Author Topic: It's Time.  (Read 1602 times)

Offline Niederlander

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2022, 08:06:32 AM »
This is about what happened at Columbine. Police were ordered NOT to try to enter the building before SWAT got there!

But identifying potential unstable individuals is the key to preventing such things before they happen.  Mental health in this country is miserable, especially where kids are concerned! There were signs this character was off the rails. But either his acquaintances didn't or wouldn't alert their parents or LEO, or they were ignored.  Just this morning, there were threats of violence at two schools in the metro-Denver area. Police took action and the individuals both jeuvenals were arrested and the threats averted! It can be done and must be!  More gun laws will not stop the carnage. There are too many ways for illegal availability to happen!
I doubt this was about Columbine, unless their training was decades out of date.  We've been trained for the last fifteen or twenty years that the first officer there immediately advances to the sound of gunfire, confronts the shooter or shooter, and exterminates them.  Many of us had planned to do that even before that became policy.  As a former law enforcement officer, I wouldn't give a plug nickel for ANY of those wannabe peace officers.
"There go those Nebraskans, and all hell couldn't stop them!"

Offline Virgil Lantey

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2022, 08:22:25 AM »
Sorry, River City, I completely disagree.
We don't have a gun problem or AR15 problem or military style weapon problem. We have a people problem. People who are becoming more amoral every day, who can't see the difference between right and wrong, and have no respect for their fellow human beings. Until we confront that reality and find a solution, you can ban every gun and it won't stop this insidious violence.
It would be just as horrific to walk into an elementary school with a gas can, start dousing kids and light a match.
Attacking the guns is just an easy out because society is unable or unwilling to confront the REAL problem of growing social/moral decay.
"Around Dodge City and in the territories out west, there's only one way to handle the killers and the spoilers, and that's with a U.S. Marshall and the smell of...Gunsmoke!"

Offline middletownbob

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2022, 08:29:42 AM »
when we went to HS in the late 60's, early 70's it wasnt uncommon to bring in shotguns etc to go hunting after school or maybe you were on the shooting team...in my opinion, it all started after the invention of the internet! there were plenty of AR's arround then if you wanted one with civilian production starting arround mid 60's..

Offline Cowtown

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2022, 09:00:24 AM »
OK, John. Just what exactly is your proposal?

I did not see my school on your list. I was in a school shooting and I was one targeted by the shooter. Shooter had a list of kids he wanted to "prove something" to and fortunately for me most of the other 9th graders on that same list were at 1st lunch period and I was in Algebra class on the other side of the school when the 14 year old shooter came in and started hunting. Most fortune for all of us there that day the principal saw the shooter before anything happened and confronted him in the hallway. The principal asked the kid where he was going with that rifle. The principal told the kid to hand over his gun. The kid said nothing but pointed the gun at the principal and shot him in the chest, killing the principal. (Witnessed by several of the office personnel.) The principal was in his early 30s and left behind his wife, several children and a baby on the way. Said principal was also a US Marine and no way in hell was he going to let anything happen to his students. The bravest of men he was. And he proved it.

We who were there and the official investigation figured the actions of the principal saved many lives that day. Although more students and teachers were shot that day and thankfully no more killed, the shooter running into the principal forcing the shooter out of his plan derailed the shooter and he panicked at that point, making his way through the school towards the lunchroom but never achieving it, instead finding an exit and running from the school. The shooter did shoot his way from the principal's office (the location of the principal's murder) taking shots at whomever he encountered in the hallways, wounding at least 2 other teachers and 2 students before leaving the building, where he ran through a field behind the school. He was found by police helicopter and arrested. Being 14 at the time the law had to charge him as a juvenile and he was released from prison at age 21. 

The shooter had 2 guns. He took them from his dad's gunsafe. He was able to do this as the parents were not home when the kid began his actions that day. (Kid had stayed home, planning and arrived at school just before lunch, possibly in hopes of catching all students in passing period.) There is much more to the story but the details are not needed here.

We grieved. We were shocked, angry, perplexed, horrified; our young minds tainted with the ugliness that can come from a disturbed mind. Those memories never fade.

We knew the kid. We knew he had issues of which I will not detail here. We discussed everything. We analyzed every action leading up to the shooter's breaking point. We over analyzed the school, the students, the culture, the hows and whys. You know what was not discussed? You know what didn't matter? The guns used. Why? Because that is disingenuous to the conversation. The true focus was everywhere else, because that is what mattered. We placed blame on the person. He was solely responsible for this. His actions. Not anything else.

You know what? This kid's profile was the exactly same as all the other disturbed individuals who have done this since then. Physical or mental abuse, lack of spirituality and morals, a fragile psyche, perceived societal abuse, who knows exactly what and how all his surrounding stimuli was processed and led him to this violence. It wasn't the inanimate objects in his dad's gunsafe though.

John, you posted a long list of schools that I assume have experienced some kind of (I hate to use this term...) "gun violence?". Is it your contention that a particular style of weapon was used in each one of these? Without spending vast amounts of time digging through all the particular details of each you've listed to verify this, I'd have to say if this is your point, you've erred. And the argument to ban something inanimate misses the point of all this carnage entirely.

Now for the media's drive to enact more gun control, they will never fail to use the red herring of the gun itself. Interesting to note, the Santa Fe HS shooting in 2018 quickly became a non media issue as soon as the media discovered the shooter used a pump shotgun to murder 10 people in school. Hmm. The gun did not fit their narrative. I'd also submit that the mass shooting at Pulse gay nightclub in Florida where 49 people were murdered became a non story as soon as the media discovered the shooter was a gay muslim. Again we see the media's narrative could not be maintained because the media only care about the story if all the details fit their political agenda. How's that for BS? People die and only half truths are told. So much for reliable journalism these days.

If you think more laws are the answer, that is fallacy. Murder is already unlawful yet that doesn't stop murder. Legislating against lawfully owned firearms does not solve anything.

Again what exactly are you proposing?


Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2022, 10:19:47 AM »
Cowntown,
 Bless your heart sir!!!!

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #25 on: Today at 05:38:07 PM »

Offline Dave T

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2022, 11:53:32 AM »
A friend sent me this this morning. I don't know who Harrison is but he has struck the nail upon the flat part.

"People demanding 'common sense' gun laws fail to realize the people they think will obey those laws don't use common sense. Besides, a society that believes 2+2=5 and that can no longer define what a woman is, may want to find something other than 'common sense' to make its case." —Darrell B. Harrison

Dave

Offline Buckaroo Lou

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2022, 06:39:37 PM »
Evil exists not in the gun but in the hearts of evil men.

We wonder what has changed from the time when we carried guns in the back windows of our pickups, never thinking of shooting anyone, to the current time of unthinkable mass shootings at elementary schools. Here is a 15-minute video that in my mind best explains what has happened and is happening. Some may scoff at this video, and you certainly have that right, but to my thinking it is spot on.

I hope I am not breaking the rules by posting it.

 
A man's true measure is found not in what he says but in what he does.

Offline DeaconKC

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2022, 08:03:55 PM »
No they're simply protecting themselves which millions of us do everyday. Not every teacher wants to be armed and no one is saying they HAVE TO! It's their choice! I know several teachers who would be more than happy to be able to carry on their job!
Look how they found the two teachers in there, they had shielded the kids with their own bodies. They should have had the chance to protect not only the kids, but themselves.
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Offline Cowtown

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #28 on: June 01, 2022, 06:43:45 PM »
Look how they found the two teachers in there, they had shielded the kids with their own bodies. They should have had the chance to protect not only the kids, but themselves.

Exactly. Too many people take the position that teachers will be mandated to be armed against their wishes. This is NOT the case. NO ONE has advocated this that I have heard. Only teachers who are willing to accept that responsibility and get the proper training will be encouraged to do so. Teachers, by nature of their chosen profession, are in the best position to protect and defend their students in case of an attack like this. This is not rocket science.

Arming our teachers is not the only answer, but part of the overall equation. Hardened security ingress/egress points, and armed pair of well trained non-Barney Fife types (in plain clothes please... not tactical gear as I've read suggested), security cameras, even better trained office staff... all of this makes the school safer for everyone.

Oh, what am I thinking? Just ban guns and all this stops.  >:(

Offline Froogal

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2022, 08:08:38 AM »
Exactly. Too many people take the position that teachers will be mandated to be armed against their wishes. This is NOT the case. NO ONE has advocated this that I have heard. Only teachers who are willing to accept that responsibility and get the proper training will be encouraged to do so. Teachers, by nature of their chosen profession, are in the best position to protect and defend their students in case of an attack like this. This is not rocket science.

Arming our teachers is not the only answer, but part of the overall equation. Hardened security ingress/egress points, and armed pair of well trained non-Barney Fife types (in plain clothes please... not tactical gear as I've read suggested), security cameras, even better trained office staff... all of this makes the school safer for everyone.

Oh, what am I thinking? Just ban guns and all this stops.  >:(

Many schools already have some very good security systems in place. Cameras, security fencing, etc., etc. But NONE of that  does any good when the gates are left standing open, the doors are left unlocked, and nobody is monitoring the security cameras.

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #30 on: Today at 05:38:07 PM »

Offline River City John

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2022, 09:42:43 AM »
I was attending the NCOWS National this past week and away from a computer. I had a great time and enjoyed the company of many good friends I've made within this sport. Decent people one and all, so I hope everyone understands I am not pointing a finger here and attacking gun owners.

I had the opportunity to talk in depth with my traveling buddy, whose common sense and general outlook on life I have the utmost respect and we often bounce views and opinions off each other in our attempt to solve all the world's issues.

First and foremost any solution starts with free, universal healthcare, with an emphasis on mental healthcare. Improve communication between all institutions or departments whose function involves assessment and identification of at risk individuals. Education, Medical, Law Enforcement and Judicial.
Pass H.R. 8 and fast track any similar bills that will undoubtedly be proposed before Congress.
Do we need to raise the legal age for military-type Black Guns purchasing to 21 as a deterrent? It won't stop someone from stealing their parents firearm, nor address the idiot parents who purchase one for their child because they're being bullied at school.

Rather than arming teachers, turn to professional security personnel. Also put school security, hospital security, church security under one umbrella of Homeland Security. Co-ordinate minimum requirements and training.

As to the proliferation of those Black Guns, right now any proposal to eliminate them is unrealistic.  Treat ownership of them the same as Class3 with annual $500.00 license fee combined with a voluntary buy-back program, with an eye to eventual sundowning?

Convince the media that depicting John Wick resolving all his problems with firearms is just as damaging and desensitizing as pornography addiction?

It won't be any one thing, but many small changes.  But we do need action.
So far three common denominators:
Mental health issue
Multiple capacity modern firearms AR-15 platform used
Locations where occurrences happen are low security where no one to oppose the shooter.






 

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Offline Froogal

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2022, 03:14:02 PM »
Restricting magazine capacity? Will the number of magazines you can carry also be restricted? An empty magazine can be changed out for a full magazine in what, 3 or 4 seconds?

Offline Abilene

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2022, 04:22:43 PM »
Restricting magazine capacity? Will the number of magazines you can carry also be restricted? An empty magazine can be changed out for a full magazine in what, 3 or 4 seconds?

They already tried that.  Ten round limit for ten years.  Made no difference in crime.  It just made "pre-ban" magazines really expensive during that time.

Offline Dave T

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2022, 04:41:56 PM »
I can't help but wonder how people can see the mess Leftist policies have made of this country in just 17 months and think the Left's gun control agenda will do anything but make crime and violence worse. But wait, it already has.

Dear God in Heaven, how I pray for this land and this Nation.

Dave

Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2022, 09:06:04 PM »
I was attending the NCOWS National this past week and away from a computer. I had a great time and enjoyed the company of many good friends I've made within this sport. Decent people one and all, so I hope everyone understands I am not pointing a finger here and attacking gun owners.

I had the opportunity to talk in depth with my traveling buddy, whose common sense and general outlook on life I have the utmost respect and we often bounce views and opinions off each other in our attempt to solve all the world's issues.

First and foremost any solution starts with free, universal healthcare, with an emphasis on mental healthcare. Improve communication between all institutions or departments whose function involves assessment and identification of at risk individuals. Education, Medical, Law Enforcement and Judicial.
Pass H.R. 8 and fast track any similar bills that will undoubtedly be proposed before Congress.
Do we need to raise the legal age for military-type Black Guns purchasing to 21 as a deterrent? It won't stop someone from stealing their parents firearm, nor address the idiot parents who purchase one for their child because they're being bullied at school.

Rather than arming teachers, turn to professional security personnel. Also put school security, hospital security, church security under one umbrella of Homeland Security. Co-ordinate minimum requirements and training.

As to the proliferation of those Black Guns, right now any proposal to eliminate them is unrealistic.  Treat ownership of them the same as Class3 with annual $500.00 license fee combined with a voluntary buy-back program, with an eye to eventual sundowning?

Convince the media that depicting John Wick resolving all his problems with firearms is just as damaging and desensitizing as pornography addiction?

It won't be any one thing, but many small changes.  But we do need action.
So far three common denominators:
Mental health issue
Multiple capacity modern firearms AR-15 platform used
Locations where occurrences happen are low security where no one to oppose the shooter.

OMG, here is the problem .  .  . 
  Mental institutions.  - taken away by the left
 AR platform rarely used  (mostly hand guns ) always the talking "platform" of choice by the left
All schools (you know, where children will be) deemed "gun free zones"  - made possible by Joe Biden and the left

One common factor  ---- the left

This is why History is definitely the most important subject for the survival of a nation .  .  .  especially a free one!!!
 
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Offline 45 Dragoon

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #35 on: June 02, 2022, 09:41:11 PM »
I know, maybe we could keep our guns in a centrally located facility and run get them when and if needed!!! Just for emergency's .  .     you know .  .  . 

We could hold Manufacturers at fault like we do Pharmaceuticals .  .  .  I mean Automobile Manu. .  .  .    never mind those , just gun Manufacturers.

Let's hold parents liable for gun deaths like we do for Automobile .  .  .    never mind .  .  .

Hey, let's send 40 Billion to a country to help fight a war  but let's keep our southern border open  and call all public schools "gun free zones" !!   

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Offline greyhawk

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2022, 05:00:27 AM »
When 19 cops stand in a Hall and allow kids to be shot by the maniac and the cops do nothing for 70 mins.!!  Kids screaming in terror, yelling for help and the Gubment does nothing!!!
 Yeah, let's give up the guns .  .  . really?? What are law abiding citizens supposed to do?? Just hand the socialists anything they demand??

Anybody know any of the 40 killed this past weekend in Chicago?  There tight gun control laws are working splendidly!!!

I'm sorry, punishing law abiding folks is NOT the answer.

Mike
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Offline Froogal

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2022, 07:47:45 AM »
A big part of the problem concerning mental issues can be blamed directly on the medical community. At least in my corner of the world, there are no longer any general practice medical doctors. Everybody is a specialist in some field or another, and cannot, or will not deal with any medical or mental issues other than the field they specialize in.

So if I have knee or hip problems, it is up to me to decide if I need to see a joint specialist, and if that doctor determines that he can't do anything for me, then that is the end of his responsibilities. He is done with me and won't dig any deeper to see if maybe it is all just in my head. Whereas a general practice doctor is trained to recognize potential mental illnesses and would then refer the patient to a mental specialist.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2022, 08:55:30 AM »

Of course, in the midst of all this shaming, let us remember the "Right" thinking nabobs know the eclipse of Sun and Moon are Leftist generated Socialist attempts to control the Universe.

Easy enough to point a "Right Thinking" finger.  Now, let's see an actual workable solution.

Just so's you all will understand, I firmly believe in the Second Amendment.  I also firmly believe "Gun Control" is a fool's errand.  And no, I don't have an answer either.

Offline River City John

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Re: It's Time.
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2022, 09:44:12 AM »
It's certain nothing will get done until we can do away with the "Us vs. Them" divisive mindset. We have to understand that we are all the same. We all want these mass shootings to end.

It is strange that we live in a society where pulling peanut butter off the shelves because it is a health hazard, or removing lettuce or spinach because of salmonella contamination, or automobile recalls for safety issues are universally accepted as necessary for the public's safety because the danger is understood. So why is it so difficult for us to have the same willingness to consider action when firearms are involved?

 


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"He who will not look backward with reverence, will not look forward with hope." - Edmund Burke
". . .freedom is not everything or the only thing, perhaps we will put that discovery behind us and comprehend, before it's too late, that without freedom all else is nothing."- G. Warren Nutter
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