Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => The Barracks => Topic started by: RattlesnakeJack on September 30, 2011, 08:54:50 PM
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The No. 4 Model was the first hinged-frame (i.e. break-action) revolver produced by Webley and marketed under its own name, beginning in 1877. It was very popular with British military officers for their personal sidearm .... and one will occasionally even observe its rather distinctive appearance in the movies ..... such as this still from the latest version of The Four Feathers -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley%20and%20other%20revolvers/4FEATHERSOFFICER-Copia.jpg)
Well, Pards, I am now in possession of my latest treasure in the way of 19th Century British revolvers. A few days ago, I received a .476 Webley No. 4 revolver (also commonly referred to as the Webley-Pryse). Today I faxed off to the BATF an application for a supplementary Form 6NIA, to add a few recent firearm acquisitions to my list ..... including my this "new" revolver .... so I will undoubtedly be bringing it along to Muster. Although i have not yet had a chance to fire it, if it lives up to the reputation of this model for ruggedness and reliability, and is acceptably accurate (as the seller has assured me it is) I intend to shoot it as my main match handgun!
A couple of photos -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley%20and%20other%20revolvers/webleyno401small.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley%20and%20other%20revolvers/webleyno403lsmall.jpg)
(Strictly speaking, I won't need to have this revolver on my permit, as it is an "antique" in both the US and Canada. However, it has been my practice to list all the antique firearms I take into the States to avoid confusion or arguments, so I would rather have this one added.)
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Cool! Bring it with YOU to the Department of the Missouri Muster next year!
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Another prime example for your collection, RJR.
I like the still showing the wearing of the lanyard, although his kit seems too 'field worn', almost looks like an antique original.
RCJ
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As I recall, the scene that still came from was well into the movie, after the column had been slogging through the desert for a couple of weeks, with barely enough water for drinking, and none for washing. It was dirt and dusty they were trying to depict .... not wear. He would have started out all spiffy and clean, like this chap:
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/sudan10.jpg)
At least they did a pretty good job of depicting an officer's campaign uniform and kit from that era.
One of my favorite scenes from the movie is the one this still is taken from. The aerial sequence - which was actually some of the footage utilized from the original 1939 Zoltan Korda classic, if I recall correctly - did a darned good job of imparting that "Oh Sh*t! Here they come!" feeling the men formed up in square must have experienced ......
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Victorianmilitary/TFF07.jpg)
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I don't know of anyone that fires these and it will be a real treat to see one actually spewing lead, fire and smoke! What an exciting find you have there Rattlesnake-outstanding job Sir!
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Some kids get all the best toys! :D
(And now I gotta go find a DVD of the 1939 "Four Feathers" I remember staying up late one night and watching it on the late movie, what a great film!)
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So which is the official way to wear the lanyard?On the neck seems better if forced to use the pistol left handed, but I never liked wearing anything hanging on my neck. Never even wore my dog tags that way unless I HAD to...usually they were hooked on my belt and dropped in a pants pocket. Today I'll wear my ID badge hanging about anywhere on my clothes, but not on one of those neck loops. I'd opt for the way he wears it in the photo, hooked up by the shoulder strap on the coat.
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To be honest, I'm not sure if the British Army had an "official" way of wearing the pistol lanyard, but one sees it most often around the neck. It would be more common to see a whistle lanyard worn through the epaulet and under the armpit, like the chap from The Four Feathers has his ....
Having said that, I have observed that the North West Mounted Police in Canada had a rather distinctive way of wearing their revolver lanyards ..... which were quite long. Note the orientation - over the shoulder (usually the left one) and normally secured under the epaulet on that side, with the loop positioned diagonally across the chest and back and the running knot under the arm on the other side -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/nwmp1878.jpg)
This configuration shows up in photographs constantly - at any rate during the first 25 years or so after the Force was established in 1873/4. (Later, about the turn of the 20th century, one also begins to see it being worn around the neck, which eventually became standard.) Click each thumnail to enlarge -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard06.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard06.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard10.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard10.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard09.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard09.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard05.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard05.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard08.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard08.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard07.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard07.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard04.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard04.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard03.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard03.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard02.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard02.jpg) (http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/th_lanyard01.jpg) (http://s73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/?action=view¤t=lanyard01.jpg)
I have seen the odd chap wearing the lanyard over the right shoulder and under the left arm .... but am not sure if that would have been because he was left-handed ..... or perhaps was dyslexic ..... or simply preferred it that way!
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/NWMP%20carbine/Early%20Lanyard%20position/lanyard11.jpg)
At any rate, I have wondered if this orientation was adopted to avoid getting choked by your lanyard if it got hooked on a branch or the like. That might also explain why it changed at the time it did ... i.e. when horseback patrols were becoming less common.
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Could it have been to keep that side free when shouldering the carbine? So as to not catch the butt of the stock?
RCJ
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Could it have been to keep that side free when shouldering the carbine? So as to not catch the butt of the stock?
That certainly would explain why the great majority of individuals wore it so the right shoulder was the side which was "clear", with the occasional "lefty" wearing it the other way 'round ......
But it doesn't really explain why they wore the lanyard this way to start with - a lanyard around the neck hangs pretty much straight down in front, and thus wouldn't interfere with the butt of the carbine anyway .....
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Maybe it was purposeful so that if revolver lost it would always fall to the off side and not interfere with the hand in control of the reins?
RCJ
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A lanyard worn accross the shoulder (or on the shoulder) will secure the weapon and not adversely interfere with control of the horse. In brush or wooded country it could become entangled and dismount the rider but would not likely cause injury.
A lanyard worn about the neck will be less secure and a dropped weapon has a higher probability of banging into the horse. In brush or wooded country if it becomes entangled and dismounts the rider it can also be called a "hangman's noose."
If your goal is a neat presentation then around the neck is usually better. If your goal is operation use and safety then accross the shoulder will usually be better.
I have repro US M1905 and M1917 lanyards. I've compared them to originals and they are correct. I find both are a bit short and do not permit full extension of the arm while using the pistol or revolver. Others have made the same comment. I'm not sure if this was an attempt to save money, cut down on "saddle clutter," or reflected the style of pistol/revolver shooting of the day. I'm not small, but one of our recent NCC competitors was "conformed" very much like an early 20th Century trooper. Even he found the lanyard short for routine shooting.
SQQ
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The history is fascinating but wow what a nice looking antique revolver!
Hard to find those in such good condition I would think.
Nice find and procurement!
PR
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Jack
Great historical information. Outstanding Revolver, congratulations on your acquisition! Look forward to seeing you again at the Grand Muster.
I too have a some new toys that will be at the GM. Two US Army Model 1996 Colt DA Revolvers. One has paper work from Colt showing it was shipped to Springfield Armory in September 1898. In 1901 it was upgraded including a lanyard swivel and remarked as US Army Model 1901 but the original serial number identifies it as the 1896 shipped in 1898. The other US Army Model 1896 was made in 1900 and is still marked as 1896 with no lanyard swivel.
Scout
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My word, that's a pair of fine-looking revolvers, Scout! I look forward to seeing them at Muster .....
Having traded another firearm (and a cash sweetener, I must admit) for the above pictured Webley-Pryse ...... and having recently returned a defective firearm to the seller for a cash refund, I actually still had "spending money".
I have always wanted a metallic cartridge "open top" revolver, so when the opportunity presented itself at our local gun show this past weekend, I put the refund money toward a lovely new Cimarron Richards-Mason Transitional Conversion with full 8" barrel, chambered in .45 Colt, which I just picked up from the dealer today. I haven't had an opportunity to photograph my own revolver but of course it looks exactly like the one shown below.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to get this one added to my Form6NIA, so I won't be bringing it to Muster ..... ::)
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I just noticed a Webley RIC for sale on the CASCity ads...
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That looks like a pretty nice RIC revolver. (For the uninitiated, that stands for Royal Irish Constabulary .... a great many of that model were produced for commercial sale.)
I see that John (who posts on some other Boards I frequent) also has a Metropolitan Police Model revolver for sale .... although they have a pretty stubby barrel.
Some folks are under the misapprehension that the RIC Model may be in the "small, pocket-size revolver" class, but that is not the case. Here is a photo of my .455 RIC revolver alongside my repro .45 cal. 5 1/2" barreled Colt Model 1873 SA (Uberti Cattleman) -
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley%20and%20other%20revolvers/WebleyRICandColtModelP.jpg)
Also, although it is admittedly a tad confusing .... ??? .... anyone who has thought of acquiring a British revolver to play with should be aware that the .450 (Adams, Boxer, Eley, etc.) the .476 (Enfield, Eley, etc.), and the .455 (Webley, etc.) British handgun cartridges are all in fact .455 caliber!
Thus ammunition for any of them can be loaded in the same cases, which are readily available nowadays - in particular the ,455 Mark II cases currently made by Hornady. Although the cases may be a wee bit long for some ".450" chambers, they can be length-trimmed of course. The Mark II .455 case is about 1/10" shorter than the .476 and .455 MkI case (both of which are in fact the same length) but is entirely shootable in revolvers marked as being chambered for the latter two cartridges. (A slightly shorter case was used for the .455 MkII because it was found to work a bit better with the cordite propellant which replaced the original black powder in the Mk I.) Economical .455 reloading dies are made by Lee .... which is what I use.
Here are some case diagrams and specifications to compare:
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley%20and%20other%20revolvers/wbstryc.jpg)
(http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i219/GrantRCanada/Webley%20and%20other%20revolvers/wbstryd.jpg)