Ammo strap for pistol belt

[Cheyenne Logan]

Anybody have any references to US Army use of a strap with cartridge loops on the pistol or prairie belt?  T thought I had seen this type of ammo carrier before but now can't find it......of course I am in stage four of CRS....  

[1961MJS]

Hi
David Carrico carries a Pistol Pendant Loop in black leather with Ties on the ends.  Neither Blockade Runner nor C&C Sutlery carry anything close.
Later

[Pitspitr]

Hello Col. Logan!
I don't remember ever seeing this type of cartridge strap like this. I have a few good reference books on the cartridge belts of the US Army and I'll check them when I get home

[Major 2]

I don't recall seeing that design, in any Military Equipage
 Books, I have fair number of reference books.
Not to say, some post made by a Saddler perhaps.

I think a Bandoleer or fair Christian belt far more likely.

[Cheyenne Logan]

I'd swear I've seen it before, it wasn't issue kit, it was put together by saddler......I'll keep looking....neat piece.

[Cheyenne Logan]

Not the reference I was looking for, but a decent picture of the strap used with a Fairweather Christian belt

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-collection-of-vintage-military-equipment-used-by-the-7th-cavalry-73925263.html

[Pitspitr]

Nope.
I looked in several of my reference books, including one printed by the Army, and the only issue item I could find that was remotely similar was the 1874 Hazen Cartridge Carrier for 45/70. What Price Glory, S&S, and Coon Creek sell reproductions.

https://www.jamesmountainantiques.com/product/benicia-arsenal-hazen-loops-for-45-70-cartridges/

But as you said that's not to say that somebody didn't make up something like it to use on campaign.

[Hair Trigger Jim]

Not the reference I was looking for, but a decent picture of the strap used with a Fairweather Christian belt

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-collection-of-vintage-military-equipment-used-by-the-7th-cavalry-73925263.html

At the very least, the handgun is a reproduction (with the thumb screw for the cylinder pin) and the rest of the stuff is probably modern-made as well (based on that and the condition).  So I don't know if that's an example of what the 7th Cavalry used, so much as an example of what one person thinks he would have done if he'd lived back then and needed to come up with a way to carry two types of cartridges.  We have no idea if he had any historical reference for his idea.

[St. George]

More like someone in SASS decided he needed something vaguely military-looking to help with his times and found someone to make it.

Scouts Out!

[Abilene]

I think everything in that photo is reproductions.  But the fact that somebody made the cartridge holder for that reason sure makes you think that there may have been a historical version of it, especially if Cheyenne has seen another pic somewhere else (unless the other picture he saw was this same piece and only one has ever been made.    )

[Tascosa Joe]

+1 for Abilene

[Cheyenne Logan]

no, the picture I posted was for reference....and yes it's all repro stuff, never said otherwise.....I do believe it was made by a unit saddler, not through the Quartermaster.

[Cheyenne Logan]

Still looking for more documentation.....have a couple of books on the way that may help, but it appears this strap for pistol cartridges was common to the 7th US Cavalry.....pictures are from a display at the LBH museum....yes it would have been saddler made and not issue, but appears to have been used in conjunction with the FWC belt, and possibly the Prairie belt.....would have been a good way to have pistol cartridges handy without digging in your pocket or a pouch.

[Cheyenne Logan]

(unless the other picture he saw was this same piece and only one has ever been made.    )

No, I hadn't seen that picture before, and yes I'm aware it's all reproduction.....the Uberti Charcoal blue revolver just slaps you in the face! 

I've been told it was common in the 7th early on and was fabricated bu their saddler........search continues.....

[smoke]

I believe that I have seen pics/references to an original unit/saddler made piece like that.  I will dig out my references.

[Trailrider]

None of my considerable references on Indian War Period military leather show anything like this as an issue or even experimental item. That does NOT mean that a company saddler couldn't have made one or more for the troops in his unit. Keep in mind, however, that except for the times when the 7th was out on a particular campaign, including the BH&Y Expedition of 1876, individual companies were based at scattered posts throughout the West. So the fact that one company saddler might have made such an accoutrement doesn't mean the whole regiment got them.

[Cheyenne Logan]

Never said it was issued, or a regimental item, references I've found to it were a saddler made item.....kind of like early fairweather Christian belts.... 

[Garret]

In Boots & Saddles At The Little Bighorn, by James S. Hutchins, on page 34 in the chapter "Accouterments" there's a reference to a saddler-made 12 round looped strap that was worn on the belt.  At the close of the 1876 campaign, Capt. Ortho E. Michaelis, Chief Ordnance Officer stated in a report to the Chief of ordnance dated Sept. 29, 1876, that he had a "favorable impression of the looped belt as worn in some of the companies. 'I understand that it is the invention of one of the company saddlers.  This belt had a pendant looped arc on the left side for revolver cartridges.'".

The illustration on the booklet's cover by Hutchins shows an interpretation of this loop suspended on the Fairweather Carbine ammunition belt.  This is of course the author's interpretation, but I think it represents the basic description of the pistol ammunition loop as reported by Capt Michaelis.  His statement that these were worn in some of the companies goes along with what some on this thread have suggested: they were an item made at the company level and not of general issue.

Jerry Lee at WPG has these loops listed and I know that he has had a lot of help and technical advice from knowledgeable Frontier Historians in producing some of his reproductions.  I have no affiliation with WPG, I am a customer of his and appreciate the attention to detail Jerry puts into his products.

[Pitspitr]

The nearest thing I've been able to find even as an experimental item was the Hazen Loops

(I "borrowed" the image from Coon Creek Old West and so I don't know exactly if the repro is a faithful reproduction or if it is just similar)

[Hair Trigger Jim]

Taking the ordnance report at its word, it seems to be describing something much less official than the M1874 Hazen Loops, and the reference to a "pendant looped arc" also fits the example from the from the LBH museum much better than it fits a Hazen Loop.  (Although I don't consider the museum a "source" so much as an example of how it could have been used.)