Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
Special Interests - Groups & Societies => Frontier Iron => Topic started by: blackpowder on January 28, 2021, 11:47:13 AM
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Hi Everyone,
I recently acquired a S&W Model 3 Russian made by Uberti in Italy. A very solid and good quality weapon working flawlessly and reliably right out of the box (something that cannot be said for Uberti's blackpowder clones - they always seem to need more or less fitting to work smoothly). It also shoots to POA and to my surprise, all I had to do was clean off the generous amounts of preservation oil that they bathe their guns in before boxing and shipping.
The only drawback is the price of the ammo. As far as I know, only the Italian Co. Fiocchi makes .44 Russian and they are quite pricey. So I bought one box of 50 for the shells and reload them. Recently, however, I heard from at least one Person that you can shoot .44 Special cartridges without any problems. Checking the cartridge specs they are exactly identical except for case length - the .44 Spl has a slightly longer case.
Are there any comments on this and/or has anyone actually substituted one for the other? Does the .44Spl work in the Model 3 Russian?
Thanks for inputs :)
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The Russian also comes chambered in 45 Colt, so it would have no problem with the power of the 44 Spcl, however I don't know that the special will chamber. If you have some 44 Spcls, see if they will completely chamber in the cylinder. If so, you are good to go. Otherwise, you will have to stick with the Russians. Black Hills sells 44 Russian also (and also pricey), and I think there may be others. Starline sells the brass.
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I heard from at least one Person that you can shoot .44 Special cartridges without any problems.
Your source of opinion on this had it backwards. One can shoot 44 Russian ammunition in a 44 Special, much like one can shoot 44 Special ammunition in a 44 Magnum...or for that matter the 38 Special in a 357 Magnum. The shorter, parent case will work in the longer chamber. The reverse is not true.
If you try to force a 44 Special cartridge is the too short chamber of a 44 Russian revolver you could encounter excess pressure when the tight throat of the chamber restricts the too long case from releasing the bullet.
Even if you can chamber a 44 Special in your Russian I would advise against the practice.
YMMV,
Dave
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:) PLUS ONE for Dave T ;)
I second, your "one person" has it quite 'up-side-down." Or "Backwards" as it twer. It the chamber is actually "44 Russian" a 44 Special case is a NO-GO. Other way around is just fine and even recommended. Running 44 Russian in 44 Special chambers is an excellent method to reduce case volume for reduced charge. Or even loading BP and Subs for a little less oompah without resorting to fillers.
When testing your chambers, use only very light pressure when attempting to seat 44 Special cases and only test fit empty cases that DO NOT have a crimp. I have had several Uberti guns (Open Tops) in my shop, marked 44 Colt that chambers 44 Special without problem. In fact one set of Open Tops I owned were market 44 Colt and would chamber 44 Special. My current Chameleon Open Top set has 44 barrels that are marked 44-40. Uberti never made Open Tops in 44-40. Strange stuff comes out of Uberti from time to time.
Stay Safe Out There
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Since the Russian is not sold in 44 Spcl, to my knowledge, I doubt that Uberti bored the cylinder deep enough to chamber the Special, but they might have. In the case of Opentops and conversions, Uberti sold them chambered for 44 Russian only (some early ones, and so marked), 44 Colt, and 44 Special. Customers tended to want the guns to be marked 44 Colt or Russian because it sounded more old timey. So finally Uberti finally just started making all the cylinders 44 Special to simplify it, no matter which marking was on the barrel. And later they just marking them all 44 Spcl to simplify things. Howsomever, the Russian topbreak is a different animal. I still say if the gun will chamber them, meaning any 44 Spcl including an empty case, it will be perfectly fine to shoot.
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Since the Russian is not sold in 44 Spcl, to my knowledge, I doubt that Uberti bored the cylinder deep enough to chamber the Special, but they might have. In the case of Opentops and conversions, Uberti sold them chambered for 44 Russian only (some early ones, and so marked), 44 Colt, and 44 Special. Customers tended to want the guns to be marked 44 Colt or Russian because it sounded more old timey. So finally Uberti finally just started making all the cylinders 44 Special to simplify it, no matter which marking was on the barrel. And later they just marking them all 44 Spcl to simplify things. Howsomever, the Russian topbreak is a different animal. I still say if the gun will chamber them, meaning any 44 Spcl including an empty case, it will be perfectly fine to shoot.
The gun is a current 2020 Uberti production of the S&W Russian Mod.3 topbreak. I think If it chambers an empty .44 Spcl case, which would be at max length after being fired, it should be ok. If not, one could shorten the significantly cheaper .44spcl brass a bit and handload to modern .44spcl standards. New Ubertis are made with modern steel and should withstand the higher pressures of modern ammo.
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blackpowder,
I would suggest cutting the cases (.44 Special and/or .44 Mag.) down to .44 Russian case length.
You will then be sure you will have no problems as has been mentioned above.
I hope this helps?
My best,
Blair
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https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/526?
If you're gonna handload anyway, just get the brass. I have a Uberti #3 marked for Russian, and Special brass will not fit. Starline prices their Russian brass and Special brass the same.
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...one could shorten the significantly cheaper .44spcl brass a bit and handload to modern .44spcl standards.
If you want 44 Special performance then buy a 44 Special handgun. Don't try to make a 44 Russian into a 44 Special by over loading it. The shorter case loaded "to modern .44 Special standards" is problematical to say the least.
Dave
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If you want 44 Special performance then buy a 44 Special handgun. Don't try to make a 44 Russian into a 44 Special by over loading it. The shorter case loaded "to modern .44 Special standards" is problematical to say the least.
Dave
That makes the most sense , saves the time , labor if they have it in stock.
I acquired 700 pieces of new Starline and 500 255 grain BP lubed bullets when I bought my original 2nd model Russian.
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If you want 44 Special performance then buy a 44 Special handgun.
Absolutely right ! But I'm not looking to get .44 Spcl performance. I am handloading to .44 Russian specs. I am just looking for reasonably priced brass. In fact, a friend of mine can give me a shoebox filled with .44 Spcl brass for next to nothing. That's why I am wondering if I can/should use them to make cartridges for my mod. 3 Russian.
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Ah, now we see. Yes, get the brass, then cut it down to Russian spec. You will be fine.
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blackpoweder,
That is what I thought you were asking about in your Original Posting... which is why I suggested just cutting down the cases.
Fired Special and Mag. cases can be found at good prices, I have used them for years, and can be loaded with BP for use in original S&W's.
My best,
Blair
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@Blair,
Right. I will measure my chamber length and resize the .44Spcl cases as necessary. :)
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Cutting down special cases all the way to Russian size is likely to have a thicker case wall at the case mouth. Russian brass is not that expensive.
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1.16 to .97 I doubt he'll see much if any difference.
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I was always under the impression that the special was loaded to the same velocity as the Russian. The case was longer to accommodate smokeless powder. My Uberti Russian is chambered for the Special even though it’s marked .44 Russian.
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This is true to a point as far as performance. The case was longer to keep the specials from being loaded in the old top break Russians, as the pressure curve for smokeless is radically different from that of BP.
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....My Uberti Russian is chambered for the Special even though it’s marked .44 Russian.
You may have hit on a very interesting point here. Perhaps the guy who claimed to shoot regular factory .44Spcl ammo out of his No. 3 Russian, had just that - a Russian chambered in .44Spcl.....
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Well there you go. Uberti wouldn't have chambered it for the Special if they didn't want it to be used.
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What about the Uberti Schofield in .45 Colt? I shoot the Schofield cartridge because of the bigger rim. I wouldn’t be surprised if most people shoot the Colt cartridge. Also there is the disclaimer to shoot factory ammunition because handloads void the warranty.
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:) Just wade in again ;)
For those who contemplate cutting down 44 Special cases to 44 Russian length. YES!! There is a difference in case mouth thickness. That difference is academic. It makes no real noticeable difference unless you're crimping with an antique hand held loading tool.
Straight wall pistol cases WILL NOT obturate to seal the chamber whether 44 Russian or 44 Special. Cut down cases will not act any differently than original cases. One will still get Blow-By. Gonna happen. Trim away. However:
I'm lazy. I went through the "trimming" process making C45S length cases before the C45S was commercialized. Stone boring. Plus, it made one hell of a mess in Brass Szwarf. That stuff sticks to any fabric. Icky Foo. Ergo: Since the price of 44 Russian brass is same same as 44 Special, I'd (and I do) take the easy way out and just order up a pile of Russians. Send Starline a Czech and they send you Russians.
Burma Shave
People are Hazardous to yer Health
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A number of the early Uberti #3 Russians had Special chambers, kind of a Uberti thing in those years. Like they did not want to spend the money for Russian reamers, All the recent one's I've handled had the correct Russian chamber. Only way to know for sure is to measure.
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As to the S&W .45 Schofield cases in .45 Colt chambers; they will work in Uberti made Top Breaks but will not work in SAA's. Rim diameter issues. I use S&W .45 Schofield cases in my No.3 New Model Laramie for the same reason I use .38 Long Colt brass in my Colt clones marked for .38 S&W Special. Colts are Colts, Smith & Wesson's are Smith & Wesson's. Using the appropriate brass adds to the authenticity factor. That being said, S&W No.3 New Models were never chambered in .45 anything. Uberti in its many re-creations fails to use the correct cartridge chambering. So sad.
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.... Only way to know for sure is to measure.
...which is what I just did (kinda obvious - don't laugh. right?). And the chamber measures exactly 1.18 inches or 30mm, which is exactly the length of a .44Spcl case. So I can shoot .44 Russian or .44Spcl - That makes me happy! ;D
@Drydock: I just bought this Uberti new. So it must be from a new production batch, I would say no older than a couple of years. Not an old one.
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As to the S&W .45 Schofield cases in .45 Colt chambers; they will work in Uberti made Top Breaks but will not work in SAA's. Rim diameter issues....
Johnson, you may be thinking of Vaqueros (or the old ones, anyway, not sure about the new ones), some brands of Schofield brass would hang on the ratchet and folks would trim the ratchet a hair for them to fit. They fit fine in my .45 Model P's.
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:) PLUS ONE for Abilene ;)
Yepper!! Early on, in those Halcyon days of the original Vaquero, the Vaquero would not accept Schofield cases. The Hub of the Star was not scalloped as is/was the Star Hub on most, if not all, replicants. One had to file tasty little flats onto the hub at each chamber apex to clear the Schofield rim. Quick job, no big deal.
To date, I have not run into a modern manufacture replicant that would not accept Schofield cases. Even Howell Conversion cylinders as well Kirst will readily accept Schofield. That is not to say there can't be an "Oddball" cut to original Colt dimensions. Original SAA did not play well with Schofield cases. Hence the introduction of the .45 Government cartridge for the military.
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Yep, pears to have Special Chambers. Must be getting lazy at Uberti again! Now if you was an old snipe you would not have needed all this help! ;D
Y'know, just for funsies I went back and double checked my #3. Yep, .97" Russian chambers. Maybe that's why it's the only top break repro I've ever owned that works with Black Powder!
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Just give Cimarron a call; if you have the box it helps. Tell them what you want to know and give them the model number
, etc. info the the label. They can tell you if you can use .44 special ammo. Some of the newer models can shoot
.44 Russian, .44 Colt, and .44 Special. I'd press them as to exactly what brand, bullet weight, etc. for those .44 Special rounds.
Good luck.
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I have been shooting Magtechs .44 special cowboy action loads with the 240gn LFN bullets for quite some time now. Literally put hundreds of rounds through my Uberti without problems. They are loaded somewhat on the light side.
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Hello The Camp,
My Bis. Vaquero shoots schofields fine- it is 5years old, so not sure if this is germane to the question.
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In fact, a lot of these guns are indeed cut with .44Special chambers. Same for the 1860's and Open Tops marked .44Colt.
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My two Uberti No. 3 Americans are chambered .44 Special, and are marked ".44 Russian S&W Special"