Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => Shooter's Meeting => Topic started by: cowboyjared on June 27, 2012, 01:36:06 PM
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I just recently became interested CAS and have been researching and trying out a lot of different guns. Right now heres what I am thinking for a set up to get started. For pistols I am looking an a Uberti 1851 Navy Conversion or a set of Ruger Vaqueros both with the 4.75 in barrels. For rifles Im think a Winchester Model 1892 Large Loop carbine, 19in barrel, a Uberti 1866 Yellowboy 19 in, or a Cimmaron 1866 Yellowboy, and for shotguns either a Stoeger or Cimarron Coach Gun. I have looked through a lot of websites and handled these when available. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated and if you have any experience with any of these guns I would like to here what you thought of them.
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Well I'm fond of the conversions, I've been around awhile and enjoy the conversions as my Main guns.
However, the Rugers are hard to beat at the entry level...
if you go the 92 skip the large loop....just slower.
Uberti is a Cimarron or Taylors, I would recommend the 66 way over the 92.
Lastly, for shotguns either a Stoeger or Cimarron Coach Gun will serve you well
for the coin the Stoeger is the less expensive.
The best advise to go to a shoot or two asked and you will be allowed to try your choices.
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So what conversion would you recommend I read several reviews about the Uberti not be able to stand up to regular use. And everyone says Ruger is the best but I prefer the look of the 1851 Navy. Are conversion just as easy to shoot as a standard cartridge revolver?
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Depends,
If you are trying to pinch pennies and have to buy a rifle, it is my OPINION that the best gun for beginners is the Uberti '73 in the same round as your pistols.
If you already have a Model 66, or have one in your sites really cheap, that may be the best way to go ... but if I had to spend the money, I would look at a Codymetic '73 ... however it is not legal for NCOWS with the short-stroke kit installed ...
(http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab107/WaddWatsonEllis/Codymatic1873Winchester1.jpg)
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Well I'm fond of the conversions, I been around awhile and enjoy the conversions as my Main guns.
However, the Rugers are hard to beat at the entry level...
if you go the 92 skip the large loop....just slower.
Uberti is a Cimarron or Taylors, I would reccomend the 66 way over the 92.
Lastly, for shotguns either a Stoeger or Cimarron Coach Gun will serve you well
for the coin the Stoeger is the less expensive.
The best advise to go to a shoot or two asked and you will be allowed to try your choices.
Major2 speaks words of iron.
Get the Rugers. They are the best bang for your buck out there: inexpensive and reliable.
Get an Uberti '66 or '73. Both will serve you well. They will cost the same. The '73 is easier to clean.
Get your rifle and revolvers in the same caliber. This will make your life a whole lot simpler.
Go with the Stoeger. Will cost you less, easy to gunsmith, and loads of spare parts out there.
Note: this advice for good starter guns. There are nicer guns out there, but the $ get $$$. After you get bored with te Rugers, you'll get he itch for some Conversions, or an nice set of Schofields.
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i just started shooting cas a few months ago i ended up buying apair of uberti 1873 pistols with 43/4 barrel in 357[ found a pair of consective #pistols on gun broker for 510 plus transfer fees] a new rossi m92 also in357 started with a old fox shotgun but had ign problems on i barrel so i sold it and bought a new baikal double and put some modifyed cocking levers in it so it stays open i bought the 92 rifle so i could hunt deer with it using hot handloads i'm going to get a 73 rifle soon[with a actionjob and shortstroke kit] its probly one of the fastest and smouthest rifles i've shot the 92 is very ammo oal sentsive i load moulton 147 gr bullets to 357 lenght 1.55 so if you get a 92 you probly will need to load your own if iwas going to start over i would have bought a codymatic 73 or the like and i want a couple of colt ssa 2nd models [if i can ever afford them]
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Thanks for all the tips got to go handle some of the guns I was looking at. I really like the short Vaqueros they have a nice balance to them. I also got to handle the Uberti 66 and I am not a fan of the hammer being in the sight line but I do see that most of the time the hammer will be cocked while aiming. Is this an issue for anyone else? I still really like the Winchester 92 for some reason and I actually prefer the large loop but as someone said earlier it is slower. But I also had another gun that just came in. The Henry Big Boy in 45 LC but my one concern is you load it up like the 1860 Henry. Ive tried guns with both loading styles and I prefer the side load to the barrel load. Sorry I dont know all the lingo yet on the guns.
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Thanks for all the tips got to go handle some of the guns I was looking at. I really like the short Vaqueros they have a nice balance to them. I also got to handle the Uberti 66 and I am not a fan of the hammer being in the sight line but I do see that most of the time the hammer will be cocked while aiming. Is this an issue for anyone else? I still really like the Winchester 92 for some reason and I actually prefer the large loop but as someone said earlier it is slower. But I also had another gun that just came in. The Henry Big Boy in 45 LC but my one concern is you load it up like the 1860 Henry. Ive tried guns with both loading styles and I prefer the side load to the barrel load. Sorry I dont know all the lingo yet on the guns.
Get what feels good in your hand. You are doing right by handling many different guns.
A few notes:
1) You will only be viewing your 66 sights with the hammer back. Some folks change out the factory rear sight to a full buckhorn.
2) The Winchester 92's are a stout design. It's not very fast and can be picky about the ammo you use (especially over-all cartridge length.) 66 is going to be a faster rifle.
3) Do not buy a Henry Big Boy. Do a few searches here and you'll find out why.
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Man people really dont like that Big Boy
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One thing I noticed reading the reviews is that some people dont like the shooters that use the short stroke kits and other modifications to increase speed. Does that stem from people not seeing it as traditional enough (basically saying gunfighters did use this in the Old West). Or is there something else I am missing? Does a beginner need to modify guns to be competitive to some extent or can you go out with stock guns and keep up with most?
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CowboyJared,
I think if you are fast, you are fast. Period.
This coming from a guy who owns a Codymatic '73. I mean, the short stroke kits are neat ... but for the price of a Taylor's (which is where he buys his guns) and a little bit more, I got a gun that has had all the things I would pay extra shipping and FFL fees (which can be large and heartbreaking) done .... so it seemed the best policy to have them done before I got the gun ....
If I had it all to do again, I would again buy a Codymatic and then tell him that I intended to compete in NCOWS and have him leave the stroke alone (other than polishing it up to get all the manufacturing burrs and stuff out ...).
BTW, he has his prices on his website so you can see what the effect of buying a Taylor Codymatic (Uberti) '73 is ... in my opinion, it did not cost that much more to buy the weapon through him, have it worked on and send it to my FFL.
http://www.codyscowboyshop.com/
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I just checked Taylors and Codymatic's websites ... it looks like for a little under a hundred dolllars more you can own a genuine Codymatic ... that is less than the FFL fees for one time sending it to be worked on .... and we haven't even begun to talk about gunsmith fees, postal fees, etc. I rest my case and let someone else speak ...
TTFN
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Skip (WWE) is right....
The tune will support your speed , but nothing will support speed like pratice.
Box stock will perform for you, and a tuned whether it is a Ruger, Uberti or even a Genuine Colt will perform some better.
As to the ....." some people dont like the shooters that use the short stroke kits "
It not the Shooter that not cottened to, :-\ it is the kit.
Each shooter/person has their own ideas & goals. Some find speed & winning at all cost the most important aspect and the most fun.
And believe the short stroke kit has a mili-second of advantage, added up over the course of the stages it does .
Others (and these are the shooters you'll find in NCOWS ) find that history, accratecy, and persona is the stronger draw.
There is no right or wrong , both style of shooter derives their pleasure from Western Action Shooting.
There is nothing wrong with a spring job and or bit of smoothing make a good box stock whatever even more a pleasure to cycle.
Just as a tune-up to the family sedan benefits the vacation drive .
"Does a beginner need to modify guns to be competitive to some extent or can you go out with stock guns and keep up with most?"
short answer .... IS NO to the first question and yes to the second question
Join the game at the beginning, and see where it takes you.
What part of the country are you in ?
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Man people really dont like that Big Boy
It's not a bad gun.... just the wrong tool for "WAS''
You might not use an axe to cut hard wood, when a chainsaw was handy
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I am in Eastern Nebraska right now and I am planning on moving to the Western part this fall for school
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Here's my standard pre-printed answer.
Go to some local club shoots. Take about 100 rounds of low velocity lead revolver rounds, .38 Spl or .45 Colt and a box of 12 or 20 ga shotgun shells, Dove loads. The Shooters will let you try all kinds of guns, including different makes, shapes, grips and actions. Then you can make an educated guess as to what you want. I suggest you go to 3 matches before you decide. Several people will likely have guns they want to trade or sale. If you're a club member you'll likely get a better deal. Also take an old felt Cowboy Hat and a thick wide belt to hang a holster on. Yep, you can pickup leather gear too.
I'm betting that you can save yourself hundreds of dollars by not buying before you try.
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I am in Eastern Nebraska right now and I am planning on moving to the Western part this fall for school
There is a fine NCOWS Posse in Nebraska
The Blue River Regulators.... And some fine friends contact "Yuma Kid" John Irons
their next shoot is July 8 range is located 3 miles west & 4 miles north of Valparaiso, NE
http://www.ncows.org/Posses/BRR.htm
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Sorry I keep bugging you guys but I actually have sometime off right now so Im taking advantage of it. Today I finally got to handle one of the 1851 Navy and I did think I could put it on target faster than the Vaquero but long barrel (which I believe can be ordered shorter) and the hammer wasnt as easy to pull back as the Vaquero. The Vaquero on the other hand I really like and I think with some practice I could get it on target. But the cost of Vaqueros is a little high but well worth it according to most people even the used ones at Cabelas are more expensive that an 1851 with the conversion cylinder. Also I compared the 1866 to the Winchester 1892 and I like the overall feel of the 1892 better but yet I do like the authenticity and look of the 66 better the same goes with the Vaquero I like it better but I also want to be more authentic and like the look o the 1851s better
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Howdy Cowboyjared!
Might I suggest a different approach, given your above comments? Decide what draws you to cowboy action shooting first. Is it the competition, or the historical aspect of the 1860-1899 period, or are Hollywood westerns your main influence? Is it a combination of the above or others as well? If so, figure out which has the greatest pull on you now; rank them. All these different draws lead to different types of firearms, gunleather, outfits and cost. What a person would chose if competition were their main draw is VERY different from someone interested in historical accuracy, and these would be very different compared to someone enamoured with Hollywood westerns (TV and film). Tell us where you're coming from and you'll get better tailored suggestions.
When I first started, I was most influenced by Hollywood westerns, but after a few years, being more 1880s period correct became my goal, and my firearms and gear changed and I also began to use blackpowder as well as smokeless. Eventually an earlier era began to interest me, and I began to get involved with first, cap and ball cartridge conversions, then cap and ball itself. I also went back and did better Hollywood cowboy outfits based on some specific movies/TV shows. (Competition never was a big draw for me.)
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I would say that my first draw is seeing how guys like Wild Bill, Wyatt Earp, got their job done, secondly probably the old westerns, and third the competition. Its something new I want to try and eventually get into the mounted shooting.
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Howdy again Cowboyjared!
If the authentic historical aspect of the 1870s-1880s (the Earp and Wild Bill era) interests you, I'd suggest looking more closely at that Cimmaron coach gun with it's external hammers; these would have been more common in the Old West of that era, than an internal hammered double like the Stoeger. Look at the 1866 and 1873 rifles and carbines also, as the 1892 Winchester, although good for a Hollywood western persona, would be too late for the earlier era.
As for handguns, cap and ball and conversions thereof would be correct for the era, but you could also go with 1873 Colt peacemakers and their clones (including the Ruger Vaquero). As you're new to cowboy action shooting, I'd stick with the 1873 peacemaker/clones. The Rugers will be easier to use and more reliable; one less thing to worry about when you're starting out. (I, too, went with Rugers initially, and still use them regularly even now for CAS.) As for calibers and powder, the authentic calibers to that era which are commonly available now are 45 colt and 44-40 for pistols and 44-40 for long guns. (There were no 45 colt long guns in the Old West.) The authentic powder would be black powder, not smokeless. As you're just starting out, and may have a limited budget, this is where I would break with historical tradition, and go with the historically later, but cheaper to shoot 38 special caliber in smokeless for both handguns and long guns. If you really enjoy CAS, at a future date, you could pick up some guns in more historically appropriate (and more expensive) calibers. Now if the mounted aspect really interests you, be aware, they only allow 45 colt in their pistols.
(For gunleather, check out the book "Packing Iron", which will give you tons of pictures of period correct gun leather from the mid 19th century to the early 20th century.)
Hope this helps!
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Today I was going to the local gun stores and checking prices and availability for a gun my friend wants. Well as I was looking around I found a used Ithaca double barrel 12 GA shotgun, now my question is, is it legal to use CAS?
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An Ithaca SxS should be fine . . . BUT . . . Ithaca did make some very beautiful embellished SxS which can command $10K+ to collectors. If it is a field grade, mechanically sound, and it was made post 1900, it should be a good gun for CAS.
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Hi,
As silly as it may seem, weather can make a difference. For instance, living where it gets hot means that the barrel can get almost to hot to hold in a '66 (since it was not make with a forestock) ... something to consider when thinking about long guns ....
TTFN,
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Hi,
As silly as it may seem, weather can make a difference. For instance, living where it gets hot means that the barrel can get almost to hot to hold in a '66 (since it was not make with a forestock) ... something to consider when thinking about long guns ....
TTFN,
You might be thinkin about a '60 Henry. The '66 has a fore end stock.
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Pancho,
I probably bunched the two weapons together ...mea culpa!
Thanks for getting me on the right track!
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So I made my first two CAS guns today a Uberti Model 1866 Sporting Model in the 45 LC(it was half the new price and in great shape). I also bought a early 1900s Ithaca double barrel shotgun.
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Your on your way...nice choices
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If you choose to check out the NCOWS posse in Nebraska you will find we have the Working Cowboy Class which requires one rifle and one pistol. I think you will find your visit to the Blue River Regulators interesting.
If you are considering buying a cap and ball revolver and a conversion cylinder, do not buy a brass framed pistol.
T-Joe
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So when you convert a 1851 Navy from .36 cal to 38 special I have read that you need to have the barrel worked on because the shells arent big enough to grip in the barrel thus making it inaccurate. Whats your take on this?
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BP Conversion's will have a .375 barrel, 38 is .357
there are three options
* Shoot heeled bassed 38 ( you have to reload these or buy from Gary Barns ) Hollow Base wadcutters Factory Ammo can be used too.
these will expand to engage the lands and grooves
* Have the barrel relined with a .357 liner (pricey) several Smiths do this and it is a cool mod. but it will add to the cost of the conversion on your gun.
* best bet, buy a Factory conversion like Uberti's Richards & Mason , it is designed for 38 and it will be a bit less in cost
than buying a C&B and gated Conversion cyl. , ejector and have both fitted and relining the barrel.
photo is Ubertis R&M ( both are the same gun one is photo shop to the shorter barrel )
and BTW is my gun, I'll add it has been Bobbed to 5 1/2 " by Jay Strite (Kirst/Strite) and was smithed by Longhunter.
It has one of the sweetest actions and shoots very well with Factory Black Hills 38 Specials.
The third photo is a gated Kirst convered 1862 London Navy , this still has the .375 barrel (bobbed to 3" ) and I use heeled base bullets loaded with BP, seen with the gun....
Conversion work was done by Gary Barns ( then with Kirst , now independent )
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CowboyJared,
Earlier, you mentioned that the BP revolver had a stouter hammer spring than the cartridge revolver you tested. That is always going to be true. The hammer springs on BP revolvers have to be stronger, to make certain that the falling hammer strikes with enough force to fire the percussion cap. Cartridge revolvers don't have this "handicap".
At least in my opinion, btw, using a "plain" conversion cylinder on one of Colonel Colt's percussion revolvers ('51, '60, '61) is going to be a real pain in the aspirations (if'n ya know what I mean ;)). You'll have to disassemble the sucker each time you want to reload, so you'll have to keep up with four parts -- barrel assembly, barrel wedge, and both parts of the cylinder. In most cases you'll also need a screwdriver or similar to turn the wedge screw.
If you really like the looks and feel of these pistolas, I second the suggestion of taking a long, hard look at the various ready-made "conversions" such as the Richards-Mason pistols (1851 and 1860). They cost more, sure, but they're ready right out of the box. Since they're already set up with a loading gate and ejector, you don't have to take them apart to reload.
-- Daniel Nighteyes
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So are the ready made conversions equipped with a lighter trigger or are they as have as the percussion cap ones?
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lighter....
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So are the ready made conversions equipped with a lighter trigger or are they as have as the percussion cap ones?
Generally they are lighter, and they can be made lighter still.
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My 2 cents. Keep it Simply Simple on your 1st set. Yes we have a pricy sport. Nothing is more frustrating than going to your 1st few matchs and your firearms, due to the complexity of the modifications that you'll need to get them accurate, malfunction, or you lose track of what your suspose to be doing in a scernio because you guns require a lot of attention. I've been shooting about 10 years now and still constantly change category. I have 45 colts, 44-40, 38, 357, and 32, plus 44 cap and ball. If I had to do it all over again, I'd:
1. Go see what a lot of folks are shooting. 2. Make friends with some of the interesting characters in the sport and try out different guns, calibers. 3. This one is optional - but pick a time period that you want to emulate. I break it down into a. pre 73, b. the 1873 thru 1892s and the 1892 till 1898's. From here you can pick your time period of guns. This is strictly optional. Take a look at SASS rules for what category you will most likely shoot in. 4. Rifle and Pistol calibers the same. Makes it more economical. 5. Choose reliable out of the box guns (ok you can guess I'm going to say ruger) I have 4 pair of Om Vaqueros, 1 pair of NM vaqueros, a pair of Old Armies, 2 pair of Colts model P's and a uberti schofield. Cant go wrong with a pair of NM vaqueros, 6. I have a very high opinion of uberty 73's and being the besr all around rifle. I'll get a lot of comments from the marlin crowd. There are no flees on either model. it just I've seen more marlins jam up than 73's. 7. Stoger shotguns, best bang for the buck and easy to work on. 8. Once your fully hooked, get a bigger gunsafe, you'll need it
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+1 on the guns Pappy. :) WM
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So are the ready made conversions equipped with a lighter trigger or are they as have as the percussion cap ones?
Generally they are lighter, and they can be made lighter still.
After going thru much of what Pappy described, I finally settled on my main match pistolas. They're a brace of Uberti '58 Remingtons (actual name = Remington New Model Army Revolvers) that originally had that b*tt-ugly 'Millennium' finish.
Modifications were (a) stripping off that ugly finish and letting the bare metal age naturally, (b) installing lightened mainsprings that were originally intended for the Uberti '75 Remington, (c) installing 'antiqued' R&D .45 Colt conversion cylinders, (d) installing 'aged ivory' grips, and (e) shooting them in about 250 matches at the CAS ranges in Piru CA, so that they've gradually accumulated an excellent 'Piru Action Job' -- its very dusty there, you see...
Today their actions are as smooth as butter, the hammers will cock with very little pressure, and I touch off a round by the power of thought. They almost always shoot right where I'm looking, so the sights frequently don't even get used.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/danielnighteyes/CAS%20Guns%20etc/NMAs-2.jpg)
I'm still slower than molasses in January, but at least part of that is because I shoot Double Duelist and wear my pistolas butt-forward.
(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/danielnighteyes/CAS%20Slideshow/NighteyesIROTSamHouston-1-1.jpg)
Just remember, through all of this initial journey, that the Prime Directive is and always has been, "Have FUN!!!"
Regards,
-- Nighteyes
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Congrats!
They look great! and like you said, have fun with them.........What do you use for a rifle?
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(http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a124/danielnighteyes/CAS%20Guns%20etc/NMAs-2.jpg)
I absolutely love that knife! Where did you find it?
Storm Crow
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Cowboyjared, you are seeing the surface of the game. I can say be careful of "cool". Usually it will not work. Like the big loop. Some style points but wll not compete. Now if you simply want to enjoy poppin' some caps, rubbin' shoulders with the rest of us cowboys and cowgirls, I can totally appreciate that.
I am not aware of any of the top shooters or the top 20 shooters in each class using the conversions or the '92. I am not aware of any top frontier cartridge competitors using the onversions.
Your holster rig is just as important as your firearms. SASS is the only gun game I know where you reholster during the stage and sometimes on the run. You need to check it out. Those cheap soft rigs that you have to hold open to reholster will work but kinda slows you down ::).
If I were to start cowboy today (on a budget) I would get two NM Vaqueros in 38, a Marlin in 38, and a 97 pump. If I had to choose a double, the old style Stoeger would be it. Check with the shooters to see which ne provides an unobstructed path for two shotgun shells.
I would suggest you attend some shoots and ask a bunch of questions. Watch the fast and accurate shooters and what they have for competition.
I am very competitive. But no one has had more fun in cowboy than me.