Kirst Two Stage Hand

[Navy Six]

A couple of years ago I installed Kirst cylinders in a pair of newer Uberti 60 Armies. Everything went OK except for the hands being a bit short which always bothered me. I just saw where Kirst is offering a two stage hand(like a Colt SAA) to address this issue. I ordered, received and just installed the hands. First gun needed fitting as the hand was a bit long and a little material needed to be removed from the front tip of the top hand. I expected the second gun would require something similar but the darn hand virtually dropped in. The only issue is a fair amount of hammer over travel which didn't exist with the stock hands. To fix this, I plan to install action stops as described by Mike at Goons Gunworks where set screws are installed under the mainsprings. Unfortunately I have to order the taps and screws so will finish the job at that time. Overall I'm happy I did this.

[Coffinmaker]

   Navy 6 

Vellie Interestink!!  When building conversions with Kirst Konverters, I found it "Normal" for the Cylinder to stop just a hair short of Battery When Cocking Very Slowly.  When cocking at speed as in a match, the rotational momentum of the cylinder carried it up into battery and lock-up.

I am, however, quite intrigued by the New Kirst two step hand.  May well have to source ups couple for myself and see how they work out. 

Thanks for the nifty post.  Play Safe Out There

 

[Pettifogger]

Thanks for the heads up.  I have always hated the after market conversions with the one tooth hand as I did not like the inability to properly time the gun.  These look interesting.  I may order a couple and finish some 51s I converted years ago, hated, and put them in the closet.  Now I also see Howell is doing barrel lining at a reasonable price so my 51 Navy Londons may see some action after years of being closet queens.

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[Navy Six]

The other feature is the hands come with a wire spring. I measured it to be .030 and it feels pretty good.

[Coffinmaker]

   SIX 

How much fitting??

Play Safe Out There

[45 Dragoon]

Thanks for the heads up.  I have always hated the after market conversions with the one tooth hand as I did not like the inability to properly time the gun.  These look interesting.  I may order a couple and finish some 51s I converted years ago, hated, and put them in the closet.  Now I also see Howell is doing barrel lining at a reasonable price so my 51 Navy Londons may see some action after years of being closet queens.

I've resorted to stretching the sear in order to increase the cycle length to get correct timing. It's slightly delicate but definitely doable. Makes for a very nice action and feel.   I use Pietta Kirst's for Uberti revolvers for cartridge length.

Mike

[Navy Six]

Coffinmaker, in terms of fitting the first gun required some trial & error as the hand was long and the top hand projected too far into the cylinder's star and initially the cylinder would lock up before full cock. I had to remove some material from the top and front tip of the top hand. I work slow(hopefully carefully) so this took me a couple days.
The second gun was a breeze. It virtually dropped in. I did lightly polish both new hands before install but they really didn't need much.
As mentioned, both guns now exhibit hammer overtravel which I will shortly address. Also, the bolts now drop "early", they drop just about one full bolt heads width before the cylinders lead in. This is leaving a short drag mark. Since these are virtually new guns, I didn't think replacing the bolts would do much good. Especially since the second guns bolt and trigger drop at the same time and the first gun's bolt just fractionally before the trigger. It is my understanding this is how it should function so I will live with cylinder mark.

[Johnson Barr]

Just installed one in my Pietta 1860 with the Kirst gated back plate and 5 shot cylinder. First time I've ever enjoyed a true 'drop-in' part that actually work the first time with no dinkin' around. Cured the under rotation problem and greatly improved cylinder bolt lockup. Great product. Plan to swap it into several other of conversions to see if it will help solve lockup issues with those pistols as well.

[Navy Six]

Well, I just picked up my Pietta 44 Navy/Kirst conversion and realized the same issue as the Uberti's--slow cocking the unloaded gun reveals cylinder carry up/lock up is a trifle short. I know a loaded cylinder has more weight and the inertia, especially with normal cocking effort, will carry up the cylinder to full lock up. I also realize the hand can be "stretched" a bit. HOWEVER, I just can't live with a gun that isn't quite right. I participate in a lot of Cowboy matches and don't want to worry about the gun firing slightly out of battery. So I placed another order with Kirst for their two stage hand. They must be anticipating future orders as there were 66 hands alone available for the Pietta.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

I have a two stage hand from Kirst, but haven't installed it.  Both my 1860s are 99% without it.  It is the 1%, though, that bathers me....  I'll have to play with the two stage and see.

[Navy Six]

It's that 1% that bothered me too. I was afraid(unnecessary?) of a problem during a Cowboy match. I also reasoned that 1% would continue to increase with use and wear.

[Tuolumne Lawman]

On my 8 inch Saber River it has only happened once. The 3 inch though it happens once every five or six cylinders full. Probably fit it to the 3” Avenging Angel, since I will pair that with my Richardson Type II.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

On my 8 inch Saber River it has only happened once. The 3 inch though it happens once every five or six cylinders full. Probably fit it to the 3” Avenging Angel, since I will pair that with my Richardson Type II.

Is the problem under rotation of the cylinder so it doesn't lock up?

[Tuolumne Lawman]

Yep. The hand is designed to rotate 1/6 of a rotation instead of 1/5 for a Kirst. Sometimes it isn’t an issue  and it works fine like my Saber River. Sometimes not so much. 

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Thanks, I wondered about that. I put a conversion cylinder in an older Pietta "1851" in .44 cal. It didn't even drag much before the locking notch. They probably had the hand too long from the factory and that worked to my advantage.

[Coffinmaker]

   PLUS ONE for Toolumne Lawman 

All of the Kirst Converter conversions I have ever built have the same tiny problem.  This also included my own guns.  However!!  I found early on, the problem was only related to cocking the gun very slowly, where the cylinder doesn't build inertia.  Cocking the gun "smartly" rotated the cylinder fist enough to build sufficient inertia to carry the cylinder up into battery.

There is a drawback to attempting to "stretch" the hand.  If the hand is stretched for rotation into battery, I bolt will not withdraw early enough to allow the hand to rotate the cylinder.  The whole shebang just locks up water tight like a Frog's Butt.

I'm currently away on Mouse Safari, but when I return home I do plan to order a couple of Kirst Two Step hand for my own guns.  Even though I have not had a problem with the cylinder failing to carry up into battery, that tiny bit the cylinder doesn't rotate when slow cocking annoys me.

Play Safe Out There

[45 Dragoon]

Well, stretching of the hand is a necessary evil but for enough "cycle length" , the sear needs a touch of stretching as well if you want "perfect" (textbook) timing. It can be done. The locking notches are a little on the shallow side but that is being taken care of. .  .  . 

Mike

[Tuolumne Lawman]

ARGHHHH!  Tried to install the two stage hand in my Avenging Angel.,  First had to thin it to allow it to drop down and get under the ratchet on the cylinder.    Still binding and over-rotates.  It was one from the first run, so I asked Walt to send me a current one so I can see if it is better.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I installed one today. It worked without any modification at all. Smooth, buttery operation except if I hold the pistol lift side down, it hangs up. That happened on a hand I installed (not a two-stage hand) in the past and as I recall, the fix was to bend the hand slightly to hold the tip in against the arbor. I'll check on that before bending it any, of course.

So far, I'm totally impressed.

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I talked to Bill Kelly and he says that bending the hand is not a good solution with a two-stage hand. there is a bevel that needs to be put on the outside of both tips. I don't recall seeing that done to the hand I got so I'll have to take it out and double check that, adding the bevel if it isn't there.