Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => Gun Reviews => Topic started by: Dispatch on September 19, 2019, 11:18:33 PM
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I've been contemplating buying two new, old stock Colt SAA's (45 lc), with consecutive serial numbers 'if possible', but I am taking into consideration the Italian reproductions like from Taylor's And Company.
I was told Colt's are of better quality especially on fit and finish and that they also hold their value greater.
It's price difference that's astounding as two Italian's are less than or equal to the price of one single Colt.
Has anyone has this situation happen to them? :-\
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Nope...this is a completely unique situation ;D
none the less :P opinions will expound and explicate ;)
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Hey, of you have the money, and it won't put you in the dog house, go Colt. If you don't, go Eyetalian.
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I've been contemplating buying two new, old stock Colt SAA's (45 lc), with consecutive serial numbers 'if possible', but I am taking into consideration the Italian reproductions like from Taylor's And Company.
I was told Colt's are of better quality especially on fit and finish and that they also hold their value greater.
It's price difference that's astounding as two Italian's are less than or equal to the price of one single Colt.
Has anyone has this situation happen to them? :-\
If you can afford it get the Colts, you won't be sorry! They do hold their price and they stand up to rigorous shooting! I have a pair in .357, a third gen and a second gen. I also have a pair of backups that are a Pietta and a Uberti Cattleman.
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Yep, I have both , covet AND Shoot the COLTS , quite fond of the Ubertis as well
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First a CAVEAT: I am not a fan of Colt. Hugely over-priced. Recent quality has sucked. All the other referenced stuff is none the less true. A Colt will hold it's value longer. You probably won't live long enough for it to appreciate enough to be an investment. They were made to be shot ... so shoot them.
They will need action work. They are going to be rough and over-sprung. Lots of stone work, polishing and R&R the OEM springs.
Twer it I. I'd opt for a pair of Pietta built GW IIs. Well made. The only thing they really need right out of the box is a change of Main Spring and whacking off the end of the base pin (two position dealy). And you get (as you mentioned) two nice new guns for the price of ONE Colt.
Your call Navy 47. We're a Lighthouse ;D
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Another baffling thing is what they are 'mostly' selling for online, The Blue Book Of Gun Values has these at 100% for $1,895 for an average Colt SAA model.
Yet sellers on a lot but not all websites that have them are selling them for mid to upper $2,000.
They are averaging about $1,000 above the BBOGV price and some are nowhere near 100 % condition.
How can this be and what does that mean when trying to negotiate on buying a set of them?
Any suggestions as I am going to see a consecutive serial numbered pair tomorrow(attached). ???
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Ah My Good Dispatch -
Firstly, I must predicate my overly verbose opinion with the caveat: I AM A CHEAPSKATE FRUGAL FELLOW.
As a frugal fellow, I am in agreement with our good friend Mr Lighthouse Coffinmaker,
a pair of "out of the box ready" EMF (made by Pietta) GW IIs can be had for $1000. For both.
The modern Piettas are very well made, excellent fit & finish, really great actions.
basic Colts, unfired (supposedly) seem to start around $2200 to $2500 online.
They are no longer being made, so Colt fans wax eloquent and bid high.
Colt internal quality is known to have been iffy in the last decade or so.
Some specimens feel like the action is full of grit.
It seems one can't depend on The Blue Book Of Gun Values whenever there are fools bidding guns online beyond any reasonable value.
Also the actual "value" of a pair of consecutive serial numbers is questionable - to some folks it adds value, others couldn't care.
Each person needs to figure out how much they are willing to spend, and more importantly how much they can safely blow on these toys without
affecting the domestic tranquility or impeding the repairs of important Stuff.
It's all a game, just as is the shopping, negotiating a price, or waiting for another pair - perhaps better or cheaper... perhaps not.
If buying from a reputable Local Gun Shop, one usually has some recourse ( ask for their policies upfront). With private parties that varies
conisderably more...
hope this helps
Prof Marvel
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My Goodness. Professor Marvel oft waxes so much more Eloquent than the rest of us lesser beings.
I, on the other hand, tend to bluntness. Colt's SUCK.
Unfortunately, Coltistas will pay almost anything to acquire almost nothing and have driven the prices through the roof. As have the USFAistas. At least the USFA guns have the build quality to justify their original MSRP (almost).
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Colts may suck, but that is the name most associated with winning the West. "God made Man, Colt made Men equal."
At one time, Walmart was known for great prices on American made products. After Sam Walton died, it went to hell.
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Well, some may say "Colts suck" and as far as a comparison, I would agree!! (They ain't the "equalizer" they started off as . . . ). I'd rather ply my "trade" to a couple of Italian copies and show the Coltistas "what they could have" fer a whole lot less!!! Lol!!!
Mike
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PLUS ONE too 45Dragoon!!! ;D
Hi Mike ;)
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Aw Crap. Here I are again. I forgot to make/clarify a point (no not on top my head). Many folks lust after consecutive number guns. I lust after consecutive number guns. When ever I order a new pair of Cap Guns to Chop, Channel, French the Headlights etc. etc. etc. (stolen famous movie line) I always ask for consecutive guns. Literally .. just because. The Facts mam, Just the Facts (nother stolen famous TV line).
Consecutive numbers is meaningless. Aside from being consecutive. Mechanically, consecutive guns are never alike. Are almost impossible to make "feel" alike. There is no guarantee nor promise the guns were built up by the same technician (most aren't), on the same line (nope), on the same day (no way) or even in the same week. There is no mechanical advantage to consecutive numbers. Most "sets" of "special" guns you see as cased sets from the 19th Century are not consecutive. A very few are. SO:
For some reason, many collectors go GaGa over consecutive guns. Pay stupid money for consecutive. I don't understand why. It's meaningless. Except to some collectors. In many cases, consecutive guns from USFA weren't the same caliber, same barrel length or even the same style of gun. Go figure. If the Consecutiveness of a pair of guns is a part of the asking price .... walk away. Unless of course, you're a collector. If a collector, you'll probably injure yourself grabbing for your checkbook. Good Luck.
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Well, I just came back from looking at them, not a single mark on either one of them.
Absolute perfect condition, as new as if they were just shipped from Colt.
I felt like Homer Simpson salivating over a full box of brand new doughnuts. :o
I mean, just look at that cylinder (attached)...
It was what the shopkeeper said as I was handed one is what stuck in my mind, in a stern voice he said "don't cock the hammer, don't turn the cylinder, don't slide the ejector"...
It dawned on me then, what I was ready to buy right there on the spot, was too good for what I wanted them for.
I thought how could I buy these and then seriously expect to use them, it seemed like a waste and I'd feel so guilty in doing so.
Not to mention the $4,500 -plus tax-, out the door offer they made me cooled my heels in putting any such wear on them.
Nonetheless, I have decided I will place a custom order with Taylor's And Company on Monday for a matching pair I like, in the caliber I want.
I guess it's like anything, you can't know about something until you look into it... :-\
I'll keep you posted.
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Well Sir to each their own ?.
I'm not a curator , I have no inclination in that direction , no intention to be the steward of some object or to save said object for the future profit of a heir.
If I bought it... it will be used as intended , cared for , even coveted , but used it will be ?.
I don't set any "tool " on any pedestal ?
That's not to say , I'm reckless either , I have a rare Griswold & Gunnison Confederate revolver, one of about 2500 produced , I know some of it'shistory
It is not nor have I ever shot it , it just beyond to do so safely ?.
COLT will cease to exist ?. bad corporate decisions, POOR union labor , high union demanded wages , lousy State of manufacture , as in Connecticut !
Colt will go follow the dinosaurs - Winchesters - USFA - Oldsmobile, Pontiac - Excelsior Henderson.... the last nail is set....
Uberti is ALIVE and WELL as is Pietta
Henry Repeating Arms is selling a ton
I'll be sad to see the iconic Colt brand fade into history , I wish Beretta would buy COLT ...as I hear the Colt worshippers collective scream !
I have a Colt.... and Ubertis , and Henrys and they are all shot, and none suck.
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It was what the shopkeeper said as I was handed one is what stuck in my mind, in a stern voice he said "don't cock the hammer, don't turn the cylinder, don't slide the ejector"...
Sooooo.
Pig in a poke
The action might be smooth as silk and the trigger break like glass
OR it could feel like a sack of gravel inside the works.
You can't even know if the chambers line up proper, or if the bolt timing is off!
I don't buy museum pieces that cant be handled.
so I guess I'll just keep beating the ol, Pietta drum....
good luck on your quest!
yhs
prof (i should get paid for this!) marvel
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Sooooo.
Pig in a poke
The action might be smooth as silk and the trigger break like glass
OR it could feel like a sack of gravel inside the works.
You can't even know if the chambers line up proper, or if the bolt timing is off!
I don't buy museum pieces that cant be handled.
so I guess I'll just keep beating the ol, Pietta drum....
good luck on your quest!
yhs
prof (i should get paid for this!) marvel
Yea, I took his comments as being testy, if I remember right, everyone in that shop seemed a bit agitated for some reason, maybe it was because it was also a pawn shop.
It's alright, it worked out to my benefit as it made me see clear that having two that I could actually use was the best decision. ;)
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:) A wise decision Padawan. 4500 Bucks for a pair of SAA is ...... Obscene. Trust me. A wayward Coltista will actually pay that price. P. T. Barnum said it best.
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But my real question is this, like with the philosophical dilemma 'the chicken or the egg', the same applies to the gun... which came first the holster or the gun? ???
;D
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The first firearms were too big to carry. After years of refinement, holsters came along.
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The first firearms were too big to carry. After years of refinement, holsters came along.
Yea but they had to have carried the very first pistols in something... ;D
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The dragoons were carried in pommel holsters. I think there were some belt holsters for the earlier single-shot pistols, weren't there?
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Another dilemma, is there such a thing as having too many pistols??? ???
During the civil war, Confederate cavalrymen carried many, some 6 to 8 on average I read...
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Yea, I took his comments as being testy, if I remember right, everyone in that shop seemed a bit agitated for some reason, maybe it was because it was also a pawn shop.
It's alright, it worked out to my benefit as it made me see clear that having two that I could actually use was the best decision. ;)
Odd in that you can see on the picture of the consecutive revolvers the cylinders had been turned and had scored the metal leading into the bolt stop cutouts. Tells me the bolt was dropping early and scoring the cylinder.
I'm guessing your cautionary comment was about the second picture posted.
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Odd in that you can see on the picture of the consecutive revolvers the cylinders had been turned and had scored the metal leading into the bolt stop cutouts. Tells me the bolt was dropping early and scoring the cylinder.
I'm guessing your cautionary comment was about the second picture posted.
This is them... :-\
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/829539421
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Well, I just came back from looking at them, not a single mark on either one of them.
Absolute perfect condition, as new as if they were just shipped from Colt.
I felt like Homer Simpson salivating over a full box of brand new doughnuts. :o
I mean, just look at that cylinder (attached)...
It was what the shopkeeper said as I was handed one is what stuck in my mind, in a stern voice he said "don't cock the hammer, don't turn the cylinder, don't slide the ejector"...
It dawned on me then, what I was ready to buy right there on the spot, was too good for what I wanted them for.
I thought how could I buy these and then seriously expect to use them, it seemed like a waste and I'd feel so guilty in doing so.
Not to mention the $4,500 -plus tax-, out the door offer they made me cooled my heels in putting any such wear on them.
Nonetheless, I have decided I will place a custom order with Taylor's And Company on Monday for a matching pair I like, in the caliber I want.
I guess it's like anything, you can't know about something until you look into it... :-\
I'll keep you posted.
It was what the shopkeeper said as I was handed one is what stuck in my mind, in a stern voice he said "don't cock the hammer, don't turn the cylinder, don't slide the ejector"...
I can understand both his and your point of view....
it is common curtesy not to cycle someone's new gun ?.... unless permission is granted
It was obvious by his statement it was not, you wisely walked away
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Hi
I only have ONE nice looking firearm, not a Colt. I was after a .45-70 1886 lever gun, and Chiappa makes them. I took a purdy one with nice wood and lots of Case hardening instead of the plain ole one I was after because the distributor had the purdy one, but nobody had the plain Jane one. Shoots ok, but I don't play it much, not because it's purdy, but because I got a couple of Krags.
I ended up with a couple of Schofields since the SAA doesn't fit my hands all that well. I kept one back just in case, but the first one is fine, but I need to start playing the second one.
Have fun.
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Buy American.
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Nah. Looking at the Gun Broker photos, there is no actual contact marks on the cylinder notches or leads. What looks like wear is light reflection for the photographs. I do well understand the dealer's desire to keep the guns as pristine as possible for maximum value to a Colt Cultist Collector whom will be willing to make the purchase in hope the guns will form a part of their 401K. NOT.
Still, that price tag is OBSCENE!! Five Grand for a pair of current manufacture Colts is just flat ridiculous.
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Well, the order is in...
2 checkered 'Gunfighters' in charcoal blue(special order), 5.5" barrels, .45 long Colt, Taylor tuned, $800+ a piece.
They said they are going to 'try' to get them ordered with consecutive serial numbers.
Taylor's said it's a custom order so it'll take about 90 days give or take.
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This is sort of late. But my local gun store has this for sale https://www.gunsamerica.com/971341825/Colt-SAA-2nd-Generation-357Mag-5-1-2-nickel-consecutive.html
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Nah. Looking at the Gun Broker photos, there is no actual contact marks on the cylinder notches or leads. What looks like wear is light reflection for the photographs. I do well understand the dealer's desire to keep the guns as pristine as possible for maximum value to a Colt Cultist Collector whom will be willing to make the purchase in hope the guns will form a part of their 401K. NOT.
Still, that price tag is OBSCENE!! Five Grand for a pair of current manufacture Colts is just flat ridiculous.
Keep in mind , the price of admission
includes ...
,
Paying a UAW union workers - high wages including Health & Welfare and 401K , Vacation ,
Connecticut workers? compensation tax and unemployment insurance tax + Cost of living increase clause in the contract
then there are required specific permits and licenses.
Alarm Permit
Building Permit
Business License and Tax Permit
Health Permit
Occupational Permit
Signage Permit
Zoning Permit
withholding tax and business entity tax & Insurance.....
Just for the privilege of DBA Hartford, CT - a Non-right-to-work state !
"Ol" Mario or Luigi over @ Pietta / Berretta / Uberti in Gardone have none of those , de ducks
You want a COLT ...pay the man
Pietta... pay the importer
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And don?t forget my favorite-taxes, corporate taxes, fed, state and local despite the fact that people don?t seem to grasp is that corporations, companies, businesses or retailers DON?T pay any taxes- the last guy in line, you and me, the American consumer pays them. Income tax just is a political racket used by politicians to get them reelected, they write the laws to benefit themselves and their rich contributors so the rich pay virtually nothing, the poor get money back that they didn?t pay in and the working guy or gal PAYS for everything. Close down the irs and make those guys tax or fraud investigators [which is rampant] and have a federal sales tax that applies to everyone including religious entities but not businesses. Collect sales tax on money spent by drug-gambling-prostitution, the shade tree mechanic, the kitchen hair dresser etc when they go to the Food Lion, walmart, ABC store or pimpmobile dealer. Collect the tax when the money is spent not earned with no exemptions. People say it?s not fair but the states collect the same x% sales tax from everyone and no problems. The wealthy pay taxes on Lincolns, estates and Gucci while the rest of us pay taxes on Fords, townhouses and Wranglers. And while I?m ranting don?t forget term limits, 2x 6 year terms or 3x 4 year terms are plenty and the last term they serve can actually be used for the benefit of the country and the taxpayers and not for the all mighty political party or war chest they will need for the next election cycle in order to stay in office until they die. And when they leave from inside the beltway they are prohibited by law to have any dealings there.
Sorry for my rant. Guess I got off topic a hair. Soap box mode off.
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covered it
business entity tax = corporate taxes, fed, state and local
as for the rest.... preaching to the choir ...Im afraid
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I don't mind paying a slightly higher price for something exceptional but there is a difference between paying a slightly higher markup and just getting ripped off.
Can you believe, since I went there they have been calling me leaving messages to see if I still want them. ;D
I would have bought them 'IF' the shop would have had them at The Blue Book Of Gun Values appraisal price ($1,895), but what they were selling them for is as Coffinmaker said, almost $5k is just simply obscene.
This shop is selling them at a super jacked up price that just isn't warranted and unfortunately this is the case with so many other sellers, that is why their stock sits on the shelf for years and no one buys them.
It's a damn shame as someone could be enjoying them but won't be due to price... :-\
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This is sort of late. But my local gun store has this for sale https://www.gunsamerica.com/971341825/Colt-SAA-2nd-Generation-357Mag-5-1-2-nickel-consecutive.html
Too bad they are in .357 but thanks for the heads up though. ;)
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This shop is selling them at a super jacked up price that just isn't warranted and unfortunately this is the case with so many other sellers, that is why their stock sits on the shelf for years and no one buys them.
Pawn Shops seem to have a tendency to do that.....
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Coincidentally I found this article which talks about this same topic at hand, I found it in the new issue of Old West History, Guns & Gear, its titled:
'Are They Any Good? Real Versus Repro Classic Guns Of The West'.
While storied names command frightful premiums, authenticity doesn't have to!
It sold initially for $17.50. Today, with limited wear, an early Colt Single Action Army might fetch $90,000.
These prices (debut retail and a current Blue Book Of Gun Values estimate) should catch the eye of any investor.
In 1873 a Double Eagle gold piece contained 0.9675 oz. of gold. At most hardware stores the coin would have bought a new SAA, plus a holster and a box of cartridges. Now, at $1,300 an ounce, gold has appreciated far less than the revolver. Even a current single-action Colt - fresh from the custom shop with no history to add value - commands $1,800. Round figures. You get the idea.
So, if you found an early Peacemaker in an old house, as did one fellow in 1925, you'd surely pay $4 he gave the widow of the late army officer who had owned it.
Though it had likely never strayed far from that New Hampshire farm, and thus lacked any link to frontier bloodshed, this revolver fetched $242,000 at a Christie's auction in 1987.
Which is why, after parting with a much-later SAA, I still see a therapist.
Even Colt's a decade into smokeless production come dear these days. A SAA built shortly after 1896, when the vertical screw locking the cylinder pin gave way a horizontal lock, can fetch $11,000, says Blue Book.
No matter the scuffed blue and scarred stocks dragging the condition down to 80%. Some Cowboy Action shooters might fire such a gem. Others would find the cost of authenticity too high especially if the homestead begged a new furnace or a heedless bovine had wrinkled the family buggy at Dead Cow Curve.
A Modern Take
Though the SAA's profile, balance and operation predated metallic cartridges, hand gunners kept Colt's Hartford plant humming into the 1920's. But by the onset of World War II, demand had fallen victim to double actions and autoloading pistols. In 1919, Stoeger's Shooters Bible listed SAA's at $ 38.50. Colt wouldn't resume production until 1956, when it bumped the price to $125.
Other manufacturers showed no interest in reviving the type - save William Batterman Ruger. "I had always loved the old single-action Colt. I can remember yearning for one when I was 14 (and) living in New York City"...
Ruger's Single-Six appeared in 1953. Orders for the .22 flooded in. A centerfire version in .357 Magnum came two years later. "Rebirth of the single action", proclaimed Shooter's Bible.
Ruger's refinements included "best quality music wire springs throughout, no leaf springs," a "micro adjustable rear sight." Retailing for $87.50, this revolver, the BlackHawk, had a "chisel pointed alloy steel firing pin mounted in the frame."
The 1950's also ushered in the Great Western series of SAA lookalikes. They offered the same barrel lengths as the Colt.
Also, "every-part... in the Great Western Frontier is interchangeable with the Single Action Army revolver hammer and trigger and bolt screws."
The Great Western featured a floating, frame-mounted firing pin. Proof loads generating pressures of 52,000 psi evidently produced no hint of frame failure in revolvers bored for .357 Atomic - which, with Great Westerns in .44 Special, listed at $125. In .38 Special and .45 Colt, the price was $97.50.
These seem modest sums now; they would have stunned men who carried early Colts. Sam Bass and his gang got only $11 from one robbery. Another netted them a dozen peaches.
March 1877, gang members Robert McKimie killed stage driver Johnny Slaughter during the hold up. The other outlaws voted McKimie out, but the damage was done. Were it not for Slaughter's death, Bass and company might have lived well off a Nebraska train robbery. Besides an immediate $1,300, plus loot from wealthy passengers, the baggage car disgorged a mother lode of $60,000 in gold!
A fortune in the days of $18 revolvers! Alas the bandits flaunted their wealth, and the law took full advantage.
Italy Steps Up
Roughly a century after the SAA appeared, black powder enthusiast Mike Harvey and his wife Mary Lou opened a gun shop in Houston. Using a museum rifle as template. Mike built his own muzzleloader from scratch. Then he bought Allen firearms.
Cartridges rifles and revolvers followed percussion front-stuffers.
To grow his business, Mike visited Brescia, in Italy's "gun valley". Impressed by Aldo Uberti's understanding of "the art of the gun and how to capture it," Mike engaged him to produce the 1873 Colt SAA in all details save proof marks - but using the best steels. Fit, finish and function had to match the original's.
So began Cimarron Firearms. Over the past 30 years Cimarron has worked with Uberti and other quality-conscious manufacturers to introduce dozens of historically significant rifles and handguns. Most designs hark to the 1860's and 1870's, but you'll find 1847 Walker and 1848 Baby dragoon Colts, and the 1851 Navy favored by Wild Bill Hickok. You can also get the Richards-Mason conversions that adapted percussion revolvers to metallic cartridges, and true-to-life 1858 Remington.
The Cavalry and Bisley versions of Colt's 1873 came in a variety of finishes, even antique "original" and bright charcoal blue. Case-colored frames are standard; some models offer a a stainless option. Cimarron also recreates the important Model No. 3 Schofield hinged-frame revolver. It comes in .44-40, .45 Colt and .38 Special. The faithfully reproduced Model No. 3 Russian is listed in .45 Colt and .44 Russian.
For shooters enamored of Hollywood's renditions of the Old West, Cimarron has firearms faithful to famous films such as the Rooster Shooter, Wyatt Earp Buntline, Doc Holliday Thunderer and even The Wild Bunch 1911 from Sam Peckinpah's 1969 western.
In addition to Cimarron, other importers like Taylor's & Company and Dixie Gun Works also offer reproductions from Italy. National allegiance aside, how good are Italian reproductions?
My Cimarrons include 2 5 1/2" Pre-War Frontier in .45 Colt, a 7 1/2" Old Model P in .44-40 and a 4 5/8" Model 1877 Lightning in .32-20. The .45 and .32-20 have the cross button cylinder pin release; I specified the the earlier screw lock for the .44-40. I hadn't planned on buying so many, but each impressed me with its faithful detailing, the fit of its parts and its smooth action. Trigger pulls aren't uniformly perfect, but I'm finicky about triggers, and there's no other visible or palpable flaw.
Given traditional fixed sights, I'm pleased this trio shoots close to point of aim with Black Hills Cowboy Action ammo: 250-gr. RN at 725 fps for the .45, 200-gr. RN at 800 fps for the .44-40 and 115-gr. FP at 800 fps for the .32-20.
Comfortable loads, they shoot as tight as I can hold over bags. The .45 blessed me with a knot so snug it qualifies as outrageous good fortune.
None of these revolvers has malfunctioned. I did, however, lose the .32-20 to Alice, whose hands couldn't be pried from that graceful bird's-head grip: "It's cute!" The report was mild; her bullets sailed true. I don't have a three-gun belt anyway.
Home Of The Brave...
What about U.S. Companies? While Colt Custom Shop SAA's still turn heads, Ruger six guns cost much less. Cosmetically appealing, they're reliable, accurate and durable. In 1958, on the heels of the Single-Six and BlackHawk, Ruger fielded a petite Bearcat .22.
The "Old Model" Super BlackHawk .44 Magnum followed within a year.
From 1963 into mid-'64 Ruger produced the Hawkeye pistol in .256 Winchester. Its revolver profile belied a single-shot action. The total run of 3,075 Hawkeyes sold into the early 1970's.
In 1972 Ruger began making its Old Army black powder .45-caliber revolver. Unlike Colts, it wore a top strap and adjustable sights. The same year Ruger also announced its New Model Single-Six and Blackhawk, with two-position hammer and transfer-bar ignition. Safe with six rounds!
The New Model Super Blackhawk arrived in '73. Eleven Single-Six rimfire to the .32 H&R Magnum: ?the muzzle energy and velocity of which exceeded those of the .38 Special... The 2007 debut of Federal's .327 Magnum would give the revolver even more zip. Single-Sixes took Bisley form in 1985. A new Model Super Blackhawk Hunter with scope-friendly rib appeared in '92 an updated follow-up to the original Peacemaker and a tribute to both Samuel Colt's design and Bill Ruger's vision.
In 1993 Ruger announced its Vaquero, true to the original Colt SAA in hand, but with the mechanical innovations Ruger had earned increasing market share for over four decades. In .44-40, .45 Colt and .44 Magnum, and at a price of $394, this fixed-sight sixgun was irresistible. I bought one.
The self-loading pistol, now with synthetic components, has a firm grip on L.E. And military sales. But the single-action Colt, a century and a half old, still seduces shooters who've never felt the handle of a plow.
Call it a faultless marriage of form and function. Blame an intemperate fascination with the feral men whose bullets riddled the frontier. We still adore the SAA. Its domestic and offshore offspring aren't "real Colts", but they're real good and in some ways better! And you don't need a tall stack of Double Eagles to buy one... ;D
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How authentic, close to the original 1873 Colt, do you want it to be ?
I prefer Pietta's, and I have had bad luck with other makers.
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I've worked on both and owned an El Patron Comp.(Uberti) that was an absolutely amazing S.A. !! The only Pietta's I've tuned ('73 copy wise) are a pair of "El Malo's' (they have octagon barrels). They were surprisingly a lesser revolver in my opinion. The action parts looked like they came from the '70s, just like the the cap and ball guns they sell. Uberti has the " market " on action parts for sure (Sam would have had a fit to have them!!!). The Piettas were turned into some "fast as lightening" Comp. guns!! Coil action springs and all the other goodies!! It definitely takes more "tuning" for them than the Uberti product. Of course, it depends on what you expect a tuned revolver to be!
Mike
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My wife and I each have a pair of current generation 7-1/2" Pietta SAAs in 44-40. Couldn't be happier with them.
She bought her's 'as new' with lightened mainsprings and require Federal Primers. Mine are box stock and ignite all primers. Her's have walnut grips, mine faux ivory.
All have trigger pulls we wouldn't mess with.
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First a CAVEAT: I am not a fan of Colt. Hugely over-priced. Recent quality has sucked. All the other referenced stuff is none the less true. A Colt will hold it's value longer. You probably won't live long enough for it to appreciate enough to be an investment. They were made to be shot ... so shoot them.
They will need action work. They are going to be rough and over-sprung. Lots of stone work, polishing and R&R the OEM springs.
Twer it I. I'd opt for a pair of Pietta built GW IIs. Well made. The only thing they really need right out of the box is a change of Main Spring and whacking off the end of the base pin (two position dealy). And you get (as you mentioned) two nice new guns for the price of ONE Colt.
Your call Navy 47. We're a Lighthouse ;D
Once again, Coffinmaker nailed it.
I've bought a handful of new 3rd Generation Colt's with every intention of converting them into used revolvers. (In fact at this very moment I have a new-in-the-box, 37 year old 5 1/2" .44 Special in the safe that will go on the auction block soon.) Then I pull back the oversprung hammer and feel the gritty action. Then notice the overbuffed finished and marginally fitted parts. The last one I had in 45 Colt had cylinder throats that measured from .454" to .456", ridiculous!
This is an example of a fairly recent (2017) Uberti I got from Dixie Gun Works last year. It is built and fit the way a new Colt should be, yet it cost about 1/4 the price of a 3rd Generation Colt. In fact they're still on sale for $450 (http://still on sale for $450)
(https://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h6/308Scout/Single%20Actions/Uberti%2032-20/Uberti%2032-20-3_zpswtygfpxg.jpg) (http://s60.photobucket.com/user/308Scout/media/Single%20Actions/Uberti%2032-20/Uberti%2032-20-3_zpswtygfpxg.jpg.html)
I have little experience with the Pietta's, but if CM says they're good to go, then I'd bank on it.
CHT
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I am new here and found this thread very interesting, Here are some comments on me experience with Colt SAA guns and Italian clones. I bought a Colt SAA 5.5" in .357 mag back in 1977 for $399.00. I have shot it but mostly with .38 special ammo. After shooting it for a month or so, the bluing on the front of each chamber was burned off, presumbly by slightly too much gap between cylinder and forcing cone. After a few more months it began to form bolt drag marks around the cylinder. The CCH on the frame was nothing to write home about and was mostly just gray and tan, no CCH on hammer; bluing was good. That being said, I have two Italian clones and have shot them for the last couple of months. My ASM-EMF 4.75" New Dakota in .45 Colt Is a beautifully built gun and the CCH on frame and hammer is superb, Bluing is excellent as well. My EMF-Pietta Great Western II Deluxe Californian .357 is like a work of art with excellent fit and finish and the CCH and bluing are fantastic. Neither one shows wear on ant part of the cylinder. IMHO, the Italian Colt clones are just as good and in some cases better than Colts. Would I buy another Colt SAA? Doubtful' especially when the clones are of such high quality!
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Well, no matter the cost of the revolver, all S.A.s can benefit from a fine tuning /action setup. Obviously, some need more attention than others as far as extending parts life as well as ease of function. Likewise, a setup for competition can done on pretty much all copies of Colts and Remingtons.
If nothing is done, a factory offering can have an "ill" setup which leads to early failure. Therein is the reason for correcting (tuning) a brand new revolver.
Mike
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You're not going to believe this...
Taylor's & Company totally screwed up my custom gun order.
I picked up my order today from my FFL and found what I received was not what I ordered, they sent me two 1875 Army Outlaw's with plain grips.
They were supposed to be as I mentioned in an post earlier, they were supposed to be two 'The Gunfighter Checkered' with consecutive serial numbers in .45 long Colt, 5.5" barrels in the charcoal blued finish.
https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/hand-guns/cartridge-revolvers/1873-single-actions/the-gunfighter-checkered.html
I can't believe this... I even paid extra to have them both Taylor tuned ($146.00 each, $292 total)
The biggest discrepancy on their part was they never sent me an invoice before the guns were started or in the process, all they did was they took my order by phone then I had to wait until they came in from Italy.
The only invoice I got was by email as the guns were already being shipped, on their way to my FFL.
They never even verified anything when I spoke to them by phone, when they charged it to my credit card.
I unfortunately found this out after 5 pm so I left a message on Taylor's voicemail.
I also had to pay $75 for the double FFL fees and the background check.
I patiently waited for over three months for these to come from the manufacturer in Italy.
What recourse do I have if they choose to not make this right, other than disputing the charge with my credit card? :'(
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Ooh, that's not good. Well, mistakes do happen. Here's what I would expect they might do: you send the guns back, wait for a new pair from Uberti (I'm assuming the special order was because of the charcoal blue, since that's not the standard finish), and then they will tune those and send them to you, with hopefully some nice swag for your trouble. Either that, or return the guns for a full refund, which still leaves you where you started. Good luck.
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Ooh, that's not good. Well, mistakes do happen. Here's what I would expect they might do: you send the guns back, wait for a new pair from Uberti (I'm assuming the special order was because of the charcoal blue, since that's not the standard finish), and then they will tune those and send them to you, with hopefully some nice swag for your trouble. Either that, or return the guns for a full refund, which still leaves you where you started. Good luck.
The only problem with being without any SAA's and put back to square one is, I had Cochise Leather custom make me a complete gun rig and now I have nothing to fill it.
The manager I spoke to at my FFL said maybe... Taylor's can expedite me the right ones I ordered instead of me having to wait as long as I did, but I would think that would be up to the manufacturer in Italy and depend on how backed up they are.
All I hope and expect is that Taylor's won't give me a hard time and make it right as best they can.
I'm already SOL on the $75.00 fee I paid to the FFL and even that I had no control over as the FFL had me do the paperwork and pay for everything first, before they even brought the guns out to me at the front counter. :-\
Has anyone had this happen to them or know of someone who has had the exact same thing happen to them by Taylor's & Company? (https://www.smithandwessonforums.com/forum/images/smilies/th_confused0024.gif)
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No Sir ....
They should make the correction
Can't grasp why you accepted them at the FFL :-\
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They should make it right and send you return postage and ins to ship the revolvers back to them. How hard is it to send an invoice via email? Did they do the action work on these? Or is there another cowboy somewhere totally amazed that he got upgraded Colts instead of his base model Rems? Or were your guns never even built? I waited almost a year for an 1866 Uberti Winchester from Cimarron with several false alarms that my rifle was here only to be told it wasn?t. But it was worth the wait. Good luck, keep us posted.
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I am quite surprised about your comments of Taylor's Customer Service. I have dealt with them on several occasions and have always been pleased. They have the reputation of being quite reliable and responsible. I do not remember his name now but their gun tuner is supposed to have a national reputation.
Lucky
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Cody Conagher..and I agree Taylor's Customer Service is tops drawer
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Well, the order is in...
2 checkered 'Gunfighters' in charcoal blue(special order), 5.5" barrels, .45 long Colt, Taylor tuned, $800+ a piece.
They said they are going to 'try' to get them ordered with consecutive serial numbers.
Taylor's said it's a custom order so it'll take about 90 days give or take.
This post dated September 23rd, 2019 is actual proof of what I ordered, I wrote everything I wanted down beforehand and read it off to Taylor's when I placed the order and that's the same piece of paper I used to put the information up on this forum(I still have it here and its correct), yet... I just got off the phone with Teresa and she swore I ordered two uncheckered, 1875 Outlaws when I did not, they are two totally different guns.
She didn't want to own up to the fact that she screwed up my order, that showed me how inefficient and how fly-by-night Taylor's & Company really is, regardless of who may have received their order correctly in the past.
One thing I'm sure of, this is not an isolated incident, if they did this to me, they did it to numerous others.
They never sent me anything nor did they take a deposit, no invoice or receipt or sales slip until the guns were on the way to me, that is where the huge oversight lies on Taylor's shoulders, had they done so and the Outlaws were on it instead of the checkered Gunfighters, I would have caught it right off.
She made my worst fears come true, she totally denied making the mistake AND she bold face lied about our last conversation when she herself told me the guns did in fact have checkered grips when they did not.
I asked her about this because the girl I spoke to before that call said the guns came in and did not have checkered grips as they should have.
The problem is on Taylor's failure in NOT sending you an invoice once you place an order.
Thanks to Taylor's & Company I'm sitting here right now with a knot in my stomach disheartened and hopping mad as I waited patiently for almost 4 months and now I have nothing to show for it...
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No Sir ....
They should make the correction
Can't grasp why you accepted them at the FFL :-\
I wasn't given them until after all the paperwork was done and the fees were paid, only then had I discovered they were the wrong ones.
This has taught me, in the future with any FFL transfer I will ask to see what they have before I do anything...
Its no problem, my FFL said they would credit me what I was charged.
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Ummmm " I wasn't given them until after all the paperwork was done and the fees were paid, only then did I discovered they were the wrong ones "
I don't think that is even legal ...surely not good business... FFL said they would credit me what I was charged. GOOD !
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Ummmm " I wasn't given them until after all the paperwork was done and the fees were paid, only then did I discovered they were the wrong ones "
I don't think that is even legal ...surely not good business... FFL said they would credit me what I was charged. GOOD !
(https://www.rig-talk.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_thumbs1.gif)
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Well... the guns are on their way back to Taylor's by way of my FFL.
The only question left is, what do I do now? (https://www.rig-talk.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
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For sure there was a substantial price difference between the upgraded special order pistols you ordered and the stock ones you received. How did they explain the difference in what you paid? They charged you for the nicer ones not the others, that alone proves your argument that you ordered what you ordered. Guess you?ll have to start searching again when you get your refund or are you going to give them a second chance?
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For sure there was a substantial price difference between the upgraded special order pistols you ordered and the stock ones you received. How did they explain the difference in what you paid? They charged you for the nicer ones not the others, that alone proves your argument that you ordered what you ordered. Guess you?ll have to start searching again when you get your refund or are you going to give them a second chance?
You're right, that shows how slick Taylor's was trying to be with my order.
Oh no... them shooting irons are heading back to them for a full refund, after I receive my money back, I'm done with Taylor's for good.
When I gave the guns back to my FFL the manager said HE would order me a consecutively serial numbered set in the finish and style I wanted directly from Uberti and I'd immediately have a receipt completely detailing what I was ordering before the order went in. ;D
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Well if it ends well ....Bobs your Uncle
lets us know in 10 or twelve months when your guns reach customs ...
I still can't get past your FFL's condition
" I wasn't given them until after all the paperwork was done and the fees were paid, only then did I discovered they were the wrong ones "
You are saying you had no hands on before he got his dues ? ....that's just nuts !
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Actually ... NO. Nor do or would I expect too. I've only been doing business with Taylors for around 20 years. Nothing but exemplary.
I also have some issue with your purported experience with your FFL whom also CANNOT order direct to or from Uberti.
Might I suggest you may have better results by taking up Golf??
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Actually ... NO. Nor do or would I expect too. I've only been doing business with Taylors for around 20 years. Nothing but exemplary.
I also have some issue with your purported experience with your FFL whom also CANNOT order direct to or from Uberti.
Might I suggest you may have better results by taking up Golf??
I have no idea what you are talking about but my recent experience with Taylor's pretty much craps all over anyone's assessment of them being 'exemplary' as they are on the contrary, regardless of others (like yourself), who may have come through unscathed prior, their (Teresa's), flat out denial and negative attitude is the biggest factor that speaks volumes about them.
With my FFL saying they can ordering them for me, they are listed on Uberti's website as being one of their dealers, how do you know what they can and can't do? you don't even know who they are...
Might I suggest you develop better character by keeping an open mind and not be a sarcastic shill for Taylor's & Company??
Nuff said...
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Well the maker of Coffins is partly correct ... where your FFL can order from Uberti USA Accokeek, Maryland AKA Stoeger Industries
But not Uberti in Brescia as I doubt he has a Import lic.
"if" Accokeek ( Stoeger Industries ) has the El Patron in stock you may fair well ...if not! well you're on a waiting list and plan on 8 months + wait.
I don't presume to know what your dealings with Taylor's was is or will be...
I'll will tell you this I first dealt with Tammy in the 80's, I bought many and had many transactions I:E Movie Props and some of my own guns..
I'm still of the opinion your chosen FFL ... is in word suspect ....no way , no way would I fill out or pay without first examining the guns .
If you get your money "if" and if you are fortunate not to loose your FFL fee & BG check $$ ...I would not walk away from that FFL I'd run.
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Well the maker of Coffins is partly correct ... where your FFL can order from Uberti USA Accokeek, Maryland AKA Stoeger Industries
But not Uberti in Brescia as I doubt he has a Import lic.
"if" Accokeek ( Stoeger Industries ) has the El Patron in stock you may fair well ...if not! well you're on a waiting list and plan on 8 months + wait.
I don't presume to know what your dealings with Taylor's was is or will be...
I'll will tell you this I first dealt with Tammy in the 80's, I bought many and had many transactions I:E Movie Props and some of my own guns..
I'm still of the opinion your chosen FFL ... is in word suspect ....no way , no way would I fill out or pay without first examining the guns .
If you get your money "if" and if you are fortunate not to loose your FFL fee & BG check $$ ...I would not walk away from that FFL I'd run.
Have absolutely no doubt in your mind... I WILL be getting a full refund from Taylor's as they said they would do so(and I have it confirmed in writing), 'if' for some reason they decided to do differently, I will dispute the charge with my credit card and Taylor's can deal with them, as I have pictures and everything documented as proof.
I may do as I originally wanted to do and bite the bullet (no pun intended), and get a couple of real Colts NIB from a seller that's asking a reasonable price for the set, and actually use them.
On the wait time, I have no idea as that question has not been established yet, if I decide to place another order for a couple of Italian replicas, we'll just see what's what when the time comes.
With my FFL, unlike Taylor's, at least they admitted they made a mistake and in turn made it right (with a positive attitude), your conclusion about my FFL I would warn to anyone thinking about buying through Taylor's & Company, "don't walk away, run!"...
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Well Dispatch. You have managed run a string of baseless accusations, Mud slinging and incipient whining and complaining about a well respected vendor. Your tirade is based on a single experience, compounded by YOU accepting merchandise in an upside down manner. YOUR fault.
Now, the vendor and the FFL have both, by YOUR description, stated they are going to make it right. Until you have product in hand, that should be the end of it. You're going to be out a little time and a little frustration which, if you're an adult, you'll get over. You should "get over it" quietly, on your own time. Disparaging a Business, an Individual Service Provider or "Others" has no place on a dedicated public forum.
Are you perchance running for public office?? You're beating this expired Equine like a Politician.
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I wouldn't get into a canoe with this guy!
Lucky
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In reference to the OPs original question, Colt vs Clone. I purchased a Pietta Frontier Stainless from Cimarron about 6 months ago and it is outstanding, fit and finish. It's a 357 mag with a 7.5" barrel. Timing is perfect. Virtually zero end shake, BC gap is between 3 and 4 thousandths. The end of the muzzle is rounded which gives a nice appearance compared to most that are just cut flat.
I'm thinking about having Mike put in a bolt block and perform his tuning magic elsewhere though it doesn't feel it needs it. He's currently working on my 1872 Open top by Uberti for lots of needed corrections and tuning. My open top was also purchased from Cimarron.
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Regarding Taylors, I recently found they had a rear sight I needed and ordered it. Package arrived 2 days later but had a trigger in it. I called them and they realized that my order and someone else's had been switched. The sight arrived 3 days later with a shipping notice to return the trigger. They treated me very nicely and were very professional.
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Regarding Taylors, I recently found they had a rear sight I needed and ordered it. Package arrived 2 days later but had a trigger in it. I called them and they realized that my order and someone else's had been switched. The sight arrived 3 days later with a shipping notice to return the trigger. They treated me very nicely and were very professional.
I know Sue Hawkins and Tammy Loy at Taylors and they are superb owners and treat their customers like gold.
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I'm surprised someone hasn't invoked the stock excuse for poor or delayed service these days. Blame it on COVID. That would cover everything. (no smiling face today)
Dave
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I'm sure they picked the best carrier for these times. Although their employees have to stop and change horses every ten miles or so, you have to expect slight delays.
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Yep, it's a shame you have to do that these days. If your "Rig" doesn't meet Cali's latest "clean" requirements, you can't go to the docks for them to unload cargo!!! Thank God these S.OB.'s are looking out for our "well being". Of course only if you're vaccinated!!! Gas is $3.25 now in the East, over $6 in the " wokest" state!!! LoL!!! Keep digging . . . !!!!!
Mike
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Well Dispatch. You have managed run a string of baseless accusations, Mud slinging and incipient whining and complaining about a well respected vendor. Your tirade is based on a single experience, compounded by YOU accepting merchandise in an upside down manner. YOUR fault.
Now, the vendor and the FFL have both, by YOUR description, stated they are going to make it right. Until you have product in hand, that should be the end of it. You're going to be out a little time and a little frustration which, if you're an adult, you'll get over. You should "get over it" quietly, on your own time. Disparaging a Business, an Individual Service Provider or "Others" has no place on a dedicated public forum.
Are you perchance running for public office?? You're beating this expired Equine like a Politician.
Something screwy with this whole story (maybe at both ends but certainly at the buyer end) who forks out 1600 bucks for anything over the phone without getting documentation ? --- thats nuts! ----order confirmation, invoice, receipt for your money, with the details of what you paid for ---everybody does that !!! - if you ask for it and dont see it pronto - pick up the phone - soon as ya see it ya check the details. Ya dont leave something like this floating around in cyberspace for months ya just dont...........................
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I realize this is an old thread. Pietta, Colt , Uberti - any of them can have a bad day. Really, truly you should inspect them before buying. While the Colts can be pretty expensive they can also be pretty good. Same goes for Uberti. Never had a Pietta product but I bet they can have good days and bad too.
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Hmmm interesting thread... I recall the content....
The original poster original question was basically and innocent enough....
and evolved into a sore point and vendor bashing :
Well, let's see what's happened it in the 3 years since the gent last posted ..
Mr. Dispatch the OP hasn't been active in over 3 years...
Taylor's is still alive and well.... Beretta/Uberti is also.
Colt has been sold to the Czech-based parent company of CZ.
Pietta bought EMF.
And Vintage Colts will still command high prices.
I hope all turned out well for Mr. Dispatch and he got his guns :)
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I'm just getting in to CAS and recently purchased a pair of Evil Roy's directly from Cimarron with sequential serial numbers.