Belgium Made Remington New Model Army Cartridge Conversion

[drjldavis]

I picked up a Remington New Model Army that has been converted to a cartridge.  It is an original Remington with Belgium proof marks on the cylinder and right side of the barrel flat just in front of the cylinder.  Does anyone know who made copies of the Remington New Model Army back in the Civil War days?

[Major 2]

Perhaps the Nagant Brothers ....I have not researched much beyond Contract Belgian Colts...
I'll bet Long Johns Wolf will know 

[Montana Slim]

You migth try searching past listings at the "Rock Island Auction" web-site. They featured a large nuber of period copies of (predominantly ) Colt copies....I believe there were some Remington's as well.

I recall because apparently some of the more crude-looking copies brought more $$ than a nice working example of the real-deal 

Regards,
Slim

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[Hoof Hearted]

Removed since Dr Jim edited his original post!

[Long Johns Wolf]

You got yourself an interesting Remington conversion there Dr. Jim.
Are you sure it is an Army and not a Navy conversion? They seem to be about the same size, Army has 8" and Navy 7,5" barrel.
A number of Remington C&B pistols and early conversions were sold to France for the Franco-Prussion War 1870/71. A number of these revolvers are known today with Belgian proof marks after they were (re-) worked by Belgian gunsmiths and sold on the European market. Some found their way back home to the USA.
Long Johns Wolf

[drjldavis]

Well, much thanks to Wolf, we have been able to put together the history of this Remington New Model Army.  It is an original Remington made New Model Army that has a factory conversion to .44 Henry Rim Fire.  It ended up in Europe as possibly part of a shipment of firearms used in the Franco-Prussian War and somehow ended up in Belgium where all the Belgium inspector and proof marks were applied.  It then found its way back to the U.S.

Wolf put in a lot of time and effort to put together this information with the help of the collectors in Belgium and Germany.  It is refreshing to know that there still is a very large population internationally that are interested in firearms and the history connected with them.  And thanks to the internet and Forums such as Scorrs this information is shared internationally.

Wolf has also been chief researcher in tracking down information on another very interesting custom replica Remington New Model Army with Belgium marking that belonged to William B. Edwards.  This information is still being prepared as a chapter in the replica revolver guide book hopefully to be published in the, now, very near future.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Dr. Jim: thanks for the kind and encouraging words but ... you are the professor & a am the student.
And I still have a long way to go.
Long Johns Wolf

[michael.dilley]

I wanted to say thank you for your posts on this one. I also have an 1861 original Remington that was most likely sent over to the German - Prussian war of 1879/71. At some point the weapon was sent to Belgium for conversion. They did an excellent job and very clean. This one made it back to the USA and was purchased by a collector who recently passed away and I then Bought it as i have never seen one converted like this one. The Belgium gunsmith Dove tailed the gate in and used a Webley extractor system which pushes into the center chamber of the cylinder. They removed  the original loading lever and filled in the gaps. I have tried to find out who or which company in Belgium Might have done this, but no luck so far. I have only ever seen two of this type of conversions. the other one was a Remington belt revolver which had recently sold on an auction site. they also had no clue who or where that firearm had come from. The Cylinder has the following proof marks: On Cylinder = ECG with star below (France 1810 / Black powder) , R with star above (Inspector Mark), the #1, & A straight line with #2 Could be 2l, or l2,The last one which is located on the cylinder barrel i can not make out. - On Frame = Underneath of top strap, 7, Serial# under grip is: 39645 or 39C45 (the 9 & 6 both look like a C in opposite directions, so hard to tell what it really might be. I have tried to gain as much Information on this gun as possible as its heading to a Civil War museum. 

Has anyone seen this type of conversion before with a Webley assembly or have any information that might help me to narrow down where in Belgium it was converted and how many their might be. the other thing I'm trying to find out is: if it was used in the civil war and by who, that has been super hard as Remington does not have any really good records.

[michael.dilley]

I would greatly appreciate any information anyone in the group might have on this Remington 1861, patent date Sept. 14th 1858. New Navy 36 cal. Converted to 38 long Colt center fire.

[King Medallion]

You do realize this is a 13 year old thread?

[michael.dilley]

Dear King,
Yes I do, I figured by continuing on this one, I wouldn't get any redirects back to it. And of course the information in the original post relate to mine. The only difference is mine is not a replica, but only a conversion so only the cylinder is proof marked. I can redo the post into a new conversation if everyone thinks that would be better. I'm new to the group, so I really appreciate all the reply's

Sincerely,

Mike, Arkansas

[Cap'n Redneck]

Personally I see nothing wrong in resurrecting this thread, as the latest posts are closely related to the original posts.

Regarding the interpretation of the proof mark on the cylinder, given as "ECG" in an above post, I beg to differ;  I see this as "ELG" within an oval, which is the proofmark used in Liege, Belgium up until 1893.
(from 1893 the oval was topped by a crown, still with the letters "ELG" within.)

[michael.dilley]

@ Cap'n Redneck,

You are so correct good sir, I di the post a little late and i saw 2 errors. (1) was as you had mentioned the ELG Liege, Belgium proof mark which shows the conversion was done before 1893 (2) The German Prussian war of 1870 / 71 which i believe this firearm was  bought by the French from an American dealer or by Remington directly after the Civil War and sent to France. From what I understand (please correct me if I'm wrong) their were a ton of guns after the Civil war in which the army & Navy had and some were sent to Remington to be converted & updated, while others were sold back to Remington at like $2 a piece by the government, then resold to dealers and France for around $9 to $12 after Remington had refurbished the grips and other items as needed, which is why you see a lot of Remington's with different serial #'s under the grip on the frame and the barrel. I was a little concerned when I first looked at the serial# and saw that the 9 & 6 were not completely marked and looked more like C's But after some research I found it was not that uncommon to see this type of error. The good thing is that my barrel although missing most of the serial# due to conversion, does have the same sequence of starting No.'s so it should be the original barrel and frame. as for the Cylinder, probably not or it could have been cut down. It's really too hard to tell but i do not see any proof marks other then the Belgium ones so....

I can tell you i have looked all over the internet for similar pieces, I can not find any. The only other one I have ever seen with the Webley extractor was a Remington belt revolver but like mine their was no history on it.  So all that is left is to try to verify if it was used in the civil war and the Prussian war. If it was a Colt i could have found all of this out very simply...but its not, lol

Sincerely,

Mike, Arkansas

[Cap'n Redneck]

I agree in Your assessment of the arms dealings of the Remington Company after the Civil War in regards to the aid (or outright war profiteering) they engaged in with the French in 1870.

I cut-and-pasted the following from Wikipedia, to set the record straight as to the name of the conflict:

"The Franco-Prussian War or Franco-German War, often referred to in France as the War of 1870, was a conflict between the Second French Empire and the North German Confederation led by the Kingdom of Prussia."

"Franco" in this case meaning "French", and having nothing to do with the later dictator of Spain, Francisco Franco (1892-1975).