalo Arms (www.buffaloarms.com).
Both companies are great folks to work with.
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Thanks BlackPowder, Im trying to load pictures directly off my phone but no luck yet. I thought the spring screws adjust the timing. Thats great if it goes right back together and will feed correctly.
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It'll be good to see some photos, but I don't think you can load directly from your phone. You'll need to email them to yourself, save on your computer, and then upload from there.
It's always satisfying to get the old originals shooting again. Even if the barrel is bad, it can be relined for a pretty reasonable cost.
Don't give up on 'em!
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Heres some pictures form the start.
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:'(
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???
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:-\
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It actually looks much better now. It is from Nevada. I live in North Carolina and if it sat in a barn here for along time it would have been gone. The rust is more of a crust. Its lifting off nicely. I bought it as a relic but really hope it can be brought back.
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Post some more photos when you get it cleaned up good.
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Im going to take some today, its at my fathers house soaking. What is your opinion on the rusty finish? Should I strip it and try the old salt and vinegar trick to give it a patina or just leave it brown? Im keeping it and collector interest would be non-existent anyway. A collector buddy of mine said I should have left it frozen and dirty as a relic but I just couldn't do it, it seemed to have alittle potential as a functional relic.
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Bolt and toggles came out great. I can actually read the serial number on the bolt. Evaporust works!
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Serial is 6925, matches the rifle
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I think I'd just leave it brown, but then I'm not there to see it closeup and personal.
Looks like it'll live again! :D
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Can anyone help determine the caliber? Im assuming its 45-75 but the chamber looks pretty flat and straight. The serial# is 6925 and puts it manufactured in 1878.When did the other calibers become available? iI can cast the chamber if need be.
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I hope so Blackpowder! I thought of selling it at one time but have since fell in love with it. Cant wait to throw some lead out of the oldgirl!
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Traces of blue under forearm. Barrel serial matches
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;)
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;)
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oldguncrazy,
So far, things are looking pretty good.
I have to ask, you have not found a caliber marking on the gun yet?
Just a suggestion on my part, Most likely area would be upper left hand barrel flat near the breach.
My best,
Blair
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Hi Blair, I don't see anything yet. I just sent Grizzly a message about it. I read one site that said the other calibers didnt come available until 1879. Dont know if thats true. Im trying to slowly lift the rust and dirt off with a scotch brite pad and oil soaks. Its a slow process. Its definitely a 45 caliber but the chamber looks pretty straight.
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This is what it looked like with when I first got it. Bone dry and crusty
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oldguncrazy,
The SS number you indicate was made in 1878.
In "The Winchester Book" by George Madis, he states the first cartridge caliber the '76 was produced in was .45-75.
This is a slightly bottle necked casing. (You would not be able to see this if looking down the barrel from the muzzle.)
The SS # you list also indicates a period of production where Winchester changed from a screw mounted "dust" cover guide on top of the receiver to a guide manufactured as part of the receiver.
Check to see if your rifles dust cover guide is held on with screws?
My best,
Blair
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Thanks so much for the info Blair, the guide is definitely screwed on.
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The plug in the bore is because its soaking. it looked like a sewer pipe but now the rifling is very strong and the bore is getting some shine. There is scattered pitting but its not nearly what I thought it was going to be.
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oldguncrazy,
You have is what "Madis" calls a second model or type II '76. (according to Madis)
The transition from the type II to the type III start around SS # range of # 7000.
The original '76's offered no dust covers. The second variation offered a dust cover as an option, but with the screw held guide/ramp.
Your Rifle may not have a cartridge caliber marking on it. (There was only one offered at the time, .45-75. and that was unique to the '76).
A very worth while salvage project, even if you never shot it.
I hope this has helped.
My best,
Blair
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Thanks so much for your time Blair, that definitely answered my questions. Huge help. Ill continue to post updates.
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old gun crazy,
Please do.
And if you don't mind me suggesting... please stay away from the gun with a Scotch Bright pad. And never go after it with a wire wheel.
My best,
Blair
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Im being very careful, its the green kitchen pad with 3and 1 oil. Mainly using a rag. im not removing the finish just the active red rust. No steel wool or wire wheels I promise! If you have any suggestions on this type of cleaning let me know. Its a plumb brown. I just want to stop the deterioration and get it slick on the inside.
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oldguncrazy,
Wet and dry sand paper. With a flat wood block to support it. This helps keep all the flats flat and edges clear.
Stating very lightly with 380 and going finer.
Water and/or a light weight oil.
Should you want to keep the dull gray/brownish like finish, wipe it down with Birchwood Casey "Rust and Blue Remover", and re-oil.
Best I can offer without actually seeing the firearm.
My best,
Blair
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Thanks again for all the info. Ill give it a go. Wouldn't the Caseys remove the finish down to the white? I thought about stripping it since it was so badly surface rusted but now after so many oil soaks it really smoothing out and its a really nice patina. Im just trying to be very careful and patient.
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oldguncrazy,
If it were new, and you wanted to antique it, I would say you are correct, but, I think you are just a bit beyond new and antiquing that firearm.
My best,
Blair
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With no caliber marking, it is a .45-75. I don't want to burst your bubble, but if you had left it in it's "as found" condition it would have been worth a considerable amount to those of us who collect relics. An 1876 Winchester in relic condition is highly desirable and hard to find.
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Hi Buck,
I honestly thought about leaving it. Besides the bolt and toggles I haven't altered it. It was so full of gunk and rust it would have ate itself from the inside out. Im just stopping and removing the active rust with lots of oil. I bought it as a relic ,but thought it would be a waste of a historical firearm to let it continue to deteriorate. Had it been in worse shape I wouldn't have started. I plan on keeping it and hopefully shooting it. Believe me, it still looks like a relic. ::)
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Hi all, just wanted to give a quick update. The bore has come out nice. Definitely a shooter. Strong rifling and only scattered pitting. The chamber is pretty smooth so I dont think case expansion is going to be a problem. I want to assure the purest that Im not attacking the finish like an Ethiopian on a pizza. I soak it down with oil and take a rag and lightly, I mean lightly, rub until a red slurry paste lifts.I have used a green kitchen pad on raised extremely rough patches of rust. Again very lightly. The plumb brown finish is still very thick and intact and it will stay that way. I have not touched or sanded the wood, Its almost petrified and I love it. My intention is to keep it as close to the original condition as possible but I didnt want to have my hands red and dirty everytime I handled it. As far as the inside ive soaked the bolt and toggles in evaporust because they were so badly corroded. They are already flash rusting and I will oil them after. Hope this clarifies, I thought about stripping it down at one point, but that was more tthinking out loud. Ive owned original Sharps, Spencers and an original Trapdoor trials rifle. I would not just go crazy with a grinding wheel and sandpaper. Just decided that Id like to shoot this rifle and enjoy it instead of look at it on the wall if possible. Thanks for everyones help and interest.
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It sounds like you have everything covered as far as preserving the rusty history that covers the rifle. I might also suggest that the wood be left alone. No cleaning, sanding or oiling. Wood grunge is very important when preserving the history of a relic. I did record you serial number on my list and appreciate your contacting me via private message. I also wanted to add that this gun originally went into the warehouse as an open top and was later, brought back into the factory from the warehouse and had the dust cover and rail added. If you get a Cody letter on this serial number, it probably has the comment "lid" or "with lid".
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Wow thats amazing Buck! Im going to get a Cody letter at some point. Do you have a reference book that contains this information? Also, I have talked to Bob Knapp about replacement parts but really would like to find original ones for it. Do you know of any sources for them? Im assuming its just a needle in a haystack and alittle luck of running across them at the right time. I haven't even wiped the stocks down, I thought about buying a repro set for shooting and putting them up. Id hate for it to split while shooting. Thanks again for the info, Ive always collected military firearms but really have fell in love with the history of the Winchesters.
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Here's the stocks. Is there anytype of protective wax that will seal in the old dirt and finish without cleaning it? Also, the butt stock does not have holes drilled for cleaning kit and the butt plate is solid. Is it a replacement or did the early models not have the trapdoor and cleaning rod? Its alot darker in person, I guess the flash lightens it up
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oldguncrazy,
Do you have any good photos of the upper surface of the dust cover on your Rifle? Post them if you would please?
Just my prospective based on past postings, you own the gun, do with it as you wish within safe shooting limits of course.
I may offer you suggestion as to what to do or not to do based on your postings. But I wont Tell you what you can or can't do. That choice as the owner is yours and yours alone.
My best,
Blair
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I will take a photo when I get home. You just need a picture of the thumbprint area? I really appreciate everyones info and suggestions. I was trying to clarify that I have seen horribly cleaned firearms and its a shame. Im just a tinkerer and thankful for any tips or advice. I wont butcher it and im going very slow. It took 2 months to get it apart.
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oldguncrazy,
You know of the thumb print area on the dust cover?
That too fits into the early production of you firearm.
My best,
Blair
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Yes I read about it. I was so ignorant with Winchesters that I figured they made a boatload of 76s just like they did 73s.
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dust cover
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Stock in natural light
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oldgungrazy,
There should be a number stamped in the toe of the butt plate and a corresponding number on the side of the lower tang on the receiver. Do these numbers match? If not, which numbers are different? The butt stock should also have the same number stamped in the channel cut-out for the top tang. These are assembly numbers, not serial numbers.
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I can barely make out a 53 on the lower tang on left side. Cant tell if there is another number that follows. I see a triangle on the front point of the stock and possibly a 3. The top tang cutout is extremely worn and dirty either from recoil or someone taking it off a long time ago. Doesnt look recent. I cant find a number on the buttplate but I haven't soaked it. Its pretty dirty and corroded.
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Im also having a rough time getting the extractor pin out of the bolt. I have soaked it and got it to budge alittle but its not moving now. I don't trust myself to try and drill it out. Any suggestions on thst would be great.
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Im also having a rough time getting the extractor pin out of the bolt. I have soaked it and got it to budge alittle but its not moving now. I don't trust myself to try and drill it out. Any suggestions on thst would be great.
You might try Kroil which is about the best for getting rust frozen metal pieces apart.
Will Ketchum
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Thanks Will. Ive heard about it but will have to order some. Couldnt find any at the local stores. Im visiting a sick family member in Kalispell MT till friday. I ordered replacement parts from Bob Knapp and will put them in this weekend. Im still scrounging for originals as well. Thanks everyone for the help.
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She lives!
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Need some help, firing pin is in and mainsping. Man its got a heavy action with the new spring. The firing pin retractor works but is the pin supposed to just freefloat? Seems like on a fast rack it moves forward on its own(firing pin). Also the trigger has alot of play, its crisp but has alot of travel forward almost like it needs a return spring. Is this normal?
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Hello oldguncrazy,and congratulations on making the choice of preserving the old 1876 Winchester. If the firing pin floats that means all is well! When they are slick and a round is slammed home the primer will show a small mark SOME OF THE TIME. The first time I noticed this ,I sat up straight too! Yes Sir the trigger float is also normal. Have you tried adjusting the Main spring tension ? That may help. The 1876 Winchester is a ,as you know Very Large action and a good and well tuned one has a very positive feel when racked back and fore.Good luck on your project and I ,Hope you the Best ,,,,,,DT
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Thanks DT, huge help. I cant wait to take her to the range. Hopefully wont be much longer. Ive read that the early second models are iron frames instead of steel? Should I get some custom rounds with a low load to start? After all this work Id hate to blow her up.
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That old rifle should only use Black Powder Loads and that would be after the headspace is checked and all the Toggle pins are inspected. I shoot my Original 1876 Winchesters regular,with No problems. But I gave them a close inspection first. Trust your judgment and have a good time with your project.,,,,DT
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Thanks Dusty, I wouldn't shoot smokeless. Having a firing pin through my eye doesn't sound like fun haha. What is the correct headspacing? I tried to find measurements online with no luck. The pins look good. Im still going to lay her in an old tire with a string just to be safe.Orderibg magazine spring, dustcover spring and a few others then its time to order some ammo.
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Thanks Dusty, I wouldn't shoot smokeless. Having a firing pin through my eye doesn't sound like fun haha. What is the correct headspacing? I tried to find measurements online with no luck. The pins look good. Im still going to lay her in an old tire with a string just to be safe.Orderibg magazine spring, dustcover spring and a few others then its time to order some ammo.
That was just a friendly reminder about the BP. What is the correct headspacing ? That is a tough one with these old lever actions and obsolete cartridges. If I was going to shoot the old rifle ,not saying You Should do This!!!!. I would first purchase some 45-75 wcf brass. After the brass has been sized correctly I would chamber a couple of the empty cases and check how much end play the bolt has ,(when it is closed on the case ) The rim thickness (fit) between bolt face and chamber stop is what you must measure. Brass rim thickness for these old cartridges vary + or - . I look for a close fit as possible . One thing that I would do for sure is ,after I got the bore cleaned or pollished as good as possible . I would slug the bore and use soft lead bullets .002 over bore and No jacketed bullets.After you slug the bore send me the measurement . I have original Winchester moulds and would be glad to send you some soft cast bullets to try.,,,,DT
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oldguncrazy,
This is way off the subject, but I was born and raised in Kalispell. Thought it interesting when you made the comment that you were visiting with a sick friend in Kalispell. Hope everything is well.
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Thanks DT! That would be great. My wifes stepfather just got diagnosed with stage4 lymphoma. He and my mother-in-law just moved to Kalispell 2 years ago. Its sad, it was a life long dream of his to live there. Hes a Vietnam Vet and the doctors are pretty positive its from Agent Orange. Anyway, absolutely beautiful country up there.He mustered up the strength and we went shooting at the gravel pit near Talley Lake. I hope to see him and Montana again soon. Really was Gods Country.
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Have any of you fellers used Gad Custom Cartridges out of Wisconsin? They are 50 bucks a box of 45-75. 63 dollars shipped
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That was a bear. The pin was frozen solid to the extractor. The extractor actually cracked at the bottom of the hole.Went through 4 starter punches( Cheap Chinese Garbage) and the pin came out in two pieces
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I never got loaded cartridges from Gad but I ordered some 38 heeled bullets, he said he would
ship them in a week, and after several calls and 2 months I got some ugly looking things that
looked like they cast with a cold mold, never used them other than melted them down.
Buffalo arms lists black powder 45/75 loaded cartridges, that's were I'd go IMHO
BTB
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Thanks Bear, id rather spend alittle more and get decent ammo. Im going to hand load but want a box to test her first.Thanks again for saving me from a rough time.
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Just to give you fellers an update, the 76 is gone :'( I decided to get a Navy Arms Lemat Army and a Project Colt Lightning in 38-40 and couldn't have them all. I just started a thread in the Colt section. I miss her already.. The guy I sold it to is going to send an update when he shoots her. Ill post pictures when I get them. Thanks everyone for all the help and advice.