Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Shotguns => Topic started by: Dave T on December 31, 2020, 11:25:45 AM
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It would appear that like most ammunition and primers, 12ga brass shotgun shells are a thing of the past. I spent a good part of yesterday looking for a box (even used ones) but came up empty handed. I had no idea there was that much jewelry made from shotgun shells! LOL
If anyone here has some used 12ga brass shells they've given up on, or if anyone knows of a source please speak up. Other wise I'll not be buying that double hammer coach gun I have my eye on. Ya can't buy regular shotgun ammo and if I can't load BP, the heck with it. (sad face goes here)
Dave
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You can easily load the True Powder in Plastic cases. I pour the powder in separately, with a dipper.
I haven't looked for brass cases recently as I seem to have a lifetime supply. Old paper shells are as PC as brass, actually moreso, but hard to shuck-eject. I have some Remington NITRO 27 in gold coloring that I use. Don't bother with cheep discount hulls as they pinhole way too soon.
You might have to experiment, but any Remington hull seems to shuck out the easiest for me. You might also try roll crimping or the Hartin crimp?
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... have some Remington NITRO 27 in gold coloring that I use....
When I load in plastic hulls, that is what I use. They look sort of like brass shells. :) I can get at least 5 loadings using real BP. I'll use the similar green STS if I run out of gold ones.
I have an unopened box of REM-UMC brass hulls that I am saving. I figure the value will only go up.
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My only experience loading black powder in 12ga was with a bunch of old Alcan brass 12g shells I found at a gun show back about 1986-87. They took a special size primer (can't remember the particulars now) but I found a 1000 of them in a shop that specialized in shotgun stuff. Still had all the brass and a couple hundred primers left when I sold off all that stuff to start my own business in 1995.
I have no idea how to do a roll crimp on a paper/plastic shell. Anywhere I can go to learn about this? I don't do well with internet searches. LOL
Dave
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>:( Harrumpff >:(
I'm afraid I can't make that Last Great Leap of Desperation. I don't see Ammunition, Reloading Primers, Percussion Caps, Reloading Brass nor 12Ga Brass as a "Thing of the Past". Currently in short supply?? Sure. Gone forever?? Nah.
The manufacturers will be working hard to get their production staff back to work and put the goodies we desire back in the supply chain. It may well take a Day or Six, but it is going to get better. And Better.
So . . . Go ahead and pick up that coveted Hammer Double. I did. I am also about to pick up a nice brandy Knew-Two-Ewe handguns. Suppository Guns. Ain't that just about enough to Chap yer As. . . . Yep. Suppository Shooters. Humdingers!!
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Dave, take a plastic hull, load 60 grains of FFg, then a Claybuster 1138-12 wad, then 1-1/8 ounce of shot. Crimp and shoot!
You'll get some of the plastic from the wad adhere to the barrel, but a short Moose Milk spray down and soak, then it will push right out with a patch.
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:) Well Dang ;)
In all honesty, I find the "Snake Skin" to be a curiosity. At a couple of points during a Match, I look down the tubes and wonder. The tubes look like a Sewer Pipe. Makes one wonder if they will ever clean.
Yep. The tubes will certainly clean. Amazing. At some point the week after a match I remember to clean guns. I squirt a fair amount of PAM down the barrels an let 'em sit for a couple of minutes then shove a brush, also PAM'd down the bore and PRESTO - CHANGEO .... clean tubes.
Incidentally - I also have and use some aerosol cans of Windshield Cleaner from the local Windshield repair shop. At stuff works a treat too. Healthy squirt down the bores, out it comes. Then, there is the old standby. Warm/Hot Water. Same same result. No sweaty da.
Plastic wads give me the "Over-Powder" the "Cushion" and the "Shot Cup" all in one. Keeps loading All Brass Hulls really really simple and fast.
Is it SPRING YET!!!
Stay Safe
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I have no idea how to do a roll crimp on a paper/plastic shell. Anywhere I can go to learn about this? I don't do well with internet searches. LOL
Dave
Roll crimps or Hartin crimps are a "nice to know" and not necessary to make sound and fury. Lots of info here on cascity to satisfy your curiosity through the search function. Roll crimps require a roll crimp head, the best is from "precision". The Hartin crimp can be done on a regular press without adjustments. Both are useful if you have 2.5 inch chambers. Over shot cards can be punched from a milk carton with a 5/8" hollow punch.
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You can easily load the True Powder in Plastic cases. I pour the powder in separately, with a dipper.
You might have to experiment, but any Remington hull seems to shuck out the easiest for me. You might also try roll crimping or the Hartin crimp?
Sir, can you explain or put a link to what you refer to as a 'Hartin Crimp'? The only thing I can find is a Harting Crimp tool. But it does not look like something that could be used on shotgun shells. ??? I can roll crimp but have never heard of Hartin Crimps.
Thanks
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Greetings My Good Netizens
Her is the poop on the Hartin Crimp, As our friend Sir Charles posted in the past
Hope this helps
Snip........
Charles deMouton-Black
Re: Black powder and plastic hulls...
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2015, 05:09:48 PM »
Here is a quote from a post of mine back in 2008;
"If you have 2 3/4" chambers, star crimps with paper, or plastic work great. DD has one of your options, that is to get shorter wads.
If you want to try shorter, 2 1/2" cases, but not bother with roll crimp tools, etc., try the JAM ROLL. Apparently an earlier inventor of this concept was named Hartin, and it can be called the "Hartin crimp".
-Trim cases
-load your favorite recipe. Adjust the load to leave about 3/8" (Or a bit less) of clearance from the load to the lip of the case
-top the load with an over shot card. No O/S wads? For 20 ga., bash some out of a wax paper milk carton with a 5/8" punch.
-Run the loaded case through your shotshell press's crimp start and crimp stations. I've tested this crimp on a 12 ga. MEC Grabber, and a 16 ga. MEC 600Jr."
From "16ga.com", a thread with visuals (12 Dec15, on page two)
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18347&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=hartin+crimp&start=15
The result is that the folds of the case mouth are turned in on the O/S wad, which is still visible as a star shape. A bonus is that the plastic doesn't get heat hardened and the case can be re loaded many more times.
Endsnip.....
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:) Hey Perfesser ;)
Much Garcia :D Never seen that before. Of course, I have NEVER reloaded plastic shotgun hulls either. In my Heathen Smokeless days, I found factory AAs (Feather Lights) from Wally World to be as cheap and OH SO much easier. Never bothered.
Then I became enlightened. Following my enlightenment, I discovered just how easy it is to load All Brass Hulls. Never looked back. I have taken several steps to make All Brass Hull loading more convenient and reliable but ALL BRASS HULLS ROCK!!!
But that is a real interesting way to load Plastic Hulls. I have been offered a "Load All" for a very appealing price (Free), and have access to a lifetime supply of one fired Plastic hulls. Just nowhere near the COOL factor.
Stay Safe
PS: An Afterthought. I had a thought (Oh Oh The PAIN!!) IT'S gonna be a long winter. I may well need a "project." A useful, useable project. After all, Plastic hulls do shuck out a tiny bit bedder dan Brass. Hummmmmmmmmmm.
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Thank you, that make sense to me now. A specific internet search did not bring that up. Appreciate.
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Ah My Dear Coffin
Back when I was in a club and shooting trap 3 times a week I bought a nice big MEC!
Awesome thing, pull the lever, shove in an empty, churned out the 12 ga shells like a little conveyor factory. of course when something jammed up it was ... unfortunate.
So I sold that and the rem 1100’s but got a Lee Loader ...
That thing is simple, neat, easy to work, and easy to fix. If anything breaks, a piece of aluminum and JB Weld will handle it! I love old school.
Speaking of old school, as I went collecting other peoples garbage, I ended up with several ( ie more than two) old iron presses, and at least two are old school monster iron ( ca 1950 ish? ) 12 ga presses...
I need to do some searching and restoring, methinks...
Also In my pile of scheiss precious objects I have an antique shotshell kit with the ubiquitous roll crimper! I need to make that thing work for 2.5 inch paper shells....
Regarding the unavailability of brass shotshells ... where there is a will , there is a way! I have been experimenting with making my own shells for my IAB Sharps 1863 percussion paper cutter, and have several protoypes, some made entire of soldered plumbing bits, some made of 28 ga shells bottoms and soldered on tubing, and there is always the heavy machined brass cartridges. One outfit even made the extra thick cases such as the .44-100 Ballard Everlasting, which last darn near forever...
So if one wanted, one could slowly turn out a bunch of cases on a little lathe...
Where there are machine tools, there is a way....
“Take that Cambridge Scholars”
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Why did I suggest using a dipper to insert the gunpowder?
Because;
1. There is a slight possibility of static electricity. Some poh-pooh this and say "NO proof". Some makers like Lyman have created static-proof powder measures to solve this little "problem".
2. Dippers work! Lee has these wonderful sets and I have both red and yellow series. (I also make dippers from empty cartridge cases. Leave the fired primer in and look for the one that fits your load or trim to suit.) They are no slower than removing a case from the loader to dump with a powder measure and precision is easy to achieve by uniformity of handling technique.
3. As you get fewer loads per pound from BP than fad-powder, I load many more fad loads than with the true gunpowder, saving that for matches, and practising with the slightly cheaper smokeless loads.
SMOKELESS IS JUST A FAD!
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:) SIR CHARLES ;)
Absolutely. Yesssss Indeed!! When loading Brass Hulls, I do da dip. Made my scoop from a fired cartridge case. Big Rifle thing. Don't remember what it was. My loading block holds 30 Hulls. Funnel with the scoop doesn't take any time atall.
Happy New Year
Stay Safe
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Some time ago I modified the charge bar on one of my MEC grabbers to load black powder. Bored out the shot and powder holes to the maximum possible with the bar. I then made aluminum bushings in various sizes to drop the desired loads. I have loaded hundreds if not thousands of shot shells with no problems. As for static electricity, it has been proven that there is not enough heat in a spark to ignite black powder.
Forgot, you can load brass shells also.
Lucky
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Plastic wads give me the "Over-Powder" the "Cushion" and the "Shot Cup" all in one. Keeps loading All Brass Hulls really really simple and fast.
Is it SPRING YET!!!
Stay Safe
Do you use 10 ga plastic wads?
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:) Marshal Dillon ;)
Yes . . er . . No. I was using Ballistic Products 1044 10Ga wads. they worked a real treat, except, had to cut the cup petals back for a 1 ounce pay load. Not difficult but some annoying. So I switched to BP Spitfire 12Ga wads that have a 1 ounce shot cup to start with. I have always dropped the plastic wad in on top of the powder charge.
Yes, I do get some snake skin but it cleans out so easily I don't worry about it.
Stay Safe Out There
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:) Marshal Dillon ;)
So I switched to BP Spitfire 12Ga wads that have a 1 ounce shot cup to start with. I have always dropped the plastic wad in on top of the powder charge.
Stay Safe Out There
When i do that, the wads are smaller then the inside of my brass case, letting the powder flow up around the wad. Do you put over powder card in before the wad?
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PM sent regarding 12 ga brass shells.
wM1
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:) Marshal Dillon ;)
No, I don't use and Over Powder wad. I use to. You certainly can. No harm no foul although I do have a CAVEAT: I have been loading with 2F APP for the last several years and have had no problem with APP coming up around the wad. I don't see any reason not to use an over powder wad. I didn't see any difference, just made loading faster to eliminate it. Not much faster at that.
Stay Safe Out There
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I have some Rocky Mountain 12 gauge brass and load with 80 grains of bp, over powder card and usually a wad. I trimmed down a 100 grain spout to 80 and put it on my flask, works great. Sometimes I use a few layers of wasp nest in place of the card/wad, then equal amount of shot and a card held in place with elmers. They work great. I deprime with a long nail and seat the new primer with a dowel. I love telling some friends who are avid trap shooters that I load with a hammer, nail and dowel. My brother in law wanted to know if I was leaving him the shells in my will because they are way more stout than the others on the market. I cant really tell a difference with the wasp nest vs card/wad, but I never really patterned the gun.
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I have half a dozen of the Rocky Mountain 12ga shells. But the primer pockets on mine are so dang tight that both depriming and priming are very, very difficult (need Harley Davidson size hammer), so I haven't used them in a long time.
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Mine love the 209s They are a bit of a tap to get out, but after a good cleaning, they seat perfectly.
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Dave I'm trying to figure out how I can get up to meet you up there.
wM1
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Dave I'm trying to figure out how I can get up to meet you up there.
wM1
Let me know and we'll work it out.
Dave
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How you fixed for BP or BP subs? I might could bring a pound or two if ya need any.
wM1
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What a kind and generous offer. Thank you but the only thing I would be in need of are SG primers. I have none.
Dave
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PS: An Afterthought. I had a thought (Oh Oh The PAIN!!) IT'S gonna be a long winter. I may well need a "project." A useful, useable project. After all, Plastic hulls do shuck out a tiny bit bedder dan Brass. Hummmmmmmmmmm.
My (admittedly very limited) experience is different - I'd say it depends on the brass shells. My Magtech brass shuck about the same as plastic, I haven't yet been able to discern better or worse. But my RMC brass shells never hang up on me, always shuck fine.
Again, limited. I've shucked no more than 75-100 each of the brass shells. Many 100's of plastic though.
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:) Well, well ;)
It's a fact I'm not fast anymore. Not particularly quick either. So "speed" is no issue. Therefore, I concentrate on "looking good" when I do it. If yer not gonna win it, look good while your at it!!
So. That means Hammer Double Shotguns. Yep, Double Guns are the biz. Lookin good and FUN to boot. That naturally morphs into All Brass Hulls for said Hammer Double. Brass Hulls just OOUZE cowboy. They just look SO right. And if happen to get a sticky one, it just doesn't matter atall.
Be Safe Out There
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Howdy Coffin,
Back when I took my mobile mercantile, Rum Soaked Crooks (named after the founders), to shoots, we had a motto that summed up your thought.
"A Great Outfit is Remembered Long After a Lackluster Shooting Performance is Forgotten."
Rev. Chase
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;D
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:) Abilene ;)
Absolutely SUPERB sign and Slogan!! Gotta Love It you betcha
Lookin Good Out There :D
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About 35 years ago, I got a box of brass Remington Ducks Unlimited 2.75" #5. Are the brass cases expensive enough to make disassembling/selling these worthwhile?
I have great-grandpa's underlever W.Richards 12 ga sxs that I now use commercial 12 ga black powder loads in, but those are plastic hulled.
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Howdy Ketchums,
the Ducks Unlimited hulls might be berdan primed, which reduces their value. And since Magtech hulls are only about a buck apiece, there's not going to be too much value to the DU hulls. There were reports of some of them splitting on the first firing - I don't know why. I'm thinking the box of shells might be worth a little more to some collector than splitting them up, but don't quote me on that.
Where are you finding commercial BP loads? Haven't seen any of those in a while. Buffalo Arms?
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Well, they're Remington, but I guess they could be Berdan - never thought of that.
Buffalo Arms is exactly the vendor - not cheap, but they have 12 gauge 7.5 target or dove loads, #5s in a field load, and buckshot.
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:) Ketchums ;)
I'm in with Abilene. I'm certain your DU Brassies would be worth more on the Collector market than disassembled for the hulls. As Abilene mentioned, MagTech are usually only about a buck a hull, and usually readily available. I'd keep 'em together.
Play Safe Out There
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You're probably right....$1 per hull is cheaper than I thought was available.
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:) Ketchums ;)
There is a manufacturer of All Brass hulls, that make them by machining rather than extrusion. I don't remember who they are but there hulls are between 8 n 10 bucks a hull. Zuper Zpensive. Magtech are quite reasonable.
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I believe you are referring to Rocky Mountain Cartridge. Their shells are awesome. I have 10. Had 10 Magtech at one point. You have to work around to get them to accept 209 primers, far more available at the time and I can squish them between my fingers. After I had 3 magtech split, I went with RMC and chucked the magtech. They are the last 10 shotgun shells I will ever need to buy. My brother-in-law wants them when I croak, which I hope is a goodly time off.
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I thought I had more Winchester hulls, but current count shows I have 1 Winchester, about 30 Rem-UMC, about 40 Alcan, and 6 Rocky Mountain Cartridge. The Alcans use special primers that look like 209's but are smaller. Winch and REM-UMC are the same size, and same as Magtech. The Alcans are somewhere between the REM-UMC and RMC in thickness, although it is hard to tell in the photo. The RMC can be easily seen to be thickest. Even the thin hulls last nearly forever if the mouth is never crimped. Some of my hulls have been loaded over 50 times. A couple had a small split when I got them, but so far only a single hull has had that split get larger. Of course, they are a bit slower loading into the shotgun chambers when there is no crimp, but I'm not out for speed when using these. :)
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:) Hey Abilene ;)
Ditto!! I've been loading the same pile of Magtech hulls for several Lustrum. Never had one split. Never had to resize one (unless some ham hock stepped on one). I still have 75 New in Box just incase. Never needed em.
Have Fun Out There.
PS: At my age, speed is now an oxymoron. Fast is some humorous. I still get to the end of the stage though.