Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L
CAS TOPICS => NCOWS => Topic started by: Will Ketchum on April 14, 2011, 10:40:37 AM
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Approved List- http://www.ncows.org/approved.html
Unapproved List- http://www.ncows.org/unapproved.html
Will Ketchum
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Thanks Will!
Here is a handy set of links to the NCOWS Approved and Not-Approved lists. These lists detail the firearms that have been reviewed and approved or not approved by the Congress. When in doubt, check it out.
Bob Dorian
NCOWS Judge
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One change should be made to the unapproved list. Last year a change was made to approve already approved banana-grip Webley revolvers, that do not have banana-grips. (does that make sense?) jt
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Okay, Here is another is-it-approved question.
I wrote in another thread that I am enamoured of the John Bodine .45-70 Pedersoli with its double triggers.
Since double triggers were only made ona a custom one-off basis on Remingtons, would a double trigger rifle be on the approved list by NCOWS/
I already have one rifle that is not approved by NCOWS .... Would I be better , as I said on the other thread, to buy a Pedersoli that has all the bells and whistles but no double trigger rig?
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WWE,
The double set triggers are OK. They were available in the NCOWS period. Go for it!
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And here I was thinkin' 'bout a single trigger so that I could compete with it ...
I just didn't want to have to beg/borrow/steal a Model 73 without a stroke kit 'cause I can't use the Codymatic I already bought with the stroke kit ... and then have to beg/borrow/or steal a Buffalo Rifle on top of the '73 ...
Two rifles to buy redundants for would be too many ... LOL
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Gents,
My apologies on this but I need to hijack your thread for a second, as it seems the site is not working for my computer the way it should, and I know Mr. Ellis will be keeping track of this post and will know to get in touch with me:
WaddWatsonEllis,
I have replied to your post in the classifieds, please get ahold of me at johnnyshoes@netzero.com Look forward to hearing from you.
Regards, John.
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John,
I think we are on track now .... so send me a PM if anything new pops up....
I sympathize with your computer problems ... I have always felt that there was a very good reason not to store guns coumputers, and ammo in the same room ... *G*
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For those NCOWS members who share details for the approved and unapproved listing...
I learned yesterday that my Uberti Hombre was not NCOWS legal, but I see nothing on the unapproved list. The addition of this firearm to that listing would be quite helpful for those of us who are new to NCOWS.
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For those NCOWS members who share details for the approved and unapproved listing...
I learned yesterday that my Uberti Hombre was not NCOWS legal, but I see nothing on the unapproved list. The addition of this firearm to that listing would be quite helpful for those of us who are new to NCOWS.
Hi
Is there any reason given as to WHY it's illegal? I looked it up, and it looks like a plain (very plain) SAA to me. If it's the Matt finish, then is the Chisholm illegal too?
Later
Mike
Wichita KS
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The matte finish is the reason.... The Hombre & the Chisholm, Just as the USFA Rodeo Matte is not approved finish.
All of these can be aged finished and be made to pass muster for NCOWS.
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In an effort to keep things simple, NCOWS tries not to over-legislate. When looking at a revolver and it's "not on the list", ask yourself: did this weapon in my hand exist 1865 to 1899? If you don't know, hit the books or post a question here.
Did a brushed or matte or satin metallic finish exist back then? Not that I can locate. Gold plate, silver plate, French grey, nickel, bluing (a variety, all shiny) and 'in the white' are all documented.
Our general firearm covenant states:
No modern (post 1899) firearms will be allowed unless they are authentic reproductions of traditional firearms or very markedly resemble traditional firearms. Traditional firearms are defined as those manufactured prior to or during the era 1865-1899 and in documented use on the North American Frontier within that time period. Center-fire calibers may substitute for original rim-fire calibers in reproduction firearms. Reproduction firearms chambered in calibers not utilized in original models shall be allowed as long as such calibers are original to the period or are otherwise approved by the National Congress of Old West Shootists.
One of the important facets of NCOWS is our "look". One of our goals at every match is to look around and not see anything that looks like the 20th (or 21st) century.
Do we scrutinize each other: yes. (in a friendly manner & mostly amongst the established or veteran members.). The scrutiny is held to a higher standard at "big matches".
I for one enjoy the scrutiny. It usually evolves into a lively discussion where we all learn something new. I like that.
And, if you think your item (matte finish in this case) should be authorized, prepare some historic documentation of your claim and approach our Authenticity Committee.
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It was not just the matte finish (which I can easily remove) but the brass backstrap. That one has me puzzled.
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It was not just the matte finish (which I can easily remove) but the brass backstrap. That one has me puzzled.
Colt SAA's were never produced by Colt with brass grip frames. You see them in movies a lot, but they did not exist. See RL Wilson's big Colt book for reference.
Colt dropped the production of brass grip backstraps before the start of the Civil War. By the time the SAA came to be, all factory frames were iron.
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It was not just the matte finish (which I can easily remove) but the brass backstrap. That one has me puzzled.
Also easily replaced ;)
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Hi
PERSONALLY, I'd like to be able to shoot a matt gun, but I understand NCOWS traditional approach, so I'd leave it alone. What I don't understand is why a company would bother to try and sell a a non-authentic reproduction firearm. I guess that they're making money on them or it wouldn't be there.
Later Y'all
Mike
Wichita KS
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MIke:
I think you pretty much answered your own question -- it's always about the $$$$.
Keep in mind that "cowboy shooters" are really a small part of the overall firearms market.
And NCOWS is only a small part of that small part. Manufacturers would probably go broke if they depended on NCOWS for their sales. SASS has no such restrictions and is many times larger that we are. They represent a much bigger share of the pie than we do.
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Thanks guys for the advice. Will gladly get mine up to NCOWS rules as it will make for a fun weekend project. But for the benefit of new members learning their way, it would be helpful to include hints about issues such as mine on the lists. It could be the difference in keeping a new shooter interested in NCOWS.
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I have always hated all these combinations of guns, the supposedly Confederate models that never existed, etc,etc.
In the short time I've shot NCOWS I've already seen several guys buy some of these "guns that never existed" when starting to shoot and find out they are not legal. Problem is so many "actually most" gun dealers don't know themselves nor do they know the rules of various shooting groups and they will mislead customers just to sell something. Gun dealers not aware of anything but SASS and hollywood will also talk them into other models with modification that are not legal.
Always do your homework and if your not sure ask someone that knows before buying.
Generally with handguns if it has a brass frame do some homework before buying it for NCOWS use.
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I have always hated all these combinations of guns, the supposedly Confederate models that never existed, etc,etc.
In the short time I've shot NCOWS I've already seen several guys buy some of these "guns that never existed" when starting to shoot and find out they are not legal. Problem is so many "actually most" gun dealers don't know themselves nor do they know the rules of various shooting groups and they will mislead customers just to sell something. Gun dealers not aware of anything but SASS and hollywood will also talk them into other models with modification that are not legal.
Always do your homework and if your not sure ask someone that knows before buying.
Generally with handguns if it has a brass frame do some homework before buying it for NCOWS use.
So I'm guessing my replica of an 1864 CH Rigdon revolver would be allowed?
I notice that Lightning rifles are on the approved list; but the AWAs are not specifically mentioned - yea or nay?
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee
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So I'm guessing my replica of an 1864 CH Rigdon revolver would be allowed?
I notice that Lightning rifles are on the approved list; but the AWAs are not specifically mentioned - yea or nay?
Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee
Fingers, I think the problem here is really that the list did not incorporate all the "Lightning" rifles that were manufactured as replicas. The Perdersoli is not listed, either. Neither is the Uberti. But I doubt seriously that anyone would say nay to one. As long as they are faithful to the original design (not much you can do to change that actually) an are in approved calibers, go for it.
As for the Leech & Rigdon, I have used mine before. It existed. The only real problem with the Uberti is that they produce it with the Colt style cylinder scene, rather than smooth. Even so, I don't really think there is a problem with it. Two years ago, there was a motion that went to Congress to form a list of BP revolvers approved and disapproved. Basically, the list would be so long that it got tabled. The main idea here on the BP revolver is to stay away from the patently non-existent (historically) ones out there like the 44 Caliber 51 Navy and the brass frame Colt and Remington replicas. Yes, there were some like the Spiller & Burr and the Griswold & Gunnison that were brass frame originally. Those would surely be allowed. But Colt did not make brass frame revolvers.
An interesting idea - one could form a pretty darn correct L&R from a Pietta 1851 Navy and a Pietta G&G. Barrel and cylinder from the G&G on the frame of the the 51, it would look right.
I use a Pietta G&G some, but the first thing I did when I got it was strip the bluing off the steel parts to make it look more like a real one. As I understand it, they were made of unfinished twisted iron on a brass frame because the Confederates had a serious steel shortage.
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Thanks for the reply Tom. My Rigdons are faithful recreations of the 1864 Model CH Rigdon Augusta revolvers complete with smooth cylinders that have 12 bolt stop cuts instead of the normal 6. They have been completely defarbed and remarked to replicate the originals. Uberti did make L&Rs with smooth unengraved cylinders, you just gotta luck on them sometimes. Mine were originally made in 1977 and 2007
My remakes
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/DSCN0493.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/DSCN0498.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/DSCN0499.jpg)
an original
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/AugustaRevolver2.jpg)
(http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c86/fingersmcgee/AugustaRevolver1.jpg)
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VERY nice, Fingers!
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Hi
Based on what I see in this thread, but not in the NCOWS disapproved list, I should be shooting .45 Long Colt in my SAA. SASS really pushes .38 Special in many of their threads and pages. Actually to be REALLY authentic, I should be shooting .44/40 in both SAA and '73 Winchester. .38 Special wasn't introduced until 1898. Do I have to shoot .45 Long Colt or is it just more Period Correct?
Later
Mike
Norman OK
Brand new member of OKC Gun Club as of December 1, 2012
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Hi
Based on what I see in this thread, but not in the NCOWS disapproved list, I should be shooting .45 Long Colt in my SAA. SASS really pushes .38 Special in many of their threads and pages. Actually to be REALLY authentic, I should be shooting .44/40 in both SAA and '73 Winchester. .38 Special wasn't introduced until 1898. Do I have to shoot .45 Long Colt or is it just more Period Correct?
Later
Mike
Norman OK
Brand new member of OKC Gun Club as of December 1, 2012
Mike, actually you can shoot any of the approved calibers in any of your guns. There are those that like to try to match caliber to year and firearms, but you can shoot anything listed in the approved list. According to the Tally Book (http://www.ncows.org/2012tally-book.pdf (http://www.ncows.org/2012tally-book.pdf))
Approved calibers and loads include any that were introduced prior to or during the period of 1865-1899 and that were originally introduced as a black powder load. Common examples include but are not limited to: .22 rimfire, .32-20 WCF, .32 S&W Short, .32 S&W Long, .38-40 WCF, .44-40 WCF, .44 S&W American, .44 S&W Russian, .45 Long Colt, .45 S&W, .45-70 Government. Any cartridge designation that was not originally introduced as a black powder load will not be allowed except for appropriate firearms in the smokeless cartridge division only, or for specifically-designated shooting events. .38 Special/.357 Magnum and .44 Special/.44 Magnum cartridges will be allowed if loaded with black powder or with smokeless powder to black powder velocities.
Bottom line, shoot what you have or want as long as it is not a modern caliber. If you want to shoot 45 Colt, go for it. If you want to shoot 38 Spl, well it is more economical. Me, I just like a big boom, so don't often shoot 38 caliber guns. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with it.
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Colt SAA's were never produced by Colt with brass grip frames. You see them in movies a lot, but they did not exist. See RL Wilson's big Colt book for reference.
Colt dropped the production of brass grip backstraps before the start of the Civil War. By the time the SAA came to be, all factory frames were iron.
Probably gonna shoot myself in the foot but would that include the 1872 open top Navy grip? Mine has a brass backstrap ??? :-\
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I don't think so at all. There is plenty of evidence that the navy grip, in brass, existed on the Open Tops. Here are some photos of serial number 54 and 351 that I found. Both have brass frames. They just were not using them on the SAA from 1873 on.
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Ok makes me feel better, I'm in the process of learning how to reverse a short stroke kit on a 1873
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I fear the links are broken?
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I fear the links are broken?
The web page was revised recently. Try these links.
Approved List: http://www.ncows.org/govern/approved.html (http://www.ncows.org/govern/approved.html)
Unapproved List: http://www.ncows.org/govern/unapproved.html (http://www.ncows.org/govern/unapproved.html)
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Hello I have checked both the NCOWS Approved and Unapproved Lists, but I just wanted to double check before making a purchase. So here is the question; is the Cimarron Man With No Name conversion revolver approved for use in NCOWS?
Thanks
Cable
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Ed , here is the straight poop...
By name ? no it is not on the approved list ,
However, the following line is a direct cut & paste from that Approved list.
Conversion Models distributed by Cimarron, Navy Arms, & others.
Now the fact that the MWNN is replica if a Movie Prop, may have some with opinions as to it's legality ...the fact remains it is a Conversion Model by Uberti imported/distributed by Cimarron and others ... and is there for is Grandfathered in.
If you have one use it ,
if not and the MWNN is not something you just must have (snake grip and all.)
I suggest a 51 Navy Richards conversion.
Roger Ragland National Judge
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Major, thank you for the quick response and clear answer to my question. Much appreciated.
Cable
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Your quite welcome :)
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The following are the pistols that I own and use for SASS. Are they legal for NCOWS (45 colt)?
http://www.cabelas.com/product/F-LLI-Pietta-1873-SA-Revolvers/1293546.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dpietta%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=pietta&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products (http://www.cabelas.com/product/F-LLI-Pietta-1873-SA-Revolvers/1293546.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch.cmd%3Fform_state%3DsearchForm%26N%3D0%26fsch%3Dtrue%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Dpietta%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts&Ntt=pietta&WTz_l=Header%3BSearch-All+Products)
F LLI Pietta 1873 SA Revolvers (4-3/4" barrel, matte finish)
Thanks
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The wording in the description on the website you provided states....
"A faithful re-creation of the venerable 1873 Colt Single-Action Army revolver..."
when in fact it is not , And here lies the rub .... the guns finish is it the culprit...
The matte finish weather Millennium matte nickel or Millennium matte blue is NOT approved.
Though polished Nickel or blue is ....
There are workarounds, there is no one in my estimation in NCOWS that would slam a door to someone wishing to shoot NCOWS.
To that end, NCOWS offers a one (1) Year moratorium , for one to get his kit approved... Approved guns or clothing.
Attend a posse event and work toward that goal.
There several tutorials on bringing the "matte finish" to a state where it would be acceptable.
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The wording in the description on the website you provided states....
"A faithful re-creation of the venerable 1873 Colt Single-Action Army revolver..."
when in fact it is not , And here lies the rub .... the guns finish is it the culprit...
The matte finish weather Millennium matte nickel or Millennium matte blue is NOT approved.
Though polished Nickel or blue is ....
There are workarounds, there is no one in my estimation in NCOWS that would slam a door to someone wishing to shoot NCOWS.
To that end, NCOWS offers a one (1) Year moratorium , for one to get his kit approved... Approved guns or clothing.
Attend a posse event and work toward that goal.
There several tutorials on bringing the "matte finish" to a state where it would be acceptable.
I was afraid of that. I liked that finish too. Oh well. Maybe I can try a few matches this year anyway. Thanks for the info
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Stirrup,
in addition, the 1873 was not produced with a brass grip frame and trigger guard. (Scroll up just a bit to the top of this page and you'll see that question has come up before.)
That being said, The Blue River Regulators would welcome you with open arms! If I remember, the idea of a one year grace period to get your arms and gear correct is not officially written anywhere in NCOWS national policy, just a tradition. Although The Blue River Regulators have incorporated it into stated policy on our club by-laws.
Once you start shooting with us, you're going to see so many ideas and combinations of gear and firearms that it'll make you giddy. Oft times, club members are the best source for finding good deals on "field tested" firearms and gear. It's a given, once you get bitten everyone seems to always be turning the inventory.
You mentioned being close to us as far as a drive. I'm about an hour away, and many of our members drive the distance regularly. Some up to a 2 1/2 hour drive.
Hope to see you.
RCJ
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Stirrup
I urge you to visit the Blue River Regulators, attend one or more of their shoots.
You will have a great time
I offer the link to the Tally Book, John Ingram's tutorial within will help you greatly.
http://www.ncows.org/resources/pdfs/2013tally_book.pdf
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Stirrup,
in addition, the 1873 was not produced with a brass grip frame and trigger guard. (Scroll up just a bit to the top of this page and you'll see that question has come up before.)
That being said, The Blue River Regulators would welcome you with open arms! If I remember, the idea of a one year grace period to get your arms and gear correct is not officially written anywhere in NCOWS national policy, just a tradition. Although The Blue River Regulators have incorporated it into stated policy on our club by-laws.
Once you start shooting with us, you're going to see so many ideas and combinations of gear and firearms that it'll make you giddy. Oft times, club members are the best source for finding good deals on "field tested" firearms and gear. It's a given, once you get bitten everyone seems to always be turning the inventory.
You mentioned being close to us as far as a drive. I'm about an hour away, and many of our members drive the distance regularly. Some up to a 2 1/2 hour drive.
Hope to see you.
RCJ
Thanks for your kindness in the one year moratorium. I look forward to shooting with you guys if I can get over, and even though my pistol isn't approved to start with, it will give me a chance to see what approved guns I might like that are in my price range so I can be legal as soon as I can swing it, instead of being forced to just rush out and buy something blind so I can shoot with you guys. From what I am reading, my rifle is okay, so I just need to fix my pistol situation once I get started with you guys.
Have a wonderful Christmas!
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Thanks for your kindness in the one year moratorium. I look forward to shooting with you guys if I can get over, and even though my pistol isn't approved to start with, it will give me a chance to see what approved guns I might like that are in my price range so I can be legal as soon as I can swing it, instead of being forced to just rush out and buy something blind so I can shoot with you guys. From what I am reading, my rifle is okay, so I just need to fix my pistol situation once I get started with you guys.
Have a wonderful Christmas!
Stirrup:
A few other items you will want to avoid for NCOWS matches:
1). No "buscadero" drop leg holsters. While these are seen in lots of movies, Hollywood made them up. They didn't exist in the Old West.
2). 2-shot cups for holding shotshells. Most SASS shooters use these. They didn't exist in the Old West.
3). Leather slides for holding ammo on your belt.
Our goal is to try and look as close to the real deal as we can (based on research).
Take a gander at my home club web site. Our local posse judge did a great piece on authenticity for the new NCOWS shooter.
http://www.bergersharpshooters.com/Authenticity___Links.html
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The brass framed 'Navy Grip' 1872 Open Top first appeared in Colt's catalog of 1872. Specifically referred to as: 'Navy Six Shot Revolving Pistol'. Oddly enough the illustration wood cut shows a Richards-Mason on the cover. Go figure.
Also it is important to read the rules carefully as only belt slides for shotgun shells are not allowed. An example of period correct cartridge slide would be the M1874 Hazen Loop Slide. This leather loop slide had a short military life between the belt worn cartridge box and the Mills Co. canvas cartridge belt. As handy as the Hazen slide was that peculiar chemical effect between brass cartridges and leather, 'the green crud', gave the Hazen a short field life until the Mills Co. belts came under contract.
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That being said, The Blue River Regulators would welcome you with open arms! If I remember, the idea of a one year grace period to get your arms and gear correct is not officially written anywhere in NCOWS national policy, just a tradition. Although The Blue River Regulators have incorporated it into stated policy on our club by-laws.
RCJ
Actually, it was formally introduced in By-Law 1-1 in 2010:
1-1. Any responsible person, 18 years of age or over, may become a full member of this organization after application and payment of the usual initiation fee and/or dues. Membership shall not be denied because of sex, age, religion, race, national origin or physical handicap.
NCOWS truly represents the period which it embraces. We recognize that this was a time when a man's word was his bond. It is our philosophy that this honor system is much preferable to legislation whenever possible. When an individual professes the desire to join our organization and participate in NCOWS events, local clubs work with new members, help them get their kit together and allow up to a year at the local or “posse” level to achieve “Level 1” authenticity as described by Marlan Ingram’s “Three Levels of Authenticity” attached elsewhere in these bylaws. Participation at Regional or National events requires full adherence to NCOWS standards and bylaws regardless of membership duration. (Amended March, 2010)
The one year is a really good addition, since not everyone is able to just jump in all at once.
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Howdy!
New to the NCOWS game, long time SASS shooter. My question is why is the Winchester made by Miroku on the un approved list? Is it because of the Tang safety, or something else.
Thanks,
MoonShine
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Howdy!
New to the NCOWS game, long time SASS shooter. My question is why is the Winchester made by Miroku on the un approved list? Is it because of the Tang safety, or something else.
Thanks,
MoonShine
It’s because the new design of the Miroku has a factory designed in short stroke. Same with the Miroku 1866. Same action.
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It’s because the new design of the Miroku has a factory designed in short stroke. Same with the Miroku 1866. Same action.
Thank you. Didn't know that.
MS
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The Unapproved and Approved lists will not open. I get error 404.
So I'm asking....Are the Ruger Bisley Vaqueros approved or not?
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Not, I believe.
Since 2006.
RCJ
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Not, I believe.
Since 2006.
RCJ
Okay, I was just checking to see if they ever got approved.
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The links in the first page of this topic are old and need to be replaced. The links on NCOWS.Com are fine.
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The Ruger Bisley is a semi copy of Elmer Keith's #4 not a Colt Bisley, therefore it will probably never be approved.
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The links to the NCOWS Approved and Unapproved Lists at the beginning of this topic are now working.
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Hello the fire ....
I have a question on shotguns I don't see addressed here. I have 2 Model Winchester model 1897 shoguns with 20" barrels. I don't see anything in the approved or unapproved list in reference to barrel length.
While can't prove it just off the top of my head I'm guessing in the 1800's barrels were shortened as a matter of convenience to fit the situation.
Thanks
MS
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Hello the fire ....
I have a question on shotguns I don't see addressed here. I have 2 Model Winchester model 1897 shoguns with 20" barrels. I don't see anything in the approved or unapproved list in reference to barrel length.
While can't prove it just off the top of my head I'm guessing in the 1800's barrels were shortened as a matter of convenience to fit the situation.
Thanks
MS
Any federally legal barrel length is fine.
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Thank you OklaTom
MS
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Hello, new to NCOWS and trying to navigate the rules. Wife wants her own irons, and likes this look. I get the matte finish restriction, but what about this antique finish, that looks like a well worn nickel plated gun? Are these legal, or does she need shiny blue or nickel/chrome finish? Thanks! https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/cattleman-5-5-357mag-antique-tuned-rc1-555100de.html
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Hello, new to NCOWS and trying to navigate the rules. Wife wants her own irons, and likes this look. I get the matte finish restriction, but what about this antique finish, that looks like a well worn nickel plated gun? Are these legal, or does she need shiny blue or nickel/chrome finish? Thanks! https://www.taylorsfirearms.com/cattleman-5-5-357mag-antique-tuned-rc1-555100de.html
In the strictest definition of the word anachronistic, the “antique” finish is a bit. By that I mean that a firearm purchased in the 19th century would still look pretty new, perhaps with some holster wear in the period we try for (1865 to 1899). However, since it is legal for people to shoot original firearms that have not been refinished, I see no real difference in those and the “antique” finish on new production. In my opinion, as Judge for NCOWS, I say if that is what she (or you) like, use it. I have a couple myself, including the prototype of the Cimarron @Rooster Shooter”.
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Thanks. And I agree, it’s probably a little TOO antique patina, but a working, daily carry 1873 would probably look pretty rough by 1880. So honesty probably not TOO far off, for some arms. Probably more realistic than super shiny blue and chrome most have anyway, I can’t imagine many looked like that after a couple years on the trail. Just didn’t want yo spend money on a gun just to get turned away on the technicality.