Author Topic: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?  (Read 3623 times)

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2020, 03:59:29 AM »
Thanks for the link to the book!

For my pathetic attempt at a .38 ish conversion, I used a drill press, a 3/8 bit , and turned the backside down with a bastard file .
I left the thing as larger a diameter as possible as I feared I would not have enough to engage the hand! I think I still have it
( my gawd it's been since 1977 ) if I can find it I will post a photo of said abomination.

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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2020, 03:37:29 PM »

 :)  Ah Yes, Mia Amigoes   ;)

Couple of interesting and not too expensive options.  Suggestion # 1)  Start with a Uberti Richards/Mason .44 Conversion.  Have the cylinder throats reamed completely out.  Replace the the Barrel with a Uberti Richards/Mason .45 Barrel.  Load the beast with 44 Russian brass and heal based bullets.

Suggestion # 2)  Start with a Uberti Open Top in .44 Special/Colt/Russian.  Same same, ream out the cylinder throats.  Toss the 44 barrel and replace with a Uberti Open Top 45 Barrel.  Also load this beast with 44 Russian brass and heal based bullets.

One could also probably use 44 Colt brass, I just haven't measured.  It is a simple method to arrive at a nearly almost but not quite authentic reproduction.

The CAVEAT:  First things first.  FIRST correct the abysmal Barrel to Arbor fit.

Live Long and Prosper (Stol'd Famous Movie Line)

Offline Black River Smith

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2020, 04:03:57 PM »
Adding to what Coffinmaker stated above.

The best and cheapest way to do it would be to buy the 45Colt Richards Type II or the Richards/Mason (which ever design you like) then buy a 44Spec cylinder and ream it all the way through.  Then load with 44Colts Starline and heel based bullets.  It as close to original Second Model as we can get.  Then if you get tired of the firearm you still can sell the 45Colt intact and through away the unsafe 44 bored cylinder.

If you do it Coffinmaker's way you could not sell an intact firearm.  Just have a bunch of parts.

Thought about the same thing after I received my Richard Type II in 44Spec in 2018.  Darn it - to late.  But I am happy having the option of loading any of the 44 Series (44Rus/44Colt/44Spec) shells in this firearm.
Black River Smith

Offline AntiqueSledMan

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2020, 06:55:44 AM »
The Richards Mason Conversions were new made cylinders,
ratchet teeth needed to be relocated to in-between the chambers.
The percussion cylinders had the ratchet teeth located on center of chamber.
The plans to convert an 1851 are posted on the home gunsmith forum,
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/iB_html/uploads/post-94-54002-1851_Colt_Cartridge_Converson.pdf

AntiqueSledMan.

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2020, 10:20:37 AM »

 :)  BR SMITH   ;)

You certainly can.  With the Richards/Mason, since you have added a .45 Barrel and still have your .44 Barrel, just fit a new .44 Cylinder.

With the Open Top, Same same.  You still have your OEM .44 barrel laying around so just fit up a new 44 Cylinder and in both cases, swap the barrels back to OEM.

Or:  Fit up .45 Cylinders.  Either of those choices results in a complete, functioning gun for sale.  Or Trade.  Or just to play with as .45s

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #25 on: Today at 08:19:01 AM »

Offline Black River Smith

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2020, 12:13:44 PM »
Cofinmaker,
Please note I said the 'cheapest way' is what I proposed.  Buy the firearm at ~$600 and an additional cylinder at ~$137 additional cost.

Your proposal is buy the firearm at ~$600 then buy an extra barrel at ~$150 and then a replacement cylinder at ~$137.  Your additional cost is ~ another $290.  Mine is only the ~$137.

In both situations that bored cylinder is a loss.

Also my way lets anyone fire 2 calibers not just one.  Just by changing the working cylinders back and forth.
Black River Smith

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2020, 05:45:04 PM »

BRS

We're going around in a circle.  Your talking about most frugal (quote the Professor) and I am disputing you can't sell a complete gun.  You can.  I never mentioned frugal.

Grin.  Makes 'em wonder what yer up too   ;D

Offline SPJ

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2020, 01:53:35 PM »
The Richards Mason Conversions were new made cylinders,
ratchet teeth needed to be relocated to in-between the chambers.
The percussion cylinders had the ratchet teeth located on center of chamber.
The plans to convert an 1851 are posted on the home gunsmith forum,
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/iB_html/uploads/post-94-54002-1851_Colt_Cartridge_Converson.pdf

AntiqueSledMan.

Thank you, that is a beautiful. Do you know how the measurements of the plate thickness and cylinder length of this conversion compare to mass market option available today like the Kirst and R&D for the 1851?

Also, it seems to me after some more reading that maybe the best option to get 6 rounds in a colt 1860 conversion would be to do a recreation of a long cylinder conversion, of a conversion in to an 1871-72 open top conversion. Which would include machining off the rest of the watertable of the revolver frame on an 1860 so as to allow a cylinder with an OD of 1.6" along it's whole length. Then for historical accuracy's sake you could recreate the ballistics of a 44 Henry in a 45 Colt or Schofield case as I know others have done like on InRangeTV.



This seems like the best solution to me since the biggest issue in converting the 1860 is the smaller OD in the rear of the cylinder, and that the average OD in 45 conversions like the Remington New Army and Open Top is approx. 1.6"

https://1858remington.com/index.php?topic=8530.0;nowap

https://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=33638.0

Offline SPJ

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2020, 01:54:48 PM »
Open Top Cylinder Dimensions

Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2020, 03:50:22 PM »

 :)  SPJ   ;)

Not quite.  The original COLT guns, be they 1860 or Open Top were NOT converted to 45 Colt.  Cylinder is just too small.  The Colt guns of the day, were chambered in 44 Colt.  44 Colt was not a .44  the 44 Colt was loaded with a heel base bullet to fill the 1860 45 Bore (which wasn't really 45) and the Open Top was similar, chambering 44 Henry Flat or 44 Stetson.  Outside lube heel base bullets.

I'm trying hard to figure out what you're trying to accomplish.  Trying to get 6 rounds in Colt pattern 1851 or 1860 frames just isn't mechanically sensible.  Were you to fully rebate the water table, you would also have to alter ALL of the parts of Lock Works.  So WHY are you so determined to try and do something that is completely impractical.

If what you desire is something comparable to 19th century Ballistics/Performance and to be able to shoot the same cartridge in Rifle and handguns, there are much better and more practical ways to accomplish it.  Select ANY of the Toggle Link lever rifles, add a Smith Shop short cartridge Carrier Block and away you go.  You can run Cowboy 45 Special cases in any of the Toggle Link rifles so modified.  Then run the same cartridge in any of the commercially .45 chambered Conversions or the Open Top.  Or, same carrier, in an 1866 or 1873 chambered for 44 Special and just run 44 Russian cases.  Same same with 44 Special conversions and Open Top.

Or.  Are you just determined to try and do something the most difficult and expensive way possible??  Regardless, you not going to get 6 45 Colt cartridges in a period dimension cylinder.  Unless of course, you really do want it to blow up in your Hand??

Hide and Watch

PS:  Can I have the Peanut and Popcorn concession for the attempt??

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #30 on: Today at 08:19:01 AM »

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2020, 04:41:32 PM »
Thanks for the link, SledMan

Those ancient Anvil Enterprise drawings are the closest any will find for "conversion plans" .
Most guys with machine tools and superhuman capabilities "just wing it" and I don't know of any who bothered to document
paper plans for mere mortals.

A long time ago, before fotobucket jumped the shark I did download a series of fotos a gent took documenting his
successsful effort o n an 1860. He did machine the watertable flat... it seems there is just barely enough material,
and i cannot recall the caliber.

I will try to
- find the fotos
- upload the fotos to a free (did I mention I am frugal?) service and
- post the link if/when I am succesfull

at the very least, this thread is highly entertaining...

yhs
prof marvel
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Offline SPJ

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2020, 05:43:09 PM »
:)  SPJ   ;)

Not quite.  The original COLT guns, be they 1860 or Open Top were NOT converted to 45 Colt.  Cylinder is just too small.  The Colt guns of the day, were chambered in 44 Colt.  44 Colt was not a .44  the 44 Colt was loaded with a heel base bullet to fill the 1860 45 Bore (which wasn't really 45) and the Open Top was similar, chambering 44 Henry Flat or 44 Stetson.  Outside lube heel base bullets.

I'm trying hard to figure out what you're trying to accomplish.  Trying to get 6 rounds in Colt pattern 1851 or 1860 frames just isn't mechanically sensible.  Were you to fully rebate the water table, you would also have to alter ALL of the parts of Lock Works.  So WHY are you so determined to try and do something that is completely impractical.

If what you desire is something comparable to 19th century Ballistics/Performance and to be able to shoot the same cartridge in Rifle and handguns, there are much better and more practical ways to accomplish it.  Select ANY of the Toggle Link lever rifles, add a Smith Shop short cartridge Carrier Block and away you go.  You can run Cowboy 45 Special cases in any of the Toggle Link rifles so modified.  Then run the same cartridge in any of the commercially .45 chambered Conversions or the Open Top.  Or, same carrier, in an 1866 or 1873 chambered for 44 Special and just run 44 Russian cases.  Same same with 44 Special conversions and Open Top.

Or.  Are you just determined to try and do something the most difficult and expensive way possible??  Regardless, you not going to get 6 45 Colt cartridges in a period dimension cylinder.  Unless of course, you really do want it to blow up in your Hand??

Hide and Watch

PS:  Can I have the Peanut and Popcorn concession for the attempt??

I was afraid that milling the watertable for a cylinder big enough would cut into the recess for the cylinder stop. Its too bad that all these issues with the 45 Colt case would apply to 44 Special too due to their having about the same rim diameter. As I learned from that link I posted to an older thread, I now know that the factory made Open Top replica's allow a larger cylinder by having the arbor higher on the frame. So they are not as historically accurate as my anal retentiveness would like. I am not afraid of doing things the hard way, but with the insight of the others here I will now accept that I cannot have a 6 shot 1860 conversion without having a custom cylinder made along with custom cartridge cases with shorter rims, or BP loaded rimless cases like for 45 acp or 45 Win Magnum.  :'( Oh well, life is full of disappointments, but it may make a fun challenge when I have the resources. Conversions for rimless ammo should be an option since it seems like the best solution. Howell even made 45 acp conversions for the Remington, but only in 5 shots. Most likely so people can use full pressure smokeless rounds. It would be nice to see an option in a 6 round rimless cylinder one day, for those willing to load the cases with BP

Thanks for the link, SledMan

Those ancient Anvil Enterprise drawings are the closest any will find for "conversion plans" .
Most guys with machine tools and superhuman capabilities "just wing it" and I don't know of any who bothered to document
paper plans for mere mortals.

A long time ago, before fotobucket jumped the shark I did download a series of fotos a gent took documenting his
successsful effort o n an 1860. He did machine the watertable flat... it seems there is just barely enough material,
and i cannot recall the caliber.

I will try to
- find the fotos
- upload the fotos to a free (did I mention I am frugal?) service and
- post the link if/when I am succesfull

at the very least, this thread is highly entertaining...

yhs
prof marvel

A thanks from me to Sledman again. A recourse like this is something I would die for. I am worried about the cylinder gap if I made the parts to specification though. Not sure if I would best remedy that with a thicker conversion ring, or with a modification to the wedge holding the barrel to the arbor. Please post those photos if you can. I would love to see them. Thank you

Offline SPJ

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2020, 09:19:42 PM »
The Richards Mason Conversions were new made cylinders,
ratchet teeth needed to be relocated to in-between the chambers.
The percussion cylinders had the ratchet teeth located on center of chamber.
The plans to convert an 1851 are posted on the home gunsmith forum,
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/iB_html/uploads/post-94-54002-1851_Colt_Cartridge_Converson.pdf

AntiqueSledMan.

Since you shared that let me share dimensions I photocopied from my copy of the Pitman Notes Volume 2

Offline SPJ

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2020, 09:25:03 PM »
2nd

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2020, 02:28:23 AM »
My Appologies, it turns out the author was converting an 1851 and an 1861 - I finally found the link, here
http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=3;t=17231;st=0
but the photos are missing.

yhs
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Offline AntiqueSledMan

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2020, 07:33:18 AM »
Hello Professor,

I saved as a PDF, unfortunately it's to large to post. Yes they were converted to 38 Long Colt's.

I also was obsessed with the 44 Colt Conversion but after studying the issues, I have come up with the only way to do so is with a "New Manufactured Cylinder". In an 1860, there is no way a percussion cylinder can be converted to 44 Colt.
The only way one could do it is either a 5 Shot or a Long Cylinder conversion, both of which would need New Cylinders.

Unfortunately SPJ refuses to understand that the ratchet teeth need to be relocated to between the chambers.
On a 36 Caliber one might be able to get away with leaving them on center as was the percussion cylinder.
At this point I would say to SPJ, go ahead and chuck up your 1860 cylinder, turn it down to allow the cartridge
to fit. When you realize you have ruined your cylinder, post pictures so nobody else does the same.

AntiqueSledMan.

Offline SPJ

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2020, 01:38:19 PM »
Hello Professor,

I saved as a PDF, unfortunately it's to large to post. Yes they were converted to 38 Long Colt's.

I also was obsessed with the 44 Colt Conversion but after studying the issues, I have come up with the only way to do so is with a "New Manufactured Cylinder". In an 1860, there is no way a percussion cylinder can be converted to 44 Colt.
The only way one could do it is either a 5 Shot or a Long Cylinder conversion, both of which would need New Cylinders.

Unfortunately SPJ refuses to understand that the ratchet teeth need to be relocated to between the chambers.
On a 36 Caliber one might be able to get away with leaving them on center as was the percussion cylinder.
At this point I would say to SPJ, go ahead and chuck up your 1860 cylinder, turn it down to allow the cartridge
to fit. When you realize you have ruined your cylinder, post pictures so nobody else does the same.

AntiqueSledMan.

I'm sorry for the miscommunication. I know that the ratchet teeth need to be relocated, and I figured that I would need a newly made cylinder for things to work properly. That's why I was posting measurements, to best figure out what dimensions of a new cylinder would work. I'm sorry for implying I thought otherwise, and thank you again for your help. I would like to see the PDF, could you possibly post screenshots of the pages? Or could you email it if I gave you my address?

Offline Professor Marvel

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2020, 03:22:43 PM »
I managed to copy the fotos quite a while ago, and was able to upload them to the wayback machine.
try this, it came up as a slide show
https://archive.org/details/483904-big

this fellow did quite a lot of work, including cutting the frame and the cylinder "ratchets" .

hope this helps
prf mavl
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Offline Coffinmaker

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2020, 07:20:29 PM »

 :)  See There   ;)

Easy Peasy.  Nuthin too it.  Just swap out a couple parts, some simple machining and . . . . DONE!!

Anybody should be able to do it!!  Right??  Yea Right!!!

Let us also remember.  Uberti does NOT convert Percussion Guns.  Uberti conversions are purpose built to mime conversions from scratch.  As we have all been pointing out, Uberti Conversions are also oversize also from scratch.  Fun Stuff it is.

Offline AntiqueSledMan

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Re: Why are there no conversions options in .44 Caliber?
« Reply #39 on: July 21, 2020, 08:27:22 AM »
Hello SPG,

I did have plans to build a 5 Shot Cylinder in 44 Colt, I just didn't have time before retirement.
Here is a rough drawing what I intended to do. My plan was to make it a 10 notch like on the Howell's.
Another option might be like this guy did with an 1858 cylinder, it would be very tight but possible.
One or two cylinders would probably end up in the scrap barrel.

AntiqueSledMan.

 

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