It sure is quiet around here

[Hemlock Mike]

I'm sorry I took the time to read all this crap.

WE ARE ONE SHOOTING SPORT.  WE STAND TOGETHER OR WE HANG TOGETHER.

I couldn't get the local Mason City club to accept this either but I thought I'd try here.

The closest NCOWS group 'round here is a great bunch of pards.

Mike

[Will Ketchum]

I'm one of 'em, when my membership expires next month.

Rio, I hope you reconsider.  We really need your influence here since I don't believe you  personally know any of the individuals.

I know you don't like some of the things you read on the members only forum and particularity people making jest of other's hats.  Many people who reside East of the Mississippi don't understand that a cowboy's hat is nearly sacred to them.

I for one will miss you if you don't renew.

Will Ketchum

[Delmonico]

Many people who reside East of the Mississippi don't understand that a cowboy's hat is nearly sacred to them.

Thats why I keep saying it takes more than clothes and documentaion of such to make a true personna.  Cris LeDoux made a cult hit out of the 1970's Johnny Paycheck song, "This Cowboy's Hat" or at least out in our area.

[Advertising]

[Sod Buster]

Thats why I keep saying it takes more than clothes and documentaion of such to make a true personna.  Cris LeDoux made a cult hit out of the 1970's Johnny Paycheck song, "This Cowboy's Hat" or at least out in our area.

I agree....on both counts.

[RRio]

Rawhide Rio;

Okay, would you please be kind enough to tell us why?


Grizzle Bear

The fact that I have decided not to renew my NCOWS membership will have no consequences to the organization what-so-ever. I am one of maybe three members in the entire state of Arizona, and the probabilty of ever shooting a NCOWS match are about .1%. In a way, even though I am a member, (and absolutely nobody has done or said anything to made feel this way), I feel like an outsider. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

It has given me the advantage of being on the outside, looking in. Some of the members that post on the NCOWS forum and the NCOWS Chambers forum should look at how they are talking to each other. The "love it or leave it" and "my way or the highway" attitudes, and in some cases name calling, based on opinions of authencity or the way they think something should be accomplished, are not going to endear yourselves to new members, or potential new members. This is supposed to be a brotherhood, for God's sake! There have been times when both forums have looked like something right off the SASS Wire.

RRio

[Delmonico]

Thanks Pard, a lot of what I've seen happen the last few days seems to me some who have been told to love it or leave it have decided to leave and are just simpley flippin' the bird so to speak as they leave, not an uncommon reaction when someone has offended you.

Authenticity is often just an opinion based on ones own research if you are honest, sometimes the "that ain't the way it is attitude comes off to folks who's research has come to a different conclusion than someone elses, as calling them a liar, an offense worse that the hat insult  Intent don't mean poop, it's how it comes off to the other person that does. 

In my experience in any historic venue those who claim PC often do VERY well in the area of their own expertice and fall down in others, this is fine as long as they realize that, since this group is based on not just the shooting and not just being 100% PC to the point of being judged, but a mix of both that is said to make room for both, if I read the By-Laws correctly.

[Irish Dave]

this group is based on not just the shooting and not just being 100% PC to the point of being judged, but a mix of both that is said to make room for both, if I read the By-Laws correctly.

Del:
I think you're reading them exactly right in my opinion. That's precisely my interpretation as well.

[Silver Creek Slim]

Rawhide Rio,
Thanks for your insightful reply. I agree with you.

Slim

[DArchangel]

Sorry guys I don't like "I've got to win" gamers. Weather it's shooters or clothes nazies. Just try your best and HAVE FUN.

[Fox Creek Kid]

The "love it or leave it" and "my way or the highway" ...

OK, so using your philosophy what if a person showed up at a PGA golf tournament with a tennis racket and screamed because they wouldn't let him play? A horse at the Indy 500? A machine gun at a muzzle loading event? Better yet, if someone form Handgun Control showed up at an NRA banquet and wanted the floor? I haven't belonged to any group or organization whereas some faction hasn't tried to exert control in some form or other.  NCOWS is "culling the weeds" so to speak and the lines have been drawn. There comes a time when a person has to decide where they stand. That time is now. Some will answer the call and some will not.

[Delmonico]

And why is the middle ground where it is intended to be so wrong?  Is anyone trying to shoot their 1100 Remmy and their Glock?    Perhaps the shotgun targets should be pigeons and glass balls, after all that is PC.   Where do you stop on PC? 

[Dr. Bob]

Del,

I have only seen one instance of a person being talked to about his clothing.  At the recent nationals a fellow came in in regular blue jeans.  He was politely told of the rules and quickly offered proper pants by at least 2 NCOWS members.  NO complaints about any hats.

At the GAF Muster last Oct. nobody said any thing to the fella who was wearing modern stitche top cowboy boots, jeans with both back pockets, modern shirt that buttons all the way down, modern leather jacket with a zipper, and a buscadero rig.  We noticed, but didn't say anything.

NCOWS is based on MINIMUN authenticity.  I don't care what your hat looks like.  I think that most any crease existed and most were left open and were worn with the shape that just happened for the most part.  Being a townie, I don't often wear a "cowboy" hat.  No problem here with a slope crease with pinch.  There were several at Hooten and no one was hasseled for wearing one.  Yea, we discuss and cuss them here, but all are entitled to an opinion.  Mine is that "hats are hats" and wear what you want/like.

Guns and other equipment - see the approved/unapproved list.  It has been voted on by the Congress, which is elected by the members.  Pretty simple to know what is ok and what isn't.

We have shooting classes for most any taste.  4/5 guns for those who want to, 2 guns for those like me, cap & ball BP for the early folks.  All approved and encouraged.  None in the Congress are trying to eliminate any of this.

NCOWS is quite inclusive.  Plenty of great competitors AND plenty of Old West history buffs.  Some are both.  Let's get back to having fun.

[Delmonico]

Dr. Bob, yeah I think thats what it's all about.  As long as folks meet the minimum, it should be left be, example will make them want more, not the preaching that seems to abound.  People are like dogs you back them in a corner and most will bite.  I've spent a lot of time over the last few years helping folks who started with the mininum, up grade to much higher standards.  Yes it's my job when I'm on the clock, but my work is by far not all done on the clock.

Get folks out there meeting the minimum, be friendly to them and they will want more, it's human nature.

[Black River Smith]

In my experience in any historic venue those who claim PC often do VERY well in the area of their own expertice and fall down in others, this is fine as long as they realize that, since this group is based on not just the shooting and not just being 100% PC to the point of being judged, but a mix of both that is said to make room for both, if I read the By-Laws correctly.

If I am reading this the way you mean it to sound.  That is the by-laws allow both sides to exist in harmony together at the same time at the same shoots, well then I agree with you.

Both sides have aways existed together from the beginning.  But I don't believe there are two sides.  We Dress Old West style and We Shoot Old West Guns.  But they are not two seperate entities.  It is what the Club stated it would do as a Club in the Preamble.

Marlen Ingram's 3 levels of authentity helped people understand each other better concerning outfit.

The approved and non-approved list helps each individual understand the shooting portion of the club.

The acceptance of 12 or more shooting classes/categories indicates variety, not lumping compromise, within NCOWS.

The '100% PC to the point of being judged' is your expression for the Original Category, I gather.  This was a voted and approved category like any other class/category, Smokeless, BP or pistoleer.  It should not be a bone of contention for anyone, it is a volunteer category, just like all others.  I don't shoot smokeless anymore but I am not going to bash those that do.

The group of people or club that may be leaving NCOWS made it clear that they did not approve of this category.  They even stated they felt it should be only a side match not a category/class of shooting.  I thought I saw comments that the club would not offer it at NCOWS shoots.  Well it was voted on and approved by the member body of NCOWS, not just the 20 or so that participate in the class.

This club stated that their clients emphasized the shooting and that they were in touch with the shooting events.  But this same group had numerous members pushing to ban the use of Spencers 56/50's.  Remember back summer of 2005.  Well look at what SASS did some 8 - 10 months later.  They approved it.  We only have limited approval.  They state they are in touch with the shooting masses.  Well that is one we lost because of their push.

Now that club is still making their own decisions.  They could not and choose not to follow the member decisions.  In my mind they do see two seperate entities.

To me NCOWS matches are not just another practice session for the major SASS events, unlike some may think.

To the public this is only my own opinion and perspective on the past limited history I have had with NCOWS.

[Delmonico]

Since everyone is doing this for fun or so they say, why is there even a need to divide things up any more than a class for many guns and one for only two guns?  To seperate from those who want to dress the minimum and those who want to do more is to start a division.  I never met anyone who stayed with the minimum once they got started and decided to stay.

I guess most folks or rather all folks I know do this just for fun, maybe it's me that is missing something, is there someone out there that does what they do for something other than fun?  I await with held breath.

[Irish Dave]

Del:

Except for those who are in this as vendors, I suspect every one of us is in it for the fun. The problem comes in how each person finds his/her "fun."

Unfortunately, some folks apparently find it fun to pull the wings off of butterflies or set cats on fire.

The result is that, by necessity, whenever folks are going to gather together for the purpose of having "fun," such as in an organization, then there have to be some rules so that all who wish can play together. That's one of the freedoms we all compromise in order to live and interact socially. Finding some areas of common ground among a sea of individuals is the basis for virtually any club or organization.

[Black River Smith]

To seperate from those who want to dress the minimum and those who want to do more is to start a division.  I never met anyone who stayed with the minimum once they got started and decided to stay.

I guess most folks or rather all folks I know do this just for fun, maybe it's me that is missing something, is there someone out there that does what they do for something other than fun?  I await with held breath.

I now see what you and others mean and are concerned over.

To answer your second statement, it has been well stated that the shooting competition and the desire to win a SASS match is the driving force for several.  In the same respect for others the simulation of what may have been a real gun fight is the driving force(not all guns at once).  Which one is correct?  Who cares we offer both, you choose which category.  Is that wrong?  As you continue to state, steel is not PC but neither is 4/5 guns at once.

All the classes before Originals were already divisions within the club.  Division to allow people with common interest/shooting styles to interact together with in the rules and By-laws.  Why does clothing/dress and correct matching of items in a time frame create a perceived greater divisions?   The use of speed enhancing devices would create an even deeper division between member over time if allowed.  The competitive drive to win or be on top, creates a deep division, then add money into the factor, like in SASS.  Well!!!!

So you tell me what is driving this division?

It ain't really clothing and appearances or the use of only two guns.  It is the overall desire to be competitive and stay competitive, to use similar items like the club where the money is.

I, like others, use to have fun with all 4 gun at matches in the 90's and thought of attending EOT.  But now I don't need or have to shoot all of them at one sitting in order to have fun with friend or people with overlapping interest.  I am not competitive enough to want to beat the other person to the very top but only as for as my finance and desires let me achieve.   So I am happy and having fun.

Once again only my personal opinion.

Editted:  One thing to remember the interest in shooting different classes started years and years ago, even before I started.  So the divisions where already starting by your theory of any new class is a division of the group.  But understand one thing I would be more than happy to talk and share ideas/conversion with anyone from any other shooting category.
Also think about this, the division you preceive begins the moment you send in your entry form with "names of whom you would like to be paired up with".  Well we all go for our own friends/posse members and afterward we still hang with our own.  Thereby, sometimes never having the chance or desire to talk to new people.
To stop the appearance of division or perception of not liking one another, don't have SASS like shoots, where you fly though the course of fire and then pack up and head home.  Let people talk, have the comradre and have fun.

[Dr. Bob]

Del,

Let me take a shot at answering your question.

People compete in a lot of different areas.  When you think of NCOWS, YOU think of shooting.  Some think of re-enactment.

I chose to participate in the Originals because it is a competition where you are judged on your persona & approptiateness of your clothing & shooting equipment, which is added to your shooting score.  Just as intense a competition for me as when I was a collegiate rifle shooter in the Big Eight Championship match. [Big 8 Conference Champ in 1965, 3 year on All Conference Team]  I don't criticise those who chose smokless shootist as thier form of fun.  I don't feel threatened by them and thier 4 gun & a PP!

I see no reason that they should feel threatened by such a small number of NCOWS member who find a different type of competition suits us better.

As has alreay been stated, OVER AND OVER, we all get to choose our OWN catagory to compete in.  Please give us a break!

[Delmonico]

As ya know, you can do what ya want, and Dr. Bob I know you are one who does some Living History in the public venue, but that much work and effort is wasted if your only goal is to bang away at some irion targets.  Folks always whine and complain the general public has got all their knowledge of the west from movies.  Well if ya ain't doing nuthin' ta change it you are part of the problem.  Heck since the organization seems to want to make more rules, make the rule that "Originals" all have to do at least to public venue Living History events a year.  Yep do more that put it on paper, do in in front of strangers, that will prove you are at a higher level.  Do that or even better everyone in the group do it with out havin' to be told to do it.  NCOWS would only benifit a hundred fold.

[Books OToole]

hey Del,

I think most of the "Originals" do just what you are advocating.  I know that Trap, Dr. Bob and I all came from living history groups.  Most recently Trap & I (and our lovely red haired wives) along with Chantilly & Shooten Newton were on the grounds of the Kansas State Historical Society as part of a program doing exactly that.  Debunking the Hollywood myths. [They have an amazing exhibit that highlights the most atrocious B westerns that you never heard of and then sets the record straight.]

Just reading here I have heard of similar endeavors by River City John and James Hunt.

Right there is neary half of the "Originals."

The Great Lakes Freight & Mining Posse routinely takes part in a train robbery living History/theator event.

These people and groups are the out reach program of NCOWS.

Unfortunately were are overwhelmed by the other organization that seems to emphasize the Hollywood non-sense.

This does not diminish the efforts by some of the shooting first members.  I known of several that are sponsors and instructors in hunter and range safety programs.

One side is not superiour to the other.  They just emphasize different part of what NCOWS is about.

Books