Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => The Powder Room - CAS reloading => Topic started by: Charlie Bowdre on October 19, 2017, 08:30:11 PM
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Guys , this is a long post so I ask for two things
1. HELP
2. Your indulgence
I am shooting a pair of 1872 Uberti Cimarron Open Tops , chambered in 45 Schofield
In March of this year I loaded up several hundred rounds with 4.5 grains of Trail Boss which I had in my Dillon reservoir
The first chance I had to use them was this past week . At the range I was getting this problem
I would fire a few rounds and get a squib , Fire a few more ..more squibs Cleared the bullet , most of which never left the barrel , some just barely..
Went home weighed over 200 rounds ...all consistent. Pulled a few , lots of powder. ??
Back to the range today ,same problem.
Another shooter questioned my loads in an effort to assist . I did tell him I had left the powder sitting in a clear plastic Dillon powder charger which I use on my 650 Dillon. This particular load of powder may have been in the reservoir for 3 to months He suggested it may have "gone bad" seemed like the powder was not being completely burned off??
At the worst I have a projected to do this winter ...pull the remainder of the several hundred rounds I rolled!
Anyone ever hear of this before ? Does Trail Boss or any powder "go bad" if left exposed to light or humidity?
I'm not only stupid but really confused .
If I have not bored you to tears I would appreciate any replies here or by PM
Sincerely
Dutchie
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I have heard of smokeless powder reacting chemically to the plastic of powder hoppers resulting in the deterioration of the powder-breaking down the chemical makeup of the powder. Can't give the actual process off the top of my head, but have always read and heard not to store powder in powder measure. Did the color of your power hopper change at all. I've heard of powder granules sticking to the sides of the interior, sometimes actually bonding to the plastic. If this happened to your Trail Boss, I'd say the whole lot is suspect and is unsafe and not reliable. I dump powder back in the can as soon as I'm done reloading, even if I plan on reloading the next day.
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Ts for the reply.
I did not notice any change to the hopper. I am going to make sure I return any powder to the original container from now on . This has me puzzeled ..but then again that doesen't take much1
Cheers
Dutchie
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I have heard of smokeless powder reacting chemically to the plastic of powder hoppers resulting in the deterioration of the powder-breaking down the chemical makeup of the powder. Can't give the actual process off the top of my head, but have always read and heard not to store powder in powder measure. Did the color of your power hopper change at all. I've heard of powder granules sticking to the sides of the interior, sometimes actually bonding to the plastic. If this happened to your Trail Boss, I'd say the whole lot is suspect and is unsafe and not reliable. I dump powder back in the can as soon as I'm done reloading, even if I plan on reloading the next day.
I lost a can of IMI ball powder many years ago thru poor storage - it didnt look different but was doing what Dutchy describes - inconsistent half and quarter throttle loads - partial burning - lots of residue - been real careful ever since - humidity is the biggest killer I think - follow Crow Chokers system - put it back in its can - close the can - store in a cool dry place. If the powder had a few years on it before you bought it would not help either.
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Now that you mentioned it , there was a bit of unburned powder on the table beside where I was shooting
Thanks
Dutchie
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I shoot pounds of TB a month loading 44-40; 38-40; 45 Cowboy Special and 38 Special. I always leave it in the the LEE 1000 powder hopper. But not for a moth as I use it pretty fast. Also, my reloading room humidity is kept at 50%. Never ever had a squib load and I’ve fired over 10,000 rounds easily.
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I shoot pounds of TB a month loading 44-40; 38-40; 45 Cowboy Special and 38 Special. I always leave it in the the LEE 1000 powder hopper. But not for a moth as I use it pretty fast. Also, my reloading room humidity is kept at 50%. Never ever had a squib load and I’ve fired over 10,000 rounds easily.
movin it through the system that quick it dont have time to deteriorate - you always gonna be shootin fresh powder at that rate !! some others of us are not so enthusiastic, lucky, dedicated, flush wid money
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Ah Ha!!
If your not in a very climate controlled environment, leaving powder in your measure for any length of time is a NO NO NO NO. Smokeless powder is very .. read .. VERY .. susceptible to moisture. If you happen to live in a somewhat humid climate, you powder will absorb the moisture out of the atmosphere (stuff you breathe) and rapidly become fertilizer.
Additionally, atmospheric moisture settles DOWN as in the Dew on your lawn in the morning. As the evening cools, lower elevations such as a basement increase in humidity. Your gunpowder will begin to suck up that moisture very rapidly. Any gunpowder you leave in your hopper more than a day or two is suspect. Makes good fertilizer.
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Hi Dutchy,
Before going to the dark side I shot a lot of Trail Boss and had a similar problem. What the problem with TB is it falls through the powder measure like snow ( something we don't have here in central Texas, but I saw one time) very slowly because it is so fluffy and clumpy.
My method is to run the ram (Dillon 550B) up to drop powder, count a couple of Mississippi's for the stuff to fall and continue.
I would suggest you run a few cases checking powder amount per pause and find the rhythm. My rate is to run the ram up, pick up the next case and push down the ram to prime.
In my 550B I use the big powder bar it seems to work better with that fluffy powder.
YMMV but it worked for me.
Good luck
Yr' Obt' Svt'
Bunk
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Thanks Pards for all your comments.
I have to say at first I was a little worried about posting . I have been on some sites where a post like mine would have won you a royal reaming
One thing I have to note is that as always this Form provides a good open discussion without any sarcasm and the usual smarta@@ comments
I think it is a combination of long term improper storage ,combined with moisture in the loading area. Appreciate the replies .
All on me ::)
Thank you
Dutchy
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Whoops!! A minor correction to your impression there Dutchy. I am always (almost always) a smarta$$. I can't help it. It's the voices in my head you understand. I also believe an honest question deserves and honest answer. As do most of us whom lurk here. Although there is good possibility I'll deliver an honest answer with a modicum humor. Some call it sarcasm (who?? Me??? Nah!!!). And:
Yes. Improper storage (in the hopper is NOT storage) combines with moisture to create "Fertilizer). I'll bet however, after you pull all those bullets, you remember and don't do it again ;D
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ha going o be a long winter ;D
Cheers
Dutchie
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For what it's worth, I shoot Trail Boss exclusively. I hand dipper all my loads out of a ceramic dish which I have filled from the plastic bulk 5lb. jug. 50 rounds at a crack and then use a single stage.
Been working on the same jug for the last three years. After a session of re-loading the remaining powder goes back into the jug.
No squib problems, and so far powder is still good.
RCJ
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That's "Dinosaur" River City John ...... ahem. (snicker snicker) ;D
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I tried a can of Trail Boss and didn't like it. I prefer the Dot (red dot, clays, clay dot) powders for the majority of my reloading. I also leave the powder in my Dillon powder measure hoppers all the time. The caps of the Dillon measures fit very tight and I plug up the little hole too. But my reloading room is located IN my house, a 10x10 kitchen add on I built years ago so it is the same temp and humidity as the house and I run ac or heat 24-7. I wouldn't even try to set up a reloading area out in my shop, way too humid here in NC. Hope you figure out the problem, having to pull bullets is a pita, (I was given a 5 gal bucket of military ammunition that had been through a flood) it's a lot more fun to 'pull' them with your Colt.
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That's "Dinosaur" River City John ...... ahem. (snicker snicker) ;D
(humming to myself: "Everybody move, get on the floor, everybody do the Dinosaur!) ;D
RCJ
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Love it , seems like the older I get the more fun I have. Now don't have it as often ... I should say I have shot TB exclusively for over 10 years , never had a problem . That's why this is so perplexing . One good thing is that I have heard from a lot of great guys and I thank you all
Now I have to get into my gun room and start pulling rounds. ::)
Cheers
Dutchie
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It occurred to me that you might have had a batch of wet brass, depending upon how it was cleaned.
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Good point I don’t normally wash my brass but to be honest it has been a while since I loaded these up. As well as the fact that I sometimes have troubles joe remembering my socks ......I don’t remember if these rounds were just tumbled or not
Thanks
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I have three powder measures on my bench and keep powder in them 24/7 day in, day out for the last 10 years. Same with two MEC shotshell loaders, which have had the same powders in them for years, only occasionally topped off. I’ve NEVER had powder “go bad”. My reloading setup is in an outbuilding. Unless you don’t cap the powder reservoir I think it’d be very difficult to have a meaningful amount of moisture get in the powder measure. The only time I’ve ever had squib loads was in shotgun shells. I figured out it was due to my using a powder baffle in an effort to get more consistent powder drops.
I’d bet the farm your problem has to do with a combination of the large flake, Cheerio-shaped powder and a progressive loader. About the only way to know for sure is to weigh loaded rounds and look for those that are markedly lighter than most, then pull them down. That may be difficult too since your powder charge is relatively light, but for sure a place to start.
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Yeah I’m still confused as to what happened here I weighed the rounds and did find a lot that were 3.2 to 3.5 grains of Trail Boss instead of the 4.5 that I was supposed to be loading ,this leads me to believe there was a problem with the powder measure on the Dillon set up So I was dropping 4.5 in most then for some reason 3.2 to 3.5
Would the smaller loads be enough to cause the squibs.?
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Greeings My Good Dutchy
Yeah I’m still confused as to what happened here I weighed the rounds and did find a lot that were 3.2 to 3.5 grains of Trail Boss instead of the 4.5 that I was supposed to be loading ,this leads me to believe there was a problem with the powder measure on the Dillon set up So I was dropping 4.5 in most then for some reason 3.2 to 3.5
Would the smaller loads be enough to cause the squibs.?
That would do it.
Minimum for trailboss in .45 Sch and 200 gr bullet is 4.0 grains. Trailboss does not do well with reduced loads and
3.2 to 3.5 gr sounds too low.
yhs
prof marvel
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I think we are closing in on the rascal. Well done friends
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I have three powder measures on my bench and keep powder in them 24/7 day in, day out for the last 10 years. Same with two MEC shotshell loaders, which have had the same powders in them for years, only occasionally topped off. Ive NEVER had powder go bad.
After you dropped the hammer on your hogleg dutchy to cause ignition to your Trail Boss powder, not having enough of the powder to produce enough gas causing your 'squibs' MAY have been at fault, but what caused your rig to drop various volumes of powder. I don't care if some reloaders have never had any problem. They're lucky reloaders.
Every manufacturer of reloading equipment (which includes powder measures) say in their instructional manuals to remove powder from the hopper after a reloading session. I looked up via computer, downloaded, and read every major reloading equipment manufacturers do's and don'ts about the subject before posting this so I could post and say what they are saying. Not only will the right chemical composition of a powder react to the right plastic causing deterioration of the powder, but so will exposure to light, as will humidity. They all point this out as do the manufacturers of powder--google some of them and read, it's there. If you had that Trail Boss in your plastic hopper for up to three months of your Canadian environment, it had to pick up some moisture. Couple that with any light shining on it if that was a factor, along with any reaction to the plastic if any. Could have just been one factor, maybe two working along side with each other. Who knows. Whatever, change in the chemical composition, maybe just enough moisture to cause a little clumping of the powder causing some of your loads not to receive your preset powder volume droppings (adjusted to wanted grains). I'd say whatever caused it, made a mess of a lot of your efforts and it wasn't worth it to have left the powder in the hopper.
I went online also and reviewed a few firearms forums (googled 'leaving powder in powder hoppers') and the vast majority and very high percentage of posters/reloaders said they dump the powder out after finishing a loading session. Some admitted if they planned on reloading later in the day or the next day, they'd leave it, but not for any length of time. Besides concerns for powder deterioration, safety was also a major reason. Reasons given ranged from 'kids' getting at it, lessen any fire hazards, forgetting what powder was in hopper, etc. Your choice dutchy or anybody else, some can say they leave in all the time and never had problems, but ya have to color that "yet'. How long does it take to dump the powder out? You can open up the baffle all the way and a few cranks of the handle will do the job or if a person has a bench mounted separate hopper, you can either open up the baffle or loosen the hopper and via funnel pour it back in the can. By doing one of the procedures, it would have taken a whole lot less time than pulling bullets and a lot less time writing on this forum wondering why there were squibs. Take care.
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My stupid I guess. Sorry to have been the cause of anyone here wasting time on my behalf. The several points I did pick up were to dump my powder and also ensure the measure is dropping correctly. Thanks again for your comments
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Not only will the right chemical composition of a powder react to the right plastic causing deterioration of the powder, but so will exposure to light, as will humidity.
So you're saying powder will deteriorate in a plastic hopper/powder measure, but not in the plastic container in which it was shipped???
My experience tells me different and there's no "lucky" about it. As a matter of fact, in 40 or so years of handloading the ONLY powder I've ever had go bad was IMR and Winchester in its metal containers and Hodgdon in its cardboard containers.
My stupid I guess. Sorry to have been the cause of anyone here wasting time on my behalf. The several points I did pick up were to dump my powder and also ensure the measure is dropping correctly. Thanks again for your comments
The only stupid is not asking the question!
Here's a suggestion: take a piece of notebook paper and dump a little pile of Trail Boss on it and next to that dump a little pile of some other common pistol powder such as WW-231, Clays, etc. Does one look like it might meter better than the other? Does one look like it'd be less likely to hang up or bridge? (Hint- that be the powder(s) that doesn't look like little pieces of breakfast cereal)
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So you're saying powder will deteriorate in a plastic hopper/powder measure, but not in the plastic container in which it was shipped???
My experience tells me different and there's no "lucky" about it. As a matter of fact, in 40 or so years of handloading the ONLY powder I've ever had go bad was IMR and Winchester in its metal containers and Hodgdon in its cardboard containers.
I take Crow Chokers side here - might not be the cause BUT you make an unfair comparison - how many plastic containers that powder is shipped in can ya see through and would break if ya dropped em on the floor ----????? different plastic (and there are many) exposure to light can/could be a factor - most of the plastic powder containers I see are black softish - have seen some measure hoppers that are see through - helps me know whether its full or empty that does - my measure hopper has a lid that sits on - would not seal in a pink fit - moisture could get in there - my powder containers have screw on water tight lids - different - unfair comparison whether or not u or us are right .... I dont like trail boss so have never used it so that dont count eh. Blame the trail boss plus automatic press - yeah that works for me - but cant discount that something coulda sent the powder off - Soooo Dutchys misfortune has been a wakeup call for all of us to lift our game around powder - not a bad thing and I dont think he should feel at all bad about that. Hes took one for the team.
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LOL
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Not only will the right chemical composition of a powder react to the right plastic causing deterioration of the powder, but so will exposure to light, as will humidity.
So you're saying powder will deteriorate in a plastic hopper/powder measure, but not in the plastic container in which it was shipped???
Cholla Hill: You're overlooking the key word in my sentence, "right". Plastics come in all forms of composition, some reacting to different solids/liquids, while not to others. Why can you put/store gasoline in a plastic gas can while that same gasoline in another plastic container not formulated for gasoline and the gas will eat right through the container. Same goes for gunpowder. Now I did read in the information I looked up regarding various powder hoppers made by reloading outfits that the hard plastic powder hoppers made today differ than those made in the years before. No date of change given, but all manufacturers and the powder companies all still say not to use the powder hopper as a storage facility, stating that some powders, depending on their composition will react at some point.
I bought an older Lyman orange #55 powder measure at a outdoor swap meet that had a line about 2/3 up from the bottom. The plastic below that line was discolored and there was small powder size dents all over inside the discolored plastic area. Someone had stored powder in the measure to long. Polishing with fine sandpaper and steel wool cleaned it up. Cholla, when I started reloading for metallic cartridges 41 years, 9 months ago (doesn't count years using a Lee handloader for 12 guage), everything I read then said not to store powder in a powder measure due to plastic/powder reaction, light deterioration, and the possibility of the powder sucking up moisture from humidity in the air, not to mention the safety aspect of the whole process.
Reloading like everything else is governed by rules, break them, ignore them, try to bend them, will always result in Murphy's Law taking affect. Ya, I say you've been 'lucky', glad you have been, but who's to say that somewhere in your 40 years of doing it 'your way' that there hasn't been some powder not meeting its full potential due to some deterioration along the way. Besides, how long does it take to empty that 'hopper'. Just sayin! No intention or desire to get into a online post 'war' with ya, not going to. Safe reloadin' and shootin' to ya and everyone. CC
Hey dutchy, no 'sweat' on asking questions or for help, we all need to. This forum has been pretty quiet lately, in fact downright dead. Needed some postin exercise anyway. ;D
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You guys are right. In fact as well as the answers to my delima I have gleaned several things about the powder aspect of my approach. Over the years I have become lax and in fact lazy about my procedure. This has been a wake up for me. I appreciate all the opinions given. As we know we are free to accept whichever one we choose. In future I plan to
1. Carefully inspect each one of my brass cartridges
2. Empty my powder back onto its original container after each use
3. Go back to my single stage press for reloading
As I m not shooting competition anymore I have drastically reduced my annual needs. Don’t get me wrong I loved my Dillon 650 but I realize how much I did enjoy the pleasure in the slow reliability of one step at a time reloading. I still recall the look on my wife’s face as I showed her what I thought was a perfectly turned out 45 Colt round. I’m sure she did and still does think I’m nuts . As will you 🤓
This thread has been a great social as well as informative process. Thanks to you all
Cheers
Dutchy
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I shoot pounds of TB a month loading 44-40; 38-40; 45 Cowboy Special and 38 Special. I always leave it in the the LEE 1000 powder hopper. But not for a moth as I use it pretty fast. Also, my reloading room humidity is kept at 50%. Never ever had a squib load and I’ve fired over 10,000 rounds easily.
I guess have shot 10,000 easily if you shoot pounds a month considering a pound of trail boss loads around 1200 rounds of the larger cartridges you listed.
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I have found static cling to be a problem with Trail Boss and plastic hoppers. I had lots of problems with Trail Boss in .38 special. I now use a dipper along with max Trail Boss to the case load and the squibs stopped. I have read that static cling is a problem with Trail Boss from another forum.
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Cholla Hill: You're overlooking the key word in my sentence, "right". Plastics come in all forms of composition, some reacting to different solids/liquids, while not to others. Why can you put/store gasoline in a plastic gas can while that same gasoline in another plastic container not formulated for gasoline and the gas will eat right through the container. Same goes for gunpowder. Now I did read in the information I looked up regarding various powder hoppers made by reloading outfits that the hard plastic powder hoppers made today differ than those made in the years before. No date of change given, but all manufacturers and the powder companies all still say not to use the powder hopper as a storage facility, stating that some powders, depending on their composition will react at some point.
I bought an older Lyman orange #55 powder measure at a outdoor swap meet that had a line about 2/3 up from the bottom. The plastic below that line was discolored and there was small powder size dents all over inside the discolored plastic area. Someone had stored powder in the measure to long. Polishing with fine sandpaper and steel wool cleaned it up. Cholla, when I started reloading for metallic cartridges 41 years, 9 months ago (doesn't count years using a Lee handloader for 12 guage), everything I read then said not to store powder in a powder measure due to plastic/powder reaction, light deterioration, and the possibility of the powder sucking up moisture from humidity in the air, not to mention the safety aspect of the whole process.
Reloading like everything else is governed by rules, break them, ignore them, try to bend them, will always result in Murphy's Law taking affect. Ya, I say you've been 'lucky', glad you have been, but who's to say that somewhere in your 40 years of doing it 'your way' that there hasn't been some powder not meeting its full potential due to some deterioration along the way. Besides, how long does it take to empty that 'hopper'. Just sayin! No intention or desire to get into a online post 'war' with ya, not going to. Safe reloadin' and shootin' to ya and everyone. CC
Hey dutchy, no 'sweat' on asking questions or for help, we all need to. This forum has been pretty quiet lately, in fact downright dead. Needed some postin exercise anyway. ;D
All of them? Well, no they don't.
My most recent Hornady manual states: "....it can be dangerous to leave powder in your powder measure, not because anything will happen to it but because it may be mistakenly identified at some later time."
My Lyman 49th Edition (pp.30) goes in to quite a bit of detail on the use of powder and powder measures, but makes no mention whatsoever about the length of time the powder should or should not be left in the measure.
Likewise, the Smokeless Powder Properties and Storage (http://"http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_200-Smokeless_Powder.pdf") make no mention of leaving powder in powder measures.
I think it's obvious that some companies recommend against it, others don't.
If that's what works for you and makes you feel comfortable, then I support you. But there's no need to start yet another internet, nail-biting, the-sky-is-falling-and-you're-all-going-to-die dramafest over the subject. I think it's been established that the powder metered poorly and thereby lead varying charges. a simple glance at the physical characteristics of the powder would provide a pretty good clue as to why it might have metered poorly.
CHT
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All of them? Well, no they don't.
My most recent Hornady manual states: "....it can be dangerous to leave powder in your powder measure, not because anything will happen to it but because it may be mistakenly identified at some later time."
My Lyman 49th Edition (pp.30) goes in to quite a bit of detail on the use of powder and powder measures, but makes no mention whatsoever about the length of time the powder should or should not be left in the measure.
Likewise, the Smokeless Powder Properties and Storage (http://"http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_200-Smokeless_Powder.pdf") make no mention of leaving powder in powder measures.
CHT you are arguing that because you did it and it worked then its ok ? yeah that might work or it might not and there are always varying degrees of everything -
Heres IMR --"Store in a cool dry place"
"dont keep more powder in an open container than you need"
not much of a warning - but ----1) your powder measure hopper is an open container or close - sure aint watertight unless they changed the design recently
2) any storage shed, garage, basement anyplace that gets more than 15 inches of rain per year - has at least part of the year when it is not a dry place (humidity over 40% ???) ---- we have a swamp cooler at our house - all summer it is not a dry place!
Maybe I am oversensitive - I make high quality blackpowder - and a big part of that is using dry ingredients and keeping it dry.
Dutchys problem probably was TB clumping in the auto measure --but why encourage bad habits just because its been got away with ?? - and for the average cowboy - leaving powder in the measure is a bad habit for numerous reasons.
I think it's obvious that some companies recommend against it, others don't.
If that's what works for you and makes you feel comfortable, then I support you. But there's no need to start yet another internet, nail-biting, the-sky-is-falling-and-you're-all-going-to-die dramafest over the subject. I think it's been established that the powder metered poorly and thereby lead varying charges. a simple glance at the physical characteristics of the powder would provide a pretty good clue as to why it might have metered poorly.
CHT