Lubed Bullets and Black Powder

[Dave T]

When I got back to single actions (45 Colts) and black powder I started with the old Lyman 454190 cast bullet, lubed with SPG in the two grooves of the original design. Found the gun wouldn't function much past 7-8 rounds (2nd cylinder of 5 rounds) because of fouling building up on the cylinder bushing.

Someone here turned me on to the Big Lube bullets and that problem went away, but it got me wondering. Ya see, I've done some research over the years on the original BP 45 Colt rounds. Even wrote a few articles about duplicating the original performance (255@900 from a 7.5" bbl). All the original bullets I've seen from pulled cartridges, and even those illustrated in drawings and diagrams, show two narrow grease grooves, just like on the 454190 Lyman design. So, how is it that they managed with so little lube and we need so much today?

Inquiring minds want to know (and I have too much time on my hands).

Dave

[Kent Shootwell]

Which gun?

[greyhawk]

1) how many of those old guys went past the first cylinder full anyway?
2) my belief (got no evidence to support it - none at all) the powder was likely better - (cleaner) - there were many brands and, grades within brands, would you put up with dirty powder if there was cleaner stuff available? - I bet the ammo manufacturers didnt either .   

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[Coffinmaker]

   Hi Greyhawk   

Interesting question.  I'm willing to bet it's a question that has been asked before.  Several Befores in fact.  I don't know there is a good answer.

Research the question, I found a distinct lack of first person accounts.  Have not been able to find anyone whom was present at the time whom could shed light.  Couldn't even find second person accounts.  No witnesses.  Drat the Luck.

Ergo, I can only submit a WAG (Military acronym for "Wild Ass'd Guess").  My position would be:  Those folks didn't shoot their handguns a whole lot at any one time.  The military of the age didn't even provide practice ammunition.  Other hypothesis:  Cleaner burning powder.  Unsupported supposition.  I have not been able to source sufficient ammunition of the era to "test."  Or perhaps a combination of the two.  Or:  Ima Dry Hole.  No Clue.

Hide and Watch

[Dave T]

Which gun?

Kent, I'm shooting all US sourced USFA single actions...3", 4-3/4", 5-1/2", and 7-1/5" barrels. I doubt the barrel length makes a difference but the results have been the same with all of them. They all have black powder frames, which I also don't think matters much. The barrels all have groove diameters of .451" to .4515". All the chamber mouths I've measured (at least 2 for each gun) are .452" and I'm shooting .452" bullets. And finally they all have minimal barrel/cylinder gaps.

I don't think anything mechanical contributes to the binding during the second cylinder full (5 rounds). And, since the Big Lube bullets solve the problem I'm back to wondering about the original designs of lead bullets with two narrow grease grooves. (smile)

Dave

[Kent Shootwell]

Well you certainly have the right guns to test with! I've read that a 1/16 alloy was offered to the civilian market but wonder if the government used the same. These illustrations show a hollow base in the two groove bullet. Which if either makes a difference I'm hopping you discover to share with us all. Are you using ffg powder as listed on this blurry scan?
IMG_20200722_0001 by Oliver Sudden, on Flickr

[Dick Dastardly]

I have several Big Lube® bullet designs that solve the fouling question for me.  I'm using mostly J/P 45 200g bullets lube sized to .454" in both my rifle and pistols.  It's the amount of lube that makes them work well for me.  I can shoot a standard 2 day match with no need to clean my guns.  They continue to maintain both accuracy and function flawlessly.  You can view them on my web site. . . http://www.biglube.com/.  It says "not secure" but it is SQL safe.  Go there and click on "Bullet molds" to see the fly out menu.  All my designs are viewable there.  Sadly, the Mav Dutchman 44 Cal. design is not in stock now.

DD-MDA

[Dave T]

Dick,

As I said in my first post, I've solved the "shooting problem" by using your bullets, purchased from Mark Whyte in Calif. My question isn't how to solve the fouling problem. I'm curious how the old timers of the late 1870s up to about 1900 managed shooting BP with what appears to have been the standard 45 Colt bullet with two, small grease grooves.

Dave

[greyhawk]

Kent
I would rate those boolits in your scan - good enuf - certainly look better than a lot of the modern grooves we see on cast boolits. 
Have not shots Dicks designs - He certainly fixed the problem but I reckon they are overkill to a reasonable degree - nothing wrong with that, better safe than sorry eh!

Lee makes several good BP designs that will shoot all day - 459x405xHB, the pointy 459x500x3R, 379x250RF, but there dont seem to be a pattern in their stuff - the 429x200 and their 45 colt boolit are perfectly profiled but the lube grooves just dont cut it for BP at all .

RCBS cowboy work for me in the 44/40 and 38/40 but I'm not in love with the nose shape of either ----shoulda bought a few molds from accurate back when the exchange rate was better !! stuff from stateside is double money landed in Aus now.

The problem increases as we go back into the closet and start shooting originals with less than perfect bores too.   
 

[Drydock]

The 454190 is one of my favorite bullets, and I've never had a problem with BP fouling while using it in my Colts or my Cimarron 7th Cav. 

Where are you?  Location, Humidity, altitude affect fouling.  SPG is an excellent lube, but under some conditions it is not "wet" enough.  I use Beeswax/Olive oil, with a higher percentage of oil in colder/dryer conditions.  The army mix of Japan wax, mutton tallow and whale oil was noted as an excellent all weather lube.

[greyhawk]

The 454190 is one of my favorite bullets, and I've never had a problem with BP fouling while using it in my Colts or my Cimarron 7th Cav. 

Where are you?  Location, Humidity, altitude affect fouling.  SPG is an excellent lube, but under some conditions it is not "wet" enough.  I use Beeswax/Olive oil, with a higher percentage of oil in colder/dryer conditions.  The army mix of Japan wax, mutton tallow and whale oil was noted as an excellent all weather lube.

I cant see that one in their present lineup ? I have the 429-200 - its a nice shape and shoots fine - just not quite enough lube.
The LEE catalog - pictures are a tad misleading - dont tell the real story -some of the smaller groove moulds look better in the pic than in real life. I have quite a few LEE molds - easy to cast with.

I am in Aussie land - low humidity most of the time (winter is our wet time and gets damp/humid) - summers hot often enough but we dont shoot in the real hot weather - only 600feet above sea level -
Use beeswax and neatsfoot oil (50/50 most of the time) - vary the oil % to suit temperature - the last lot of neatsfoot I got was crap so gonna try a couple other mixes - mutton (kidney) fat should let us cut the beeswax % way down - and olive oil should be a good mix too .

Uberti barrels are a bit of a spoiler - so smooth!!!!     

[Dave T]

The 454190 is one of my favorite bullets, and I've never had a problem with BP fouling while using it in my Colts or my Cimarron 7th Cav. 

Where are you?  Location, Humidity, altitude affect fouling.  SPG is an excellent lube, but under some conditions it is not "wet" enough.  I use Beeswax/Olive oil, with a higher percentage of oil in colder/dryer conditions.  The army mix of Japan wax, mutton tallow and whale oil was noted as an excellent all weather lube.

I'm in the Central Arizona desert, East of Phoenix. Humidity? We don't need no stinkin' humidity! (LOL)

Guess we don't have a commercial lube that duplicates what was used in the last quarter of the 19th Century, and I'm not up to mixing it myself. With the availability of Swiss and Old E we may have powders as good as the old days. They are certainly better than when I first started this BP Cartridge journey and the only thing around was GOEX.

I do love the profile of the ol' 454190 bullet and how it looks when loaded. But then I'm a historical (not hysterical - lol) shooter.

Dave

[Drydock]

Ah, that explains it.  Yep, humidity is your problem (Lack thereof) and if restricted to commercial lubricant, then DD's designs are for you.

Although . . . I suspect you want a Large Lube capacity with the traditional nose profile of the 190.  Tom at Accurate Molds could fix you right up.  I would specify this one http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-260F-D.png  but with a .2" nose flat.

[Dave T]

Ah, if I could still stand to cast bullets (and do a lot of other stuff I used to do) but alas, I'm old and broken. I'll have to depend on what ever I can buy to keep my guns running. The Big Lube 250 from Mark Whyte will have to do.

Appreciate all the discussion and information. I may be past my physical prime but I'm still learning. (smile)

Dave

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings My Good Dave

As you have found, Big Lube is the modernisch easy answer.

regarding the historicity , none of the Gov't's would not tolerate revolvers or rifles locking up due to fouling after 6 shots.

If WWCF-44-40 was still around he could answer you in a heartbeat. His studies into the topic were quite extensive,
including buying AND DISSECTING original cartridges, then working to duplicate them.

Working off the top of my head ( not a good choice today, but I will work at finding links later ) we can summarize from
Jack's work and John-Boys work and the Mad Monk's work that

it's the powder more than the gun:

- modern stuff fouls a lot

- old original premium powder hardly fouled at all

- Swiss is really good, others I have to check on.

- which lube is important, but I "think" I remember that for commercial stuff SPG is one of the best.

- humidity , compression, and crimp all have a factor. Drydock is right on:

The 454190 is one of my favorite bullets, and I've never had a problem with BP fouling while using it in my Colts or my Cimarron 7th Cav. 

Where are you?  Location, Humidity, altitude affect fouling.  SPG is an excellent lube, but under some conditions it is not "wet" enough.  I use Beeswax/Olive oil, with a higher percentage of oil in colder/dryer conditions.  The army mix of Japan wax, mutton tallow and whale oil was noted as an excellent all weather lube.

- The other most important thing is the charcoal and the water being used to make the powder
     Bill Knight found that Goex varied A LOT. At the worst the bean counters used crappy wood WITH THE BARK ON
     for the charcoal; and badly polluted water and it sucked. The very best powders are typically made with pure spring water,
     and carefully debarked premium wood such as alder or specific types of willow . Swiss follows a really good premium formula.

- original cartridges in .44 and .45 appear to have been loaded with 2F whilst many here use 3F. Differences? I dunno, I shoot
    3F Goex and subs in C&B

- to achieve good results with modern stuff is a journey

hope this is at least entertaining,
hopefully more later as I find the links to the experts works.

prf mrvl

[kwilliams1876]

the 454190 lube groove sizes have changed over the years. Ideal molds once had very large grease grooves (blackpowder) and the later Lyman cavities went to shallow rounded grooves (smokeless). World of difference between the two shooting black. The unfortunate thing is its semi pointed nose, something to consider when shooting the new repro lever guns in 45 colt with tube magazines.
kw

[Dave T]

The unfortunate thing is its semi pointed nose, something to consider when shooting the new repro lever guns in 45 colt with tube magazines.

Being the traditionalist I am, any '73 rifle or carbine would have to be chambered for one of the "dash" cartridges. 44, 38, or 32 - takes yer pick! 45 Colt in any lever gun is...well it's just wrong! (smiley face goes here)

Dave

[medic15al]

Being the traditionalist I am, any '73 rifle or carbine would have to be chambered for one of the "dash" cartridges. 44, 38, or 32 - takes yer pick! 45 Colt in any lever gun is...well it's just wrong! (smiley face goes here)

Dave

I agree... But I have invested in four 45 Colt revolvers...

[The Pathfinder]

ONLY FOUR?! Oh well, now you've got the bug they'll multiply. I can remember seeing a picture in a book back in the 70's, in it was one 7 1/2" Colt, one 75 Remington and one #3 Smith & Wesson. I thought "boy, I'd like to own one of each of those". Now almost 50 years later I've got more than I can keep track of. It's a disease I tell you, I'm one sick puppy, a gunaholic, if you will.
Keep going, but when you start lusting after cartridges that aren't common anymore, run, don't walk, to your doctor for help. Or your local gunshop if you don't want to be cured, I know I don't.

[Dave T]

Well...After I pick up latest from the FFL dealer (later today) I'll have 7 revolvers chambered in 45 Colt. See, Pathfinder is right. (lol)

I'm seriously thinking about acquiring an 1873 Carbine. It's been hard to find a new Winchester in 44 WCF, but I'll keep looking. (smiley face goes here)

Dave