Author Topic: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?  (Read 980 times)

Offline Virginia Gentleman

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Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« on: February 09, 2021, 10:34:06 PM »
Has any truly non corrosive black powder substitute been developed that is safe in black powder firearms?

Offline ndnchf

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2021, 06:06:48 AM »
Blackhorn 209 is about the best currently available. It is non-corrosive and the guns clean up easy, just like smokeless.  I use it in a lot of smaller cartridges. It is clean burning and very accurate. I wash my cases out with water and a splash of vinegar to neutralize any residue on the cases. It is pricey, but worth it to me.
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2021, 12:35:14 PM »
Blackhorn 209 is about the best currently available. It is non-corrosive and the guns clean up easy, just like smokeless.  I use it in a lot of smaller cartridges. It is clean burning and very accurate. I wash my cases out with water and a splash of vinegar to neutralize any residue on the cases. It is pricey, but worth it to me.

Virginia Gentleman didn't state his proposed use of a BP sub, but fyi Blackhorn 209 is not a SASS-legal proplellant (nor NCOWS, I think?)

Offline Reverend P. Babcock Chase

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2021, 03:47:47 PM »
Howdy,

I guess I can understand why Blackthorn 209 would not be "legal" for any of the Black Powder categories, but wouldn't it be OK for any that allow (dare I say it) smokeless powder?

Don't use Black of subs. Just asking.

Rev. Chase

Offline Abilene

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2021, 05:19:16 PM »
Howdy,

I guess I can understand why Blackthorn 209 would not be "legal" for any of the Black Powder categories, but wouldn't it be OK for any that allow (dare I say it) smokeless powder?

Don't use Black of subs. Just asking.

Rev. Chase

From SASS Shooter's Handbook, page 26:
"Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically
prohibited in ANY category. (e.g., Blackhorn 209). " 

Duplex, eh?  No wonder it cleans easily!  :)

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #5 on: Today at 04:23:40 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2021, 06:58:34 PM »
Frankly, the least corrosive BP style propellant I have used, is the original Black Powder.   I am convinced most of the supposed reputation for corrosion was created by Mercuric Primers. 

Want to see Rapid Gawd Awful corrosion?  Try not cleaning up after shooting smokeless loads with corrosive primers.  I've seen a  few fools destroy Mosins that way.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline Ridge Runner

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2021, 08:17:17 PM »
Black powder substitutes are NCOWS legal.

Offline Abilene

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2021, 09:47:28 PM »
Black powder substitutes are NCOWS legal.

In general, yes.  Every time Black Powder is mentioned in the Tally Book, it says "Black Powder or Approved Black Powder Substitute powder". I have not found any listing of approved or disapproved subs, but I would expect Blackhorn 209 to be disapproved for the same reason as SASS.  I certainly wouldn't recommend it without checking with a Judge.

Offline ira scott

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2021, 10:56:30 PM »
And how is anyone going to know if you're using an "unapproved" black powder substitute? By the smell of your smoke,  watching you clean your guns?

Comes under the heading of Don't ask. Don't tell,  IMO.  IF you win the World Championship of NCOWS and get busted for using an ILLEGAL SUB!  You'll probably have to return the Cadillac.

B.N.Scotty 
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Offline Abilene

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2021, 11:14:31 PM »
Would that be something like hoping nobody notices that your rifle has a 1st generation short stroke in it?   ???

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #10 on: Today at 04:23:40 PM »

Offline Drydock

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2021, 09:44:04 AM »
Thing about 209: You can tell.  Looks different, smells different, sounds different.   One of the reasons SASS ruled the way they did is because it's so obvious.   NCOWs might want to look at this.

Duplexing refers to using 209 as an igniter charge for a BP load.  Not allowed.  209 is considered by many organizations to be a bulk smokeless powder.  There were a number of these in the 1st quarter of the 20th century.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

Offline ira scott

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2021, 11:22:43 AM »
Colonel Drydock Sir,  I honestly don't believe anyone pays that much attention,  or think that using B.H. 209 provides any practical or unfair advantage.

BTW,  what is the ruling on B.H.209 in G.A.F.?

B.N.Scotty
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Offline Drydock

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Re: Is there a truly non corrosive black powder substitute?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2021, 04:16:05 PM »
Scott, we've never made a ruling on that.  We just say black powder, and have accepted all subs.  Since compitition requires non historical loadings in most cases,  how historical the powder is not really a consideration.  I actually agree with you, it's not that big of a deal, at least for GAF shooting.  I view the subs as a decent starting point for those looking to try BP shooting, who might otherwise be scared off much of the mythology surrounding it. (Except for that evil rust in a bottle Pyrodex!)  If I thought it conferred a significant advantage we would take it under discussion, but so far I have not seen it.

I've grabbed a few bottles of 777 the last few months, just to have something in the shortage.

 Not sure anyone has ever used 209, just too expensive for the volume of fire needed at a GAF match.  It's really a powder meant for In Line ML Deer Rifles, where a can of powder might last years.

 HOWSUMEVER!  NCOWS prides itself on its adherance to known history, so it seems this might be a consideration for them.  I've seen enough debates on headstamps to think this. 

 I think the SASS guys outlawed it because if you put in in one of those little .32s they like, it's just not enough smoke.  Since we set the floor at .38, there's enough powder volume to avoid this.  But it does pop like smokeless, and looks like ciggarette smoke to me.
Civilize them with a Krag . . .

 

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