Author Topic: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster  (Read 7213 times)

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #120 on: February 04, 2021, 05:02:41 PM »
Ed:  There is a chap out there somewhere in the US who machines "spacer rings" to fit the rear of the cyliner on "shaved" Webley revolvers, so they can be used with .455 rounds, instead of having to mess with .45ACP in moon clips or having to use .45AR cases. 

If I recall correctly, he gets customers to give him the exact measurementrs of their cylinder, "cylinder ratchet boss" and the cylinder gap, so he can "custom machine" each ring to optimum thickness and fit.  In view of the odd cylinder gap you seem to have, I wonder if such an expedient might be a practical solution for you to shoot this piece without problems.  I'd have to track down more information on the device ... my impression is that a center hole drops into place over the ratchet boss on the rear of the cylinder and, with the six holes aligned with the chambers you load as normal ... i.e. I don't think any permanent alteration to the revolver is necessary ... 

As I think it through, it must come away with the empty cases as you eject them, and then get replaced for the next loading.  Sort of a custom full moon clip to space your .455 cases in the right position ...
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #121 on: February 04, 2021, 05:14:11 PM »
Found this: http://knoppix.net/store/-455-Webley-Conversion-Headspacing-Rings_331593072044.html

And this:http://www.partsforantiqueguns.com/webleymarkvI.html

And here's a guy who machined such a spacer sytem in two parts - a "cylinder spacer" and matching "extractor spacer" which he soldered in place  ... though I don't imagine you'd want to do something like that with this revolver! - https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/jqrjpd/milsurp_monday_a_deshaved_webley_mark_v/
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #122 on: February 04, 2021, 05:16:29 PM »
Final thought ... what about a thin shim washer at the front of the cylinder to set it back a smidge?  (Might result in an excessive front cylnder gap, I suppose ...)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #123 on: February 04, 2021, 05:23:37 PM »


It sounds like the cylinder length varies or wobbles?
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Offline pony express

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #124 on: February 04, 2021, 06:23:29 PM »
Perhaps it was originally made in .45 Colt, shipped to Canada as such, but sometime later someone put a 1917 .45 ACP cylinder in it?

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #125 on: Today at 01:40:20 AM »

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #125 on: February 04, 2021, 06:51:27 PM »
How does the firing pin look? 

I wonder if someone did just what Pony Express said.  Repaired/restored the gun.  New cylinder, fix the D&T holes etc.  Just a thought.
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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #126 on: February 04, 2021, 06:55:42 PM »
Thanks for the links Rattlesnake.  Smoke, there’s no wobble, .45 colt/Schofield will not chamber, .455 and 45acp will. I believe what has happened is that the revolver had a replacement .455 cylinder installed or was originally shipped with a .455 cylinder.  My reference and the bbl caliber implies that it should be a .45colt. The finish is too much of a match on the bbl, cylinder, crane and frame and there is no evidence of a reblue. After it was retired from RCMP service the civilian owner couldn’t find .455 and didn’t want to shave the rear of the cylinder or recut the chambers to .45colt so he removed a little from the front end and modified the ejector to make 45acp/AR fit into the gun. The cylinder has no endshake when locked in the frame and all 6 chambers are 100% locked up tight when cycled. There IS play when the cylinder is open between the cylinder and cylinder stop on the frame. Today I trimmed a few .44-40 brass to .875 after expanding them to .450  and have successfully reloaded them several times. I have also tried just dropping .45acp handloads into the chambers without a moonclip and firing them. I shot 50 rds, about 5 out of every 6 fell out of the cylinder without any help. A mystery. Too bad it cant talk.
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Offline Baltimore Ed

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #127 on: February 04, 2021, 11:28:20 PM »
Came across this and am thinking this is how the cylinder got moved forward without damaging the rear of the cylinder or altering the .455 chambers.  A 45acp 1917 ejector star was fit to the cylinder and ejector rod and trimmed a bit. The star on my revolver is the only part that is noticeably different.  There’s only .012 inch oal difference between the Mk1 Webley brass and a 45acp case. The difference is the .050 autorim thickness.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #128 on: February 05, 2021, 05:29:36 PM »
Question for Col. Drydock ... 

Way back in this thread you confirmed that my .455-chambered Spanish clones of the S&W DA Frontier revolver would be acceptable substitutes for my NWMP persona. 

What I am now seeking to confirm is whether a modern reproduction break-action S&W revolver would also be acceptable - I have in mind a Uberti Schofield (chambered in .45 Colt) which I may have an opportunity to acquire. 

As far as specific 19th century use of S&W revolvers by the NWMP goes (beyond the .38 revolvers already mentioned and discussed) as a partial solution to the problem the Force had with their initial supply of .450 Adams revolvers, they are known to have acquired, late in 1874, thirty S&W "Old Model Russian" revolvers (chambered in .44 Russian) from the M.W. Robinson Company in New York, shipped to them via Fort Benton, M.T.   

What I have a possible opportunity to get is a 7"-barreled Uberti Schofield ... although "cosmetically" different from the Russian Model, I understand that "functionally" they are pretty much the same.  I would hope that this functional similarity, together with the primary GAF emphasis on the correct rifle for one's impression, would make it acceptable.

I must admit that cabin fever is definitely setting in,in view of my serious consideration of acquiring yet another pistol ... especially one as pricey as a Uberti top-break!  (It may only be feasible for me at this time if they will take a trade-in or two as part of the transaction ...)

I have always hankered after a S&W top-break clone, although have been put off until now by the cost and also by reported problems with some of them (although that was more with the less expensive ASM revolvers, I gather.)  At any rate, I am back to drooling over the possibility ....

Ironically, in his annual report for 1875, the NWMP Commissioner reprted that the Smith & Wessons were "very likely to get out of order and the severe cold is apt to snap the extractor spring."   

At least I can be reasonably confident that "severe cold" is a highly unlikely meteorological condition at a Muster ...   ;)
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #129 on: February 05, 2021, 05:46:02 PM »
RsJ...did you ever get that frock? 
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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #130 on: Today at 01:40:20 AM »

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2021, 10:19:44 PM »
Smoke,

If you mean the stable jacket ... yes, I did.

I haven't posted any pictures of it yet, because when it arrived, I decided I did not like the spacing and position of the front closure buttons and buttonholes, so I started to alter it and it still languishes in an unfinished state.

When I ordered it, I had taken a color photo from online (top left in the attached composite) and "photoshopped" it into a mock-up of what I wanted - removed pockets, lowered the height of the collar, reduced the amount of "cutaway" at lower front, and revised color - as seen at lower left.  What I received was very close to that mock-up image, but something was bothering me about that front button placement, so I went back and looked at my various images.  I realized then that I also should have revised the positioning of the front closure buttons in my mock-up image so that, while remaining evenly spaced, the lower button would be much closer to the lower edge. The four details cropped from period photos will show the type of spacing I should have represented in my mock-up.   I will admit that they quite faithfully produced a jacket very much like my mock-up image, although they had positioned the front button group even higher above the lower edge than in the mock-up.  The result was a look which was shouting "wrong" to me, and crying out for correction.



As it turned out, I had either been too generous with my measurements, or they over-performed on my request to make the jacket fairly loose rather than a snug fit - or a combination of both factors - because the jacket as received was so "roomy" that I can actually take the two front edges back far enough to eliminate the buttonholes, and then re-space them the way I think they should be ...

It is still a work in progress, however ... I am hand-sewing it, and so far only have the buttonhole side cut back past the buttonholes and re-seamed.  Still need to do the other side, plus re-attach the standing collar (which I had to take off to accomplish all this) and then will have to position and make the buttonholes ...
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #131 on: February 05, 2021, 10:37:31 PM »
Further to that reply, although I neglected to take a photo of the jacket as received before I started altering it, I would say the button spacing and positioning on it were something like this - quite close to the conceptual image i had sent them, but with the button grouping spaced even a little higher than the admittedly too-high positioning in my mock-up. 



The result of that compounded error just looked too much like a poorly proportioned tunic, rather than a "buttoned almost to the bottom" jacket like the originals ...
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline DeaconKC

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #132 on: February 05, 2021, 10:48:09 PM »
RSJ, my dear Sir!
I have one of the Uberti Schofields in .45 Colt and run it as my favorite gun in my CAS shooting. It has run flawlessly, I clean it after every match and it delivers excellent accuracy. Mine is the 7" barreled version. I am on the lookout to replace the Vaquero hanging on my other hip as soon as I can, that's how much I like them.
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Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #133 on: February 06, 2021, 09:07:32 AM »
RsJ....You are far more brave or adventuresome than I am.  That is always been my biggest fear with ordering from an Indian/Chinese vendor.  The wrong size.  I have heard too many horror stories over the years from reenactors.  US sizes have not translated well.  Admittedly they were mostly Chinese vendors although some Italian reenactors had a very bad time with one of the large Indian vendors.

Did you order in inches or that blasphemous metric system?

Apart from sizing, how do you find the quality of the stable jacket?

Have you ordered other things from this vendor?

I have debated ordering a pair of 1902 SD trousers from Replicators via their Amazon store.  $50 cheaper than WPG and Amazon offers some protection.
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Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #134 on: February 06, 2021, 05:37:34 PM »
RSJ, my dear Sir!
I have one of the Uberti Schofields in .45 Colt and run it as my favorite gun in my CAS shooting.

Deacon ...

Thank you for those encouraging words! 

I read at least one "tale of woe" from someone with a Uberti Schofield, who seems to have gotten a lemon ... a "Monday morning" piece, or something of that sort.   Another chap had a recurring problem, but the second time they authorized him to send it back they replaced it completely, which was encouraging ...

Most of the comments I have seen, however, have been quite positive.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline RattlesnakeJack

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #135 on: February 06, 2021, 06:17:03 PM »
Smoke,

I have dealt with Replicaters (their rather "individualized" spelling) for quite a few years, and virtually all of my uniforms were made by them.  I don't know about their Amazon store (... didn't even realize they have one, in fact ...) but dealing with them directly (via their website and e-mail) as I have always done, you can communicate back and forth as much as necessary to clarify any issues or concerns before ordering, and you then send them your necessary measurements noted on a size chart (... looks to me to be USN for Dress Whites ...) and they make it to those measurements.  So far all of my orders have fit fine, according to the measurements I sent.  They do stress details like measuring your waist at the bellybutton (for both tunics and pants) so you ignore such particulars at your peril.

That happened to one of the members of my Artillery Detachment, when we ordered new tunics a couple of years ago.  I gave everybody a copy of the size chart, and stressed that these should be actual measurements, taken at the body location/as instructed on the size chart.  One know-it-all (a retired teacher, which I am sure is a factor) gave his waist measurement as the size of blue jeans he wears!  Keep in mind he wrote this on a tunic size chart! You guessed it .... being someone with a prominent beer belly who cinches his jeans up below it (... and thus  gleefully able to say "I still wear size xx waist!" ...) when the tunics arrived they all fit nicely except his, which did not come even close to buttoning over his paunch. I immediatley said: "You gave me the pants waist size you wear, didn't you!" and he admitted he had done that, but it still took a bit of explaining to get him to understand why that was not a good idea for a tunic!  Thankfully, there was sufficient seam allowance that it could be let out to fit him.

Quality of the stable jacket is quite good, as has been everything I have gotten from them. 

You can provide measurements in inches or metric, whichever you prefer.
Rattlesnake Jack Robson, Scout, Rocky Mountain Rangers, North West Canada, 1885
Major John M. Robson, Royal Scots of Canada, 1883-1901
Sgt. John Robson, Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, 1885
Bvt. Col, Commanding International Dept. and Div.  of Canada, Grand Army of the Frontier

Offline smoke

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Re: Possible NWMP Uniform and Kit at 2020 National Muster
« Reply #136 on: February 07, 2021, 10:18:51 AM »
RsJ...thanks for the info and the tips on how not to screw it up.

His website looks to be helpful.  I actually had not been to it and was relying on what he listed for sale elsewhere.  Looks like I will be ordering some pants tomorrow.
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